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Recommendations for Digital Security Systems? 235

An Anonymous Coward asks: "My company has an ailing analog security system, (you know the types: 16 position multi-plexer etc, 24hour VHS tape, and so on). We're in the market for a 21st century solution, and was hunting around for a computer/hard drive solution, being able to store up to 8 weeks of video, from 8am to 10pm, 7 days a week at multiple frame rates (up to 30, but we'll settle for 3 to 5 frames per second, with motion detection...) and preferably at a resolution where you can tell if that's a nose on the persons face or not!" It's a reasonable enough question. Just for fun, how difficult would it be to build such a system using consumer-level-off-the-shelf parts?

"Some of the ones we're looking at have in the order of 480gb of storage. Windows or Linux based, it does not matter, but the ability to schedule recordings, export the pictures (water-marking for possible criminal and court proceedings...), backup options to dat/cd-r/dvd-r, always on, ability to view previous footage AND record live from multiple camera's (8/16 or better), possible remote network access, motion recording, and ability to use both digital or analog cameras (significant previous investment in these, would like to re-use the colour newer models...) and newer digital higher resolution camera's are some of the features I would like. Any ideas from the very knowledgeable Slashdot crew?"

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Recommendations for Digital Security Systems?

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 31, 2002 @05:57PM (#2933841)
    As an added bonus, you can spy on your female coworkers. At least that's what the popups say.
    • Any person with half a brain would stay FAR away from any product advertised with shiny graphics and javascript popup/popunder crud thats almost as bad as spam.
      • Don't forget [slashdot.org] that it was not so long ago [slashdot.org] that Slashdot was very excited [slashdot.org] about X10 products [slashdot.org]. I consider them assholes now, less because of pop-unders (which were at least an innovation in advertising, less annoying than a lot of other methods of web advertising) but because they really seem to want to exploit the loneliness/horniness of geeks and encourage behavior that's almost universally considered immoral.

        But being assholes doesn't imply the uselessness of their product, right? I can understand if you won't support them for moral reasons, but don't condemn their products' technical merits because of the company's behavior.
  • by augros ( 513862 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:00PM (#2933866)
    a security guard!
    • by plover ( 150551 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @10:23PM (#2935201) Homepage Journal
      At all of our high-risk locations, and most of our other locations, we use a digital recording system made by Loronix. It scales well, we have some buildings with dozens of cameras feeding into the system and some with hundreds. They can accept both analog and/or digital camera inputs to each recording unit. Keeping some of our older analog cameras preserved quite a bit of investment; saving not only the cost of new cameras but saving the installation costs (which are actually higher than the camera costs in some locations!)

      I recall either 8 or 16 cameras per rack-mounted machine, but I imagine they've gotten bigger / better / faster in the last five years. A higher number of simultaneous inputs reduces the frame rates, so we chose the maximum number of inputs that could give us the frame rates we desired (3.5 frames/sec, I think.)

      They have digital tape jukeboxes parked next to the racks, and even our largest site keeps at least 90 days of video.

      They provide client software that allows us to remotely access the video stream via our internal network, and they modified their system to include a SQL database of a journal of the accompanying financial transactions being performed. They identify each computer with a camera, and upon request deliver this journal synchronized with the video stream. We also have some public safety cameras feeding the system that are not tied to the transaction system.

      It's elegant for the investigators, who are non-techies. They have search capabilities on that data, and can speed right to the relevant transactions. They can also simply click a button and burn a CD with the selected video stream and it even comes with the required digitally-signed proprietary viewer.

      Another thing it has that you maybe haven't yet considered is that their company has experts who will testify in court on our behalf that their system is valid, and that the images haven't been tampered with. We have used their imagery as evidence in many successful prosecutions. IANAL, but having a built-in Trusted Third Party strikes me as a strong benefit.

      So, with a wonderful system like this, what are the drawbacks? Money, plain and simple. You have to be willing to invest money (and people) to get a top notch system, but the cost-avoidance was definitely worth it for us.

      Oh, and before anyone goes off about Big Brother, you should know that the transactions we are recording are financial in nature, and cash is involved. The computers are ours, and the users know they are being recorded. Just that knowledge provides a huge fraud deterrent. We honestly much prefer deterring theft up front than prosecuting our own employees after the fact. And armed with this system, we have no problem prosecuting thieves.

      Disclaimer: I do not have any financial investment in Loronix, I am just a very satisfied customer.

    • Unfortunately if power is cut to the 'security guard' software, with current technology the data is irretrievable (unlike hard drive technology). Experience indicates that the two systems complement each other quite well.

      Phillip.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:00PM (#2933870)
    note to self: break in between 10pm and 8am.
  • dangers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by .sig ( 180877 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:01PM (#2933871)
    One problem that you have to watch out for with digital security systems is random glitches. Sure, it doesn't happen too often, but when it does it can be a real hassle.

    At the company I work for, our security system one day decided to change all the codes, so nobody could get in or out of the building. It turns out that something triggered a complet reset, erasing everything and restoring the default settings.

    It's funny now, we all laugh about it, but craving a smoke while locked inside can be very stressful. I don't know how many times I was tempted to break a window and escape....

