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Non x-86/Mac-PPC Workstations? 84

Posted by Cliff from the looking-for-a-different-kind-of-animal dept.
Aknaton asks: "As I begin to plan for my annual fall purchase of new hardware, I would like to try something different. I have already owned several PPC Macs running MacOS X and many PCs but they still leave me wanting more. I have begun looking for non-Apple/X86 alternatives but I am not finding much. SGI still makes machines but they don't even list prices. Sun offers the SunBlade 100, for just under a grand and it is a consideration. Can anyone else suggest, or know of, any other options? Or is it just a PC world after all?"
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Non x-86/Mac-PPC Workstations? More

Non x-86/Mac-PPC Workstations?

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  • Other Unix vendors (Score:3, Informative)

    by Tuzanor ( 125152 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @03:28PM (#3417907) Homepage
    You can still find good HP-UX/PA-RISC and Alpha workstations. Even though they are both supposedly architectures that are heading to that great recycle bin in the sky. Some of the HP machines are really neat, and you never hear much about them because SUN pretty much owned the market. I'm not 100% sure on IBM machines, but their PowerPC chips are quite different to the ones you find in Apple boxen. You may want to take a look on ebay or wherever else you can get this kind of stuff.
    • Most recent IBM gear that is useful, will be PowerPC based... maybe some mips somewhere.. Older AS/400 gear (you know, the cheap stuff, you can get cheaply, if not slightly free) I think before the 7xx or is it the 6xx series are PowerPC based.... Or is it as far back as the 5xx series. I know the 4xx series units are propritary chips. Honestly, you will not be able to pick up a 5xx or above system. One of my customers got a 730-somethign unit.... it cost them half a million. Ouch.

      I have a friend that got a brand new rs/6000 from a university who somebody had broken the lock on the case, and lost the documentation. IBM has some good documentation out there, but mostly 3rd party sites will tell you what kind of processor/chipsets are in the box, and what the unit can run.

      I found that some ebay sellers do not know what they sell... I have found some listings that I looked up the model, and it did, in no way match what they were selling. *shrugs*

  • Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by crow ( 16139 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @03:29PM (#3417915) Homepage Journal
    Sure, you can get MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, PowerPC, StrongARM, or something even more esoteric, but what's the point? You'll end up running the same code, just compiled to a different processor. Despite the technical shortcomings of the X86, the processor can still run anything you can compile. Sure there are annoying BIOS issues. But when you come down to running real code, even most of the kernel code, it doesn't matter one bit what processor you have.

    • Why Not? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GreenHell ( 209242 )
      There's no real answer. It's just sort of a thing that's particular to a sub-set of geeks: The desire to have as many different architectures running as possible. It's one of those things like people who collect stuff (stamps, cards, 1st edition books, etc), if you have to ask 'Why?' you're obviously not in that group and it's likely you never will be.
      • Yeah, I understand that point. It's like my desire to always run the latest version of everything or upgrade my hardware. At times that can be fun. At other times, it's a waste of time that only causes problems. When it comes to hardware upgrades, the question I always have to ask myself is, "What will this new hardware let me do that I can't do now?" Until I can answer that question, I can't justify spending money on it.

        So while getting a system with a different architecture does have a cool geek factor to it, my point is that it doesn't let you do anything that you can't do with more common hardware. That may still be enough reason to do it, or it may not, but it's good to keep it in perspective.

    • Re:Why? (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      sure it does. it keeps you on your toes when you're developing. sparc64 is 64BE to trap int/pointer conversions and to restrict alignment. ppc has bits numbered the wrong way and has an unsigned char by default. alpha only has a 27bit pci window.

      betcha if you tried running the last C code you wrote on all of the three above arches, it would break on at least one.
      • Which is why i have 15 machines purchased from Ebay running a wide variety of hardware/software combinations for testing. The last code i was working on, sofar compiles and runs on every unix os, plus cygwin, that i have tested it on.

