Legalities of Rewrapped Games? 59
TheQuantumShift asks: "I'm part of a small video game retail franchise, and as such deal with corporate competition on a daily basis. Usually this is not a problem as we undersell the big corporate chains most of the time. One thing that really bothers us is the fact that these stores take opened, clearly used games, re-shrinkwrap them and sell them as new. One customer opened a shrink wrapped 'new' GBA game, only to find the previous owners receipt. Ex-Employees have confirmed the practice. This seems a little more than dishonest, and we would like to get them called on it. The trouble is, we have no idea where or who to start with. And exactly what proof we should have ready. We've been toying with the idea of contacting Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc... directly, but I believe this isn't the way to go. As long as these big corps order tens of thousands of systems and titles, is Sony really going to care? Any insights would be much appreciated." Caveat, Consumer.
Storefront or warehouse or middle-man wholesaler? (Score:2, Interesting)
A while ago I read about a fellow who purchased a new retail-box hard drive from Best Buy and got it home and unwrapped it to find that it contained a can of tuna instead of the hard drive he was expecting! That particular can of tuna had been sent to the country where the hard drives were being manufactured (according to the tuna distributor) so someone at the factory had heisted the hard drive.
This could be a similar situation.
But of course, you said that one customer found the previous customer's receipt in the box, so that rules some of this out.
The software stores around here have signs up that say "No Return on Opened Software, Exchange for Exact Same Title Only".
Re:Storefront or warehouse or middle-man wholesale (Score:3, Insightful)
All that, and more... (Score:5, Informative)
I once sold a joystick box to a customer... no joystick... it had been "forgotten". And yes, the box had been shrinkwrapped. Customer came back the next day for an exchange.
While working there, I was taught techniques to removing the adhesive "seal" that the manufacturers put on computer games and DVDs so that it could be re-applied. "Good as new."
I'd wager a guess that this is fairly common. Where exactly does it say that you're buying new merchandise? It doesn't. Learn to tell the difference between a commercial shrinkwrap job, and a $6/hour-I-hate-my-life shrinkwrap job.
Commercial plastic wrap tends to crinkle. It often has crisp folds. There is often a thicker piece of plastic - a tab - to help you unwrap the rest of the plastic.
Back room (underhanded) shrinkwrap is soft to the touch. There are no folds (they shrink when heat is applied). There will be seems along at least two sides.
Next time you go to a DVD store, have a look at the different plastic wrappings. You'll see what I mean.
Beware TPB
Re:All that, and more... (Score:2, Funny)
Wait... didn't they notice that the box was rather stupidly light? I mean, unless this was some sort of amazingly magical material, a joystick is rather heavy in comparison to the light packaging...
Re:missing joystick (Score:2)
Re:All that, and more... (Score:1)
Coincidentally, I just bought a DVD from a Very Large Electronics chain. I opened up the DVD (which I bought as new), and the first thing I noticed were someone else's fingerprints and scratches on the DVD.
The DVD has annoying skips in at least two scenes(possibly due to the some of scratches, I assume). So, I go back to the store to return it tomorrow morning. Still, the fact that they sold me a somewhat defective and used DVD annoys me, and I don't intend to buy anymore DVD's from them.
hmmm (Score:1, Insightful)
I work retail. People all day long tell me "i should get a discount because that's been on display".. Can someone explain this mentality to me? You're going to take it home and OPEN THE FREAKIN BOX as soon as you get it home.. so what's it matter if I've opened it, or if you have? lol
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
If people wish to buy used things they can. There are stores that specialize in that, as well as things like Ebay.
used software (Score:1, Funny)
Re:used software (Score:2, Insightful)
virginity (Score:1)
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
I've been wondering the same thing about cars lately. I buy with (for example) 600 miles on the odometer. How many of those miles were spent at redline by some joyrider? Thank the maker I had the opportunity to have my latest bike pulled out of the crate for me. The 14 miles on it when I picked it up coincide perfectly with the test run that the shop does after final assembly.
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
Dealer trades aren't usually done by the truckful, sometimes they just have somebody drive one car from dealership a, and come back with a different car from dealership b.
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Once I bought a new scanner from Fry's but I could never get it to work properly. After trying it on several systems and spending 45 minutes with a tech on the phone, I finally decided that it was just defective. I returned it, but knowing that they were just going to stick it back on the shelves, I left a note describing what was wrong with it under the lid. At least the next customer will know what they're getting and won't waste any time on it. It makes you wonder if their defective products ever get returned to the manufacturer or do they just pass through multiple customers until one of them waits too long to return it and gets stuck with it.
