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Linux Software

Lindows - What do Linux Users Really Think? 87

Posted by Cliff from the the-great-slashdot-product-poll dept.
Harry asks: "Last week I had a laps in judgement and subscribed to the Lindows Insider program. After playing with Lindows for a few days, I decided that Lindows was not worth my trouble and un-subscribed from the program. When I did so, I mentioned my disappointments and requested that they take a survey on Slashdot to see what Linux users really thought of their product. They stated they did and received 'great results and mostly positive feedback.' After having a chance to play with Lindows, I can not believe this to be true. So, my question is: What do Linux users really think of Lindows and will they support it?" I'm not aware of any such poll (maybe I missed it) and I don't remember many glowing reviews from our previous stories on Lindows. So maybe it's time to get the answer straight from the horses' mouth. Do you think Lindows is worth it?
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Lindows - What do Linux Users Really Think? More

Lindows - What do Linux Users Really Think?

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  • Now I can root your box in record time!

  • root (Score:2, Informative)

    by Per Wigren ( 5315 )
    Running your whole system as root is a BAD thing! I don't know if this has changed since the first preview-release, but to have no choice but to run as root is a crazy desicion!
    Lindows will be/is a security nightmare!

    IMHO, the only good thing that can come out of Lindows is if they contribute some of their patches to WINE or Rewind...
    • Tens of millions of Windows 9X boxes are effectively running as root. Despite the viruses and trojans, the computing world is still intact.

      This can be used as a baby-step into the Linux world for many Windows users. If they can get away from using IE and MS-Office, and to start thinking that the program isn't as important as the data, it's a big step forward for Linux.

      • Most single-user 2000 machines are also logged on as Administrator, because there are some things you can't do as a different username, even if that user is an administrator (but not Administrator with a capital A).
      • Ever notice how easy it is to break Windows? Like ignorant lusers deleteing files because they don't underatand the importance of said file?
        • Uhm... rm -f /boot/vmlinuz; rm -f /bin/login ?

          It's not really hard on *nix either...
          • Yes, but you have to do that as root. And most distros make it easier to login as a normal user, and prompt for creation of a user account.
        • I've broken my RedHat box by installing things improperly. During the learning curve, I tried to install the upgraded NVidia drivers, and ended up blowing away X. All kinds of not-fun.

          As for blowing away the OS... that's not a big deal. Just reinstall. (It's inconvenient, but not catastrophic.) For systems that haven't been tweaked heavily, it's the user directories that tend to have the really important data.

    • I don't really agree. I think that the most important aspect of Lindows will that it allows users without Unix familiarity to use it. It isn't about runing Windows programs as much as it is to take the guesswork out of permissions and compiling programs from sources. It will (hopefully) allow users to access precompiled RPMS from the Lindows site that will work without a hitch. It allows them to easily use an integrated updater. It takes the need to spend a day configuring away.

      Perhaps that is my only complaint about something like Lycoris. Configuring sych a system is a pain, because a lot of the tools are gone! Stripped from the OS. Lindows may very well be this way too, but there are a lot of people looking for this functionality. Power it up and go. Browse the web or play some solitaire. Check your email or write a report. I don't know how successful Lindows will be, but it is already succeeding at things that no other Linux distribution has accomplished. It is making its way to inexpensive PCs, designed for the consumer looking for a value (despite being obtained through an obscure method, like Wal-Mart's website). I am not sure what it will do for the Linux community, but it doubt that it is negatively going to impact those "geeky" distributions. It doesn't really matter, does it? There will still be a planet full of devoted people trying to make Linux better for the good of all of us. At least Lindows will take another person out of the MS line of fire. People don't need Microsoft, but they do need an easy to use alternative that doesn't have a huge learning curve. Such a soultion is essential, as it provides a flavor of Linux for those people that need something less complex, but just a stable and powerful. And it is possible with today's Linux. Linux is for everyone. We can't keep alienating the rest of the people for not being interested in computer stability and security. Eventually, they will see the benefits of free software, and the drawbacks of being locked into Microsoft's iniative. No doubt, if MS weren't there, someone else would do the same thing, but at least there is an alternative, and it needs to be easily accessible and easy to use.

      I personally will stick to Slackware, but I could see myself installing Lindows on my parents' and co-workers' computers.

  • If they can make money of it - its worth it. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by arcade ( 16638 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @08:09AM (#3761628) Homepage
    If Lindows can make money on selling Lindows, its worth it. It doesn't matter what I think. I will probably not touch it.

    If they make money of it, some of those money will get funneled back into the community. If they don't make money of it, well, it'll give the difficult linux crowd some more bad publicity when it comes to 'how difficult we are to make money of' - but that really doesn't bother me.. :-)
    • If they make money of it, some of those money will get funneled back into the community.

      At the price of credibility ? Lindows will not do Linux any favors as far as credibility goes. Windows applications crashing (and they will) will be blamed on the OS, not the distribution, same for security issues. We can see now, even before they release a final product, that Lindows DOES NOT play well in the free software community.

      Lindows is a poison pill for Linux as far as public perception goes.

  • One of the great features about Linux is that it has nothing to do with Windows. I'm not even gonna touch Lindows with a stick!
    • You want to be totally untainted by Evil Bill? Then you're still too close with Linux. There are similarities in desktop design, not to mention emulation layers like Wine.