    • Re:Why? (Score:2)

      by pmz ( 462998 )
      It isn't just the technical shortcomings of the x86 processor. Consider, also, that most PCs are hodge-podge assemblies of cheap components. One reason why many people choose brand-name RISC workstations is that they really are simpler to work with, they break less, they perform consistently, they have longer useful lifetimes, and they have real firmware.

      I have been using Sun workstations for a few years, now, and when my PC breaks, I'm replacing it with an Ultra. What about games, someone asks? Why, that's why I have a PlayStation. What about Windows, someone asks? Well, Windows is a toy and has nothing I need, and I need to get real work done.
    • I basically agree, but I might as well play devil's advocate. Or try to.

      Some machines have special hardware features. Usually you can get the same features with a PCI card, but not always. However, this is no longer something you'll see on a consumer-level machine.

      SGI is a prime example. They sell some impressive graphics systems [sgi.com] that don't have any real competition in the PC or Mac worlds. But these are not toys for individuals -- they're expensive tools that big companies buy, and then only after carefully weighing the alternatives.

      Over the years, SGI has tried to market its alternatives to the commodity PC [obsolyte.com]. Kind of pointless -- people who need PCs buy PCs. They did finally wise up to this [dccworkstation.com], but much too late.

      There used to be more systems like this (the Amiga is a prime example), but all except the Mac have essentially disappeared. And even the Mac makes little comprimises with the commodity marketplace -- like that obscene PC-compatible keyboard.

      If you're thinking that owning a Sun will offer you a novel user experience, forget it. Solaris totally lags behind in UI design. That's why Sun has turned to the GNOME people to help them update it. People buy Sun workstations to run high-performance software -- from the command line!

      Whoops! I seem to have ended up totally agreeing with crow. Oh well!

      • Re:Yeah but... (Score:2, Insightful)

        by ksheff ( 2406 )

        The Indy provided a relatively cheap way to provide programmers a machine that they could use to create applications for other SGI models. One could develop and test gl programs w/o having to stand in line for access to a more powerful machine. All the *nix vendors have or had something similar for pretty much the same reasons.

        • Re:Yeah but... (Score:3, Interesting)

          by fm6 ( 162816 )
          Yeah, that was one marketing strategy for the Indy. And I suppose some developers actually used it that way. But the main strength of most SGI hardware is in high-performance computing. The Indy, despite its MIPS architecture, is just not a HPC machine. Hard to see developing for the Indy as being much of stepping-stone.

          I could be mistaken, but I think the Indy was positioned as a business computer, something people would buy instead of an IBM AT. Note the standard cam, the built-in ISDN hardware, the bundled whiteboard software. A lot more profitable market than ILM wannabes who can't afford an Indigo [agamemnon.org]

          • Re:Yeah but... (Score:2, Interesting)

            by ksheff ( 2406 )

            I can't speak for all Indy customers, but that was the reason why the place I used to work at bought them. At the time we had only 2 or 3 big SGI machines with graphics pipelines. Having an Indy on the desktop, we could develop and test gl or ImageVision programs on our own workstations and then copy the binaries over to the big machines for production use. I'm sure SGI used them for their internal developers too. The ISDN option seems like something one would want to have if you were at home and telecommuting (at the time it was introduced anyway). I never saw any product literature touting it as a normal business computer, just an affordable scientific/graphics workstation. Off the top of my head I can't recall any business apps for those machines.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by alangmead ( 109702 )
      In Kernagan and Pike's The Practice of Programming [aw.com] they argue that programs that are written to be portable are inherently better programs. The abstractions that need to be done to make a program work across different operating systems and architectures, (and don't think of "Unix" as a single operating system. Think of it as a family of operating systems.) are abstractions that help improve program quality.

      If systems seem all the same to you, then either the range of systems you have developed for are rather limited, or the complexity of the development has been rather shallow.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ninewands ( 105734 )
      Two words ... reliability and support.

      I'm an admin in a mixed-platform Unix environment at a university (which means I work with machines that a lot of folks would consider 'legacy').

      I admin Solaris (both SPARC and x86) Tru64 on the Alpha, Irix and Linux. The SPARC, Alpha, and MIPS boxen just DON'T go down barring a power outage or a hard drive failure, which can and will happen on ANY architecture.