Re:hmmm (Score:3, Insightful)
> I mean, really. Who could honestly care if the software's been opened, and resealed, and why?
It's somewhat irritating to buy a piece of software and find the registration key is all over the 'net and the game servers won't let you on.
I've personally bought a game that presumably was repackaged, since the CD was all scratched and the manual
had dirty fingerprints all over it.
Sure, the shop replaced it with a fresh one, but that was 3 hours of my life wasted (the time trying to get it to work and returning it when it didn't).
When I buy a piece of software sold as "new", or a book,I expect it to actually be new! Anything else
is a rip off. Doesn't matter if many people don't mind.
It's false advertising, deceptive, and *I* mind.
Books - I enjoy the feel and smell of a fresh unread book.
- Muggins the Mad
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Well, when I'm buying GameBoy Advance games I care. Many GBA games store game save data in either EEPROM, SRAM or Flash ROM, and with some games you do not have the option of completely clearing the game save data. Sonic Advance is one in particular that won't delet all the saved information. (If you use the 'Delete Data' option in Sonic Advance, it still remembers how many rings you had collected, and that can cause problems with the 'Tiny Chao' sub-game.)
I don't normally play a lot of games, but when I do, I like to find the secrets and unlock game extras myself. I don't want to enter cheat codes and I definitely don't want someone else to have unlocked parts of the game for me.
Besides, if I buy a second-hand product (of any type, not just software) then I refuse to pay the full price for it. If the store has re-wrapped a second-hand product and sells it a full price, then I would be talking to the local Csumer Afairs department about false/misleading product labelling.
Testing (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, most employees took the software home, copied it, and never played it again, but hey. It's the thought that counts, right?
It's more worrisom with hardware (Score:2)
IMHO, the problem is worse with hardware, at least in that there is more risk of damage. I recently bought a "new," shrink-wrapped CD-burner, installed it on a Linux box I was putting together, and popped it open to stick in a blank CD...only to find that there already was a CD in it, with a hand-written lable and some bootlegged MS Windows game on it.
My best guess is that someone
-- MarkusQ
Re: (Score:1)
Worked in retail before.... (Score:2)
I would advise against calling them out....... (Score:2)
You appear to misunderstand... (Score:1)
Beat them at their own game (Score:3, Insightful)
Try offering your customers a 14-day "no questions asked" returns policy. As long as they have the receipt, and the goods are in mint condition (opened is OK, damaged in any way is not) then give them a refund if they want it.
Of course, you should try to get some customer feedback - find out why the game is being returned, whether it won't run, they can't get past the first mission, or it's just not suitable for little Johnny - and try to be as helpful as possible. Where appropriate, suggest alternative courses of action - ask if customers tried downloading relevant drivers and patches, tell them how to beat the first bad guy or sell them a hint book, or suggest an alternative title instead. But always stick to the policy - if the customer wants his money back, then give it to him.
Sure, going down this route has a drawback. There are always going to be one or two that abuse the system - you'll spot them the fifth time they return a game without ever keeping a selection -but they come with the territory. (There are ways of dealing with those kinds of customers on an individual basis, such as not selling to them at all, but better to ignore them in the long run. Just let them know you're watching them and that'll do the trick 90 per cent of the time.)
But the real benefit of this policy (providing you promote and advertise it properly) is that people who wouldn't normally come into your store will walk across your threshhold. They'll come in and buy stuff - whether it's for themselves, their kids or whoever - because they'll have peace of mind that if something goes wrong then they won't be stuck with a turkey. And once they've had a good customer service experience they'll come back for more and bring their friends with them.
The bottom line is this: the better you treat your customers, the better they'll treat you. Give them great prices and great customer service and they'll never shop elsewhere again.
(Oh yeah, and if you're feeling real creative, try putting together some kind of customer reward scheme - buy ten titles get the next one free, that sort of thing. Or promote games as they launch - free stuff, like posters, with new titles. Bonus rewards for preordering upcoming releases. If you give it, they will come.)
Good luck.
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:3, Insightful)
my wife and I own and run a childrens retail/consignment store where we sell clothing, shoes, cribs, dressers, rockers, toys, Lil Tikes, Step 2, etc. we treat our customers right, sell them the product they want, put it together for them, and even do deliveries at reasonable cost (no profit).