      I'd suggest MacOS, but even they've been comprimised. Most Macs are sold with 101 keyboards these days. And guess who's the leading app software vendor for the platform?

      You need an OS that was discontinued before it had a chance to be influenced by the Redmond Horror. I've got an Apple II I'll let you have real cheap!

      • You need an OS that was discontinued before it had a chance to be influenced by the Redmond Horror. I've got an Apple II I'll let you have real cheap

        If you had integer basic replaced with AppleSoft, you're tainted.

      • "I'd suggest MacOS, but even they've been comprimised. Most Macs are sold with 101 keyboards these days. And guess who's the leading app software vendor for the platform?"

        Better than that, why don't you go out and try to find a commadore 64!
      • I've already got an Apple II someone gave me. What I don't have is any software, manuals, previous experience with any kind of Apple, or much of a clue what to do with it (although if someone gave me one of those O'scope things for it that I used to see advertised in RE and PE I know exactly what I'd want to do with it), or a lot of money to spend buying stuff for it. Any (polite) suggestions?
      • "You want to be totally untainted by Evil Bill? Then you're still too close with Linux. There are similarities in desktop design, not to mention emulation layers like Wine."

        That is only true depending on your CHOICE of desktop. There are quite a few desktops available for Linux/Unix that are very unlike Windows. At least you have a choice, it seems that Windows users are stuck with Explore for the most part.

        As far as Wine, you don't have to run it. Hell, you don't even have to install it and Linux runs just fine.

        The only way I can see that your still too close to "Evil Bill" is the memory of Xenix.

  • Yeah ... sure.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by reaper20 ( 23396 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @08:16AM (#3761655) Homepage
    'great results and mostly positive feedback.'

    Nice marketing spin ... I'm sorry, but I just don't see Lindows being successful. Do I even consider Lindows Linux? Not really.

    Does any sane Linux user think that a distribution where the user runs with root priviledges is a good idea? No. When I read this I though it was some kind of joke. Just what we need, users hosing their own system because their distributor not only gave them a loaded gun, but put it in their mouth for them.

    Let's have a look at their FAQ Section:
    The Lindows.com Insider program is designed to be exclusive to the individual that signs up. As an Insider member, we ask that you not distribute copies of the LindowsOS to other individuals and that you abide by the end user license agreement that comes with our software.

    Cluestick - If we wanted crappy licensing agreements, we would be running Windows.

    There are two types End User License Agreements:

    1. A "Family" End-User

    This license if for an individual end-user and he/she agrees to use LindowsOS for personal use and is to be used only by members of the End-User's Family.

    2. A "Business" End-User

    This type of license is for an agreed upon number of simultaneous users or seats(computer systems), but not both.

    You can read the EULA (End User License Agreement) in its entirety here.

    Cluestick: Once again, if I get stuck with these contstraints, (let's call this, non-free), then why am I using Lindows? Linux is about freedom (speech, not beer), why am I tying myself down like this? This is Caldera-think. If my enterprise runs Linux, I just want to pay $X a year to Suse/Redhat/IBM for support. Sitting there counting boxes to figure out how many licenses you should pay for is a big reason to avoid close source software in the first place.

    Lindows.com respects all applicable licensing and is proud to be a strong supporter of the Open Source community by helping to advance several Open Source initiatives. We are financially supporting several open source organizations.

    Cluestick: Wine, anything else? You can't just say 'strong supporter of the Open Source Community.' Hell, I'm sitting here drinking a soda, I think of myself as a strong supporter too. Compare this with, let's say Redhat: Off the top of my head. Gnome, Apache, Mozilla, and gcc. That's a strong supporter of the OSS community.

    Anyone else disappointed with the Walmart 'win' this company gained? No thanks, my vote is for "this company does not represent Linux or the Linux community".
    • Wine, anything else?

      They're sponsering Debconf in Toronto next week. The irony of this is, erm, interesting.
      • No kidding? I'm going to Debconf! Cool. Maybe I can suck up some free Lindows cdroms and give them away at work. Mini-frisbees! Unfortunately cdroms make poor coffee coasters.

        I think promoting Lindows at Debconf is somewhat more severe than "Preaching to the choir." People who run Debian (like me) don't need a simplified version of Linux. Shit I still use dselect.
    • Cluestick: Wine, anything else? You can't just say 'strong supporter of the Open Source Community.' Hell, I'm sitting here drinking a soda, I think of myself as a strong supporter too. Compare this with, let's say Redhat: Off the top of my head. Gnome, Apache, Mozilla, and gcc.


      I don't see why a pretty good windows emulator is less worthy than a not-very-good bloatware browser (that's Mozilla).


      Once again, if I get stuck with these contstraints, (let's call this, non-free), then why am I using Lindows? Linux is about freedom (speech, not beer), why am I tying myself down like this? This is Caldera-think. If my enterprise runs Linux, I just want to pay $X a year to Suse/Redhat/IBM for support. Sitting there counting boxes to figure out how many licenses you should pay for is a big reason to avoid close source software in the first place.
      Why are you using Lindows? Because you are a home user who doesn't give a shit about Stallman and Linus and GPL vs BSD, but who does want an easy to use system that lets them run their old windows apps.