    • Fire Codes (Score:2, Insightful)

      by dave3138 ( 528919 )
      I thought there were building/fire codes that exist where you cannot be locked into a building. Think Triangle Shirtwaist Fire [yale.edu]
      • Re:Fire Codes (Score:4, Informative)

        by Myrv ( 305480 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:27PM (#2934044)

        You are allowed to be locked into a building until someone pulls a fire alarm. Many of the doors at my old University had magnetic locks that would open if the power failed or the fire alarm went off.
    • If you have a security system that actually locks you in the building, lighting up would be about the last thing to do! I didn't think that sort of thing was allowed by building codes, these days (or any days since the Triangle Fire, for that matter)?
    • Re:dangers (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Gyyr has been in the time-lapsed video surveillance business since the 70's. They have a QNX-based DVR/16 channel multiplexer systems for a while now. It's QNX-based --- so rock solid as hell. Banks and casinos use these professional equipments.

      http://www.silent-witness.com/

      Forget about Tivo's and other consumer dvr's --- most of them are based on linux so they crash more often than QNX/vxworks-based systems. Also you are paying a lot of money on useless things like on-screen tv guide/vcr plus royalties.
    • Re:dangers (Score:4, Funny)

      by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @07:14PM (#2934349) Homepage
      next time this happens, light up inside, set off the smoke detector and all doors unlock.
      dont tell me they dont, because by law they have to, no matter where in the US it is... other countries? they could care less about your personal safety, so it might just do nothing but make loud noises.

      NOTE: i learned this first hand... when trying to get beck in the locked office, my boss said, "watch this" started hot-boxing his cigar and blowing it in the mail slot.... smoke alarm went off and the doors unlocked. he calmly opened the door and called the alarm company to let them know it was a false alarm.
      • Re:dangers (Score:3, Funny)

        by blazin ( 119416 )
        my boss said, "watch this" started hot-boxing his cigar and blowing it in the mail slot

        Hot-boxing the cigar? That sounds like part of what Clinton got in trouble for...
      • Re:dangers (Score:3, Funny)

        by Dwonis ( 52652 )
        next time this happens, light up inside, set off the smoke detector and all doors unlock.

        Or, use your brain and quit smoking!

  • 1TB Array (Score:4, Insightful)

    by topside420 ( 530370 ) <topside@to[ ]de.org ['psi' in gap]> on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:02PM (#2933877) Homepage
    Why not use that 1TB Array [slashdot.org] for only $5k? This would be quite ideal for storing mass data such as that. Also, you could have almost any quality you would like, with great performance.
  • We did it cheap... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by eaddict ( 148006 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:02PM (#2933885)
    we wanted to catch a change-stealing thief. We bought a buch of alaris weecams off of eBay ($25 and under) and set them up. We didn't bother with motion sensors. The images didn't take up a lot of drive space and the software (webcam32) we used created AVI files for the time lapse. It worked well too - the bonehead looked at one of the cameras up close after he cleaned out a drawer. We had taped over the little light showing it was on and had the monitors off on the PCs. Nice picture. You could probably do it more advanced on the fly (add cameras and drive space as needed) for under capital expense (our company requires God to sign if anything is over $500).
    • If you did want motion detection you could get HomeWatcher [homewatcher.com]. It's Windows only but it works real well. Even uploads to a remote server using FTP so you can still catch a crook even if he steals the computer.
    • Any $25 webcam is actually worthless. I have two Logitech QuickCam Express cammeras. They were $25 and the video the put out is--horrible. it is so grainy that motion detection would always consider it a moving shot. The only way you can get decent picture quality with them is to shine an EXTREMELY bright light in the direction the cammera is facing. And pretty much every cheap webcam uses the same video reciever. Don't buy a cheap webcam. It is just not worth it.
  • Get yourself a bunch of HDD based TV recorders. Upsize the HDD's and hook them to the existing system.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Or you can Biggie Size it, it's a better deal that way and you get 20% more fries.
  • by jasno ( 124830 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:03PM (#2933889) Journal
    I've been thinking of setting up a similar system at my house. It seems simple to throw together a computer controlled video switch, a video digitizer (Bt848?) card, and some cheap CCD cameras.

    The motion detection software is commonly available and could be used to drop the frame rate to almost nothing in areas without a lot of traffic.

    I'd also like to set up a periodic uploading of the pictures to an off site server in case someone were to steal the computer taking the pictures... :)
  • computernerd (Score:4, Informative)

    by Perdo ( 151843 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:03PM (#2933891) Homepage Journal
    I"m sure these guys [computernerd.com] could help. Still in Dev so you could prolly get it fairly cheap and insure that they incorporated the exact features you want.
  • Could you imagine a Beowulf cluster of Tivos?

    On a more serious note, a similar question [slashdot.org] was asked some time ago, however on a much larger scale. Some of the suggestions posted in the comments might be relevant to your case.

  • Try this out... (Score:1, Redundant)

    by gillbates ( 106458 )
    Try out this link. [slashdot.org]

    It's a one terabyte disk array for under $5k. This should get you started.

  • worked for me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by UnderAttack ( 311872 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:04PM (#2933902) Homepage
    I had my camera and cable modem up for a day when I caught this image [homepc.org]
    the story is here [homepc.org]
  • by sulli ( 195030 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:05PM (#2933907) Journal
    What, you didn't click on the 100 X10 popups you got each day?

    • 100 X10? Wouldn't that be 1000?
    • I can't even remember the last time I saw one one those. But then again, I've been using Mozilla and/or Konqueror for a long time, and I have those annoying popus turned off.

      This functionality works better on Mozilla because it only turns off popups that happen when pages load, not *all* popups. Some sites use popup links, and Konq breaks that....

