Legal Issues for Outside Webcams and Others Privacy? 57
Jesse Ferrell asks: "My neighbors are asking for me to remove my (weather) web cams from my website because they show part of their houses. Is there any legal precedent to a case like this? I can point the cameras upwards towards the sky more (they are weather cams of course) but it will take time and equipment, possibly modifications to my house. Have you ever heard of a similar situation? What should I do? I'll check the local ordinances and see what I come up with."
There is no problem (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:There is no problem (Score:5, Informative)
1) Identify the area that is exposed to the camera.
2) Walk into view of the camera.
3) Expose undergarments (make it look unintentional, yet non-random)
4) The other person in the house captures the image from the web site.
5) Call a lawyer.
None of this is fun and games. If the law upholds his right to have the camera, then who is to say that government "weather" cameras can't be trained in on someone's house, "coincidentally".
I am in favor of the right to point and shoot any thing I want, but let's think of the ramifications that a judgment in this area might have.
Re:There is no problem (Score:1)
Now, you could take the advice of many below and fashion cardboard cutouts to block the view of the nieghbor's house (this would probably be simple and seems likely to appease the neighbors). You could tell your neighbor to take a flying leap (I recommend consulting a lawyer in your area first, though... if your webcam is illegal in your area-- and different cities/states may well have different laws-- you could be liable for damages and court costs if you lose your case). You could move the cameras so they don't show the neighbor's house at all. You could get a different hobby altogether.
My own personal opinion as a citizen is that if I don't want someone to see inside my house I pull the shades. I have no right to prevent them from viewing or photographing the outside of the house unless they can be shown to be violating a copyright in doing so.
If I have a webcam that shows me my yard (which I have done so that I could monitor it while I am at work-- damn kids wreck my gardens, it would be nice to catch one in the act), but also happens to show me the house across the street or the one next door then tough bounce-- I'm not going to subvert my own right to monitor my property because someone else thinks they have some sort of privacy rights. Of course, I do consider it a form of harrassment (and would not condone) to be setting up a camera in such a way that it can see parts of my neighbors property that I could not normally see (i.e. putting a camera up on a pole to see over a privacy fence--- which would be very different from having an obvious 2nd story window out of which I could easily see over the fence).
Why bring up legal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why bring up legal? (Score:2)
But why be a bastard about it. (Score:5, Insightful)
They aren't asking anything unreasonable.
Re:Why bring up legal? (Score:1)
I haven't read all the articles in this thread, but a large question is how much of the neighbors house is showing up in the pics. If your camera is capable of seeing people coming and going from their front door, it's a lot more of an issue than if you have a small portion of their roof line.
If your cameras are fixed position, considering using software to black out the portion they find offensive, and see if that flies with them.
While I agree it's best to get along with the neighbors, I doubt there are any laws that explicitly state that it's illegal to photograph anything you can see from your window. Well, unless you happen to be near Area 51.
--jcwren
It's legal unless there is a local ordinance (Score:5, Insightful)
But he might just be asking for a curtesy, maybe he likes walking around naked in his apartment and doesn't want his co-workers looking at the web page obsesively trying to get a good look. Maybe just positioning it differently will appease him. If you live in a co-op with him he might be able to get you to take it down entirely by appealing to the board. Besides curtesy is underrated, if you can make him happy without ruining the camera view why not?
There might also be a technological solution, blur the portions of the images that show windows before sending them out as a web cam.
Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance (Score:3, Insightful)
The cams (one [weathermatrix.net] and two (the one in question, I suspect) [weathermatrix.net]) probably wouldn't show that unless he was up at the windows flashing the whole street.
Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance (Score:2)
Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance (Score:2, Insightful)
The resolution and lighting makes it impossible to see in his window. Just sounds like he is being a pain in the ass.
Re:It's legal unless there is a local ordinance (Score:2)
I'm sure the windows are more visible at night.