      And, no, Linux is not about freedom as in speech. It's about freedom as in being able to run Unix without spending money on a sun/ibm/hp/sgi machine. That's what it's always been about.

      Just what we need, users hosing their own system because their distributor not only gave them a loaded gun, but put it in their mouth for them.


      Whereas if we _just_ gave them a loaded gun, that would be fine? Oh I forgot, all users are stupid. That's why windows is such a failure of an OS - the users keep accidentally dragging their c: drive into the wastebin and hosing their system.

  • A poll? Of course there's a poll (Score:4, Informative)

    by alnapp ( 321260 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @08:25AM (#3761674) Homepage
    Look here [slashdot.org] and the winner is "Apathy" not strong "pro" or strong "hate", just plain, boring apathy.

  • Lindows (Score:4, Interesting)

    by kzadot ( 249737 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @08:41AM (#3761706)
    People are going to get this thing, thinking its finally a version of linux that runs windows apps well. But its not! Its reputation will affect linux too. I wish it never came about. What is wrong with debian? Theres lots of other points I hate about Lindows, its name, the way it charges to download free software, debian does this already but it works better and its free! I also hate the way it runs as root.
    I believe this is a Microsoft project actually, to get people going away from linux and back to windows.
    I hate it so much, I slam it every chance I get to people who ask me about linux.

    • The only problem with Debian is that it is a little too hard to install and configure, even for some more-than-average users.
      Lindow's target is quite different from Debian's one.

      Anyway, there are lots of distros who are easyer than Debian, like Mandrake, that can be used by any user, and I'm afraid that they work way better than lindows.

      • I agree. Debian is not for the technologically challenged, unless you can get somebody to pre-install it for you. I have used it, well always I guess. Back in '93 when I started using Linux I think there was Debian, Slackware, and Yggdrasil. I picked Debian since I could get it by ftp and have used it ever since. It still stumps me occasionally but there is plenty of documentation and helpers out there. It is an excellent hobbyist system for sure.

        Lindows is targeted at, well, I'm not exactly sure, but I read I think last week that Wally-Mart is selling cheap PC's with Lindows. Heck if you're gonna wipe the drive and install Debian or Mandrake anyways might as well save a few bucks.
      • Debian is easier than all those cruddy rpm based distros for one main reason. apt-get handles dependancies while the rpm does not. Users of rpm based distros regularly have what I call the dependancy nightmare, particulalry when the rpm you want to install is not from exactly the same rpm based distro as you wish to install it on. One often has to chase down a dozen or so obscure libs just to satisfy the needs of some other obscure lib.

        This is why Debian has the well deserved reputation for ease of use and user friendliness by the sort of people that have actually moved on from the first distro they try.

        This is also reinforced by the fact that in fact debian installs are less likely to need manual post install configuration due to hardware than rpm based distros.

  • What's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Spudley ( 171066 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @08:47AM (#3761730) Homepage Journal
    I haven't tried Lindows yet, and to be honest, I'm not likely to - it's not aimed at me (nor, I think, at the majority of Slashdot readers). The people it is aimed at are current Windows users who want an option they can switch to with as little hassle as possible, and the ability to continue to run their existing software. And from what I've heard, it does that admirably.

    I have a friend who slots very nicely into that category, and he has just installed Lindows on his PC. He loves it. He loves that it took less effort to install even than Windows did. He loves that it still runs the apps he's used to. He loves that it isn't Windows.

    And that's the point: This is not aimed at the Linux crowd; it's aimed at the reluctant Windows crowd, with the aim of turning them into the Linux crowd: once they've found their feet with Lindows, they can start trying out genuine Linux software, and hopefully from there they can get into Linux properly.

    Don't begrudge it for what it is - some people (even some pretty smart people) need a little hand-holding when it comes to Linux, and Lindows is doing a good job.
    • "...it's aimed at the reluctant Windows crowd, with the aim of turning them into the Linux crowd:..."

      No, and this distinction is subtle: it's aim is not to turn them into the "Linux" crowd, but the "Lindows" crowd - a crowd of people who will subscribe to download rebranded KDE apps, among other things.

  • Wrong question... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @09:14AM (#3761884) Homepage Journal
    The real question is, "What do Windows users think? Will it switch them?"

  • So Lindows Marketeers Are Dishonest.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @09:31AM (#3761977) Homepage Journal
    I'm, shocked, shocked!

    Lindows has always had a big BS factor to it. Absurd claims of Windows compatibility. Silly gimmicks with licensing and fees. Now they've conned WalMart into thinking it's something they can sell to people who'd otherwise use Windows. Which is actually a good thing, since this will blow up in their faces, they'll go out of busines, and we can talk about something else.

    • I can see windows 98 compatibility within their reach though. IF they were to sustain some nice revenue from the Wally Mart deal and instead of lining the execs pockets with it put it directly into research, I give them a chance
      • You've got it backwards. How can they "sustain revenue" in a mass market channel like WalMart if they don't already have Win98 compatibility?