      I work on machines that are older than some Slashdot posters as well as some of the latest and greatest. Buying a RISC box is a long-term investment and the vendors treat it as such. At present, Sun is still issuing bugfix and security patches for Solaris 2.5, even though it's almost six years old. I have tied up multiple Sun support Engineers for hours on end trying to solve a hardware compatibility problem involving a SunPCI card. You just don't get that kind of service on the x86/PPC architectures.
      • I admin Solaris (both SPARC and x86) Tru64 on the Alpha, Irix and Linux. The SPARC, Alpha, and MIPS boxen just DON'T go down barring a power outage or a hard drive failure, which can and will happen on ANY architecture.

        Can you drop by our server room for an hour or two and try and find out why our IBM p620 running AIX 5.1L keeps crashing without explanation every 50-60 days? I wish our RISC hardware was as reliable as some of our beige-box Intel Linux machines...

        • Re:Why? (Score:1)

          by Zurk ( 37028 )
          yeah. i had that and i fixed it. fix was a bitch though..involved hardware. it was on an F-50 dual CPU IBM box with AIX 4.3.x... where are you located ? if you can pay for transport i should be able to fix it.
          • Sounds good, except we're in Sydney. The p620 is only about 4 months old, and we're IBM business partners, so we shouldn't have any trouble getting the problem looked at (if IBM acknowledges it). We have a p660 turning up any day, so it'll be interesting to see if it acts the same way
    • RISC workstations usually use a smaller subset of hardware and software, which is heavily designed and tested together, resulting in a stabler more reliable overall system.. no driver issues and such for instance, bad or conflicting drivers are one of the largest causes of crashes on x86 machines.

  • lots! (Score:1)

    by tps12 ( 105590 )
    Get an alpha or vax or MIPS or something. There is a lot to choose from out there, hell!

  • Have you tried... (Score:4, Informative)

    by OneFix ( 18661 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @03:39PM (#3417990)
    The new Amiga One [eyetech.co.uk] hardware. This is was the subject of a previous article [slashdot.org]. Outside of the CPU, it looks to take pretty much standard PeeCee hardware, but it's PPC based and it runs Linux right now...it will run AmigaOS once the nextgen OS is completed.

  • What about legacy hardware? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by catseye ( 96076 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @03:42PM (#3418006)
    Someone else already mentioned that all you'll do with different "modern" hardware is compile the same old stuff for a different processor. How truly different are modern machines, especially with ubiquitous operating systems like Linux?

    Maybe a more interesting challenge would be to hunt down some legacy hardware you never worked with, for example. An Amiga or Atari ST might be an interesting challenge, and both still have vibrant developer and user communities (maybe too vibrant, in the case of the Amiga ;) ), and represent substantially different hardware and software architectures than you're likely to run into today.

    Just a thought, this may be a bit off-topic from what you're doing -- I don't know if you're looking to do "useful" things with this machine or just tinker.

    -A.

    • Woohoo someone finally mentioned a Miggy. I can relate my story without being entirely off topic. I have proof Miggys still replace Intel based systems. The other day flipping through channels I happened to cross the government access channel. Lo and behold, it was the desktop belonging to none other than an Amiga. Months past that same channel was run by a Windows system. The twist of course is the Miggy has suffered some horrible failure and was outputting an error message to the broadcast. In a retwist an error popping up is the same reason I knew the government access channel was running off a Windows computer. (-1 Useless)

  • Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sethgecko ( 167305 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @03:52PM (#3418109) Homepage
    I have already owned several PPC Macs running MacOS X and many PCs but they still leave me wanting more.

    What leaves you wanting? The OS choices? The processor architectures? Gui's available? Ability to talk to the BIOS via serial console? The coolness factor (hey, look at me, I run an AS/400 in my basement!)...

    Do you just want to be different?

    It's impossible to even begin answering your question without knowing why you're dissatisfied with x86/PPC...

