Mutant USB K(V)M Switches? 44
Zwack asks: "I was wondering about a KVM switch capable of handling both Macintosh and Linux like computers. I would prefer the V part to be optional as I use multiple screens, but I prefer to use a single keyboard and mouse. Ideally there would be an open design out there that I could adapt to my needs. I've worked with large commercial products before with mixed results, but the prices seem exorbitant for my limited home use. I've searched google without any real success. Does anyone know of any low cost products or open designs that they would recommend. Initially PC/Mac support is all that is required, longer term I may want to add Unix workstations into the mix (I used to own Sun and SGI boxes, and I work with a lot of HP and IBM equipment)." The "mutant" part comes from the fact that the switch itself has to offer an easy way to adapt to the different platforms it will connect to. Such a switch might use special cables: a custom connector to the switch, but the opposite end will connect to whatever machine you like, be it a PC, a Mac, a workstation or even a TV. Something like this would strike me as a very useful portable device, has anyone developed something like this yet?
a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:4, Insightful)
What needs? If it switches the KVM, what else do you need? I guess given a choice, open beats closed. But I don't see the utility here.
I've worked with large commercial products before with mixed results, but the prices seem exorbitant for my limited home use.
"Limited home" users shouldn't buy KVMs. What I mean is that rack-mounted servers are also "exorbitant for...limited home use." They're not targetted at home users. If you want to use them, you pay the price.
The "mutant" part comes from the fact that the switch itself has to offer an easy way to adapt to the different platforms it will connect to. Such a switch might use special cables: a custom connector to the switch, but the opposite end will connect to whatever machine you like, be it a PC, a Mac, a workstation or even a TV. Something like this would strike me as a very useful portable device, has anyone developed something like this yet?
Why has no one developed an adapter that will let you put any engine into any car? This is a ton of work, and it's not the kind of adaptation that can be performed without sticking a real CPU in there with every different kind of interface. It's a lot trickier than just shifting wires around. The end result would be an expensive device that no one would pay for: someone would want it for the SGIPC translation but not want to pay for the HP, Mac, etc. translations in the process! This is best accomplished, IMO, by finding converters to whatever format you can (serial, e.g.) and then getting a switch in that protocol.
Re:a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:2)
My bad, this should have said SGI<->PC.
Re:a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:1)
Eh, it's not *that* bad. Especially when you consider that the video formats are trivially handled (just get a monitor that can take sync-on-green, composite sync, and separate sync at whatever your max resolution is). All modern workstation hardware seems to either take USB or PS/2 keyboards/mice natively: SGI does since the Indy, HP stuff newer than '94 does, IBM stuff does, Sun stuff takes USB and you can get converters to PS/2. Any Mac you'd likely feel like bothering with takes USB.
Where this sounds like it gets tricky is in the TV out/in part. At that point you have to build yourself a serious scan converter, and doing multi-in/multi-out matrix switching requires a lot of work.
Re:a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:3, Insightful)
I build my own open air racks and I have no problems and they're actually cheaper and run cooler than cased PCs as well as being much easier to diagnose when problems occur. How is it more expensive to put four boards on a rack I build myself for thirty bucks than it is to buy four cases? It saves space too. I don't see the down side.
As for using a KVM in a mixed environment, I've never had a problem using the most generic PS2 KVM in a mixed network with two or three Linux distros and few versions of Windows. The only time I get problems is when a machine on a switch goes down while the switch is pointed at it, it can take out the mouse functionality on all the machines on that switch. But if the machines are network servers or running dedicated tasks as you'd expect in a rack mount situation, then they shouldn't be going down all the time and this won't be a big problem. Also, losing the mouse despite being inconvenient and requiring a reboot to fix doesn't mean your servers crash.
I keep two separate KVMs. One is for the boards I'm playing with and one is for the machines that are supposed to be stable. That works quite nicely. And once you try this, you realize you can add board, CPU, RAM units for such little cost your network starts to grow quickly. And why not, for the cost of a Dell PC you can add three or four boards/CPUs.