        • Re:Uh, no... (Score:2, Insightful)

          by linzeal ( 197905 )
          Don't be too certain about the resistance of walmart customers when it comes to things that sort of work and need "fixin". Truckers for one are likey to be more computer savvy than your average joe blow. I've seen more laptops at a waffle house at 4:00 am than I've seen in silicon valley at a coffee bar in the dot com heyday. Of course a lot of those laptops were circa 1992 but if they can get those working for them with their numerous hardware issues I'm sure more than a few could take some little config file and upgrading issues to task.
          • Yeah, I've heard about truckers and their laptops. Handy for going online to find loads and reduce unnecessary deadheading. But making an old DOS laptop run off a car battery is a long way from fighting Linux config problems. Especially a weird Linux distro that seems to be fundamentally broken to begin with! That would be a nightmare for an experienced hacker, never mind someone whose technical skill is mainly in hardware -- to say nothing of ordinary shoppers who want a computer so they can find out what this internet thing is all about.
            • I consider the difference between the layman's adoption of books as a source of entertainment as an example. From guttenberg onward a certain intellectual class was born that reveled in the access the new medium gave them. An ever expanding coterie of writers and literary types headed the occidental world into the 20th century until radio and television usurped their power. The computer will again trump even television and accessible or not it will be taken in by the general populace as mana for their insatiable need for entertainment. To lindows, if this does not have a chance with every dick and jane out there than nothing currently in the linux line up does. Soon an operating system legacy will be formed that will likely remain unshaken for a long while. It will permeate every digital device, microsoft or linux seem to be the only contenders. Linux has nothing to lose in the consumer market but the faith of its most die hard advocates.
  • as far as i can tell, the slashdot crowd is not the lindows target market. most /.'ers can install an os by themselves. they can even set up an x86 box to host multiple operating systems.

    aside from the novelty factor of running one more os, there is very little need of lindows here. i can be productive in either linux or windows and i don't need a kludge to bring them together.

    (for the few times when i need a windows program to run in linux, i can configure wine by myself too.)

  • What are they thinking... (Score:2, Informative)

    by arrow ( 9545 )
    If 'Michael's Minutes' plopping into my inbox every other day wasn't annoying enough...

    They come out with the meraculous feature of installing software in one click. No, not one click in the installer... one click in your web browser and the RPM of your choice is downloaded and installed automagicly. Does that scare the hell out of anyone else?

    Great. Now it will be so much simpler to rootkit the machines on demo at Wal-Mart.
    \

  • Eh (Score:3, Interesting)

    by RevAaron ( 125240 ) <revaaron AT hotmail DOT com> on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @11:47AM (#3762927) Homepage
    As a longtime user of Linux, "easy-to-use" Unices like NeXTSTEP, OpenStep, Rhapsody and more recently Mac OS X, Mac OS Classic, and (unfortunately) Windows, here's my take. I've not used it, but these are my impressions.

    Frankly, I'm not sure what the big deal is. Lindows claims more ease of use than your average GNU/Linux distro and Windows compatibility. Having used a couple truly 'user-friendly' (subjective, yes) Unices, I can safely say the experience KDE and GNOME (to a lesser extent) provides is nice as long as you don't do certain things. When you do these things, the user-friendly-ness and consistency of environment breaks down. Even though Linux is my primary OS, it's something that has bothered me about Linux for a long time. Inconsistency.

    So in short, Lindows suffers from many of the same inconsistecnies as any other KDE or GNOME- based distro.

    I can't imagine it being as "easy" as Windows. Even if it were on the level with WinDOS, that isn't saying much.

    But I'm pragmatic. So I don't hate Lindows for Licensing issues. ;P
    • What certain things that break consistency? There's a bunch of UI guys in both the KDE and the GNOME teams who would probably appreciate your bug reports...
  • I don't know whether they (the Lindows people) specifically said they had polled /. or not. I know I received e-mail from them asking to take a poll.

    I think there is a fundamental problem here. It does not matter what /. readers think of Lindows. This is an OS intended for people with a large base of Win32 apps who want to stop using Windoze. It's not intended for users of Linux/BSD/Unix varients.

    I've read many comments and articles here on Lindows and, while a few actually catch this, most people on /. forget that while this group is highly technically oriented, many people use a computer as a tool to do other work. For such people, Lindows may be a Very Good Thing.

    The first criticism I usually see in any Lindows discussion here is the comment that it's stupid to run any system as root. That is true for a Linux system, but this comment itself shows the prejudice many of us have that is so ingrained we don't see it -- we are looking at it only from one point of view -- that of the techinically oriented. This comment in itself shows we are fogetting Lindows is emulating a system where most people don't even log in -- where anybody who turns on the computer has the equivalent of root access.

    It doesn't matter what we think. Lindows is not aimed at us. On the other hand, Lindows just may be the thing that breaks the monopoly open and makes it easier for other operating systems to find a larger piece of the market share.

    And more market share is a good thing (unless you're a Linux user who is a bit of a snob and wants to be using an OS not many people overall use because it allows you to be a techie snob/snot and look down your nose at others who may be very intelligent, but not knowledgable in the same areas you are).
  • I have not played with Lindows, but have tinkered with wine. Do I think the Linux community will support Lindows? Probably yes and no. Linux has actually settled down and there are basically a few distribustions that people use. To name a few RedHat, Mandrake, Slackware, debian, and Suse. Yes there are others. Having settled down so to speak, there is a project called wine, which has been going on for some time. Many Linux (and UNIX) users like myself realize the value in wine. Sine Lindows is based on wine there is support already there.