    I'm writing this from a Mac running OS X, which is sitting next to my OS 9 box for photoshop, which is next to my 2 x86 linux boxes for playing quake. My home directory is shared to all via NFS from my x86 freebsd box, which sits on the rack next to an *old* HP-PA box running HP-UX since that's what we run at work, and 2 sparcs running Solaris serving up web pages for no reason other than that Solaris is kewl. Any one of these can do pretty much everything any of the others can do (except for the HP. 80Mhz PA-Risc just don't cut it...)

    Now what, exactly, did you want your workstation to do that it doesn't do now?

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by walt-sjc ( 145127 )
      I have to say "ditto" here.

      The basic reason you don't see much else out there is "economics." It's VERY f-ing expensive to put out a new architecture, especially with all the issue associated with the modern bus speeds. Not to mention the software costs to support all the needed interfaces such as usb, scsi, firewire, video, audio, etc. Is your box going to be PCI? Sbus? What about third party support?

      All the "specialized" processor architectures are dying. All you have to do is look at the workstation market of HP, SGI, & sun. Their sales drop every year (servers are a different story, but percent market share of intel-based boxes is still climbing.)

      Is MUCH more cost effective to go with a fairly standardized architecture that has multiple vendor support, a huge code-base, etc.

      Bang for buck you can't beat an x86 box. Period. We will see what the 64 bit market holds in a couple years, but it's probably going to be AMD / Intel ish...

      So yeah, the intel PC architecture sucks. Interrupt conflicts, legacy ports, god-aweful bios architecture, real / protected mode - blech.
      We can only hope that Hammer / Itanium / etc fixes some of this and doesn't retain the crap "just because it's easier."
    • I got offered an AS/400 320, but I could not run an operating system on it... nor did I want to pay for os/400.

      I'm trying to remember if the guy who offered it to me is the guy I know (he is a CIO) who is trying to convince his boss to pay for a t1 to his house to run a live sync with with their master as/400 unit.... Hmm...
    • I live with a guy who has a working system 38 in his house, now that is cool.
  • jump into the world of 64-bit computing, preferably with an Ebay scavenged alpha or a x86-64 machine, which should be out then (Opteron just hasn't had time to grow on me)

  • Used SGI's (Score:3, Informative)

    by d_p ( 63654 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @03:57PM (#3418139)
    Check out http://www.reputable.com. They sell used SGI systems. You can pick up an O2 or Octane for under $1000.

  • i want my adm3a (Score:3, Funny)

    by dru ( 4742 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @04:18PM (#3418288)

    look around for a used Lear Siglear ADM3a terminal. These things are fun-ky. They support upper & lower case, maximum speed of 9600 baud, are packaged in a case that was the inspiration for the orinal iMac.

    perfect!

  • I have a Blade 100. Of my three desktops (I also use an IBM Thinkpad A20P and a 950Mhz Athlon), it is definitely the slowest for interactive use - terrible graphics performance is the biggest culprit here, even when I use WindowMaker instead of CDE - and really loses the price/performance war to the other two machines.

    If you "need" to have a Sparc machine, it's a nice option for the budget conscious, but I honestly have to say I think you'll be disappointed with it if you want to replace a relatively recent Intel or PPC machine

    You'll have to spend a few more dollars than that to get a RISC workstation that will beat a $1000 Intel machine.

    • I am using a Sun Blade 100 with expert 3d lite graphics card. running solaris 8 gnome 1.4 ...
      I find that the IDE hard disk is tooo slow to keep up with the rest of the box.
      If I had this at home I would get a better SCSI disk drive.
      For normal user stuff Netscape, OpenOffice, Eterm, ... this works just fine.

      :-)

  • Cray XMP or Mac II (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Noodlenose ( 537591 )
    Well, it depends a bit on you budget: from time to time a Cray XMP or YMP pops up [geek.com] (the last one was in ebay germany ca 4 months ago for 15000 $ (without shipping)) and you could not only have a nice and fast machine with a+ geekfactor, but also a nice couch for your livingroom and a nice conversation piece for the next cocktailparty/geekmeeting.

    Or do what I did and get yourself a Apple IIFX(another ex-supercomputer, just a bit cheaper), put a Radius Rocket in it and try running Linux on it.