And all this functionality is from no-name totally generic beige KVM boxes with A,B,C,D on the front that cost about twelve bucks. They're availalbe in USB, or AT + Serial or whatever brightens your day. I don't see why you'd need a name brand or something specifically tailored for multiple OSs. Just buy one and try it, they're quite cheap.
And while you're at it, build your own racks and screw the cases. You don't need to encourage bad design work from Taiwan. I live in Taiwan and I can tell you that the people here are capable of making beautiful designs that put the Japanese to shame, but they go where the money is. If people keep buying these ugly cases, they'll keep making them. If the demand drops maybe they'll start making cool curvy home rack mounts. I say buy the ugly KVMs for now and ditch the cases. Maybe later we'll see both in designer styles at the right prices.
This isn't as far fetched as it may seem because if they were selling OEM designer home racks instead of cases, a KVM would be an obvious vlaue added feature.
And, there is an adaptor for swapping engines between cars, it's called a torch. If you keep the engine with a matching tranny all you have to do is shorten or lengthen the drive shaft to make it fit and possibly bang on some sheet metal and screw with the mounts, but it's not that big of a deal if you're swapping motors anyway.
Re:a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:3, Informative)
That's pretty awesome. One note, the KVM isn't even necessary once the boxes are configured and on the network. But is it not true that PCs won't boot w/o keyboard connected? Is there a kind of "fake keyboard" terminator or something that you can plug into the keyboard port to make the system boot?
And all this functionality is from no-name totally generic beige KVM boxes with A,B,C,D on the front that cost about twelve bucks. They're availalbe in USB, or AT + Serial or whatever brightens your day. I don't see why you'd need a name brand or something specifically tailored for multiple OSs. Just buy one and try it, they're quite cheap.
These would be KM switches, or video too? I had no idea they were available so cheaply. My needs in this area are minimal (unless I could share a sync-on-green monitor and a keyboard and mouse between a DEC 3000 and a NuBus Mac, but I'm not holding my breath), but I'm intrigued.
And while you're at it, build your own racks and screw the cases. You don't need to encourage bad design work from Taiwan. I live in Taiwan and I can tell you that the people here are capable of making beautiful designs that put the Japanese to shame, but they go where the money is. If people keep buying these ugly cases, they'll keep making them. If the demand drops maybe they'll start making cool curvy home rack mounts. I say buy the ugly KVMs for now and ditch the cases. Maybe later we'll see both in designer styles at the right prices.
I'm a little confused. I was under the impression that rack-mounted systems did have cases...just rack-mount cases. Above it sounds like you're talking about no cases at all?!? Or by "screw the cases" do you mean "screw the cases to the rack"? :)
And, there is an adaptor for swapping engines between cars, it's called a torch. If you keep the engine with a matching tranny all you have to do is shorten or lengthen the drive shaft to make it fit and possibly bang on some sheet metal and screw with the mounts, but it's not that big of a deal if you're swapping motors anyway.
I had no idea about this. Of course my parent gets modded "Interesting" and yours gets nothing, but that's the nature of the beast. Consider this an unofficial +1 Informative.
Re:a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:2)
Obviously professional rack mounts have their pricey little 1U cases, but I skip that step. Good sheet metal design work is very expensive and bad sheet metal design is butt ugly and omnipresent. I just leave my boards out on the racks which you could also call shelves in this case or even statues I suppose. In fact, I make mine of portland cement, but that's another story.
As for the KVMs I use, they don't have any markers on them at all except the A,B,C,D on the front, but they are definitely cheap and come in USB also. I've had no problems with them. As I mentioned, I'm in Taiwan and that probably has something to do with my easy access to such goods, but I did buy a very similar model for only about twenty bucks in San Diego last year for my Dad and then I saw some more up on the Central Coast of California at an Electronics parts store rather than a computer store. They didn't have USB yet as of last year, but they were plenty cheap and most boards still support PS2 these days. If you see an el cheapo KVM, don't be afraid to give it a try. I was really impressed when I found it worked. I could never go back. I couldn't afford all the monitors and I'd have no place for them. Besides, CRTs put off a lof heat and Taiwan is already very very hot and humid. Maybe when LCD's are cheap it will be another story, but I'm not holding my breath for that.
