Portable Ogg Players?

David Frascone asks: "A few months ago, I got a bug up my sphincter and decided to convert all of my MP3 files into Ogg-Vorbis files. I've been pretty happy with the conversion, even though it was supposed to be a bit lossy (I can't hear any difference) . Anyway, now I'm looking for a portable music player that plays Ogg-Vorbis files, and I'm coming up empty. I *really* don't want to have to convert the tunes back to MP3 on the fly to put them onto a portable player. Does anyone know of any ogg players out there?" While Ogg compatibility has been slow to catch on, most of the tools necessary to create a player are already available. However no one has yet taken that final step to update existing MP3 players or to introduce new units with the added functionality and bring them to the market, yet. If someone has info on Ogg-enabled players that may be in the pipe, please let us know.

Hardware manufacturers: If you're reading this, there's a huge demand for you to tap into. If your MP3 players already support fixed point decoding, there is already a software decoder for Ogg that is ready for use from the fine folks over at the Xiph.org:

I get this question every day, and there is no doubt that there is plenty of demand for portable Ogg players. There are a lot of people out in the community that aren't buying portables until they are certain that they can play Vorbis files on them. I can certainly understand this; Vorbis is a superior audio compression codec to mp3, and if people are going to spend money, they want quality and the ability to use a patent-free codec.

Most portable players in the universe don't have a floating-point unit, which is necessary to use the reference decoder that we give away to the world. That's okay, we're familiar with the challenge, and we're now licensing Tremor, which is a fixed-point decoder designed for use on portable devices. Tremor is already working in the wild; tkcPlayer from theKompany uses Tremor to play Vorbis files on the Sharp Zaurus.

So, if you're a hardware manufacturer that wants to include Ogg Vorbis playback on your portable player du jour, please drop me an E-mail to [e-mail]. Don't worry about the huge up-front costs like you're paying with Fraunhofer. We want to work with you to make Vorbis playback a possibility on your machine, and licensing terms are extremely flexible to accommodate small companies (even one-man shops) up to the big guys.

To those who want their portable to play Vorbis files, copy this message to your favorite manufacturer. Also, thanks to the Open Source and Free Software communities for their continued support! If it weren't for Open Source, we wouldn't be able to produce and maintain the best lossy audio compression codec on Planet Earth.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

So if you want Ogg support, you might have to lobby for it.

Have you tried asking various companies?

[embo]

First thing that
I thought of...if you
Really want
Something
That will

Play
Ogg files, I
Should think you could
Try emailing the tech support addresses

of the various companies that currently make MP3 players, and see if they have any plans to support Ogg in the future? I personally own a Neo Jukebox (http://www.ssiamerica.com/), and when I asked them, they said that Ogg support was being worked on. No dates, unfortunately, but at least this could give you an idea what hardware to limit your search to, and will also let companies know that people are interested in an Ogg based player.

Re:Have you tried asking various companies?

[altman]

Erm, the Neo Jukebox will *never* be able to play Oggs. Why? Because it uses a dedicated MP3 decoder chip. There is no audio path except out of this chip. It can never decode anything *but* MP3s.

One reason for OGG not being in portable players (eg, rio 600, nomad II, etc) is that OGG requires more workspace ram than these players have; anything based on the Cirrus 7209 or 7309 CPUs has 37.5k/48k of ram in total - megs of ROM space, obviously, but not enough ram to run OGG. As a comparison, the ARM MP3 decoder takes about 20k ram (inc input & output buffers), and WMA just takes a couple of K more.

However, the Nomad jukebox, iPod, Rio Riot, etc have external DRAM and can run OGG. I have seen a HipZip playing OGGs, but this was an internal build and never got released.

Hugo

Re:Have you tried asking various companies?

[ikeleib]

If almost every other audio format can be done in that little RAM, why can't Ogg? Do you have anything to back up this claim?

Re:Have you tried asking various companies?

[millette]

Actually, the problem is more severe because right now, there is no integer-only ogg decoder available for free. Lots of mp3 players don't have a floating point unit, and there's the rub.

What is very needed at this time is complete/frozen specifications that anyone can use to write a free decoder using only integer instructions.

Flac!!

[mojo-raisin]

So, while we're at it, how about a player that can handle the lossless compression format flac [sf.net]. I have all my CDs converted to flac, and am holding out for a portable player (preferably >15GB) that can play flac files and read ID3v2 tags. *That* would be nirvana.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Flac!!

[repoleved]

A flac player already exists [sixpak.org], and your link [sourceforge.net] (if you had followed it yourself) says so at the top.

Re:Flac!!

[pangloss]

except the phatbox/music keg is a car player that needs a compatible head unit to operate--and i think the original poster is looking for a portable in the iPod sense.

i'd love to see an iPod-like (and sized) flac player. 10 gigs would suit me fine.

Re:Flac!!

[198348726583297634]

I agree!

Also, a 20 gig iPod would be nice.

players

[Vodak]

I don't think you'll have any luck with finding a commercail player that will play the things. We as geeks were lucky enough when normal people(aka tech idiots) were so into mp3s that they demanded players.

Re:damn, here comes the rant....

[pauldy]

Speaking of bugs he hardly deserved that thrashing. I kinda thought bit lossy was pretty funny.

Your trashing him for not being unable to tell the difference between the original and compressed versions discounts the possibility that his brain is just better at filling in those holes and missing pieces than yours might be. This may make the experience quite pleasurable to him whereas you might find it very unpleasant.

Also you use this factoid of a 128kbps sound source which you should know, judging by the corrections you so roughly made, is not an accurate meter for judging a systems ability to reproduce the original sound wave.

I agree that was kind of lame of him to convert from mp3 to ogg with the only reasoning being the apparent perceived bragging rights, which he even uses in this post, about how all his CDs are in ogg. You do realize it is even lamer for you to talk down to him because he is not as 37337 as you.