Panasonic Unitized Cameras (Score:4, Insightful)
While such cameras are expensive (approx. US$1500), and provide aanalog RS-170 video which would have to be digitized, and not exactly "web" cams, if you point your cam at a fixed point, perhaps you could use software to blur out any of your neighbors' windows or other "sensitive" areas.
I'd talk to a lawyer, find out what you can do (probably a lot, unless you're shooting into their windows, or fenced-in yard), and then suggest reasonable blurring of possibly sensitive portions. IOW, offer to go above and beyond what you have to do, as a gesture of goodwill, and it this isn't good enough, send them a lawyers' letter to stop the harassment.
better idea (Score:2, Funny)
Cardboard cutout to block the neighbors house. 5 cents.
Options (Score:1)
But really, if you're in the US, it's very unlikely that your neighbors have any legal ground to support their request. In fact, it's legal in most places to videotape people nude in the shower if you can see them from your property. I don't know if you can have friends over for beer and pretzels to watch those tapes, but I assume so. IANAL.
On the other hand, how important is it to you to keep good relations with your neighbors, and is it worth a whole lot of intra-neigbor unpleasantness to keep the houses in the frame?
You could always use webcam software which overlays a transparent graphic over their houses, if the views never change. There's plenty of it available. Google search: webcam software overlay graphics [google.com]
As a courtesy ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Potential solutions:
1) mount the camera on the roof. This should get you better clearance.
2) Cut a silhouette and place in front of the camera. That way you can make people think you live somewhere more exciting (that was NOT intended as a cheap shot at your town).
3) Mount the cameras at your local school. Give the kids something to ooh and aah about, do something good for your community, appease your neighbors, and get that warm fuzzy feeling all in one.
Have a better one.
Re:As a courtesy ... (Score:1)
And expose the sensitive electronics to the wind and dirt and so on, even more than they are now.
2) Cut a silhouette and place in front of the camera.
And defeat the whole purpose of having the camera in place.
3) Mount the cameras at your local school.
And have to deal with the local school board's bureaucracy and policies and petty whatevers, not to mention lose control of your own project.
None of the options seem particularly appealing, somehow...
be nice (Score:1)
It depends on where they're pointing (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of their perceived problem probably arises from what they think you're going to be able to see.
I don't think I'd be too impressed with a webcam that offers a perfect view into my bedroom, for example.
Probably the best way of resolving this is to show them what the view that the camera gets is. They can then tell you which bits they're not happy about and you can potentially come to a mutually agreeable solution.
Having had a look at the site, I'm guessing that it's cam #2 [weathermatrix.net] that's causing the issue. All it really needs is to be tilted up by a couple of degrees more to get those windows on the bottom left out of the picture.
In cases such as this it is always better to try to talk about it rationally before getting all litigious. From a legal standpoint, you'll probably end up being forced to tilt the camera up a couple of degrees. The difference will be that it'll be after a drawn out process which will alienate you from your neighbours and the only people profitting will be the lawyers.
Here in the UK, we have rights under the Data Protection Act to a copy of any video footage involving us (eg CCTV) and for our faces to be obscured if the footage is distributed without our permission. This usually only applies to footage that is stored on tape etc so webcams would be a bit of a grey area anyway (although the courts would probably say that the neighbours have the right to their privacy).
Re:It depends on where they're pointing (Score:2)
If that was my house it would bother me. It might be illegal and it might not -- that shouldn't matter to you nearly as much as offending your neighbor. The biggest cause for alarm on their part is that the windows are visible. Perhaps you can't see in them, but at a minimum you could monitor the lighting and try to infer when they are and aren't home.
Regardless of the law, be a good neighbor and respond to their request. You don't have to take the webcam down, just make sure their house isn't in the picture. You can do this one of two ways: tilt the camera or block the line of sight to their house with a blinder.