Of course the next thing that happens after you get a switch and start filling it up with whatever boards you can find is that people start accusing you of being a hog for having so many PCs, but that fades quickly. I know my wife who was skeptical at first quit complaining the first time her box went down and I was able to switch her over to a new one in no time flat. Keeping the proxy server on a physically separate machine and then moving the P2P off on to its own board/drive really smooths network hassles out quite a bit. Another board handles the CDR, you see how quickly a four way switch starts to fill up and you're not even browsing
Another thing I'm seeing here in Taiwan related to KVM that I haven't seen in the States is massive pre-packaged cable harnesses. Perhaps with the move to USB, they'll get scaled down a bit, but they have these monster suckers in cool colors that come in pack with connection for 4X PS2 Keyboard, PS2 Mouse, Monitor. These things look like equipment you'd find in a nuclear power plant, each insulated cable is about a half inch thick. I bought those for use at work and we rarely have KVM problems on those machines although you do want to be careful with the connection of those heavy cables so you don't rip the connectors off the boards. Luckily, those PS2 connectors are fairly hardy.
Buying them all pre-wired like that is awful convenient and you can't help but start getting ideas like, gee, if I had four of these and a sixteen way KVM and a sixteen port gigabit ethernet switch. . . . when Mosix gets support for memory pooling . . . drool.
Unfotunately, the monster cable packs cost more than twice as much as the KVM itself, but that's still not all that much compared to the equipment they replace that was mostly just going unused sitting on machines with dedicated tasks that just had someone flicking the monitors on now and then to see if everything was okay. They're cool alright, but USB versions will probably be even cooler.
Re:a lot of hard work, for what? (Score:2)
So the board is just hanging out there? I guess that would be okay...I do seem to have my PC open enough that it would save some time. And putting it on a rack means getting it above beverage level.
I'll definitely consider a setup like this. It sounds sweet. Especially the dedicated P2P box. With some proper prioritization set up that would translate directly into lifestyle improvements.
x2vnc and win2vnc (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.hubbe.net/~hubbe/x2vnc.html
http://
Re:x2vnc and win2vnc (Score:1)
Another good package (although platform limited) is SGI's Teleffect; it allows keyboard/mouse sharing between NT/2K and Irix boxes. It comes bundled with contemporary versions of Irix, don't know about availablility or licensing as a standalone product.
www.sgi.com/software/teleffect [sgi.com]My KVM Solution (Score:4, Informative)
My keyboard and mouse I use is PS/2. (I do have MAC issue keyboard and mouse, but you'll see why I use PS/2.) from there, it travels to my $50 (w/o cables) Linksys PS2KVM2 [linksys.com] switch with my screen connected. To my Dell PC, I connect the switch up using some double male patch cords. For the MAC, I got a USB to PS/2 adapter for $15 at a computer show.
It works like a charm! For the Linksys switch, I just have to hit Ctrl twice and I switch computers. It really confuses some of my friends when one minute they are looking at OS X and the next Windows XP. I do have a few notes:
If a switch does not plug into the wall for power, it will draw power from keyboard and mouse inputs. In other words, you can expect things to work unless one powered keyboard and mouse are connected to the switch. If you removed video from the switch, it will still operate as long as the keyboard and mouse are plugged in.
The other note I have is that even though I can still use all the keyboard functions on the MAC. The Windows key functions like the Apple key. The only thing I can't seem to do is do boot-level functions. (Example: If I hold down C at booting, it will not boot to the CD drive.) That's why you should keep your old mac keyboard and mouse around.
I know this isn't a pure USB solution, but it may be cheeper than finding a box that uses USB natively. Hope this helped someone!
Re:My KVM Solution (Score:3, Informative)
I prefer the Belkins over the Linksys KVMs because the cable management is sooo much nicer. The cables come out of the Linksys at right angles, ewwww.
use a normal kvm and a usb to ps2 adaptor (Score:4, Informative)
Works great.
Adaptor was about $20 at Fry's.
