dazdaz asks:
"I have spent the last 12 months applying for IT positions abroad (Europe and Asia) from the UK and out of it, have had 1 offer and 3 free trips! The offer I had unfortunately was not enough to live on and only came through because a friend had recommended me. For the other 3 positions, I had seriously under-estimated the cultural differences along with the tight competition I ended up as choice number 2 several times. Just briefly: my background is web/internet/unix/sysadmin with contract experience. I am looking at permanent work abroad for the stability and long term career path. I speak basic French, and realise that not 'speaking da lingo' does cut down my chances and will start learning a language when I reach my destination. My question is, do I continue to apply from remote, both directly to companies and through Agency's or should I take the big gamble and goto a country. This is a last resort due to the global economic situation and one that scares me in that it may not pay off and with limited financial resources the risk factor is higher."
"I've also noticed that to work in Asia, Hong Kong, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan etc you generally won't get a position from remote, you need to either transfer from an existing company or just go there. I've spent some time researching expatriation to each of these country's in preperation, however going there is the real research. There are various specialist expatriate websites that are quite interesting along with a handful of expatriate books to various country's around the world.
So in a roundabout way, I've decided to become a career traveller, start out in Europe (one of Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Spain) which has a higher chance of success of getting or even continuing my IT career and then then at a later date try the big leap of working in Asia.
I'd be interested in other people's thoughts and ideas, those who plan this, those who have done this. The tight IT market has become quite ugly, even for those qualified, do you give up pursuing a dream or stride on."
My advice: Be *really* careful (Score:4, Insightful)
While I love Luxembourg and the Luxembourgish, the company I worked for were complete bastards. Their business plan seemed to be something along these lines:
1. Hire people from outside the European Union.
2. Make them work, screw them over, don't pay them on time, and then cancel their residency visas if they complain.
3. Since they aren't citizens, they have to leave pretty rapidly after the visa cancellation, making it more trouble than it's worth to sue you.
4. Profit!
Seriously, this was about how it went. When I started working at this company, they had around 45 employees. They have around six employees and five managers now. (heh) People quit because of the mistreatment, and because most of us still haven't been paid.
Okay, so, no, not all companies are like this. I'm planning on moving back to Europe just as soon as I can. Just heed my warning: You aren't a citizen, and they know that. This can make things tricky.
Re:My advice: Be *really* careful (Score:2, Informative)
American bound for Australia (Score:1)
That's it, mail order bride (Score:3, Funny)
--
PS: Yes, it can be "Funny" and "Flamebait" at the same time. Though this may be neither.
Re:That's it, mail order bride (Score:1)
But the blokes will agree - nutin' quite like an Aussi sheila!
Language Barrier (Score:2, Informative)
I'm going to get modded down -1 Troll, Flamebait, Offtopic, Racist...
BUT
Half the people I call for tech support @ IBM, Dell, ______ Software, they all can barely speak fluent English. IF they can, they have such a horrible accent it doesn't matter anway.
What are these people doing phone support for? Router configuration is the same in French/English/Klingong, but phone support?
Back on topic, I don't think the language barrier will be THAT big of a deal. At least it isn't over here.
They Are Pbly in India (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They Are Pbly in India (Score:3, Interesting)
I now patiently await a mix of moderation; I'm guessing +2 funny, -1 offtopic and -1 flamebait. *waits*
Network Solutions..? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:They Are Pbly in India (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, Indians speak superb English. Indian call centers take it very seriously, and coach their workers to learn accents that are almost identical to the Home Counties. The reason is simply that with what most of the world recognises as a "proper" English accent, they can communicate easily with most of the world which translates directly into happier customers and winning more business for their call center. Some go even further, they pay their staff to read Western newspapers and keep up to date on current affairs and soap operas so they can make smalltalk with customers who want to chat. If you call an Indian call center, you are likely to get a graduate who is well-paid in the local currency and smart enough and trusted enough to actually solve your problem then and there. If you call a British call center, you will probably get a temp on an hourly wage with an impenetrable Northern or Welsh accent who has to get a supervisor to do the most trivial tasks. Having dealt with both, all I can say is the British and American call centers seriously need to get their act together because at the moment they are lagging India in both cost and quality.
Re:They Are Pbly in India (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, a funky accent is unlikely if the call center is in India.
Depending on the language-medium of the schools they went to, (English, Hindi, Marathi, Bengali, etc.) many Indians speak English with a British accent. These are more desireable candidates for call center jobs.
My cousin in India was offered one of these jobs after completing her BComm. Before you start, you are given intensive training on how to speak with an American accent. They even give you an American persona -- like, your name is Susan, you live just outside of Chicago, you went to Ohio State, etc. Those who are unable to learn to speak with an American accent are typically placed in call centers serving the UK.
It's a premium job over there because it's steady work, good pay, they transport you from your home to the call center and back, and all you need to qualify is the ability to speak, read and write English. (Having technical skills will get you a much hire pay, but is not necessary.)
So if someone has a funky accent, chances are that they aren't located in India.