You should also go talk to them in person and explain that your only interest in webcams is as weathercams, that you showed their house only incidentally and meant no offense, and that you respect their request and will comply.
It depends on what others can see (Score:2)
C'mon, we're geeks here. We should all be aware of the untoward possibilities of "feature creep".
is chivalry dead? (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't resort to hiding behind the word of law. Be proactive and keep the peace. you might get a little more respect from them in the future when something gets under your skin.
Let /. be the judge (Score:1)
Re:Let /. be the judge (Score:1)
No legal round (Score:2)
However, if they have built a wall around their yard for privacy, and your camera is such that it can see over their wall, they might have better legal grounds.
However, despite the legal grounds, you may want to keep on good terms with your neighbors. Since your camera is in fixed position, a certain part of what it videorecords will always be yard, another (higher) part will be sky. Simply black out the yard part with some software. I don't know of what software may do this, but its a relatively simple thing -- you just black out say the lower fourth of what your webcam records, which is ground anyways and not sky.
Webcam viewing others' property (Score:3, Insightful)
The core issue here, regarding the weather webcam, is what is the right thing to do, and I don't really see any doubt: the original post mentions that it is possible, though inconvenient, to reposition the cameras, and actually implies that repositioning the cameras would provide a better picture of the weather. Just do it.
There is another issue with webcams that I think needs to be pointed out: consider that the weirdest people may view your webcam. For example, if you have a webcam that shows the traffic on your street, and the picture includes the sidewalk, a pedophile could use the webcam to profile when the local schoolkids walk to school, and to get a nice look to decide which one to abduct. Yes, it's extremely unlikely, but how would you feel the next day if that happened?
Also, someone wrote:
>> In fact, it's legal in most places to videotape people nude in the shower if you can see them from your property.<<
I didn't see the usual "IANAL" disclaimer, but let me be clear on this: I am a lawyer, and I am quite certain that it WOULD be illegal (in California, at least, and probably in nearly ever U.S. state) to set up a webcam that peers into the neighbor's shower, even through an open window (note my shift from "videotape" to "webcam"). You might be legally able to videotape the neighbor in his shower, for example, to create evidence that your neighbor is indecently exposing himself to your family (one would assume that you'd not need to do this just to support of your request to the neighbor that he install a curtain or blinds). But you could not legally videotape your neighbor in the shower and show it to others for entertainment.
Public places, expectation of privacy. (Score:4, Insightful)
That being said - video recording laws are being changed, but in most states, right now, you can record pretty much anything to video (NOT AUDIO) in any place, public or private with few exceptions.
If want to stand your ground, you might at least try to be courteous and safe. Point out that your camera doesn't see into private yards, and through windows. Point out that everything you can see on camera can be seen by a person from a similar vantage point, and that they have no reasonable expectation of privacy from a person, camera, or any viewing device similarily mounted.
Once you've done that, change the view anyway and very subtly imply that any view that includes them is ruined, or you've seen all of them that you care to see. Or you could be really mean and publish as much info about them on your page as is legally allowed, maybe some extra pictures, notes about their appearance and behavior. That'll get them really riled up.
You might want to think about the flip side, though. Right now some thief could be watching their coming/going and making a schedule of when they are home, when they aren't, how they typically secure their home, etc. It could be some pedophile sitting in front of their computer waiting to see when their kid is home.
You ought to ask yourself, do you value your privacy in public places? Do you like the idea of video cameras everywhere? Perhaps these neighbors are avid readers of Slashdot and they love the YRO section. They may simply be expressing their desire for more public privacy.
-Adam
Re:Public places, expectation of privacy. (Score:1)
If you want the weather stick your head out the window.
Just mask them out. (Score:1)
Cheap Solution: Image Pre-Processing (Score:3, Insightful)
Either mask out the scenery in the foreground, or blur it beyond recognition.
The merge between your background image (the "live" picture) and a foreground image would probably be easiest. That or do a poly-fill on known coordinates from a command line. GNUplot could almost do that.