      -Vic
  • or is every other ask slashdot about "What should I take in college?" or "I need to build a security systems help..." ?
  • I think what you are talking about is surveillance, not security.
  • Do it yourself? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ArcticChicken ( 172915 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:05PM (#2933912)
    I'm not sure how hard it would be to put something like that together yourself, but I can offer one suggestion in case you decide to try.

    National Control Devices has been offering a video switcher [controlanything.com] for a few years now that will handle up to video 16 inputs, for only $150. It looks really impressive. I've been considering getting one for ages, just to play around with. It's controllable through an RS232 serial port.
  • by J.D. Hogg ( 545364 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:10PM (#2933940) Homepage
    Get an Axis camera [axis.com]

    Their network cams use multipart jpegs over HTTP. You can simply save off the growing jpeg file on a disk, or you can also set the camera to automatically upload a incrementally-numbered file onto an FTP server every n seconds, or you can write a small script that'll pull the file from HTTP every n seconds ...

    What's more, you can also use third-party free software such as VNCCam [sourceforge.net] that will allow you to customize and view your camera's display over VNC.

    That's what I use for an indoors security solution : I have one of these cameras bolted on a ceiling (it comes with the hardware) of a room that has expensive equipment. For indoor use, these little cameras work great, they're reliable, they only cost between $500 and $1000, and they're a no-brainer to get going. However, if you plan on outdoors security, an Axis camera is definitely not what you want.

    My EUR 0.03.

    • However, if you plan on outdoors security, an Axis camera is definitely not what you want.

      Actually, you can buy outdoor enclosures and mounting systems like the ones from Pelco [pelco.com] for the Axis cameras. If you don't want to do it yourself, there are many retailers who build complete packages of cameras, enclosures, and accessories.

      Also, ThinkGeek sells the Axis 2100 [thinkgeek.com] and the Axis 2120 [thinkgeek.com]. And to make it even cooler, the cameras run Linux [axis.com].

  • I recall seeing a software project on freshmeat for detecting motion from video sources, but I can't remember the name of it. If you want to use a seperate motion sensor, it's quite simple to wire one up to the parallel port (there's a phrack article on parallel port interfacing that has all the info you need).
  • by Anonymous Coward
    jwz is trying to do 24/7 streaming video(plus audio it seems) at his nightclub...

    check it out: DNA Lounge tools [dnalounge.com]

    also of interest: DNA Lounge: Video Webcast [dnalounge.com]
  • Slashdot Revisited (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Havokmon ( 89874 ) <rick@h[ ]kmon.com ['avo' in gap]> on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:12PM (#2933955) Homepage Journal
    This was asked a while ago .. [slashdot.org] I'm sure the consensus that I felt was expressed will be the same: go analog.
  • by stripes ( 3681 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:14PM (#2933962) Homepage Journal

    If you build it yourself you have to prove that you didn't tamper with the evidence (should you ever charge someone with a crime based on the recordings...or fire them and then they contest it).

    If someone else builds it a large part of their business plan is how they defend the thing in court. Plus that is something they would pay for.

    That's not to say a system you make yourself is significantly more prone to tampering, but it is likely to be perceived as such (esp. if you build one for your home).

    • If you build it yourself you have to prove that you didn't tamper with the evidence (should you ever charge someone with a crime based on the recordings...or fire them and then they contest it).
      The way the pros (I was one) validate the evidence is to have a time and date timestamp generator directly on the video source. The courts have held that the clock makes the evidence less tamperable.

      Of course, these days if the "video tape" was an .MPEG file it would be a no-brainer to change the numbers with an editor like Photoshop.
      • Of course, these days if the "video tape" was an .MPEG file it would be a no-brainer to change the numbers with an editor like Photoshop.

        That is pretty much exactly what I was thinking...except I had a small perl script an pnmtext in mind (plus pnm-some-other-stuff), but that's because I have the script for some time lapse stuff I did last year..or maybe two years ago.

        Er, not just I, but I did do the time stamping part, a friend did a lot of other stuff, including building a box for one of the cameras...and having the good idea of making a video of the building they were making just outside our office window...

  • Visilinx (Score:5, Informative)

    by alienswede ( 555661 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:14PM (#2933964)
    The company I work for sells a complete remote management solution for the convenience store industry that does all the things described in the original post.

    It also interfaces with point of sale systems, captures images at predefined events (such as NO SALE's or lottery winnings etc). It does timelapse video with retention as far back as 13 months. It does sales reporting as well as many other reports.

    I could go into more detail but I'll just direct you to the website.

    http://www.visilinx.com

    Check it out...

  • Off the shelf parts. (Score:4, Informative)

    by Restil ( 31903 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:17PM (#2933979) Homepage
    RCA capable capture cards (winTV and others with the BT848) are about $25 now. All you need then
    is practically any security camera. If you don't
    mind investing in a card for each camera, multiplexing becomes trivial. Since they're PCI,
    4-5 per computer is as good as you're going to get, but you can use low end pentium systems for the capturing easily enough.

    Then you can do several frame captures per second easily enough if you want to store frames, or you can do realtime mpeg encoding. At 5 fps, with full color/sound, you're talking a little under 100 megs an hour per source when recording at 320x240. And this is without scaling down the quality any.

    -Restil
    • Sounds like it will work great, until the criminal unplugs your Linux Server.
      • quick, somebody break out the duct tape!
      • That's why you upload one frame every 30 seconds to your webserver.

