Painless Chairs? 56
Tarrek asks: "Eight or more hours of sitting and slouching with my feet propped up in an uncomfortable, half broken computer chair every single day for years has begun to take it's toll on my back, and I'm still quite young. I was wondering if the slashdot community might have any ideas with regards to a new chair, or just types and designs of chairs, that might be a little kinder to my back, as well as being comfortable enough to sit properly in for an extended period of time?" This is a revisit to a question from two years ago. That was then, what does the picture look like, now?
I like these... (Score:2, Interesting)
they look good and are comfortable and ergonomic...
Get out of the chair! (Score:5, Insightful)
I also have an office job, but I try to change possition as much as possible. I do a lot of phoning while Im walking around (for long phone calls I go to the garden). For writing documents I take my laptop to any place I like; sometimes I even sit on the floor. Furthermore, even though I have a good quality chair, I change my chair every few hours with my colleague, who has a different model. The point is to move around.
Re:Get out of the chair! (Score:2)
No chair is going to be fun for hours at a stretch. I don't think you should ever sit in a chair for more than an hour without a minute or two's break to walk around, stand up, sit on the floor, lie down, whatever.
I have always found that the more adjustments there are, the less comfortable the chair is. I have what is probably a 'normal' office chair with the usual foam padding, adjustable up/down/back stiffness etc, etc. It's fairly uncomfortable, and annoys me after a couple of hours.
Compare this with any number of restaurants where I have happily sat through a 3 hour meal in a simple old wooden chair with a seat cushion and a straight back. Sure, sometimes these old wooden chairs are uncomfortable, but usually I find the standard Georgian/Victorian kitchen chair with wide, curved wooden seat and nearly straight back
to be remarkably comfortable.
At university I sat 3 hour finals exams sitting on a moulded plastic stacking chair without any back pain problems.
Re:Get out of the chair! (Score:1)
Re:Get out of the chair! (Score:2)
But if you can't get up (and sometimes when I'm programming I hate to break my concentration), the solution I like is to use an exercise ball as a chair.
The one I use is the Thera-Band [thera-band.com], which I like fine, but I haven't tried other brands. Note that they you what size you should get based on your height, but that's for use as an exercise ball, not as a chair; I ended up buying a bigger one because the recommended one was a little too low.
Why is this better than a chair? The main difference is that you are always moving a little. On a chair, you can slump like an overcooked noodle. On a ball, you have to keep balanced, so your muscles are more active. There are also more possible positions with the ball, and I often find myself switching among them.
Don't throw away your old chair, though; I tend to switch every couple of days between the ball and the regular chair.
Between this and regular yoga, my back has improved a lot.
Re:Get out of the chair! (Score:1)
Get a Google Ball (Score:1)
Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:5, Informative)
Some complain about the cost, but for me, not having pain in my back and shoulders are well worth it. (I'm 6'6" so finding comfortable furniture is often a challenge for me too.) They last forever, allow you to customize just about every aspect you care about (height/tilt/recline/arm height/optional lumbar), and fade transparently into the background, like a good working enviroment should. The only time you'll even notice the chair is if it's missing, or someone tried to replace it with something lesser (i.e. just about any other chair).
If it's coming out of your pocket look around for a good price. With the dot com bust, I was able to pick up a used one for home use for about $200.
-Bill
Re:Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:1)
The most expensive item in my room, but also the thing I use the most. (Well besides my glasses.
no such thing as perfect, diversity rules (Score:3, Interesting)
Like the last guy, I'm extra tall. 6'5" but with most of my height in my back. I drive my MGA looking over top of the windscreen. When I tried the Herman Miller it wasn't a good fit for. The large model belongs in the kind of Big & Tall shop, where you find one pair of jeans in every style with a 36" inseam, but every waste size all the way up to 60" for every pair of slacks in the store. I felt like a toothpick sitting in the size C chair and I'm 230lbs right now. Also I didn't like the metal hoop behind my shouldblades since it prevented me from stretching my arms behind my neck.
Instead I bought myself an expensive Leap chair from Steelcase. Every adjustment under the sun, and pretty well made. Only it doesn't work for me. There is a pivot in the back rest to cause the lumbar support to track your posture. For me the pivot is too low in the back. I have to completely disable the recline feature because the pivot is increasing stress rather than support. Another small complaint is the the seat padding isn't thick enough for someone with my body mass without extra padding of my own. I can sometimes feel the screw heads inside the plastic seat tray.