    If you want it a bit easier, get yourself a IICX and run NetBSD on it (nice and easy).

  • ...but no more... the alpha workstation seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.

  • Tight budget? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @04:44PM (#3418444) Journal
    SGI still makes machines but they don't even list prices. Sun offers the SunBlade 100, for just under a grand and it is a consideration.

    So....you're looking to buy hardware for which you have no need or use, but you're concerned about the price?

    My suggestion is to browse the vintage computer auctions at eBay [ebay.com]. You'll get the same amount of value for it, and it'll be a lot cheaper.

  • I've got an SGI at home... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Rorschach1 ( 174480 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @04:54PM (#3418510) Homepage
    But my 6-year old son hogs it all the time to play Doom. =]

    I don't know if I'd recommend it for a general workstation. I'm running IRIX 6.5.15, and it's as ugly as ever. Haven't loaded up gnome yet.

    It all comes down to application support. If you're just wanting to run normal desktop stuff, forget it. Stick to x86 or Mac. But if it's just out of curiosity and a desire to learn, hit eBay and get yourself a variety. I've got VAXstations, an AlphaStation, a couple of SPARCstations, a NeXTstation, and the SGI. Not to mention the bigger stuff.. a couple of MicroVAXen and a VAX 6000-510. In all, I've spent maybe $1000 on odd hardware, and most of that was for the Alpha and the SGI. The rest were free or under $100. Ok, the VAX wound up costing me a bit for truck rental and medical bills after hauling around 80-pound hard drives, but it was still under $100. And the former owner bought me dinner for hauling it away.

  • Go for a used Sun (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pmz ( 462998 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @04:57PM (#3418537) Homepage
    Take a look at the secondary market of Sun hardware. For less than $1000, you can have an Ultra 2 workstation with SCSI disks and SMP capability. Or you get an older SPARCstation 10 or 20 that still supports SCSI-2 and up to 4 CPUs.

    While these computers won't win CPU2000 flame wars, they really are beautiful machines that have full firmware, super-clean layout, and integrated Ethernet and SCSI. Also, you can run Solaris 8, Linux, NetBSD, and OpenBSD on them. They make great personal workstations (I have KDE on a 40MHz SS10--still usable) or great file or web servers. On top of that, they run forever (my SS10 is now 10 years old). Because they're SCSI, you can put big disks into them (9GB, no problem) and connect external tapes, CDROMs and Zip drives to them. Even the old ones support gobs of ram (at least 512MB). If you can figure it out, the SS10s even have integrated ISDN interfaces.

    In short, they are a joy to work with.

    There are many vendors [sparcprodu...ectory.com], so be sure to get several quotes. Some vendors are arrogant and still think they can charge an arm and a leg for old hardware. Don't let them get you down, because you will find a good price if you are persistent. Also, try eBay or other auctions.
    • Mmm. Having used some of that Sun hardware, I wouldn't recommend paying a non-trivial sum of money (>$50) for anything less than an Ultra 5... I mean, if someone's selling off a Sparc 20 or an Ultra 1 for cheap, sure, but I'd go for at least an Ultra 5 or a 10. the Ultra 2s rather suck.

      Sparc Tip 'o the Week: An Ultra 60, while sounding considerably more impressive than the modest 10, isn't worth much more than a 10 unless it has either the Elite 3D graphics card or dual processors.

      • Re:Go for a used Sun (Score:4, Insightful)

        by pmz ( 462998 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @06:08PM (#3418936) Homepage
        the Ultra 2s rather suck

        Why? They are really well engineered and are solid workhorses. They really aren't expensive, either (unless you buy directly from Sun). Also, an Ultra 2 is a much better workstation than an Ultra 5 or 10, unless you really need a PCI bus.

        An Ultra 60, while sounding considerably more impressive than the modest 10, isn't worth much more than a 10 unless it has either the Elite 3D graphics card or dual processors

        Ultra 60s come with dual-channel UltraSCSI controllers, 4MB cache per CPU, and dual UPA framebuffer slots. Ultra 10s have IDE disks and 2MB cache per CPU. The Ultra 60 also has the CPUs mounted on their own daughter cards, which makes it considerably more flexible than the Ultra 10. They really are different beasts.

