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Video Formats That Will Be Usable in 25 years? 48

Posted by Cliff from the sometimes-analog-is-better-than-digital dept.
El_Nofx asks: "I have several home videos and hundreds of video clips stored in dozens of CODECs that I want to consolidate into one format so 10-15 years from now I can show them to my children. One in particular I don't want to loose is a video of 9-11 put out in Shockwave Flash. Has anyone thought of a better way to do this, as opposed to convert them all to full-frame AVI. Is there a CODEC out there that in 10 years will still be backward compatible enough to play those old clips. There seems to be a lot of buzz around about doing everything digitally with regards to pictures, movies, etc. But what use is it if 15 years from now you can't find anyway to watch them. What really bothers me is the CPRM movement. If not done correctly, that could negate the work all of us have done to digitize video. Any thoughts?" Open Formats and CODECs will beat any proprietary format for this exact problem, and with that usual twist of computing irony, these are the formats that are least used when dealing with multimedia. Many people cite better compression with closed formats as their main reason for using them, but when the CODECs are obsoleted, they'll be then feeling the crunch. For now, consider dumping your digital videos to VCD or DVD, as these should be viewable on the consumer level players which exist. For those looking for a more economical route: VHS/Beta is also an option. Proprietary digital formats, especially the bleeding edge formats involving high compression CODECs, should be avoided at all costs.
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Video Formats That Will Be Usable in 25 years? More

Video Formats That Will Be Usable in 25 years?

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  • Theora (eventually)?... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Dr.Dubious DDQ ( 11968 ) on Sunday June 30, 2002 @08:04PM (#3797486) Homepage

    From the earlier story, it sounds like the "Theora" project (VP3.5 video/Vorbis Audio in a .ogg file) might be a way to go...if it manages to get an implimentation available anytime soon. This is probably dependent on how quickly they get a spec written... It ought to be available for quite some time.

    On a related note - does anyone know of a good way to "capture" a flash animation to a more "standard" video file, e.g. .mpg or something similar? It'd be nice to take some of these flash web-cartoons and make personal-use VCD's out of them so everyone wouldn't have to cluster around my little monitor so that I could show them...

    • I agree, with an opensource codec, even if it disapears in 25 years, you'll always have the source code (assuming u kept a copy =)
      even if ur not a coder, it shouldn't be too hard to find some one who can use it to make a codec for what ever you'll use then.
      plus open source and unix in general always has had a better track record of backwards compatability.
      and with a close sourced codec if it goes out of fashion you may have a hard time using it in future.

    • On a related note - does anyone know of a good way to "capture" a flash animation to a more "standard" video file, e.g. .mpg or something similar? It'd be nice to take some of these flash web-cartoons and make personal-use VCD's out of them so everyone wouldn't have to cluster around my little monitor so that I could show them...

      If you haven't already been to vcdhelp.com that should be your first stop. There are detailed instructions on how to convert many file formats to VCD-compliant MPEG1. If that doesn't help, try a google search for some of your keywords ("flash convert VCD" or something like that). If all else fails, you can always use a screen-grabbing utility to record the flash animation on your screen and save it to a videofile. Then convert the videofile to VCD. That's kind of messy but should allow you to convert any video type to MPEG1.

      Hope that helps!

      GMD

  • MPEG-2 (Score:4, Informative)

    by tachyonflow ( 539926 ) on Sunday June 30, 2002 @08:13PM (#3797547) Homepage
    There are patent issues and it doesn't get the best compression, but MPEG-2 is likely to be around for quite some time, given that it is the codec used by DVD players and HDTV broadcasts.
    • Aye, another vote for MPEG2. It's standardised, there are stacks of open source decoders, and there is a large industry built around it.

      Probably cut to CD too. Twice, on different makes of blank because these things DO crap out.

      Dave

    • You're right, that's the same thing I thought when I first saw this question. Now, if someone could decide on a standard for MPEG-4, then I'ld say you should try to use it, but for right now we are stuck with MPEG-2...the truth is, in 10-15 years we will most likely have a High-Definition DVD format that will be backward compatable with both MPEG-2 (SVCD & DVD) and MPEG-1 (VCD)...