        Switching video inputs on a bt848 doesn't work so well anyhow, it takes the card 200ms or more to sync the new signal so for four cameras you're limited to about 1 frame per second.

        On my crappy overloaded p233 I can manage about 6 frames per minute at 640x480 from 4 cams after I timestamp, jpeg compress and archive them. Good enough for me considering that I don't really own anything valuable. Plus I scale down and upload every third frame here [themall.co.nz] because I'm a cam geek.

    • by Kode ( 171317 )
      Products that are turnkey already exist and would be FAR more reliable than some kludge. So get a off the shelf solution that is designed to do exactly what you want. Here are two units that I have seen and know to be pretty damn dependable and have been around for a few years. I hazard to guess both have been used as evidence in the courts by now.

      Panasonic WJ-HD500AV - Digital Hard Drive Recorder with Built-in 16 CH Multiplexer
      here's a link: http://cctv.panasonic.com/showcase.asp

      Sony HSR2
      here's a link: http://bpgprod.sel.sony.com/bpcnav/app/99999/16/11 6/58243.10001.product.BPC.html

      Both units provide built in 16 camera multiplexor with the record/live monitoring features, water marking, schedules, motion detection, etc.

      Afer getting a good recorder you probably also will want to get decent camera's that are appropriate for your lighting conditions, or get better lighting. It's hard to say which is more cost effective but having good images is the point of the whole exercise and 'doing it cheap' could be as effective as not doing it at all.

      I would point out that the two recorder's are merely two that I have hands on experience with and from companies that have been around in CCTV for some time. These two are by no means the only choices, as some others have posted, there are a number of choices for equipment designed specifically to meet your needs and are well worth the price.
  • by warpSpeed ( 67927 ) <slashdot@fredcom.com> on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:18PM (#2933984) Homepage Journal
    Check out Patapsco Designs, they make a product called datacatch. I've been to their site and seen the product, it rocks! You can tie it into a cash register system too to track transactions as they happen.

    (Plus they are using embedded Linux for thier newer camera-network interface)

    http://www.patapsco.com/pdi/featured_product.htm l

    or

    http://www.digitaldatacatch.com

    ~Sean
    • With the Visilinx [visilinx.com] Product I mentioned above you can also watch live transactions as they happen. A separate window on the side of the video window will display exactly what is being printed on the actual receipt in the store.

      All of this data is being sent back to an Oracle database in our data center and is later used when the client wants to do sales reporting or analysis.

      We can currently connect up to 16 Cameras and 6 registers at each location. You can also control PTZ (Pan/Tilt/Zoom) cameras and monitor gas pumps etc.

      Time lapse video is constantly being archived for however many cameras are in the location. You can then seek back to a specific date and time and play back video from that time for all cameras or a specific camera of your choice. Saturation, Contrast and brightness can all be controlled from the web interface to expose details that may not immediately be seen. When you are watching the archived video you can also at any time pull up the transactions that were occuring at that point in time and see the actual receipt contents.

      Really cool stuff...

      http://www.visilinx.com [visilinx.com]

  • I've created a very simple security system for my home computer, mind you it's probably not exactly what your looking for, but it does the job.

    I started off with a Logitech QuickCam. The camera I had was of horrible quality, but enough to make out whats going on. Next I downloaded the SDK from Logitechs website and within 30 minutes or so, read up on their documentation for the SDK and created a very very simple security system program.

    Esentailly all it did was monitor the camera using a built in function in the SDK for movment, once X amount of moment was detected over Y amount of time, the camera switched on and started filming until the movment stopped for a specied amount of time. The files were avi files stored on the local hard drive, and didn't take up much space at all. Now I would suppose you want a much higher quality system, so go out and buy a bit nice digital camera. At 5-10 fps you can fit quite a bit of compressed video on a computer. The only downside was that it performed very poorly in the dark.
  • by 2Bits ( 167227 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:21PM (#2934014)
    What is your budget? A shoe string or a budget that would allow you to build an Exodus-like data center?

    I'm actually thinking of wiring my house for security too. This is what I'm looking at:

    - A bunch of motion sensors, installed at all entry points (actually, pointing to the entry point), including windows and fireplace.
    - A few micro camera, pointing to those entry points (I can save a few cameras, if I figure out how to control the head of the camera from the computer)
    - An old computer (P166) with a large HD.
    - A few cron tasks to activate the system, when we are not at home, or activate only certain areas while we are sleeping.
    - Motion sensor signals are sent to the computer for processing.
    - Cameras are controlled by computer remotely.
    - In order to save disk space, the cameras are activated and start taking video, only when a motion signal is received by the computer. Cameras are turned off 3 hours after last motion signal.

    I'm also considering to have 802.11b on my palm, so I can remotely de/activate the system.

    I haven't done the total cost estimate yet. But a motion sensor cost around $29, an 80GB HD around $250. Camera's price varies, depends on whether you want b/w or color. I think the wiring part is going to be the most expensive, as I'm no electician.

    • Panasonic sells a web camera (e.g. just plug the ethernet cable in) that can be had for around $350 which includes pan (~120 degrees) and tilt (~90 degrees). It also allows you to wite in up to four "detectors", such as latches, buttons, motion sensors, etc.

      Just search google for "panasonic web camera".
  • by myelin42 ( 458935 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:22PM (#2934017)
    From the start, is it feasible to store to HDD?