Our policy clearly states that we do not take returns due to the nature of our business. We have had customers buy a Step 2 playhouse, tell us "It's for my 4 yr old's birthday this weekend!", and then try to bring it back on Monday because "little Cindy didn't like it". yeah right! you bought the playhouse for the kids at the birthday party to play in! you forget that we run a business and hear every excuse in the book. kids love those things and I've never seen one hate them yet.
or how about this one I've heard from other mom/pop retailers in their fields? Suzy came in and bought a $500 prom dress. she brought it back a week later, AFTER THE PROM, and said "My boyfriend dumped me the night before so I couldn't go. See? The tags are still on it."
Really? Then how do you explain the armpit sweatstains and (obviously) beer smell on the dress? Consumers try to buy those needleguns that retailers use to price tag their items with so they can re-attach price tags.
Do you really believe we just fell off the turnip truck? those bigger corps like Toys 'R Us and Babies 'R Us lie to and cheat their customers. we actually sell product at MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price).
sorry, we're not Toys 'R Us and are not financially sound enough to accept returns based on your lies. you want to exchange it for something else of similar value, not a problem! otherwise, no refunds unless it is clearly damaged. (which they never are!)
we deal straight with our customers, and by virtue of our no-returns policy, we force the dis-honest ones to be straight with us. if there is a real problem, we take care of it. I've had customers tell me after a whole ordeal they were not completely satisfied but they understood that I had done what I could to remedy the situation. Now THAT'S customer service!
you want some baby/children goods at a good price? come visit us at www.carousel-kids.com (yes, I know the design really sucks) or shoot me an email at carousel_kids@hotmail.com . I can't promise you will save money, I can't even promise you will get a better deal here rather than elsewhere. I can promise that you won't get screwed around. I'll let you know upfront with no b.s.
For those interested, we are located in Austin, TX, USA. Got any questions? send them to me!
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
We both know that 90 per cent of customers are as good as gold - they'll never give you a moment's hassle - but the other 10 per cent will test your patience. Well, frankly, that's life. Like I said, there are always going to be one or two that abuse the system.
Unfortunately, it's these 10 per cent who'll take up 50 per cent of your time - or at least it will feel that way.
I'm not going to teach you how to run your business (just like I'm not going to teach my grandmother how to suck eggs) but how you deal with that 10 per cent can make or break your business. Firm but fair works (as I'm sure you've found out yourself) but giving them a free ride or over-aggressiveness on your part doesn't (the former because it's you who foots the bill, the latter because they'll bad mouth you all over town every chance they get).
But, here's a secret: when things go genuinely wrong and you do your best to put things right, and show the customer that you're trying hard to do the right thing by them, then that customer will respect you and come back again. If you just write them off as "just one sale" though, then you'll never see (or sell to them) again.
(Just remember that, even though there are some people out there dishonest enough to treat you as a hire store, not everyone's the same. And, occasionally, you do have to give as good as you get.)
Bottom line's still the same: the better you treat your customers, the better they'll treat you.
(On a personal note, I can't say I'll be buying anything from you soon but that's because I live six time zones and several thousand miles away. All the best to you too.)
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
Places that sell things at msrp cheat their customers considering the actual price a store pays for something is 1/10 of what the msrp is.. thats why stores can afford to have x% off sales.. you still make money on sometime until it is 70-75% off and even then you are still making enough to cover the initial cost and a little extra..
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
I've never seen a retail operation that only paid 10% of MSRP for their goods. Markups vary quite a bit between different industries.
Retail operations also have high costs. If it was easy to make big bucks in retail, there wouldn't be so many bankruptcies.
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
Not that it's easily done, but have you considered approaching other independents in the wider area? Perhaps if you formed some kind of collective purchasing group you could get the price you pay for new software knocked down a bit.
It's not easy to do, and it involves more work on your part (convincing other owners that it's a good idea, then convincing the distributors, etc) but it might be worth a try. If it doesn't work then you're no worse off, if it does then you've helped your bottom line.
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:1)
if I was to get together with other mom/pop stores in our area for our product and let's agree to keep all our prices within a certain range, and at a minimum level so customers can't play us off against each other, that could be considered criminal conduct a.k.a. 'racketeering'. but then again, how do we small guys compete against mega-stores?
it's a tough go for a lot of small mom/pop's
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:1)
example:
I need to make $15,000/mth in gross sales just to break even.
electricity- $250
rent (3500) - $4700
employees - $1500
unemployment - $400
social security taxes - $800
insurance - $180
Total so far = $7830
cost of inventory - $5700 (add 75% markup)
cost of shipping - $400
sales tax collected - $825 (on $10,000 in sales)
Total = $14,755
Now, if I was to kick the employee out (but I have 2 stores) and work myself, that would earn me a salary of @ $9.5/hr. All that work just to make $9.5/hr!