    • For info on old Sun hardware, check out Obsolyte.com [obsolyte.com]. I just set up a home firewall with a tiny SparcStation IPX [obsolyte.com]. Not the most high performance server, but it's fun, ya know. :) There's lots of Sun hardware on ebay [ebay.com], but some of it seems overpriced.

  • PS2! (Not PS/2) (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Bistronaut ( 267467 ) on Friday April 26, 2002 @05:26PM (#3418706) Homepage Journal

    In another month, the US version of the Linux kit for the Playstation 2 is coming out. It comes with a hard drive, a VGA monitor connector, a keyboard and mouse and an ethernet adaptor. I already have mine pre-ordered, and I bought the acutal console last week.

    As a side note, be sure to get Grand Theft Auto 3! Oh, the carnage!

  • The briQ is a PowerPC based network appliance computer. Measuring just 5.74 inches wide, 1.625 inches tall and 8.9 inches deep (the size of a CD-ROM drive), it offers developers and OEMs a versatile platform for a wide range of applications and products such as firewalls, routers, security devices and web servers.
    The briQ was designed with versatility in mind and is available with either a PowerPC 750 (G3) or 7400 (G4) processor and are upgradable in both speed and processor type. Storage and memory are also easily upgradable using standard industry components. The briQ also allows the flexibility to run any PowerPC based Linux distribution available.

    Board Picture

    Data Sheet

    Software

    Hardware Specifications

    CPU: PowerPC 750 (G3) or 7400 (G4) - Upgradable CPU module

    Chipsets: Northbridge - IBM CPC710-100+, Southbridge - Winbond W83C553

    Memory: Two 168 DIMM sites, support for up to 512Mb of SDRAM, 3.3V, unbuffered PC-100 SDRAM

    Local Bus: Local 60X bus speed: 100MHz 64-bit

    BootROM/BIOS: Open Firmware, supports remote boot

    Storage: IDE - 44 pin, 2mm connector, up to 40GB internal hard drive

    Serial: 16550C UART (w/FIFO), RS-232 interface, DE-9 connector

    Network: 10/100Base TX Ethernet

    Power Consumption: 15 to 30 Watts

    Expansion: 64-bit, 66MHz PCI connector (custom)

    Front Panel Display: Programmable Vacuum Florescent Display (VFD), 2 X 20 characters Two push button switches, bi-color LED

    Debug and Development: PCPLD ISP, BDM/COP, JTAG

    Dimensions: 5.74 X 1.625 X 8.9 inches

    Weight: From 1.85 pounds

    Software Specifications
    Operating System: PowerPC Linux - Yellow Dog Linux Pre-installed

    Development Environment: GNU C/C++ compiler, Text Editors, Debuggers

    Warranty: One year parts and labor.

    Ordering Information
    briQ w/PowerPC G3 (750) 500MHz, 256MB SDRAM, 10GB HDD - $1,499
    briQ w/PowerPC G4 (7400) 500MHz, 512MB SDRAM, 20GB HDD - $1,999

    Contact Sales Department for other configurations.
    • This isn't a computer, it's a damned network appliance. NAs have their uses, but they're nothing like what we're taling about. And cutting and pasting all that crap from the same site you've just linked to is pretty lame as well.
      • this guy has bunches of machine sitting around presumably networked already. if you run Linux, you can use X from another machine.

        • So you're saying, "It's not a network appliance! It's a workstation you need another workstation to interact with!" Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

          Besides, how is this system at all different from the X86 and PPC systems Aknaton already owns? Aside from being harder to interact with?

          One reason I'm irritated: I read the beginning of your post and thought, "Wow, maybe I can use this to run Mac software without buying a whole Mac." Not even close. This box is of interest to people who need network applicances and want to go the Linux/PPC route. Not a cost effective solution for anybody else.

          Karma whore, karma whore, karma whore!