Do you know the language (Score:3, Interesting)
As for French, forget it. Unless you have a certificate from Alliance Francaise, forget it. That's the golden standard in Francophone countries. Get working. It'll take you about a year to get that -- if you pass their tests. It's not easy, the teachers are not nice.
Actually, if you have some cash, I recommend the Institute International de Rambouillet. They're pretty affordable, and the teachers are decent.
Re:Do you know the language (Score:1)
I understand the submitter's desire to find work, THEN learn the language. Keeps your options a little more open.
Re:Do you know the language (Score:1, Informative)
countries already. They don't *need* to bring in English
only speakers who have the same skills when they can
hire skilled locals.
I speak as a European who has worked there and in
the US right now.
Re:Do you know the language (Score:1)
Canada! (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it's time we turned around what we here call the "brain drain"!
I'm not entirely joking either. We may not sound exotic, but Canada is a great place to live! There is a great standard of living (health benefits, etc). We have some fantastic cities too! Out here on the West coast in Alberta, it's a mountain biking mecca in the summer, and Calgary, for example, is only 1 hour from many major ski resorts in the winter. And if you are afraid of the cold, not only are Vancouver and Victoria wonderful coastal cities, they rarely get snow. And thanks to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), I'm assuming it would be as easy for Americans to work in Canada as it was for me to work in America - with a letter of employment in certain fields you get a 1 year TN visa at the airport on the way out (doesn't get much easier than that).
Yeah, and like, we are nice too eh!
Re:Canada! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Canada! (Score:1)
Re:Canada! (Score:1)
NO JOBS in CANADA. (Score:1)
have you looked at monster.ca's job forums ? Canada has a nearly 65% unemployment rate for IT...the highest in north america.
moving here ? youve got to be kidding.
Re:Canada! (Score:2)
and the pay was great, but that was during the
height of the bubble madness, and it didn't last
very long before the place foundered on the
incompetence of management. No complains, though.
They rescued me from the hell of working for Sun
by paying more in salaray than I was getting in
stock options (no easy feat), and let me telecommute
100% -- and my co-workers were way cool, way smart
people. In general, however, your Canadian salary
is still lower than U.S., and is paid in play
money worth about 65 cents on the dollar to boot.
But Canada is really cool. Now if only they didn't
have such a horrible corrupt government....
Research Groups? (Score:2)
That sort of experience will allow you to show your emplyer that you are not going to run away because of the culture etc.
Why do you want to work abroad? (Score:2)
If you think that the financial situation is better elsewhere, it isn't.
Stay at home. (Score:1)
Taking a risk such as moving abroad, while adventurous and assertive, might be quite a sting considering today's economy. While you're free to choose your own path, I'd suggest you wait until things settle down or you confirm a job offer that you can live off of.
Are you kidding? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Oh, you meant overseas...
MNC's (Score:2, Insightful)
I work for a large multi-national company that has offices all over the world. I met a guy from our Singapore office who said that they were looking for transfers. So I applied and worked there for over a year. We had a great time, and our standard of living was much better than "washing dishes to pay for the trip".
If you want to go to Europe, work for a European company in your home country. If you want to go to Asia, work for an Asian company. Then build those contacts!
Re:MNC's (Score:1)
> offices all over the world. I met a guy from our
> Singapore office who said that they were looking
> for transfers. So I applied and worked there for
> over a year. We had a great time, and our standard
> of living was much better than "washing dishes to
> pay for the trip".
And on the other hand, some of my coworkers took an opportunity that the company offered to work in London for a few months. (Their IT shop wasn't in good shape.)
Actually, it turned out to be pretty great, and their jobs were there went they got back. But they were paid in pounds during their tour. (And they have come back with some strange mental ailment where they find a pub to be some strange sort of center of culture.)
Going about it the wrong way? (Score:4, Insightful)
had seriously under-estimated the cultural differences Then what are you looking for
looking at permanent work abroad for the stability and long term career path This is inconsistent with your desire to be a "world traveller."
speak basic French Took it in High School, eh?
start learning a language when I reach my destination So, what expertise do you REALLY have?
What you have failed to mention is why.
This is really important when you go to work as an expat. The term in HK was "FILTH." Failed In London, Try Hong Kong. Most of the people that end up as long-term expats are middle-aged and have personal/marital problems. While they were "failures" in London, they excelled abroad (in part) because of these problems.
In HK, an expat would make 3-4x what a local Chinese person with the same training would earn. An employer would pay the person that with certain expectations:
Better managerial skills. Some cultures don't believe in deadlines, or admitting to problems... western businesses have a much easier time relating to westerners in this regard.
Better client-relationship skills. If the "money" is from other western businesses, the expat social network is useful.
No personal life, strong work ethic. You might be paid more, but you will be working a hell of a lot more hours... or expected to be considerably more productive.