    Now will I go out and buy a Lindows machine? Probably not, but if they say that they can run Word and Office and Powerpoint and serveral other programs like that then I may recommend it to a friend as an alternative to windows.

  • You can be as critical as you wish about the Lindows version of linux.

    But, at least they are trying very hard to put linux on the desktop. Most other linux distros only pay it lip service (if that).

    RedHat has pretty much said it is just not interested. And, their product shows it. Lindows on the other hand is focused upon the desktop and if you want a server OS they are glad to refer you to RedHat or others.

    Xandros is another company that is focused upon linux for the desktop. (Actually, Lindows is based upon Xandros but it is not clear just how much of the Xandros distribution will be included in Lindows.)

    Xandros, taken from the Corel Linux 3rd distro (not publicly released) at least tries very hard to make networking with windows systems easy. RedHat ignores the problem. Even Mandrake only offers a rather sickly ability to network. Oh sure, they all use Samba. But, Samba is similar to the old DOS based server/redirector crap that is all but impossible for regular people to use.

    Xandros offers networking equivilent to Windows Explorer. Just right-click and pick "sharing". Mandrake hides how to accomplish the same.

    How will Lindows do it?

    Not sure. The version currently being included with some Wal-mart systems (SPX) is a bit of a pre-release. Even so it is better than many versions sold in the millions by Microsoft only a few years ago. And, for many it is easier to install than the Micorosoft crap is today.

    The ability to run applications written for the Microsoft systems is important for many users. At least for those who already have such applications but may want to try out linux. And, getting consumers into thinking of alternatives can do wonders. Why don't they just pick up Mandrake or RedHat and grap OpenOffice, etc.? Some will.

    And, when Xandros can release their distro a very easy to use distro will also network right along side the Microsoft boxes. Sorry, but Corel Linux 1st was easier to network than any other linux distro since then. And, that is 3-4 years ago.

    Linux on the desktop will take off once the distro companies actually focus upon the desktop user instead of the back room. And, that requires that it is easier than Microsoft. Focusing upon servers is not going to do it.
    • Of course thats ignoring Lycoris who have had a fully working single CD desktop linux in build 44 for about 12 months now - it even runs windows apps and has Div-x and samba built in

      Its freee as well. Lindows was a troll from the start but it has done a great job of covering up the work of companies like Lyrcoris

      PS Xandros is a very intreresting company - you might find that a lot of the stuff they are developing at the moment is not open source if you do a bit of research..
      • Lindows is based on Xandros. So, I am not sure you can really draw any distinction between them except as to the final form their product takes.

        But, I think you have to be careful about rejecting software simply on the basis that it is not open source software. And, same is true about rejecting software because it is open source.

        Since the industry began software took both forms. Initially operating systems were closed. All of them. But, any software you needed had to be developed in-house and that is open source to at least the development and support staff. So, from day one the industry has worked in a mixed invironment regardless of what some people want to think.

        Now, if you want to be a purist that is fine.

        But, I would not suggest turning away an easy to network Xandros simply because the software is not completely open source or not under the GPL. Xandros does use Samba of course. But, they have added a front end to it to make it easy to use. Other companies such as Mandrake have not. As a result, Xandros (Corel 1 and Corel 2) are much easier to use. The Xandros (Corel) File Manager is a clone of Windows Exporer. And, you may or may not like Windows Explorer. But, it is easy to share a directory with others or map a network directory and go to work. Mandrake is simply too foreign and difficult for non-techies. And, that is still true regardless of their effort to be easy to install, etc. I have used Mandrake 8.2 for months. I also removed it because I know I do not need to learn the difficult process to use it effectively. And, neither will I ever train anyone else to do so. I'll just install Xandros for them and take the day off.

        Lindows is taking a different route. Lindows is focusing upon other efforts with their Clink_n_Run stuff.

        Well. One of the real advantages that Linux has now and will retain oveer time is the ability to fully develop multiple ideas to enhance user access, functionaly, security, flexibility and ease of use. Remember the "BOb" thing? Disaster right? Sure was. And, during that time Microsoft only offered that one solution to see if it sticks. The same is true with .Net, Pallidium and any other technology they want to toss out. Any idea can fail. But, only linux will benefit from the concept that many different companies and many individuals can bring forth truly innovative technology on the linux platform and see how it rides. Microsoft can not and will not do that. They are restricted to one attempt at a time. And, when they fail consumers and the industry loses years at a time. Linux will not suffer that way.

        Lindows may or may not be successful in their effort. But, even if they fail Xandros can be. And, Mandrake can be. And, RedHat can be. And, many others can be as well. That is the real power of having an open source OS. It permits value added features to be exposed to the market without the extremely high barriers that a strickly proprietary or closed OS would require. BE failed for several reasons. Extremely high barriers to entry and Microsoft's illegal acts could easily combine to cause that failure. And, did.

        Microsoft can engage in many illegal acts (and already has) to make it difficult for linux. They use FUD and everything else at their disposal. But, in the end, true innovation is likely to surface from the linux platform and be unable to survive on a closed system. And, that is likely to be the case even though today Microsoft enjoys a monopoly position.