    8am to 10pm is 14 hours/day. That's 14 * 3600 = 50400 seconds/day.
    8 weeks * 7 days = 56 days storage required.
    56 days * 50400 secs = 2,822,400 seconds storage
    at 30 frames/sec, or 30 * 2822400 = 84,672,000 frames total storage.

    A 100Gb hard disk stores 100*10^9 bytes (NB: not 100*2^30). Divide that by the number of frames:

    100*10^9 / 84672000 = 1181 bytes per frame. This seems a little low, although I'm not sure exactly how much you can compress the data. DVD -> DivX compresses about 10x...

    A DivX movie uses about 200 megs/hour, so if you want that quality, you'd go through 160 Gb in 56 days. That doesn't sound too bad, because you don't need DivX quality -- if you push the compression up a bit (and the quality down a bit) you should be able to fit 56 days of fairly good data in 80 Gb.

    This could be reasonable. If you want 8 or 16 cameras, multiply that by 8 or 16 -- 640-1280 Gb total storage, so 4-8 of the new Maxtor 160Gb drives will keep you going nicely.

    I think I'm obliged to link to the $5K terabyte disk array [slashdot.org] now, but that's not really such a big thing -- if you've got 2 free IDE channels (buy a new controller card if required, they're cheap), you can plug 4 160Gb drives into the PC that's running the thing. Don't worry about RAID if you don't want to, just plug in the drives and set the software to swap drives when one gets full.
    • Don't worry about RAID if you don't want to

      that is, unless you give a shit about what you're recording. something about the use of the word security in conjunction with camera leads me to believe you might, however.

      if you're not using RAID, you're gamlbing with your data. it's very unlikely, but I've had two drives (in an array) fail catastrophically in the period of 1 hour. at 50-100gb/drive, without RAID, that's a lot of lost data.
  • by reverse flow reactor ( 316530 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:22PM (#2934018)
    Don't forget to answer the question "Is this system admissible in court"?. VHS tapes may be ancient technology, but chances are, a judge in court will know more about how your tape based system works that that system you made from freshmeat tarballs.

    Nothing against open source, but the integrity of the video has to be proven in court or the guy who stole those laptops walks.

    • Two issues for legal evidence:
      1. Is the data honest? Mostly this is a matter of someone testifying that they are certain that nothing has been altered. But technology can certainly help with this. Ideally the cameras would put a digital signature on every frame they take, but that may not be available. Failing that have a box under lock and key which provides a secure timestamping service to the rest of the network.
      2. Is the data correct? This is the issue that someone mentioned with JPEG compression. Whilst I'm no expert I would think that as long as the image doesn't have obtrusive compression artifacts you will be OK. With luck you will get several images of a criminal, so a claim that the image compression had messed up their features consistently several times will fall flat. Where admissability becomes a serious issue is where image enhancement techniques are used to try to pull information out of low-res noise.

      Paul.

  • One parameter you haven't given us is: How much activity does the area experience? This is critical to determine the degree of video compression possible.

    If you are securing a room that people rarely enter, MPEG compression will see one frame as very similar to the previous frame, and record very little information for the frame.

    Also, a feature you may not have thought of, if an alarm is triggered, the recording should go into overdrive, and record high resolution colour at 30fps. There's no excuse for the grainy out-of-focus stop-start security camera images we see on the news!

  • Note that, at 1.5Mbps ("Basic" quality on a TiVo), 8 weeks of 30fps video (14 hours per day, 7 days per week), comes out to about 400GB, per camera. That's 3.2/6.4TB for 8/16 cameras, which is a lot more than the either the 480GB solution mentioned above, or the 1TB array mentioned here in other comments. Even at 3fps, 16 cameras together will require 640GB.
  • 21st Century Systems (Score:2, Interesting)

    by MrSkunk ( 544767 )
    It seems that since Sept. 11, the issue of security systems in offices has become a pretty hot topic. The place where I work is now looking into some pretty neat digital systems.

    Like traditional systems, these systems pretty much record 24/7 whatever is going on. However, most of this data is useless. Unlike in traditional systems, all the data is not stored. The system can analyze when there was motion and then save what happened 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after motion occurred. At the end of the day, you are storing much less data that happens to be much more usable.
  • http://www.advanced-spy-equipment.com/ http://www.securityplanet.com/security.htm
  • SAIC's Digital Video Audit System sounds like a really good fit for what you're looking to do. Check it out at http://www.saic.com/products/transportation/digita l/ [saic.com]. Records and plays back simultaneously, availble through LAN or WAN, Searchable by time, date, location, etc. Top-notch stuff.
  • http://nemesis.inodes.org/ and http://motion.technolust.cx/ I'm not sure if the specs overlap, but if not I guess you could probably hack them together.
  • My current employer, Ultrak [ultrak.com], does exactly this sort of thing. Our Eurocorder II [ultrak.com](PDF doc) unit is a digital video recorder unit, it is PC based and runs a version of the NetBSD OS. It is capable of up to 16 cameras per unit. And has Motion detection, and a pre-event buffer, so you can save valuable drive space by only recording actual events, and still get the whole show; or you can keep a camera going in a "live" recording state. You can also backup to CD-R by default, and have the option of reviewing previous records while the system records. Your requirements pretty much describe our product.
  • At first glance, this looks pretty straightforward.

    There is always the issue though - how much is your time worth?
    Can you afford the time to develop (and debug) something like this from scratch, or would it be simpler
    (& cheaper in the long run) to use a commercial, turnkey solution?