But I'm worth more, so I triple my salary ($4500/mth), make appropriate adjustments in unemployment, social security, and increased inventory, and the number I come up with in minimum sales is now..... @ $22,000!
As you can see, these are extremely simplified figures. In reality, the numbers get closer to $30,000/mth in sales just to be able to pull off something like this.
Which is why I will say it again. Do not run retail, have people pay you for what you know. That way you don't have any inventory, pay rent, collect sales tax, property insurance and all the other necessary crap for doing business in retail.
I could make more money by raising prices, but then my customers will just go elsewhere.
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:1)
You don't know jack about retail.
If you think I mark-up product 1000%, it's obvious you don't know sh*t. MY average markup on an item is between 70-80%, depending on what it is selling for in the local competition stores. The big retail chains may be making money on those x% off sales but then again, what do you expect when THEY can get it for cheaper than me?
if you own/run a retail business, this is what you will pay for:
-employee/customer theft
-inventory
-shipping to get the inventory to you from the manufacturer
-rent
-property taxes (because rental space is that tight and the landlords can squeeze)
-franchise tax (to the city)
-property tax on property the business owns (to the city) and needs in order to conduct business
-electric and water utilities
-salaries
-unemployment to the state unemployment commission to support all those people on welfare w/o jobs
-social security taxes
-your accountant to keep the books
-insurance for the building (landlord required)
-the rent going up every year a certain percentage since it is assumed your business will grow
-dealing with asshole customers (like you) who think we are ripping them off with 1000% mark-up
so until you've had a retail business, I would suggest you go back to your business classes at WIU, tell the professors they don't know jack about business models, and then start your own business and go thru the daily bullshit that we go thru...
maybe you will actually learn something....
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:1)
in reality, who should be paying this tax to support unemployed people? should it be coming from federal income taxes? or should it be dinked from the sales of goods? the way the system is setup, if there are any claims against me from a former employee, then I have to pay a higher rate, unless I can prove I fired the employee for cause.
Want an example? I had an employee we finally caught stealing stuff and selling it to customers on the side. I docked it from her paycheck and then fired her. I had PROOF! My dispute of her claim was denied and she was given benefits because I was not allowed to dock it from her paycheck (state law) even though I fired her for cause. How's that for getting screwed by the system?
Unemployment is a tax, I'll show you right where it says that on my forms I have to fill out monthly for the state of Texas.
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:1)
Re:Beat them at their own game (Score:2)
In the area we are located, and size of our business forbids the "no questions asked policy". If we started it, We would become a rental store, or we would have to keep black lists of certain customers (lots of them) "Banned" from the store. Plus we've found it not to be an issue, we'll always take defective items back within 30 days, we try repair first, and then offer the customer something else for the same price. Very rarely someone will Demand a refund, and we take those on a case by case basis. But on the whole most people don't want their money back, they want a game. The only people that get indignant about a cash refund are the people you Know would abuse it if given the chance.
"Of course, you should try to get some customer feedback - find out why the game is being returned, whether it won't run, they can't get past the first mission, or it's just not suitable for little Johnny - and try to be as helpful as possible. Where appropriate, suggest alternative courses of action - ask if customers tried downloading relevant drivers and patches, tell them how to beat the first bad guy or sell them a hint book, or suggest an alternative title instead. But always stick to the policy - if the customer wants his money back, then give it to him."
Since we let most used games be peviewed on the store systems, we have very little "this game sucks" returns, often this leads to "this game sucks" no sale for us. But I'd rather lose a sale, then have the customer feel cheated. I do the upsells of strategy guides, and the suggestive sells of "if you like Spyro, try Crash."
"Sure, going down this route has a drawback. There are always going to be one or two that abuse the system - you'll spot them the fifth time they return a game without ever keeping a selection -but they come with the territory. (There are ways of dealing with those kinds of customers on an individual basis, such as not selling to them at all, but better to ignore them in the long run. Just let them know you're watching them and that'll do the trick 90 per cent of the time.)"
With our customer base, one or two is a huge understatement. I have to tell people on a daily basis to take their obviously stolen goods somewhere else, when the same kid tries to sell 5 different gameboys to you in as many weeks, you know whats up. Maybe at some point if we can get our little franchise built up a little, then we can go mainstream, but untill then we have to stay in business.