  • I own a blade 100 (Score:2, Informative)

    by lindsayt ( 210755 )
    It's a nice machine, with a PC motherboard modified only with a Sun northbridge and removed PS/2 connectors (the processor is even socket-370!).
    However, be careful with these because the normal advantage of Suns is their (1) scalability and (2) Tremendous I/O bandwidth. With only one CPU, it's obviously not scaled very far, and the I/O bandwidth just isn't there for the blade 100- it's essentially a PC's 32/33 I/O system, but it's further choked by the fact that the CPU is only 500MHz (or 600, if you buy from sun's ebay store).
    The usual advantages of USII architecture are lost on this system - the slow clock speed is not compensated by large cache, fast I/O, or tremendous scalability. The only reason to buy one (and this is why I own it) is if you are devloping for big Suns and you want binary compatibility with them on your desktop. Go instead for PC hardware with Linux, or if you really want, Solaris x86 (but don't expect binary compatibility with big suns). If you really want a non-pc desktop, shell out the cash for a single-CPU blade 1000 (starts at $6000, but if you're in any way connected with an academic institution you can get it for about $4000.) Otherwise, it's probably not worth it.

    Good luck!

  • What is it you want, then? (Score:3, Funny)

    by stienman ( 51024 ) <adavis@@@ubasics...com> on Friday April 26, 2002 @06:10PM (#3418949) Homepage Journal
    but they still leave me wanting more.

    Leave you wanting more... what? Tuna fish? If you want tuna fish, you're pretty much out of luck. Apple stopped selling tuna fish about the time the Lisa didn't come out, and MS simply refuses to acknowledge tuna compliant systems. No one makes tuna drivers anymore, so you'll be stuck with an old outdated driver on an old outdated OS (or worse, an emulator!) and the hardware stinks. Sure, it smells ok for a day or two, but your friends and SO will leave in a flash if you don't pay the high maintenance costs. Good tuna isn't cheap.

    -Adam
  • I've used several "souped-up" Sun Blade 100's. They are so slooooow it's not even funny. This is with a minimal installation, and I wouldn't even think about running Gnome on it. The Blade 1000's are decent though, albeit more expensive.

    • Depends what you want it for.

      As I've stated elsewhere in the thread, I've got one. What you get for your $995 USD is pretty much the same guts as a Netra X1 (smaller HD and a different bus speed I believe) but much more suitable as a hobbyist's server than a Netra.

      We use Netras extensively at work (they make very nice, reliable, and cheap, web servers especially if you are a Sun reseller) but for my home machine I wanted something that could drive a monitor, accept PCI cards and had a CD-ROM drive. For that reason I gave up the slightly faster bus speed, LOM features and dual NICs of the Netra, in favour of a Blade.

      Yes, if you are looking for a workstation to replace a post-1999 Intel or PPC box you should probably look elsewhere, but if you want a nifty little home server that doubles as a workstation, it's hard to go wrong with a Blade.

    • I have a SunBlade 100 as a database server for some basic Oracle development.

      Runs gnome beta great, havent upgraded the box in ages so I havent loaded the Ximian official.

      Id say upgrade the primary IDE hard drive and memory for the Blade 100, other than that, its a top notch desktop!

      Jarett
  • Why don't you make something from scratch? With everything from transistors to single board "stamp" systems available, pick a level you find entertaining and roll your own. Can you make a working adder from transistors? How about a distrubuted cluster of little embedables. Or if you're really brave, try something analogue.

    If you need a focus, think robotics. Or wearability. Or rocketry. If you don't mind starting over a lot, try to make something that can swim.

    You get the idea.

    -- MarkusQ

  • If I had a few $ to burn on esoteric hardware, I would scourge Ebay and local auction house for second-hand Unix workstation (Sun, SGI, maybe an HP or a RS/6K). Relatively recent box can be had for a few hundred bucks.

  • Used SGIs for the high-quality user experience (Score:4, Insightful)

    by daviddennis ( 10926 ) <david@amazing.com> on Saturday April 27, 2002 @12:52AM (#3419923) Homepage
    Used SGI systems are still fantastic computers, and they're amazingly cheap due to the sad decline of the company. I have an Indigo2 R10000 system that I bought about six months ago for $400 (not including monitor since I already had a SGI monitor). Now you can get an Octane for less then $1,000.