    If you figure it _is_ worth developing from scratch - here's what I'd use:

    Linux, with a fairly recent kernel (nice BT8x8 vidcap drivers), an el cheapo video capture card (or more),
    'streamer' frame capture software (infinitely configurable for framerate, size, etc),
    'XawTV' for live viewing, and a whole bunch of 'glue' code (my preference is Tcl/TK),
    -- and Bob's yer uncle.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    check out the system from www.everfocus.com
    it's cool...and sounds just like what you are looking for I think it's about 3K maybe less for 16 cams....it's cool :)
  • Get yourself a big mean dog and don't feed it too much.
  • There's a company in Canada called March Networks that has this sort of stuff. Digital recorders, with archives that let you pull up specific timeframes to review. Their site is at www.marchnetworks.com/solutions/secure.asp [marchnetworks.com]
  • by alexjohns ( 53323 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [cirumla]> on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:39PM (#2934115) Journal
    Get a new domain - hotchicksinoffices.com or something like that - set up your cameras as webcams, get every employee to link to that homepage so that Google ranks it high, get a little word-of-mouth advertising via your geekiest employees, then, to coin (and extend) Linus's infamous line: "Let the perverts on the net mirror your images." It might help if you could get your female employees to dress slutty, sometimes. You could have "Dress Slutty Fridays" or "Hooker Thursdays". If you have any good-looking men, you might try the same thing for them. "Lumberjack Days" and "Construction Worker Week" might do well in certain markets.

    I don't really know how you would get the correct images back if you need them. Hmmm, maybe a promotion for somebody to win something if they have images with a certain timestamp. Perhaps a date with the cute secretary. Or money, if you have to stoop that low.

    • It might help if you could get your female employees to dress slutty, sometimes.

      If his female cow-orkers look anything like mine, I'd stay as far away from this as possible. The term "RCH" makes my stomach turn over now.
      • Hmmm. I'm going to have to point you to some fetish sites. Not any of them in particular, but in general. There are fetish sites for large women, short women, pregnant women, hirsute women, amputees, double amputees. Need I go on? You just need to point out that a particular webcam points in the direction of a short, bald, grossly overweight, albino grandmother and I guarantee you'll have 20 guys from all over the world glued to the page, hoping to catch a glimpse of some skin. (I won't be one of them, but we won't go into my particular peccadillos at this point in time.)

        I can't guarantee that any of them will save all the images but, as we programmers like to say, that's an implementation detail. RCH?

  • by rwa2 ( 4391 )
    OK, maybe this is more 22nd century, but probably worth looking at just for the "wow" factor. VSOC [vsoc.com] We went on a demo of it with my company a few weeks ago. They'll make a slick 3D model of your compound, with the fov cones of all your security cameras overlaid on it. Then you can zoom around your compound with full degrees of freedom with their slick OpenGL engine. Clicking on the fov cones gives you the live MPEG stream from that camera. Microwave motion sensors with each camera can also automatically activate the display/zoom. It really delivers some heightened situational awareness... if not maybe a bit of a God complex. Unfortunately, it doesn't represent "live" objects in the 3D model just yet, but I'd imagine that wouldn't be too far off... Looks like they already have the ST:TNG interface, though.

    Disclaimer: I'm somewhat affiliated with that company since they're a wholly-owned subsidiary of my parent company, but that's about it. And I speak for myself not on behalf of any of these companies :P .

  • Excellent System (Score:2, Informative)

    by Winterwind ( 555669 )
    Check out http://www.integraltech.com their DVX systems are easy to setup and have the best looking interface I have ever seen.
  • Maybe you can get one of those X-5 cameras that pops every time you go on Yahoo...
  • Why not use a digital tape solution?
    Hi data rate, you can buy terra-byte tape libraries. If there is a piece of footage you need, you can view it on tape or pull it to a Harddrive to run other apps against?
    For long term storage(years)you want hi credibilty, putting it on glass is the way to go.
  • by Raptor CK ( 10482 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:45PM (#2934146) Journal
    Assuming that you manage about a terabyte of storage, here are your numbers...

    Let's use Tivo's basic quality as an example, but drop the framerate to 15fps. This should look acceptable considering the limited changes from a stationary camera.

    A week's worth of data would use up 49 GB per camera. 16 cameras? 784GB.

    I'd advise settling for something more realistic at this point. Perhaps lowering the resolution, or going grayscale. Either way, you've still got to address *sixteen* cameras, so they'll need to be Axis webcams or something else capable of talking IP. There's no way that you'll get away with USB cameras.

    So, assuming that black and white reduces you to 33% of the previous number, that's still 262GB per week.

    You'd need slightly over two *terabytes* of storage to handle 8 weeks of 15 fps, TV resolution, B&W footage from 16 cameras.

    And you'd still need a way to encode the video feed to MPEG on the fly at the camera. And handle roughly 2.3 Mbit/sec per cam into your "server," which would have to reliably write 37 Mbit/sec to your 2 TB array. Without failing.

    Now, considering the fact that this is all *WAY* under Fast Ethernet and ATA specs, it's doable. But a homegrown solution with 8 week rollback just isn't feasible. Drop the rollback by a bit, dump to tape (unless you've got a fiber line going to a remote site for backups,) and keep a lot of spare drives around. You can't afford to have a failure anywhere in this assembly.