        In the hearings for the antitrust case, AOL presented evidence of the Lego project. That project took the Microsoft OS and put up a custom frontend best suited for kids. Well. Microsoft wants to block it. And, maybe they can keep variety off of their products. But, that leaves linux open for those markets. The only question is whether having an open OS is sufficent. The only real problem that linux faces now for many customers is the lack of a full range of end-user applications that can be bought down at the corner. Sure, you can get a lot over the internet. And, Lindows is working hard to make that even easier (as are others). But, the mass shops Best-Buy and Circuit-City and other retail outlets. And, linux is at a disadvange in the retail markets.

  • I know this is /. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Rope_a_Dope ( 522981 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @12:29PM (#3763229)
    Can somebody actually claim to have purchased Lindows, installed it on their computer, and tried to run Linux or Windows apps on it?

    While I realize that this forum is a great place to spout rhetoric on whether or not the ideology behind Lindows is true in spirit to the Linux community, it does not offer any real insight into the usability of the product.

    Many users such as myself would be interested in using this product if people could tell me that Lindows ran my software. If I were to ask my friends who installed Windows XP on their machines if I should upgrade from Win 2k, I don't expect them to tell me "Don't, because Microsoft doesn't contribute to other closed source projects." I expect to hear whether or not it runs the apps and whether or not it runs quickly.

    So please, can anybody tell us whether or not Lindows achieves its intended purpose of an alternative operating system that allows you to run Windows and Linux apps? I'll decide the politics of my operating system for myself.

    • I actually got into the Lindows 'sneak preview' program. They have done some excellent work with wine, and making things run seamlessly. Microsoft Office 97 worked good, 2000 worked good, XP wouldn't even install. There was some issues with Internet Explorer functioning when it wanted to. I tried a few other base applications I run while using windows. Here's the breakdown I had.
      mIRC 6.0X wouldn't run
      mIRC 3~5.X ran just fine
      LeechFTP ran just fine
      BitBeamer ran just fine
      FileMaker Pro ran, but had some major stability issues.
      Microsoft Money 2002 wouldn't even open.
      Trillian ran, but had some major stability issues.
      SecureCRT wouldn't even open up
      Solitare worked flawlessly (go figure)
      FreeCell also worked flawlessly (again, go figure)

      All in all, my experience wasn't too bad with Lindows. However, I am capable of installing a 'real' linux distribution and, I am even capable of compiling my own kernel. I guess all those years of cutting class in highschool were worth it.

      I forsee it being marketable to your average kid who wants to convert from windows to lindows, then eventually to a 'real' linux distribution. I don't see too many businesses running it. I am a business, and I only ran it for a few days. I couldn't trust it to run what I needed flawlessly.
      • mIRC 6.02 works fine in winex 2.01, I just tried it. The version of wine that comes with Lindows must have issues.
      • That brings something up that reallt hasn't been discussed much. Kids and teens are much more eager to embrace new computer stuff than many adults. I could potentially see the more recent gererations of people using alternative OS's purely to learn stuff. That's how I saw myself in the mid 90's. I was trying to tinker with computers and loved toying with new programs, while other kids were playing sports. Nowadays, there is less of a geek-ratio in terms of computer users. They have become more common for people to use day-bt-day.

        How will an easiliy accessible, easy to use, and easy to install Linux distribution factor into things with younger people trying that are eager to learn? It will probably bode well, aside from the lack of cash to pay for the "click and load" service. But hey... It's a start.
    • My company bought one copy and we installed it on a PIII800 with 256MB Ram. The first thing we did was install Microsoft Office 2000 SR-1. That worked. But Outlook 2000 doesn't run in CW mode because the SPX release doesn't support mapping of network drives nor does it support network browsing. IMO they need to get those two things running before it's even worth looking at for anyone.
    • I really hadn't thought of it that way. In that light it does seem like it might be of benifit. I'm seeing a lot more people wanting to get away from microsoft latley, but whom I don't think are quite up to understanding installing software from either rpm or source when dependency issues come up. I've been wishing for something like BeOS, and who knows, this might be right what I've been looking for to recomend to people who are looking for that kind of experience.

      Still, I have to say the whole idea of it running root all the time does disturb me. I can just see people thinking because they're running a linux distro they'll never have to worry about viruses again, even though they're running outlook express and as root. I'm sure the popular press would have a field day reporting about how virus prone "linux" is, instead of the important note that it's lindows that's so easy to infect, not Linux.
  • Lindows started off by making claims of compatability with windows that they wound up retracting. I imagine an attorney somewhere telling them that they were asking for trouble. But it doesn't matter now, because the rank-n-file sales staff at Wal-Mart have already been programmed to say Lindows is Windows compatable. Which it's not.

    In the long run I fear that consummer rage at being mislead by the hype of Lindows will only underscore the myth that Linux is arcane and difficult to use.
    • "...programmed to say Lindows is Windows compatable. Which it's not."

      I'd like to see a Windows compatible version of Windows, just for the novelty factor.