Belkin OmniView SOHO KVM-(google is your friend) (Score:4, Informative)
We're doing this at the office for some secretarial luser who needs both a W2K and Mac box. We picked up one of the Belkin Omniview SOHO 4's [belkin.com] and had no problem hooking it up to both platforms. I've also heard that it works with linux (at least on a RH7.0 install someone had...YMMV)
Re:Belkin OmniView SOHO KVM-(google is your friend (Score:1)
Re:Belkin OmniView SOHO KVM-(google is your friend (Score:2)
USB Switch (Score:2, Interesting)
So I got myself just a plain 3 position USB switch and some long USB A to B cables. I feed my usb keyboard and trackball into a hub and then into the switch. The switch itself is $25. Problem solved.
Here's the switch I use:
http://www.cablesnmor.com/usb-switch-box.html
I also use win2vnc from time to time, but it's lack of wheel support, ALT-TAB support and misunderstanding of multimonitor can make it very confusing to use.
Re:USB Switch (Score:1)
belkin soho (Score:2, Interesting)
its pretty sweet.
Old box w./Linux would be cheaper.... (Score:1)
data over the network to whatever UN*X box you
have (this should include you OS X Mac).
You can get an old box that would handle to "load" like that for free (or for under $200), I doubt
any "universal" box will be cheaper.
OTOH, if you need to control booting of
your boxen, this would not help... But how often do you need to reboot a UN*X box?
Paul B.
Check out IOGear.com -- USB KVM switches (Score:1, Informative)
I have the GCS104U. Bought it for $80 last year, but somehow it's selling for twice that now. 4 computers can share video and one USB mouse/keyboard, and can also share 4 USB peripherals (check the iogear.com web site for better photos, like:
http://www.iogear.com/resources/139/Web%20
I've thought about this issue too (Score:2, Interesting)
This all was working good until last night when my brother-in-law told me his boss is thinking about giving me one of their old O2's. Where the #*^%$*$ am I going to put a SGI box now? It's a problem that I'm happy to try to figure out. The Old World Mac is slowly becoming a file server and I can free up some space but I would have to start over if I picked up an Alpha and a Sparc. Oh to be a geek
a few options... (Score:2)
I believe it's exactly the same as this model from IOGear [iogear.com], although that's not the name on the box. They cost just over $100 and switch 4 computers each.
On the back, there's a USB port and a video port for each computer. Then there's another port for the monitor and 4 ports for any USB peripherals. I use a sun type-6 usb keyboard, a microsoft optical usb mouse. I believe this should work with a mac too.
Now here's the reality of working with this setup: when you switch between computers, the USB devices are disconnected on one system, then enumerated on the new system. On windows, you get the busy cursor for about 2-3 seconds before the mouse and keyboard become active. On linux or solaris, you get a bunch of new devices in the log appearing or disappearing every time you switch over. Also, on redhat, it seems that if I boot the system without being switched to the keyboard and mouse the window system may not start until you log in and say startx.
Now belkin [belkin.com] makes a USB & PS/2 kvm switch. It will even switch audio as well. I bought one of these, only to find out that I can't use my USB keyboard. What it does is accept a PS/2 style keyboard and pass those signals on to computers that need PS/2, and pretend to be a USB keyboard for the other systems. This could eliminate the switching problems (the systems never see a disconnect/reconnect), but you don't get the benefit of a USB keyboard.
Also, for what it's worth, Network Technologies makes a bunch of KVM switches. I had one of their rack-mount switches a while back and it worked fine. I could use a sun type-5 keyboard and mouse with lots of suns and PC's.
Re:a few options... (Score:2)
If I switch back and forth too much between the two computers I have attached to the switch, one of them will eventually crap out on me. It's usually my Win2K box with an error message that I have to click on to reset my usb port, but I can't since the problem is with my usb keyboard and mouse.
Multiple computers with one keyboard (Score:2)
What's missing is a program like X2Vnc [hubbe.net] to catch the mouse pointer and all keystrokes when moving from one end of the screen to another, or maybe with a key-combination.
Any other way it's a totally useless feature, but my laptop don't like ps/2 kvm's either so that's not a solution for me.