    Sorry if I've taken the wind out of anyone's sails through the judicious use of math, but I just wanted to make sure that no one does anything without being informed.
    • 8AM to 10PM. This probably isn't the usual middle-of-the-night, low-traffic, little-change-between-frames security system. From the hours, it might be a store, where they're more concerned with people stealing during the day rather than people breaking into the place after hours. If it's a heavy traffic area, constantly changing, you won't get nearly the compression rates as you would from a night security camera. So the requirements for storage space may be much, much higher depending on how much traffic passes in front of each camera.

    • You don't need *STREAMING* video.

      Generally 1 fps would be fine.

      Let's assume you store 640x480 images (better than NTSC) in full color in "standard average" jpg compression. These usually are around 60K.

      1 Minute would be 60 images 1 Hour would be 360 images 1 Day would be 8640 images 8640 images x 60K is about 518MB/day. Buy yourself a pair of 120GB drives. Interleave the images between the two (write even seconds to drive #1 and odd seconds to drive #2), and you can store a YEAR of data on about $400 worth of drives, for a single camera with 1FPS.

      However, a better way to do this is to do a difference comparison between the two frames. I.E. snap a frame, compare it with the previous one and don't store it unless it is different enough from the previously stored one.

      When a camera is idle you might store 1 per hour or something. I'd suspect that in a lot of cases quite a few of the 16 cameras would be mostly idle. If you were talking a typical convienence store for instance, during the day, store area and pump area cameras would be active most of the day, but only 1 or two would be active at night. Back room (cooler, storeroom, etc.) would generally be mostly idle.

      For sake of argument let's say that you would be snapping an image every second on 8 cameras and the rest quiescent. This would bring your total to just over 4.1GB/day. A 120GB drive would hold just under a month of data. I still reccommend two or more in an interleaved fashion.

      Most secuity cameras are NOT on a permanent retention basis. A month may be plenty. If this is the case, then 240GB would be fine. If longer retention is necessary, streaming these off to tape once a month doesn't sound too unreasonable. You could also further weed these down by being pickier on your difference stuff or just throwing away every other image.

      Another note is that a 640x480 image jpeg compressed is roughly 600kbits. With reducing this down to 320x240 and cranking the jpeg compression ratio (reducing quality), you could conceivably reduce this down under 100kbits. This is definately in the realm of reason as far as pushing images to an off-site server via DSL. You may have to settle for 1/8 fps or less if all 16 cameras are active. If I was doing this, I would probably set it up so it would rotate through the cameras in order and send the most recent of each image (after being through the "difference" change procedure) unless it hadn't been updated. This would provide protection if the criminal stole the equipment storing the data.

  • by Bowie J. Poag ( 16898 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:46PM (#2934153) Homepage


    If you have PC, a webcam and a burner, you're set.. It doesn't even need to be a fast PC or a fast burner. A typical sysadmin could sit down in one afternoon and get Linux up and running on the box, and toss a few entries into the crontab for that box to build an ISO of all the collected images to a harddisk, and subsequently burn a tarball of the day's events onto a CD-R. Cheap, costs pennies on the dollar compared to most commercial security systems, and is vastly more reliable/configurable/upgradable/stable. All you'de have to do is pop a new CD-R in the tray at the start of business every morning, or hell, make the CD-R a CDRW, and swap the disc out every couple weeks.

    DIY or DIE, buddy. ;)
  • The "Image Vault" products that this company produces work pretty well. I know someone who works there and have seen the product in action.
    If I needed to install a security system, this is where I would go.

    http://www.image-vault.com/
  • Use a TiVo! (Score:3, Informative)

    by netringer ( 319831 ) <maaddr-slashdot@NospaM.yahoo.com> on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:51PM (#2934175) Journal
    This place [digitalrecorder.tv] sells nag-removed TiVos PVRs just for this purpose. With two 80GB hard drives, you would store 160 hours of decent quality video with audio. Note: I have no experience doing business with the company so I'm not vouching for them. See The Tivo Community Forum [tivocommunityforum.com] for comments on the company.

    You would still need to get a time/date generator [eagle.co.za] to put in line with the video feed if you want to make the evidence court-admissible. Those are standard CCTV devices and may be built into CCTV cameras. DVRs [cctvusa.com] are used by CCTV and surveillance [spysite.com] professionals
  • Check out this (http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20011220 .html) article by Bob Cringely from a few months back. He talks about these smart cameras from a new company. They have their own processors built in and can do some really nifty things. I don't know about cost or if you could just get the cameras and connect it to an off-the-shelf computer but it sounds like a great way to go!! Hope that helps.
  • I was recently working with a device that seems perfect for your problem. It costs around $1000 per device, each can handle 8 cameras. It has built in support for motion detectors, can record all 8 cameras. You give it an IP address, set up security on it, (and of course, with a decent switch security can be increased). Using multiple devices of this type seem ideal. http://www.vpon21.com/ The website sucks but the device is pretty cool.
  • x10 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by karmma ( 105156 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @06:55PM (#2934199)
    While I'm not a fan of their advertising practices, I am a fan of the hardware. And there is a Linux driver [tanj.com] for the CM11A controller. X10 will allow you to integrate motion sensor events with camera control for /very/ short money - 3 cameras, receiver, x10 receiver, etc. for about $140.

    My boss recently asked me about implementing a video security system, and this is the way we're going.
  • by ph51pv ( 44826 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @07:03PM (#2934256) Homepage
    Having been involved in the development of just such a system (I won't name names, but you've probably got plenty of their products in your home and work environment already) I can give you one extremely important piece of advice:

    Forget all these "get yourself a bunch of webcams and X amount of diskspace".