But, in the interest of being a good neighbor, unplug, or stop publishing the camera pix, until you have a permanent solution.
Don't piss your neighbors off. If your house catches fire or is burgled while you're away, they may pull up deck chairs and watch, rather than telephoning for help.
rascals (Score:1)
Proud of the slashdotter's responses. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Proud of the slashdotter's responses. (Score:2, Funny)
This is foolish! (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It's time to grow up and behave like a civilised human living in close proximity to other civilised humans.
Re:This is foolish! (Score:1)
I thought the same thing. I don't know specifically what he's talking about, but without more detail, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Ask Slashdot from this guy was "I can't change channels on my TV because I'd have to get up off the sofa to reach the remote - what should I do?"
Re:This is foolish! (Score:1)
How about....
plug a tv tuner into your bewoulf cluster and use that instead
watch tv from your computer and ssh/ssl into it but not telnet unless you are using kerberos and vlans on your switch behind an OpenBSD/Linux/toaster firewall.
blah, blah, blah, etc...............
It will get even lower mentioning aliens, grits and all things petrified. Moderators will down these posts so fast it will seem like they are being sucked into a karma blackhole.
Of course you can just get up and get it yourself but that isn't geeky enough. Please try to be geekier for the sake of being geekier.
Dude (Score:1)
They have the legal advantage. You legally cannot take someones picture and publish without consent. You know do not have consent. If I were you I would stop whinning and remove the camera.
Oh and god forbid don't point it in your shower. We don't need another one of those. Especially a nerd one!
Re:Dude (Score:2)
>and publish without consent.
You can if it is "news", or incidental to "news"
(there are a bunch of other exceptions as well)
Weather is probably "news"
You are probably OK legally, but I'd try a technical fix so as to avoid a lifetime of bad feelings.
Re:Dude (Score:1)
Are you a lawyer? It doesn't matter if you are or not. I am intitled to my opinion.
You would know that if you were a lawyer so I guess that answers my question.
A solution? (Score:1)
Yeah, whatever.. (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, whatever.. (Score:1)
And I can't understand how people can't understand the difference. :-)
First, there's permenance to photographic images (digital or analogue, still or moving) that's not there in a person's memory. Second, a photograph can be copied, or shown to others, while a memory can't. Third, a camera can be easily set to watch you 24/7, while personal surveillance takes a lot of time and effort. Fourth, a camera can be concealed much more easily than a human watcher.
As far as Brin's idea of a "transparent society", it rests on the fundamental misapprehension that the masses will keep authorities from abusing the right of minorities (racial, cultural, or ideological). But the masses are often the ones calling for a crackdown on those outsiders". You can't rely on the majority to protect the right of the minority; you have to set up rules ahead of time.
Why not just mask with an overlay (Score:2)
-- Tim
What I would do (Score:1)
If they really have a problem with the cameras, get a smoked dome or even better a mirror (blind the bastards that try to see where the camera is pointed) or point out the fact that you are not being incedulous by using a smoked or mirror dome to disguise the fact the camera is pointed skyward and not pointed through their bathroom window at the mirror which catches the reflection of a large picture of great aunt martha which also reflects a few of the neighbor's little johnny wacking off on the toilet.
Your neighbors have watched too much CSI or The agency and saw too many times where "MOVIE PHOTOSHOP" was capable of pulling a relfection of a face out of the reflection of a black wall off a pair of sunglasses. It simply isnt done with color cameras, the resolution is just way too low. Hell you couldnt even get your camera to totally fill up my 600x480 laptop screen much less blow away the res my friend's photoshop studio screens. You can possibly do it with very ultra hi-res black and white models like what is used on the sattlites of your favorite goverments at http://terraserver.microsoft.com/
I suggest you find a view of their home at terraserver and tell them to attack the goverment first, as they show their whole roof, and all of their yard.
DRACO-