Blackbox Makes Them (Score:2)
Huh? What's the problem? (Score:1)
Multiple screens for each computer, 1 mouse+kbd (Score:2)
You'll probably like this setup better than a kvm anyway. I use it, but keep seperate keyboards/mice stowed behind the cases of any "slave" machines since sometimes i might need to assume direct control of them - games are not fond of taking control via VNC
You could use a KVM for this purpose too - to serve only as a backup to assume direct control of a PC when you can't get ahold of it with x2x or x2vnc.
On the issue of controlling a mixture of mac/pc's with a kvm (if you are dead set on it or if you wish to for the reasons i stated above), why not get one of those USB "port replicator" things with PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports on it? Certainly you could plug the outputs of a kvm into that, and it'd be a lot cheaper than some funky KVM that can handle a mixture of USB/PS2 keyboard or mouse control.
~GoRK
The ultimate switch is the SwitchView MP (Score:1)
I just got myself one of these and I'm extremely happy with it. I'm not running Linux on any of my machines, but it would work just fine.
The switch is a 4-port switch made especially for running multiple platforms.
You can attach any PC using USB, PS/2 or AT keyboard, and USB, PS/2 or serial mouse.
You can attach any USB-based Mac with a VGA port.
You can attach any Sun box.
As far as the actual I/O devices you can attach to the switch
- you can use a serial, PS/2 or Sun mouse
- you can use a PS/2 or Sun keyboard
You can't actually attach USB devices to the switch, even though you can have computers that use USB.
The monitor has to be a 15-pin VGA type - but there are adapters available for the old Sun type monitors.
I am currently using this switch with two PCs (both using PS/2 mouse and PS/2 keyboard plugs) running OS/2, and a Sun Ultrasparc 5. Together with the 3 cable sets (2 PC sets and 1 Sun) and shipping, it cost me $399 . I plan to use the 4th port on the switch for a USB-based Mac when I buy a Mac.
The devices I'm using are
- an AZERTY keyboard (yes, I'm French). This worked fine with PCs. To get it recognized as French by the Sun, it took more work. The Sun tries to autodetect the keyboard's language. This only works with Sun keyboards, not with PC keyboards like mine. So it was recognized as US QWERTY. Fortunately, the SwitchView has a special command mode you can use to set parameters. You type the command on the keyboard, and it gets saved into the SwitchViewp.
After I entered CTRL CTRL SUN=23 ENTER, shut down my Sun, and restarted it, it automatically detected my keyboard as AZERTY, emulating a French Sun keyboard ! Joy.
- a Kensington Expert Mouse 4-button trackball . This is one of the explicitly supported trackballs. The firmware of the SwitchView MP specifically knows about this trackball model and a few others. Otherwise it always works as just a 2-button mouse through other switches, both mechanical and electronic. But the SwitchView lets all 4 buttons and acceleration work. Joy !!! This is the best switch I have seen. Make sure your trackball is explicitly supported in the list though, if you want the special features. Also note the newer Expert Mouse / Pro (which I also have) isn't supported yet. It acts as a 2 -button mouse. It probably takes a KVM switch firmware upgrade for it to work. But I'm happy with the old trackball for now.
- as far as monitor, I'm using a 5.5-year old Viewsonic P815 21" monitor. Works great. My OS/2 PCs are running at 1600x1200x16M at 80 Hz, with a Matrox G450 video card. This is the maximum video resolution/rate the switch is rated for. There is a very tiny amount of ghosting, but nothing that bothers me, and I have returned many switches before because the video quality was inadequate. If I increase the refresh rate to 90 Hz, ghosting becomes more noticeable, this is why I reduced it to 80 Hz.
In short, this is the best switch I have ever seen. I cannot recommend it enough. Very much worth the money. And if you know how much real estate costs in Silicon Valley, you understand that the space savings of having only one monitor/keyboard/mouse pays for itself many many times.
What would you be willing to pay for the right KVM (Score:2)
I've been thinking along the same lines myself. I own, more or less, one of everything out there. And while it may only be a mac and pc, or pc and unix box, you have to remember that the mutant KVM would have to be usable with all these and more, or what's the point? First off, let's enumerate the various systems this would have to be designed for.