"But the real benefit of this policy (providing you promote and advertise it properly) is that people who wouldn't normally come into your store will walk across your threshhold. They'll come in and buy stuff - whether it's for themselves, their kids or whoever - because they'll have peace of mind that if something goes wrong then they won't be stuck with a turkey. And once they've had a good customer service experience they'll come back for more and bring their friends with them."
People of all walks already come into our store (more ads definitely needed though), and like I said before we will not stick anyone with turkeys. I'm not trying to be defensive here but It's important to understand we will take anything back, but the only Item we give cash refunds for is unopened still wrapped new games, movies, whatever. Once it is opened, it's used. plain and simple. We'll give store credit for the used price, but no cash. It's worked very well for us and has kept a lot of trouble out of the store.
"The bottom line is this: the better you treat your customers, the better they'll treat you. Give them great prices and great customer service and they'll never shop elsewhere again."
God I wish that were true. We sell most everything for less. We have excellent customer service. But since we're not a mega chain, we are not deemed "cool" by the masses. And I've asked customers why they ever go to these places, and they usually say they just HAD to have that game on release day. Never mind the fact we would have had it a week later for five dollars less, They HAD to have it. People are sheep, and will go wherever TV tells them to.
"(Oh yeah, and if you're feeling real creative, try putting together some kind of customer reward scheme - buy ten titles get the next one free, that sort of thing. Or promote games as they launch - free stuff, like posters, with new titles. Bonus rewards for preordering upcoming releases. If you give it, they will come.)"
Tried sales. Buy three get one free. Management had ideas about if they paid for the item to come into the store, it should be paid for to leave the store. I know, I'm still trying to knock sense in. Clubs or punchcards are flaky at best from my personal experiance. But then I HAD to sell (thats right, membership fee) a club at a certain bookstore I worked at. Underhanded dosen't even begin to describe that experiance... As for preorders and promotional material, I wish to god I could get my hands on some. Being such a small business, we have to go through a secondary distributor which means no release day titles, no displays, no nothing.
"Good luck"
Thanks. we'll need it. People just don't want to buy local, they have to have the absolute latest greatest thing (ex: Xbox). But on the upside almost daily I get people wandering in looking for something to justify that xbox... besides freakin' Halo. I wish I could belive superior customer service and lower prices are truly what consumers wanted. They want the illusion of being better than they are. They get this walking into one of those mega chain stores. Most people frequenting our mall would consider themselves too good to be in our store. Of course when I get better fixture, a decent inventory and cash management system going, and the damn website linked to the inventory database... Thanks for the insights, you raised some valid points, and I hope there's more posts on this topic like that.
Nobody likes a rat (Score:2)
All the more value to the customer (Score:2)
Come to think of it, my copy of FF7 from a now defunct Japanese gaming retail chain was scratched to high heck and was utterly unplayable. The guy at the store admitted it was probably resealed, but had no idea how it got as bad as it did.
And that's really it. I don't mind buying software that has been opened... It's not like you're buying a Coke or an OpenCola that has been half drunk. What I mind, and I think your store is picking up on, is the deception. I think most people are reasonable enough to realize that 40 dollars for a used copy of Zelda is a better deal than 50 dollars for a new one, and if the store worker had to preview it in order to properly recommend for or against... all the more value to the customer.
Ah well, there are 400 posts on this topic and rising, and many empassioned pleas one way or the other. Either way you decide to go, be sure to take full advantage of your decision. If you go resealing, that means you should have a full no-risk return policy with lots of point-of-sale publicity. (Not sure if you will like the new GTA3? Try it for 15 days... if you don't like it you can return it for a full refund). If you decide to go no-resealing, make sure your literature says specifically the names of the stores you know are cheating. You may be pressed to back that up in court, but I get the feeling that this is something these companies don't want proven in front of a judge. If for no other reason than this is a clear, if common, misrepresentation of a product.
Good luck! The independents really make this hobby worthwile.
Re:All the more value to the customer (Score:2)
it's not just the employees (Score:1)
This happens all the time with CDs too, those tabs at the top are crap, because you can get it out the bottom easily, look for the outside stickers!
Start With ... (Score:1)
Re:Start With ... (Score:2)
more than dishonest? (Score:1)
Re:more than dishonest? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Beware in IL (Score:2)
Re:Beware in IL (Score:1)
But back to the point. If the company opens said 'product' and it happens to be software, are they then able to be held liable under the EULA? After all, just by opening most software you are agreeing to that companies EULA.
What direction would this lead in...as I have put absolutly no thought into it since I dont 'buy' that crappy software in the first place.
Who ya gonna call? (Score:3)
horror stories from computer store (Score:1)