      But, I agree, MPEG-2 isn't going anywhere for a long time (if ever)...

  • Well, what's already lasted 25 years? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by hitzroth ( 60178 ) on Sunday June 30, 2002 @08:14PM (#3797562)
    Film, mostly.

    Given the fast pace of technological change, there's no way we can predict to that kind of detail (specific codec) what we're going to have to work with 25 years from now. Or perhaps even 5 for that matter.

    Other than film, your best bet is probably to pick a format that is widely used right now (mpeg or avi for example) and burn those babies onto DVD and toss 'em into a fireproof lock box for safe keeping.
    • I wouldn't use AVI, because of all the codec confusion (to Divx or not to Divx). Hell, I even have trouble playing a Divx file made 18 months ago, and the only step I can find to fix it is to install the 3.11 codecs. In this case, I'd reccomend MPEG. MPEG has lasted as a standard for a while now, and should last as a standard for a while to come. Also, as a note: Make it as high-res as you can. Remember: You can always shrink quality, but you can't expand them.

      Now as for archiving, I'd say make two copies: One on CD for a lockbox at a bank, and one on CD for a lockbox at home. (Or, if you want, one for a lockbox at home, one for the CD-binder at home.) DVD-R/RAM formats are still up for grabs, I'd give it another 6 months until I'd consider DVD-R media. The reason I say 2 copies: one for safe-keeping, and one to use for when you want to actually use it or transfer it to another type of media in a year or two.
  • If it's widely used and not controlled by one company, you should be fine.

    VCD/DVD are a great idea. I wouldn't do VHS/Beta, since they lose quality rather quickly.

    Even on a disc, you will need to worry about data loss. Keep more than one copy and create new copies every 5-10 years, because CDs can deteriorate with time.

  • MPEG-2 (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    An open source CODEC such as VP3 is possible and because it's well documented there's safety there. But if you're not willing to accept that you may need to write it yourself, or pay someone to, then also recognise that there's safety in numbers.

    So I'd go with MPEG-2. It's a well supported standard on many platforms. Also, you have the benefit that almost all DVD players these days can play VCD disks and MPEG2 > VCD is an easy step.

    It's easy enough to write VCD disks with any CDR writer, too.

  • "futureproofing" video is nigh impossible. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fraxas ( 584069 ) on Sunday June 30, 2002 @08:48PM (#3797751)
    Your best bet is to archive not only the video material, but also the codecs themselves -- AND the O/S required to run them. If you were really paranoid, you'd but a P2 300 (or some other old, but serviceable machine) in cold storage with the disks, since you never know what the computer hardware world will be like in 15-20 years, let alone further ahead than that.
    • This is the most accurate reply so far. 15-20 years is an eternity in computer time. No one can say what codecs will be supported, even remembered, that far into the future. Maybe storing an old computer isn't the best solution, but if you really want to stay up to date you need to watch the developments and convert your files to new formats as time goes along. This has the added side effect of knowing that your data is still intact as the years go by, since even poorly made CD-Rs are prone to data loss.
      • Do you really think MPEG-2 will be gone that soon?

        The audio CD standard is more than 20 years old, and it's not going to disappear any time soon. Secure formats will appear, but you'll still be able to play your old CDs.

        MS Office still comes with codecs to read word processor files in a variety of formats, going back to the early days of the PC.

        Newer formats will come and go. But widely used formats like MPEG-2 will be readable for a long, long time. Make something your DVD player can play, and then don't worry. You'll be fine.
    • Ahhh! I see, so you suggest converting the video to DivX, burning it onto CD, and, then, putting it and a XBox in cold storage?