I have a nonbranded chair here at half the price I use more often. It functions on a completely different concept. This has a clamshell pivot under the seat pan, which means the pivot for the seat tray is just behind your knees. Instead of having the usual lumbar curve, it has a cylindrical shape that folds behind my ribs and gives me extra rib support. There is a bit of extra padding behind the lumbar, but not as pronounced as many chairs. It also has the ability to reach a positive seat inclination (where you are tipped forward toward your work area). This chair is comfortable when I'm power hacking in the foward position, and comfortable when I'm in deep though and deep recline.
The secret, however, is not to use just one chair. I find it helps a lot to switch between the two chairs on alternate days, or sometimes during the day. This way I don't get all the stress on one place all the time.
I think variety is the key here. I don't think I'm ever going to find that one perfect chair which I can sit in all day long and not have back pain.
Another comment I want to make is be very careful about mouse and keyboard placement. I once went to a back clinic that made me wear a giant X on my back made from two strips of masking tape. It's a useful exercise because the tape reminds you when your posture is off kilter. It tears out your back hairs! I discovered that my back problem (on that iteration) was entirely caused by my mouse usage. My keyboard posture was exceptional, but I twisted my torso slightly to the right to use the mouse and I was doing a mouse intensive project at the time.
Since then I created a platform over my numeric keypad where my mouse sits (on a giant FuncSurface mouse pad) and I've never had mouse related back pain since. During that episode I spent more time with my back on the floor and my legs in my chair than the other way around. That tiny twist was really bad for me.
The top of your monitor should be at eye level or just below. Don't put it up so high you are looking straight at the center.
My last remaining ergonomic problem with my desk is that I'm running two systems so I have another keyboard on the desk above the main keyboard tray, and another mouse at this level as well. It's harder on my hands to type on the top keyboard, and harder on my back to use the top mouse. Soon I'm going to get a KVM so I can exclusively use the better arrangement. Actually, it is probably not bad for my back to use the high keyboard occasionally. I think variety is a good thing. But the high mouse has no redeeming qualities. Sometimes I drag it down to the main mouse surface, but I really don't like having both mice in the same place. It's hard enough already to grab the right input device.
A final comment here: it isn't always your chair/desk either. You can be causing your problems with a bad bed, and then suffering during the day because you are already inflamed.
I recently purchased a Latex rubber mattress and this has improved my pain at night immensely. A good latex mattress will only compress a few percent over twenty years. Spring mattresses have never worked for me. I get a futon just right, two weeks later it gets a dent and I have to start over.
Some people claim that armrests cause more problems than they solve because people get lazy about their posture when they have armrests. Sometimes what kills you is half an inch. I have to be very careful because I've never owned a chair yet where the armrests come all the way up to my arms, including chairs that claim to be designed for the very tall.
There is no best chair (Score:2)
More to the point, I've seen people who are only comfortable standing and leaning against a wooden stool and I've seen others only able to work using semi-reclining full ergo outfits.
Other posts say to exercise. They are correct. The other thing is to move while you work. Change your position. Pull that keyboar into your lap for an hour, stand-up during those compiles. There are a number of workstations for assembly work that use moterized tables that slowly go up and down over the course of a day to prevent injury. Remember we are talking about repetative strain here, so don't repeat the strain.
Re:Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:2)
This isn't the chair for you if you like to cross your legs.. I used it for about 4 months and it was great for both sitting back when in deep thought and leaning forward for coding. Not to mention the only chair I've ever gotten the elbow rests to be useful on. But I have bad knees from a couple childhood accidents so I need to move them even if I'm just sitting somewhere for an hour and those tough plastic moldings holding the seat can get super unconfortable if you cross your legs.
Re:Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:2)
Personally, I hate my aeron.
I just sit in it because it's easier than sitting in my old chair and answering my boss' questions about why I don't like my $1800 chair.
Here's what I do appreciate:
- I LOVE the "fabric" they're made out of.
- I love that the arm rests are adjustable.
- I like that the lumbar support comes off -- it's sitting on my desk -- yes, I've tried it extensively in and out.
Overall, though, I don't find the chair comfortable. We added forward-tilt last week, so it's definitely better now, but my back was much more comfortable in my old (mid-range -- $50-100) chair. My lower back actually HURTS now when I sit in anything BUT the aeron. This was never a problem before. And my upper-back/neck get sore when I _do_ sit in it.