    No uncertified homebrew system will EVER produce footage that's admissable in court. Period.

    Contact your local police department for a list of their approved equipment and vendors. The kind of solutions you're looking for do exist out of the box - the one I worked on had all the features you mention plus plenty of others - and you'll be able to use the footage in a "1st Evidence" capacity. Also consult with an attorney experienced in the field.

    This is one time when you need to know the legal requirements as well as the technical ones, and as has been said many times before, Slashdot is a really bad place to go for legal advice. ;)
  • There's a company called Dedicated Micros that has a 1U rackmount 320Gb digital security system, runs a stripped down linux, has a groovy little webserver interface, and controls up to 16 cameras on a single unit, and you can cascade multiple units. Also includes external SCSI connector to connect either an external tape device to archive the video, or an external drive enclosure/RAID array... We've got one here, and they even support PTZ cams... It's totally slick!
  • The first thing I did was get a high-resolution webcam, the FirewireDirect DV WebCam [firewiredirect.com] and an X10 [x10.com]
    Ninja for remote panning/tilting. You can remote control this with your computer, but I chose to not use this option yet - though I would like it controllable from the web.

    Then, for the recording, I'm using a beta build of CoolCam X [evological.com] from the great folks
    at Evological who implemented a few motion detection changes for me.

    Currently, for every time the motion detector trips, it records a JPEG still shot, and it also appends it to a Quicktime movie (in Photo-JPEG format, which, xine and xmovie happily reads). Every nite, a crontab entry moves all of the JPEG's and the movie into a dated directory, for later review.

    The Quicktime movie is kind of fun, watching life in motion lapse. I keep it all on the web, but since my link is small, I'm not going to link to any of the quicktime movies for now.. suffice to say, it's funny watching the street in the front of my house.

    All running happily on my (now obsolete) G4 DP533 running MacOS X.1
  • Call up some security firms.... ADT (http://www.adt.com [adt.com])although they are a huge company are good for doing walthroughs and recommendations. Going digital is pretty standard for security companies nowadays. good cameras are what will kill the budget however... look at spending about 750-1000 dollars each for a good security cam.... 'course, you can cheap out with usb webcams, but it'll break down the day whatever you're looking after gets stolen... Murphy's law and all that.

    Get a quote from a security professional, then cut back what you can.

    In case you're wondering, I'm a jeweller. I know a teensy bit about securing things. :)

  • Find out what company is making those real time MPEG4 encoding chips, see if there are any products designated for such use.

    Hell give a shout out to IndigoVision Here [indigovision.com] and ask them if any companies have released products based upon their hardware MPEG4 encoder.

    Use a Swann Spycam [swann.com.au] to do your surveillance. Plugs into anything that takes composite input. Which is just about anything.

    Hell that one digicam that came out awhile back that does real time MPEG4 encoding could even be used as a MPEG4 encoder in a pinch, it supports composite input as I recall.

    Ooooor.

    Just hop on over to Remote Security [remote-security.com] and buy some shtuff.
  • FirstLine products (Score:2, Informative)

    by matthew ( 85177 )
    A product I have some experience with is FirstLine [integraltech.com] from IntergalTech. They have just about every feature mentioned above with scalable hardware and good software. Some cool features include alarm activated recording, motion triggered recording, remote administration and remote video monitoring. I have personally had very good experiences with their products.
  • by acaird ( 530225 ) on Thursday January 31, 2002 @09:28PM (#2935008)
    A security company local to me (D/A Central [dacentral.com]) sells and supports software from Lenel [lenel.com] that does professional digital security systems, including video. We evaluated this as part of a security system purchase, and it was really expensive. We ended up going with a less sophisticated (and analog) system from Galaxy Control Systems [galaxysys.com] (seriously). The demos of the Lenel stuff were quite impressive, and they were serious enough that I imagine that the data they collected would stand up in court (to comment on a previous poster's concern). BTW, almost all of this stuff is Windows only, but continues to work if the controlling computer is unavailable. However, the security of that computer becomes paramount (ours isn't on the network and is in a locked room, for example). If your company is serious, X10 and some random freshmeat probably isn't the way to go; what security company supports that, anyhow? Find a company in your area that sells Lenel (or whatever) and have them do it right for you.
  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Friday February 01, 2002 @03:05AM (#2936032) Homepage
    At the high end, there's the IQEye 3 [visiqn.com]. 1280 by 960 pixels. About 8 frames per second max. Connects directly to Ethernet. Power over Ethernet cable option. Color. Switches to B/W at low light levels. Extended temperature range available. Camera programmable in C. Built-in HTTP server. Generates JPEGs. Also talks SMTP, BOOTP, FTP, SNMP, Telnet, TFTP. (I see security problems there; this thing has too much network access.) Digital pan and zoom. 3" high x 3" wide x 5 1/4" long, without lens. $1400 each.

    The online demo indicates that the resolution is great under good lighting, but lousy in dim light.

  • by bfree ( 113420 ) on Friday February 01, 2002 @07:09AM (#2936440)
    A couple of years ago I saw the Digital Detective from DPS which was a hard disk recorder box for video surveillance taking up to 4 cameras. The best features included being able to tweak what is stored on events including going back in time (perhaps only a little but even 10 secs makes a huge difference) and it could hook up to the net for remote viewing etc. Don't know if they still do them or if they cover all your criteria but no-one else had mentioned them.
  • What about close-circuit TV connected to a TiVO or other DVR? Or am I not understanding how those work...

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