      .
    • Don't store the computer. With emulation you can resurrect just about any old hardware. You name it: 68K Mac, Apple II, Amiga, Atari. Bochs is an open source x86 PC emulator. It's painfully slow on today's hardware because it interprets x86 machine code, but it'll compile on any processor platform, and in a few years the processors will easily be fast enough to run Bochs as fast as a P2-300.
      For another example of software emulation, Basilisk II emulates a 68K Mac. On a 1.33Ghz Duron it's as fast as a 200Mhz Quadra or 4 times faster than the fastest 68K ever built.

  • Lots and Lots of TIFFs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Wanker ( 17907 ) on Sunday June 30, 2002 @08:57PM (#3797797)
    Scary, but true. ;-)

    If you want maximum compatibility nothing is going to beat a huge sequence of still frames stored in a commonly-used format. Almost any of the common Internet standard formats would work. JPEG is probably the best choice for video still frames since it will save you a bunch of storage.

    Burn them onto ISO 9660 CD-R media, and you'll have something that stands an excellent chance of being viewable in 30 years.

    If you simply *must* use a video format, MPEG-2 or MPEG-1 is probably your best bet. Enough people use MPEG-2 commercially to ensure that the format is not likely to be completely abandoned. You can also find current Open Source decoders for MPEG-1 and MPEG-2.

    Burn the source code onto your CD-ROMs along with the image stream and you should be in reasonably good shape. Tar/gzip is probably a safe choice, though if you're really concerned, you should burn it onto the CDs untarred and uncompressed.
    • Well, if you're going to store the images in JPEG, in which format would you store the audio track?
      • Well, if you're going to store the images in JPEG, in which format would you store the audio track?

        The old uncompressed Windows WAV format is good, but can easily be confused with the new lossy-compressed format.

        So my choice is the ancient Sun .au format. Uncompressed, self-describing, and thorougly documented. Just gzip up the file and you're good to go.
    • If you want maximum compatibility nothing is going to beat a huge sequence of still frames stored in a commonly-used format. Almost any of the common Internet standard formats would work. JPEG is probably the best choice for video still frames since it will save you a bunch of storage.

      Sorry, JPEG is a lossy compression, and, frame to frame, the visible compression artifacts will appear in different places.
      This means that, once you reassemble the images into a sequence again, it's as if you suddenly got a whole lot of dust (or visual artifacts) on it.

      As the parent poster mentioned in their subject, use a nonlossy format such as TIFF. (Or why not PNG, as I head it's Open).

      .
      • Sorry, JPEG is a lossy compression, and, frame to frame, the visible compression artifacts will appear in different places.

        You are absolutely right. I knew there was a reason why I always used non-lossy compression for this, but started second-guessing myself. You can see where that got me!

        PNG is good, but is not universally supported right now. TIFF with a widely used open-standard lossless compression is probably the safest choice. (I use TIFF/gzip. ;-)
  • DRM will keep you from playing unapproved/unlicensed video no matter the format.

  • Your solution (Score:3, Insightful)

    by GrandCow ( 229565 ) on Sunday June 30, 2002 @10:26PM (#3798257)
    Best thing I've heard from people is to backup your movies and pictures onto a CD... and put a copy of the decoder and codec onto the CD also. That way even if the codec gets banished to the depths of hell you still have a copy that you are able to use to open the material.

    BONUS: Back it up with a codec and player that are without DRM built in and you don't have to worry about not being able to play the stuff in the future.
    • Yes, the program and codec will work.. If you assume the operating system and the computer hardware are that run it are still around of course.

    • You may not be able to install the player and codec on a Palladium-based OS in 10 years time. You may still be able to run it under a descendant of Wine, but you probably need to keep testing with every major architecture change, and keep the ability to transform the format to an uncompressed one.
  • 1. Media.

    No matter how well you look after them, VHS will deteriorate - badly. In 25 years, they will be completely unusable. Beta probably suffers from the same problem.

    A digital medium ensures that you will get back what you put on it (but remember to create new copies every few years).

    2. Player.

    You will need to make sure you have a player for the medium. It is likely that CD- and DVD-compatible players will still be being made in 25 years time. I can pretty much guarantee that there won't be any VHS players being made - and good luck trying to keep a VCR in working condition for 25 years ...