Definitely not worth the boatload of cash we had to shell out for them, if you ask me.
Unsatisfied, to say the least.
My co-workers seem to really like theirs, though.
S
Re:Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:2)
It was the best $1000 (early adopter) of my own money I ever spent. I took it to an office I was freelancing in and a co worker immediately ran out and bought one herself.
A year or so later, I was working in an office where Aeron chairs were the standard leased office furniture. They sucked. It turns out that there are two versions of the Aeron. One has the tilt forward feature and one does not. The "does not" version is a nice chair but it doesn't have the" invisible force keeping you suspended in air" feeling of the more expensive version.
I just tried a chair that Knoll makes, that is even better that the Aeron for about $600, that I think I might get to replace my Aeron.
Re:Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:1)
the spring loaded reclining feature. I can lean
way back and still be supported and stable, for
people who lean back on two legs when using four
legged chairs. I also removed the lumbar support
entirely. I hate sitting in other chairs for any
length of time.
Re:Still the Best: Herman Miller Aeron (Score:2)
Another complaint i had is that the chair eats through pants. My previous workplace's dress code dictated slacks at certain times, and the managers agreed.. Aeron's acted like sandpaper. Ate through the damn things after a while if you scooted around too much.
Ditto - I Had The Same (Score:3, Informative)
Technically, my company could have been in a bit of trouble because they are responsible for my health and saftey at work.
The posture chairs are quite good - the look funny and need a bit of getting used to (mine looked a bit like this [metu.edu.tr]). Additionally, you also have a minor problem with the fact that you slowley lose the hairs on your shins!
However, what works for me might not work for you. Your best bet is to consult a specialist, otherwise you might damage your back further. Remember - your health and saftey at work should be your companies responsibility. Ask them to sort it out.
Steve.
Re:Ditto - I Had The Same (Score:3, Informative)
Like many things, back pain is caused by a number of factors, most of which are poorly understood, yet there are a few good solutions that are routinely ignored.
- Sit with comfortable monitor height and keyboard height. Forearms level, not leaning or craning the neck.
- Get up and stretch periodically. Consider a massage.
- Find a chair that is comfortable.
- Get excercise. You can sit longer if your back muscles are stronger. Try yoga. Read that again: YOU CAN SIT LONGER IF YOUR BACK MUSCLES ARE STRONGER. Try yoga, and look for classes/studios with a lot of people in your age group.
- Acknowledge that it might be psychological. This does not mean "it's in your head": it means that stress will make you hurt, especially if you don't take care of yourself otherwise.
Not exactly rocket science, but it got me back from a back injury and keeps me pain free (as long as I follow my own rulesWorks in theory (Score:2)
Now, SOP at this company is that you can ask for an "ergonomic evaluation" and a company expert will approve necessary changes to your workspace. So he does this, and gets an expensive HermanMiller Aeron chair -- with no more armrest padding than he had before. And he still has that ugly workaround. Somebody didn't do their homework!
no writing on paper=no desk chair needed (Score:3, Insightful)
The best thing so far has been a big easy chair. A few years ago I used a standard recliner, and now it's just a swivel rocker. As long as you can lower your monitor (via an arm or just by lowering the desk), it's really comfortable and gives good back support with a lumbar pillow. The keyboard goes on my lap, the mouse on the armrest (use one of the new optical mice). A wireless set is best but cords work too.
As far as the cultural issues go, I find it's fine as long as your workplace looks reasonably progressive. The biggest problem is that other people are going to want to sit in your chair (or if they're waiting for you to come back to your desk you might find them in your chair and they won't want to get out of it).
Stokke (Score:3, Interesting)
I had the same problem: sore back and neck for too much time in front of my PC.
Then a friend of mine showed me her chair: a Stokke Multi [stokke.com]. I then went to a shop and bought a Stokke Variable [stokke.com].
They may look strange, without back nor armrests, but I find them both really comfortable. The Variable, in particular, lets you oscillate forward and backward, finding the best position for you back.
Re:Stokke (Score:1)
After suffering an episode of severe backtrouble at the worst imaginable moment (my wife had just given birth to daughter) I went out and bought a Stokke Wing [stokke.com].
My old chair was as good as traditional chairs may go, but I haven't had any pain at all now for two years. And I sit on this beautiful constraption for at least eight hours a day.