XT PC with db9 CGA video (serial mouse)
XT PC with db9 CGA video (bus mouse)
XT PC with hdb15 VGA (serial mouse)
XT PC with VGA (bus mouse)
PS/2 (mouse and kb, VGA)
USB PC (mouse and kb, VGA)
Mac ADB (db15 mac VGA)
USB Mac
Sun (type 5 kb and mouse, 13w3)
Next Cube (I believe cubes are all non-ADB, with a sun5 kb and mouse... video is db19, fixed VGA)
NeXT slab (sun type5 kb and mouse, 13w3)
NeXT slab (ADB mouse and kb, 13w3)
SGI (several different formats, only read about them)
DEC (rj11 kb, miniDIN-7 mouse, 3w3 video)
This should work for vaxstations, DECstations, and some alphas
Serial terminal (seems it would be useful)
Amiga (quadrature db9 mouse, db23 multiscan video)
Atari ST (db9 quad mouse, strange miniDIN-19 multiscan/VGA video)
I've missed some, but these are the ones that I can think of, off the top of my head. Some people like me, have most or all of them, sometimes even several of one or another. A single piece KVM just won't work, and adapters are messy at best, and often unworkable. How to fix this?
The first problem that comes to mind, is that of keyboard differences... some are insurmountable. Sure, you can get away with keyboard remapping to some extent. But I think I have a fancier solution, if more expensive. A totally new keyboard. Call this Product #1.
Product #1 is a USB keyboard. It has something along the lines of 140-160 keys. Each key has a real keyswitch, not the damn bubble membranes you see nowdays. Each key also has a small monochrome LCD atop it, with a pixel resolution of 24x24 or so. We can remap any of these keys to any other, and the legend follows. We have plenty of keys, for the 24 function keys that some systems use, the mac specific keys, the "windows" keys, everything. When you press the capslock, maybe even the legends change to reflect this. Hell, maybe game designers could have the game remap icons to certain keys... there could be alot of use in this thing all by itself. Hence, it being USB, allowing it to be a seperate product.
The second problem you'll encounter, is that of a wildly varying group/number of systems people like us might like to use with it. This, I think is also solvable.
Product #2
The KVM itself, would be a attractive chassis, with anywhere from 8 to 64 slots. Perhaps even several models to reflect this. These slots would be much like you see on router hardware, hotpluggable, with no need to open the case. The chassis itself would probably be a passive backplane with a small power supply. There would be one (or possibly more on the high end model) "controller" slot. This slot/card is where you plug in your keyboard, mouse and monitor. If necessary, there could even be several different cards for this, maybe one for a regular ps/2 setup, another for the Uber-keyboard described above, etc. Future insurance against having a DVI flat panel 5 years from now, if you like to think of it that way.
The other slots, would allow you to plug in the perfect match for whatever computer you will use it with. If there is no such card, you call me up, and get a quote from me. I hopefully wouldn't have to charge too much... I get to keep the design, in case someone wants one later. We even make the design open... make your own, or design it and let me put it together. I dunno. But the idea is just too cool, IMO, to not do it.
Can anyone see a technical problem with this?
Can anyone think of a good way to get this happening?
Hmmm... I guess I should have mentioned... (Score:2)
Well, there have been some interesting (and some pointless comments)...
I didn't think about it, but both of the macs I have are older ADB macs (1 68k and one PowerPC)... I don't have any USB macs at all. USB didn't even strike me as being relevant considering the array of equipment that I am thinking of... Although that does make sense for newer consumer machines.
Of the Linux boxes, two out of four have USB (the others are P90-P133 machines in various server roles)...
Some of the real unix boxes use Serial consoles which work for booting too and for those I'll happily use conserver [conserver.com] But some of the other machines I've used in the past used a local keyboard/mouse and wouldn't have it any other way.
I guess that what would be nice is a modular system. Plug in a board per machine which converts universal keyboard/mouse/video signals into specific ones. The boards would probably have to have some sort of DSP on them to convert the signals into USB/ADB/PS2/AT... The video signals would also need to be converted to some extent...
For the moment though, I guess I just want something that can convert ADB to PS2 to AT and back again... And a simple selector.
Z.