    3. Format.

    If it can play standalone on a current DVD player then you will probably be OK. This includes VCD, SVCD and DVD-Video.

    Other posts have suggested an open-source codec (and player!) stored on the CD/DVD. This should also be OK - just make sure you pick a platform-neutral player and codec. You don't want to rely on a particular OS being available. In 25 years time someone may need to tinker with the code, but at least the basics should be sufficient to get it working.

    But IMO, probably VCD or DVD-Video is your best bet right now.
  • Because your video most likely is recorded in 4:1:1 resolution, 4:2:0 resolution or analogue Hi8 resolution, the 50mbit DVCPRO format will probably give you the best results. If you dont own costly video equipment, you should settle for MPEG50. MPEG50 will give you 4:2:2 resolution, which takes only 20% of the space Digital Betacam uses. (DigiBeta is 4:4:4 and 270mbit) You can choose to store the MPEG50 either on tape or files on your computer. You will need to rent or borrow a VTR capable of MPEG50 when copying tapes.
  • pop down to your local store and buy a cheep pc(that linux can run on),

    download a linux distribution with xine &co . and stick it on the PC.

    convert all you video to a xine compatable format (e.g. mpeg2/divx) and stick them on CD

    put the cheep pc, linux distro, and cd's into storage until your old.

    Wait a while

    Wow the grand-kids with your old tech pc and the videos on it.
  • NTSC video is probably the safest bet. Make high-quality Beta or VHS copies of what you want to keep, and store them properly for maximum longevity. (Check with tape manufacturers about magnetic tape archival procedures for maximum life.) Because of the volume of such tapes from the 20th and 21st ceturies, this video will probably be usable for a very long time, decades or more.

    Remember that with an analog format, degradation will be very slow, and after an initial loss in a few years, it will remain quite stable and usable for a very long time. In general, digital formats are likely to be obsolete and problematic long before you face the same problem with analog formats.

    If you insist on digital, DV might be an acceptable option, but it is far from certain that DV will ever achieve anything like the ubiquity that plain old NTSC analog offers. Burning real DVDs may well work as well, since it looks like DVD's becoming a pretty standard format, and players are simple and cheap.

    Of course, if you care about preserving the information, be sure to preserve a player (or two) for it, too. (It might even be a good idea to include a monitor or TV, as analog display devices could be hard to find down the road.)

    You don't want to be in the awkward situation of a time capsule opened a few decades ago that contained a puzzing item: a spool of fine wire. I turned out to be from a wire recorder, although it took those opening the capsule some time to a) realize what it was, and b) find a working wire recorder on which to play it back. (Wire recorders were popular as business dictation devices in the 1930s and '40s, before Scotch 110 tape allowed magnetic tape to be a real option, creating the magnetic audio recording industry that eventually led Ampex to develop the first magnetic video tape recorder.) Interestingly, magnetic recording wire has one attribute that makes it well-suited for use in time capsules and such: since the magnetic patterns are larger and stored on a more magnetically reslient medium, the signal can be preserved for a very long time - much longer than the usable life of tape. Sorry, I don't know of anyone making video wire recorders, though... :-)

    It's amazing how ours may be the first generation in a century to have such a perishable history - our video, our snapshots, and such are all in very vulnerable digital formats, unlike the family photos, slides, and movies that are holding up pretty well after several decades, and do not require any Media-industry-approved equipment to view them. We somehow think burning these onto CDs will preserve them - it may, but not with anywhere near the reliability and robustness of real photographs...

  • Don't patents expire after 7 years (or is it 14)?

    (Then again, I guess there's a risk that they might start extending patents to ridiculous lengths, like they've done with copyrights...)
  • This format has lasted very well throughout the ages and still has the best outlook for the next several thousand years.
  • If you really want to make sure that you can view your videos down the road, you should just keep whatever hardware and software you watch it with now. It may be obsolete, but there's no reason it shouldn't work then just as well as it does now...

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