Re:Stokke (Score:1)
Re:Stokke (Score:1)
The idea is good. There is NOTHING better than an erect posture to deal with neck/back issues. The problem is that it is not comfortable, but it beats the alternative. I have achieved a
back-friendly mod by removing the arms from standard office chairs I am given and then placing the back rest down so far that I can't really lean against it. It forces me to sit erect (no sniggering now!).
Works about as well as anything else I've tried
and it's free (!).
Re:Stokke (Score:1)
Mark
Change you desk too (Score:2, Insightful)
We weren't meant to be sitting on our asses al the time. There are desks that can be elevated so that you can work standing up, which might help your back.
Also you should move around when you can, instead of calling your collegue down the corridor walk over to his office with your question, might be good for the social work environment too
Get the right desk too. (Score:3, Insightful)
Just by comparing how friends who do get aches sit compared to me I'd say the most important part isn't the chair. Most people tend to have their keyboard so close to the edge of the desk that they can't rest anything on the desk surface. Personally I have a desk with a "corner" for the monitor, it supports even a 21" with lots of room to spare.
This allows me to have a keyboard 10-20cm from the edge of the desk. Since it's a natural type keyboard this let's me rest my elbows on the desk.
I've found that those times I get aches from school I it's because their setup doesn't allow me to rest my arms.
This guys problem is obvious (Score:3, Informative)
Sit up straight and put your feet down. The human body can handle sitting just fine. Slouching puts up to 60% more pressure on your back, and even more if you put your feet up.
Your mother yelled at you to sit up straight for a reason when you were 5.
Happened to me a few months ago. (Score:3, Informative)
Get a chair with a high back that also has lumbar support and adjustable arm rests. Make sure the middle of your monitor is directly at eye level. When you type, rest your arms on the arm rests. Get something to prop up your feet about 2 inches.
And very importantly, never stay sitting down for longer than an hour if you can help it. But just don't get up. Stretch when you get up.
Eye Level? (Score:2)
Exercise (Score:4, Informative)
I had back problems from sitting in chairs for 8-12 hours as well. My doc told me "just get off my ass" and get some exercise, and that a comfy chair was just exacerbating the problem.
I took his advice, and bought a snowboard and kayak instead of a chair. I still have the same chair, and the back problems are gone.
Look to the airlines (Score:2)
Like many things today, I think that expensive chairs are little more than a combination of marketing hype and psychological effect - after all, you must be getting some bang for your buck, right? Well, perhaps not as much as you might think. I know that I have an atrocious sitting posture, a cheap chair at work and a slightly more expensive one (leather, but still under £150 new) at home, yet no back problems. Why? Probably because I spend as little time as possible sitting in the things. When I need to ponder some problem I get up and wander around (preferably outside), I go and talk to people instead of reaching for the phone where possible.
Of course, we are all unique so YMMV, but for me motion beats luxorious comfort everytime, so why not give it a shot? It's free to try ans it might just save you enough money to go out and do something fun, or if you really must upgrade that graphics card again...
Chair Height (Score:1)
Freedom Chair (Score:4, Informative)
I tried the Aeron [hermanmiller.com], but didn't really like it. Yes, the mesh was nice in terms of support and ventilation, but it took endless tweaking to adjust, and I never could quite get it to fit me properly. (On second thought, the endless tweaking just might endear it to most
I also tried out the Leap [steelcase.com] (by Steelcase). The flexible back was interesting, but still too hard to adjust.
In contrast, the Freedom is incredibly simple. There are three settings to make it fit your size: seat height, seat depth, and back height. These controls are intuitively placed and easy to reach without looking while seated.
The only other two adjustable bits (back tilt and armrest height) don't have 'controls' per se. They just move with you. Push back a little bit, and the seat back tilts back until you stop pushing. When you stop pushing, it supports you. It's really uncanny. (They did some very clever counterweight thing so that this provides the proper support and control regardless of your weight.) The left and right armrests always adjust to the same height, no thought or effort required. You just pull either armrest (or both) up or down, they both move, and then they stay in position. (They also drop lower than your lap, if you want to get rid of them effectively.)
The ease of adjustability is what makes this chair encourage you to move. You don't have to think at all to change your sitting position. You just move.
I have no affiliation with Humanscale other than being very happy with my chair.
Get some exercise (Score:1)
Re:Get some exercise (Score:1)
Here was my fix
1 hour jogging, 3 morning per week. Plus weight lifting on saturday.