    SGI's main distinction aside from cool case designs is Irix, their Unix-based OS. And the main advantage of Irix is that the user interface is still superior to anything else out there, with the possible exception of Apple. Sun's efforts in this direction were so anemic that they are now switching to Gnome, the same design you'll see under Linux.

    The biggest disadvantage is that you have to beg, borrow or steal the C compiler, which is not free. I've found that most resellers will sneak it on for you if you ask them nicely enough.

    If you don't want to do that, you have to install GCC, which can be an amazing pain.

    My Indigo2 is solid as a rock and hasn't given me a minute of trouble since I bought it. Very cool.

    Greg Douglas of Reputable.com is a great guy, or you can cheap out with eBay.

    This all being said, the Mac running MacOS X is such a compelling option nowadays that it's difficult to ignore. If you want a system you can run Photoshop on AND use as a Unix box, MacOS X is what you really need.

    I run both MacOS X and SGI and love them for what I need them for. Certainly I greatly prefer either to Linux, ans as for Windows, well, let's not go there :-).

    D

  • Check www.reputable.com for some pretty good prices on a used Silicon Graphics Octane workstation (also links for more information). EBay is also an option, but beware of scratch and dent "deals". Octane runs IRIX 6.4 and 6.5. Latest version of 6.5.X can be downloaded from support.sgi.com. Great machine, more than fast enough for me.
  • then you *need* to visit their freeware site... http://freeware.sgi.com. Gobs of freeware (including GNOME and gcc) compiled for IRIX. Site is updated quarterly (as is IRIX 6.5.X at http://support.sgi.com/irix).
  • It must be an itanium.


    Haven't seen any on the cheap yet but they'll start showing up.

  • You can get these things on Ebay fairly inexpensively. If you get a C180 or better it should have the 64-bit PA-8200 processor. The Linux port [parisc-linux.org] is progressing nicely. I'd stay away from the 32 bit machines as they are a bit on the sluggish side. I just recently picked up a C200 for about $200 and it makes a nifty toy to play with.
  • Let me tell you my story, I am typing this from a 180Mhz SGI o2 - This is my main workstation.

    (nb to those who don't know: 180Mhz on something like an SGI is _nothing_ like 180Mhz in the x86 world! The latest o2's are 350Mhz)

    Also in my cabbin are an 200Mhz Alpha (KN15 IIRC) in a DEC 3000/400, a MicroVAX III (KA650-A), and some x86 boxen at 450Mhz and SMP 2x 800Mhz. The DEC gear runs NetBSD, the SGI runs IRIX 6.5 and Linux on the x86s'

    Now, for my point, while there is more guts in the x86 800Mhz for raw kernel compiling, it dosen't much matter to me, all what I do is remote. This may not be the case with you, but for me I want a box with A+ build quality for the workstation that I am at, and when all I am doing is in Nutscrape or SSH the who cares even what OS I am typing from :-)

    (FWIW, IRIX 6.5 is quite comfortable as a desktop box)

    The Best Bit?The SGI o2 I got on ebay for the price I paid for ONE of the CPUs in the x86 800Mhz when it was new. All the DEC gear included and it was still cheaper then building the 800Mhz box :-)

    It's all unix so there is no big deal changing between systems (I don't code low-level enough to notice anyway) - and as for gaming, there are the Dell boxes at work for UT lol

    Seriously tho, to answer the question (this is A/. after all) If you need to compile wild amounts of code or you want to be able to run a massive code base, then run x84, pay your MSFT tax, and install the os-of-choice when you get it home. Upgrade and repeat.

    If your hard core processing is elsewhere, run something that has some Quality in it's build (hardware and software) - it lets you get back to the real reason that you are in front of the box in the first place.

  • Good (dead) old Acorn made some of the best hardware and software of the era. Try a RiscStaion [riscstation.co.uk] and run RiscOS on it. [riscos.com]

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