  • Honestly? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by etherlad ( 410990 )
    I've been waiting for a "final" version of Lindows. It's not a priority at the moment, so I haven't seen if they've reached that stage yet. When I finally get my own computer, I'd like it to be a Linux system, but something that A) doesn't require me to learn a new GUI, and B) allows me to run all the programs I've got and can read all the files I have. So something like Lindows would be an ideal solution. Otherwise, I'd likely go in for a Linux/Windows dual boot, but with my familiarity with Windows and all the stuff I have for it already, I don't see me using the Linux side of things all that often. I imagine in the average-user demograph (meaning relatively mid-level, not lowest-common-demominator average), there are a lot of others like me, who want to get away from Windows, but still want all the Windows-type functionality they're used to.
    • Buy a walmart lindows box. Not only do you get a play with lindows, but you don't pay the MS tax on the box. When you're feeling confident, get yourself a copy of (let me be frank) a real linux. Mandrake or Lycoris would be a good bet.

  • Lindows Could Work (Score:3, Interesting)

    by metacosm ( 45796 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2002 @02:03PM (#3763880)
    I think Lindows has a chance if it does just a few things right.

    • #1) Integrated control panel with major services support. This is the key to give people a feeling of "control" over their own system. You should be able to:
      • Change your resolution
      • Maintain users
      • Setup quotes
      • Setup apache
      • Setup ssh access
      • ... much more ...
      • in short, maintain your system settings

    • #2) Install/Update applications (I think they are focusing on this part), most importantly linux ones. This has to be easy.
    • #3) Don't focus too strongly on windows compatibility, it is a counter-motivation. I am a developer, and I would never develop native linux application if I knew that I could develop a windows one, and it would work via wine in linux. It removes the motivation to create native applications. This was one of the things that helped killed OS/2. OS/2 could run windows binaries, so developers never learned to use the great tools of OS/2, they just built windows binaries and tested them against OS/2.
    • #4) General polish, the overall look/feel and tightness of the system.
    • #5) Fonts... I can't tell you how many times I have heard an uproar over the ugly fonts used on linux, this _is_ a big deal to end users.
    • #6) Special settings for laptops (reduce bootup time, fatter fonts, hibernation, power-saving mode).


    Now, that is a bunch of stuff I would like done, but realistically if they got 1 and 2 done, they would be WELL ahead in the game.
    • Maintain users
      That's easy... there's one user, called "root".

      Setup quotes
      Quotas? You must be talking about some other OS.

      Setup apache
      And immediately get hacked because everything runs as root.

      These are worthy features for a Linux distribution... but Lindows is not really a Linux distribution.
      • The even bigger quation is: Who in their right mind would *ever* consider running Apache on a Lindows machine.

        I'm sorry, but that is just stupid. :)
      • >>Setup apache And immediately get hacked because everything runs as root.

        Lindows installs apache from debian packages, which automatically setup a sandbox user to run apache from. Services do not run as root, they run as their own user like they do in debian.
    • Some time ago I tried out the Corel Linux distro, and although some of the design choices really didn't work for me (IIRC, it automatically boots into X and provides no easy way to switch out/change this behaviour)what it DID do pretty well was a Control Panel with options to switch Resolution and Color Depth. I haven't used any recent versions of KDE so for all I know they've implemented this too, but at the time (about a year ago?) it was the nicest X configuration utility I'd seen, and I think something like this is pretty important for new users who would be a little thrown off by XF86Config.
      • I've seen nothing of that sort in KDE 3 on Slackware 8.1. But that could be a result of using a third party video driver. The KDE control center does not have any information on my display device.

        What is included in some of these distributions looks to be a mix of third party stuff and hacked KDE tools. Lycoris build 55 is looking like it is going to do a very good job of simulation a Windows control panel. Take a look-see: http://www.lycoris.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle &artid=38

        Looks like HTML through Konqueror to me, and uses scripts to run programs a certain way. That's not a bad idea, if you ask me.

        But really. I am fairly experienced in Linux stuff, and I used to find running xvidtune to be rediculously dumb. Good thing those days are long gone.
  • ... enough to reply to this story in any meaningful way.
  • The idea behind the whole GNU project was to make a completely free operating system. Free as in speech. What they've done is taken (well, tried to take) Linux/GNU and made it into something it shouldn't be: a Windows clone. We have all seen the bugs Windows and it's programs have, why would we want those on an otherwise secure system. I don't think it's a bad idea to be able to emulate windows programs, but we shouldn't make a distribution of linux with the sole purpose of doing it... do ya see what I mean?
    • I agree that the idea behind the GNU project was not to produce a free (as in beer) clone of a crappy OS like Windows.

      > I don't think it's a bad idea to be able to emulate windows programs, but we shouldn't make a distribution of linux with the sole purpose of doing it... do ya see what I mean?

      Couldn't agree more. We don't need a mutilated Linux that tries to be Windows. We need an application like Wine, packaged to provide access to Windows on top of Linux. Lindows users should feel like: hey, I'm running Linux, but I don't need to get rid of my Windows legacy all at once. They shouldn't feel: damn, I glad I bought a cheap computer but it runs my old apps crappy. Have Linux adjust to Windows and it will end up like OS/2 [slashdot.org].