BTW, I'm not the sport/muscular kind of guy. Normal skinny feeble geek.
Also, living in a decent city (like Montreal) where you can walk to work (and stay alive) will do you good.
Echo, echo (Score:3, Interesting)
In addition to the advice to get out of your chair more often, let me add a reference [backbenimble.com] to an invaluable book to help with back pain.
It's also at Amazon.
I've slouched in computer chairs for years and still do. But a reckless and stupid decision to do some back bending repetitive work a few years ago left my back quite sore - as in takes 5x as long to tie your shoe laces, can not walk faster than 1 mph sore.
The stretching exercises recommended in that book helped immensely and I still do them to this day. And I haven't had any back trouble since.
What I did.... (Score:2, Interesting)
If you go in the store the don't seem to have the ratings on the chairs themselves, but they have a catalog at the front of the store you can look at.
Old chairs and bad backs don't go together (Score:1)
Not just the chair - fix the desk, too! (Score:3, Informative)
I have a really nice chair, but like an idiot I have a lousy desk with a slide-out computer drawer that is TOO LOW for me. Thus, I have to lower the chair so my legs are not comfortable, and this causes my back to curl, and the armrests on the chair are just a smidge too low so my arms and shoulders aren't aligned right....
I know better (I researched and prepared a 150-page annotated bibliography and a 70-page thesis on the subject of "legal liability for health effects of computer use" back in 1989), but I keep telling myself that this setup is just temporary, I will change things Really Soon Now, and now it's been 3 years in this configuration.
[Sound of head banging against wall.]
freedom chair (Score:3, Interesting)
Steelcase and HON (Score:2, Informative)
We also have several HON chairs (Model #6542 [hon.com]) around the office. They are very different from the Leap, and not nearly as adjustable, but they are very comfortable.
I have found that many chairs don't fit my back very well, but these do. Of course, YMMV.
Fsck Conformity!! Save Money!! (Score:1)
- Timber [47x100, 47x50, 22x50 - all carcassing unless it's gonna be on show], and sheet material about 1/2" [12mm] or 3/4" [18mm]. It can be shuttering ply [cheap, aka CDX / Construction plywood] or Far-eastern / Brazillian if you want something prettier. Blockboard is also an option. MDF is heavy, Chipboard is weaker but may suffice.
- Foam rubber, or your preferred filling. How about bean-bag "beans"? Arse-conformity is a big factor here. When designing, bear in mind that the filling will compress in use and with age.
- Covering material, whatever you fancy. I'd go for cheap durable canvas.
- Appropriate hardware, mainly nuts+washers+bolts. As for the covering, don't staple/tack/glue it, you'll need to remove it some day. You know... for cleaning!
Hey presto!! A cool, strong, cheap computer chair that will stand as a monument to your geekness and will give you many years of loyal service. You can sort out the beer holder [+cooler?], reading light, keyboard/mouse shelves and whatnot. Hell, bolt on the monitor and you can be sure it's all set up to take the snap, crackle, and pop outta your back!Ali
Ball chairs (Score:1)
Re:Ball chairs (Score:1)
autonomous seating (Score:3, Interesting)
solution - no chair at all
why make th assumption that you need a chair? - many cultures do not and happily sit on th floor
this may be difficult to do at work due to 'cultural normalising pressure' but it is perfectly possible to set up your computer at home this way
use a very low coffee table for th keyboard and a higher one for th monitor
then learn to sit properly on th floor - two best ways are the lotus position and legs folded in a collapsed kneeling position as you see japanese ppl often doing
both of these positions give great benefit to th body - equivalent to holding an asana in yoga - th full lotus position is difficult (usually impossible) for most ppl to do at first but you can train yr body to do it by first sitting in half lotus or something easier again
simply by sitting like this yr back will be strengthened all th time you are using a computer rather than th reverse
Two Words... (Score:1)
Re:Help for lower price range please (Score:1)
Chairs that don't hurt your butt and thigh (Score:1)
Ideas?
The price we pay for computers... (Score:1)
Truth is, no matter what type of chair you use, it's not going to make any difference. How you sit and how long you sit there are the main factors. I have a habit of slouching, and putting my feet up, so I recommend not to do either of the above or anything remotely linked to them.
Our parents and other elders do have a point to their endless nagging after all - posture matters!