Now the question you should ask is; why is a sun codemonkey making a post like this? Obviously working for large fortune 500 companies has taught him nothing about ROI and how that relates to hardware manufactures and how long it will be till they see a profit and thus look at making improvements to an existing product line. Reworking how they currently do things cost money and in a perceived economic lull they are unlikely to take any huge jumps.

My guess is that you will see the ogg players first in the high end mp3 hardware (like the iPod) causing mp3 only hardware to drop making it difficult to move the more expensive units as Joe nobody hasn't the faintest about the differences between ogg and mp3. He just knows he can download music off the Internet put it in this device and listen to it like a cd "cool".

Course that's just my two cents take it or leave it shove it or sheave it.

Re:damn, here comes the rant....

[tps12]

I agree that was kind of lame of him to convert from mp3 to ogg with the only reasoning being the apparent perceived bragging rights, which he even uses in this post, about how all his CDs are in ogg. You do realize it is even lamer for you to talk down to him because he is not as 37337 as you.

Hehe, you don't know who you're talking to. Whomever is 37337, it is certainly not me...never got the hang of IRC, probably having my box hacked right now, use Windows at work, etc. I do not have a single .ogg file, nor do I understand why I would want to. It was, in fact, as a non-37337 that I was responding: clearly the OP has as much experience [points] as I do in these matters.

If the Free Software community focusses on these kinds of superficial goalse.g., convincing people to convert their mp3's to ogg'sthen Linux and BSD will end up just as much laughingstocks as Windows is currently. If people understand Free Software, they will want it; I am convinced of that. The correct approach is not to fool them into using Free alternatives, it is to educate them.

Thanks for giving it to me straight, and rock on through the ages. That goes for everyone, actually, Win and Lin users alike: rock and roll till you pass the fsck out, this party's groovin' and it's just getting started. RnR will never die, and Real Men Rock. Peace, I'm out.

Re:damn, here comes the rant....

[pauldy]

The point you make there is very true. However, if you came up with a way of doing something that was better than anyone had ever done it before would you not feel obligated to spread this information so others could benefit from it? This is the basis behind most all Open Source Software development. These people really enjoy what they do and are passionate about what they work on. Now would you fault them for being excited about what they are doing and wanting to share this excitement with others? This is the true free software community and expecting them to represent themselves in a way that is conducive to our mass consumption mentalities may be asking a bit much.

This should not however be construed as my support for Ogg Vorbis compression. I feel it is better in many ways but, it doesn't currently fit into many peoples lifestyle and as such it is better suited as a platform for spurring further development into audio compression in hopes of delivering a compression codec that is on an order of magnitude better vs. the 10% smaller 50% better quality you see quoted in so many places with the later being almost a purely subjective term.

I do agree 100% here in that we should not make the mistake of using the passion of an open source developer as guides to how we should be living our lives. After all just because they understand the complexities of the mathematical problems they solve with computing doesn't mean they automatically have the comforts of a well-balanced life.

Re:damn, here comes the rant....

[tps12]

I'm with you every step there. My POV is, basically, there were lots of reasons to switch from .gif to .png, but not really many to switch from .jpeg to .png. And switching from .mp3 to .ogg seems more like the latter. That's just my impression. And the ogg advocacy is putting the cart before the horse, because, while it could grow into a really great audio codec, it hasn't yet, AFAIK, so the hype should let up a bit. I do understand that they're trying to generate income, so maybe the hype is unavoidable. But that is, IMO, all the more reason to take it with a grain or two of salt. My 2 cents.

do you have a laptop?

[repoleved]

I've been using mine as a portable mp3/ogg player for quite a while now by leaving the laptop on while on the move. this might be a bit dangerous because of the risk of the hard drive head crashing, but I haven't had any trouble so far (fingers crossed). I take extra care not to bang or jostle the laptop while it is on, and in addition the laptop is contained in a soft carrying case. This case has been modified to make it easier for the laptop's fan to push air out of the carrying case to keep heat down. meanwhile, I'm saving up for an iPod or something similar (or maybe a Zaurus) , so that i won't have to do this anymore.

PDA?

[carbon60]

With the speed/capacity of modern PocketToy^H^H^HPC based devices, would they make good software based players?

sharp zaurus

[frankmu]

get the sharp zaurus, and a 128 SD card to go with it.

Re:sharp zaurus

[egghat]

Cab you say anything about the sound quality?

Acceptable? Good? Bad?

TIA

egghat.

Ogg spec controversy

[bluegreenone]

Given the recent controversy [slashdot.org] with Ogg's specification or lack thereof, it is very possible that portable music companies will shy away from the Ogg format. Their reasoning could be that without a spec it is too difficult to incoporate Ogg into their player, or because they suspect Xiph will do something funny with Ogg's free status.

Re:Ogg spec controversy

[autocracy]

What - like what the MP3 people did with their licenses?

Here's a reason...

[tincho_uy]

http://www.kuro5hin.org/print/2002/4/25/212840/001 is an interesting article explaining some problems with vorbis, basically due to the lack of a complete specification of the format.

Ogg player

[Medevo]

Ogg is a relativly new technology, and open source, so history should teach us that we still need to wait a few years before us 'geeks' convince the rest of the world (including the markiting directors at companies that make music players) that OGG is a viable and useful format.

Just because MP3 is popular doesnt mean that it is the standard for all time!

Medevo

Programming for an iPod

[LowellPorter]

Apple's iPod runs a stripped version of OSX. I think it might be possible to take on of the open source ogg vorbis player, and port it to MacOS X, and then figure out a way to make it run on an iPod. If it's powerful enough to play .mp3s then it should do Ogg-vorbis