      And never underestimate the need for applications like Wine. The major part of the networked world is not Free (as in speech). Therefore, to communicate in a Free manner with the rest of the world we ("the Linux community") need to be able read their crappy propriatry formats. I'm sorry to say that: resistance is brave, but in the end futile. Open source conversion tools and cloned applications like StarOffice, AbiWord, Gnumeric and OpenOffice are one way to read eg. MS Word formatted email (who invented that) or Excel files. Another way is to simply emulate those evil binaries. The same goes for games. Sooner or later you will need to collaborate, face it.

      Isn't Linux's main problem with desktops the lack of added value on top of it being free (beer/speech)? Where's the desktop killer app? Where's the apache for the end-user/consumer masses?
  • If you care about open source then you don't want to run windows apps anyway, you want to run their open source equivalents. If you care about free-as-in-whocares software, then you DEFINITELY don't want to run anything windowsish.

    If you DO want to run that shit, there is a new distribution of a very popular operating system which has been winning more acclaim among diehard geeks: Windows XP.

    Holy shit, I see the Stallmanist lynching party approaching me now. Hear me out.

    I've been using linux for a pretty long time now, since slackware 2, kernel 1.1.47. I installed it from a few floppies, on a 386DX25 with 8mb of ram (DIP DRAM on the MB... very odd) and a 120mb maxtor ide disk. I had a 1mb trident vga card, too. I ran X, netscape... you get the idea. BTW, fvwm rocks your socks. My computing experience goes back farther than that; for a long time my primary machine was a IBM PC-1 with 448kb ram and the updated roms to support hard disks. You get the idea. I'm pretty 'core about this shit.

    Now get ready for the pain; I run windows XP now. This is mostly because I'm a gamer and gamers must run windows. But when Win2k came out I was sold on this whole NT thing. I still use Unix in various forms (right now I'm hyped on gentoo linux) for servers and such; I don't trust NT to be up as long, remote administration requires too much machine... I think they have a way to go before they reach the same level as Unix in serverland. But the XP user experience is unparalleled. You can quote me on that, fanboy.

    • XP is finally fully skinnable. Sure there's some bugs in that... Ever run Englightenment?
    • NTFS5 is journaling. It's plenty fast and I have not lost any files due to anything other than accidental deletion since I started running XP, not long after it came out. Well, that's not true actually, XP's dynamic disks feature bit me, but then I didn't make repair disks either because I'm stupid.
    • XP is tolerably secure. It has a firewall feature finally, and one is generally led to turn it on by default. That might cause some ass-pain for some of the more luserish types but at least it should protect their delicate hineys from the violent probing one gets when one connects to this new-fangled 'internet' thing. I swear, UUCP should be enough for anybody.
    • XP is pretty damn stable. I wouldn't say it's as stable as linux, because I am not a liar. But linux is not 100% stable either; I've panic'd supposedly stable kernels many times. Also, X explodes at the least fucking provocation, and the drivers for both nVidia and ATI products suck donkey balls for different reasons. What am I supposed to do, run Matrox? That Parhelia shit looks pretty tasty... But anyway, I regularly have uptimes of more than a week. Reboots are super duper fast. Explorer still commits seppuku in shame of being a wrapper for Listbox every now and then, and that's much more disruptive to the system than it ought to be. Here's a hint, microsoft; VIRTUAL. FUCKING. SYSTEM TRAY. Thankyouverymuch.
    • Direct3D used to be pure shit. Now it's candy-coated, lilac-scented shit. Besides, the OpenGL drivers are immensely better than they were even in the days of Win2k.

    No, XP is not the perfect OS. But it is an order of magnitude better even than 2k (Growing pains, you know... 2k might be this good now, but it's old) and of course it makes Win9x look like a whore. Did I mention that compatibility mode is really quite good now? Anyway, I can't stand the agony of KDE or Gnome, or more to the point, the combination of X and Qt or GTK. It's slow as fuck.

  • Flashback 5 years: I'm in a new job, absolutely thrilled with the $50,000 SGI Crimson Jurassic Classic monster I've just been assigned to. Said monster running IRIX 5.2 and whose 21' screen is in front of me. I'm as happy as a clam, getting paid good money for playing with this ultimate toy! I can almost feel my hair being pasted back with the speed of the thing... Suddenly a totally unwelcome rubbernecker invades my idyll. Without so much as a "May I?" pulls up a chair, plonks self next to me, leans forward into screen and gushes: "Oh, Windows! Cool!" AAAARGH!!! Strangle? Kick? Fold, spindle, mutilate? Or somehow change the perception that anything that has windows and menus and a mouse cursor is not necessarily "Windows" and that there are alternatives out there, some that were there even before Windows and some that are even BETTER than Windows! Or just plain DIFFERENT! To my mind, anything that even attempts to chip away even a few surface molecules of such monumental stupidity is a good thing and should be endorsed by this community. Just a thought...
  • Lindows may not be the answer we all want but guess what... There are other distros for us!

    Walmart now sells machins with Lindows on them! Wholy cow, LINUX IS NOW MAIN STREAM! GREAT!

    Does Lindows need OUR support? Heck no, they are not targeting US they are targeting WINDOWS users, not Windows Power users, not Linux hackers not Mac users. They are going after Jow/Jane windows user.

    Security issue, sure, but so what.. 9x has been just as bad. It may not be the whole answer but it is one thing if nothing more...

    A Choice for the average user!

    If you want to getmax config, go GenToo!

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