Expert. Someone who has training that far exceeds local availability, and clients that are willing to pay more for it. Look at the Oil Industry as a prime example here.
on the other hand, if you are wanting to see different cultures, you are looking at it the wrong way. If you have qualifications that can earn you some money on the side, try doing something else as your mainstay, and save the computer stuff for building relationships and managing long-term plans.
I recommend scuba diving personally...
Forget the money; do it for the experience (Score:2)
You have your whole life to make money.
As long as you can earn enough to put a roof over your head and food on the table, go out and get that job. I mean, get the best deal you can, but don't sit around at home doing nothing (or doing something boring) because your year in Hong Kong isn't making you a millionaire.
Chances are that your time working overseas will teach you more about yourself, your world, and (perhaps surprisingly) where you come from) than anything else you'll ever do.
I've worked all over the world and there's nothing like the challenge and thrill of integrating yourself into an alien culture. You're never so alive as when everything around you is different, when everything you see demands your analysis and comprehension. It's amazing fulfilling, and anyone who denies it to themselves is crippling their future just as soon as if they'd chopped off their own leg.
Youre kidding right? (Score:1)
Any idea how many people from other countries try to come to USA for the work here? If theres a slump here there never was a boom there.
In short, land a contract from home ground, or get employed in a multinational and then transfer.
On a side note China, Taiwan, India and Korea are fresh markets that are slightly growing compared to most others now that are shrinking. They might have a use for you.
go where the english is bad (Score:1)
In other words, if you know how to search for things, read and comprehend, you can often make better decisions than a local who knows exactly what's going on around them.
Of course you need to learn how to gently relay that information to your colleagues who aren't keen on speaking/reading english but if you simplify it enough for them it usually works fine.
As a caveat, I did come over with my US company, but many of my friends just moved here and got a job.
Denmark sounds like a good start... (Score:3, Informative)
Having said that, the Netherlands are also extremely English friendly. I don't know so much about Switzerland and afaik Spain's IT industry is pretty backward compared to the other countries.
Myself I took the plunge 4 years ago and moved to Sweden to be with my gf. It was the best thing I have ever done in my life, but if I could go back and do it again I would have to say that the one thing I would change is that I would have tried to set up a job before I moved. Instead I spent 4 months out of work, concentrating on learning the language enough to get an entry level job. I went from a UK salary of 45k to a Swedish salary of around a third of that!
Getting back to a decent salary level has taken me quite a while. However, if I had lined up a job with an English speaking company (many multinationals use English as their corporate language), I would have been able to keep my salary level high. The cost would have been that it would have undoubtedly taken me longer to integrate, learn the language and so on.
If you're looking to experience the country and are less worried about learning the language at each place, stick to multinationals, arrange your jobs in advance and you should be ok. If you are looking for adventure and something that pretty much forces you to pick up some of the local language, then jump right in and move first. But be prepared to work with whatever you can find in order to pay the bills and get started!
Good luck! Sounds like you're gonna have a fun time ahead of you.
Start learning languages (Score:2)
You want to work overseas, but your not willing to show that you want to. No wonder nobody wants to hire you. Show some effort.
Your second language is the hardest to learn, and you don't even know it. Start brushing up on it. Ideally you would get others to help (SO, kids, roommates). You should have entire days where you don't speak a word of english, and yet you have normal conversations.
Now learn some hard ones. French is a fine language (the people that speak it is a different matter), but it is too close to english. Learn something different. Russian, Hebrew, and Korean. Note I said and there, learn them all. I picked those there (there are several others with similear properties), because they are both very unlike english, and unlike each other to a large extent. They also have a different alphabit. Whereever your dream job takes you, you will have expirence with learning similear languages, so you can pick it up faster.
I'm told that after about 10 langauges you can pick up new ones in a matter of a few days. You will impress the interviewer with your fast learning if you don't speak the language when the interview is scheduled, but you do the interview in his native language.
A safety net while you test the waters (Score:1)
Re:A safety net while you test the waters (Score:1)
Although the pay may not be as high as private sector, when you are assigned overseas the USG pays-
Your rent (huge houses except in european capitals)
Your utilities
Gives you a stipend for more expensive countries
Pays for you to return to the states every two/three years(home leave).
You also get the security of working for the USG and possibly a 20 year retirement(not sure about the IT slots).
If you're really feeling adventurous try one of the third world African countries. The people are great and you get to live like a king(maids, gardeners ect).
This link [state.gov] is for the foreign service IT jobs. Note that you want foreign service jobs not civil service (which are U.S. based.
Come to barcelona (Score:1)
In winter we have the Pirynees [tele-ski.com] and Andorra [andorra.com], 1 hour by car and you're skiing in pretty good mountains.
In the summer I go to the beach, in the city there is a decent one, and there are a lot of nice
villages [sitges.com] around with nice seaside.
In the city there is a lot of things to do, restaurants [barcelona-on-line.es] are excellent. Most of the movie theaters show the pictures in spanish, but there are some that don't translate the movies. Then you can go to dance till 4am or more if you want. There are many streets prepared for skating [patinar-bcn.com] and biking. I know some people who go to work by bike.
About the language it's important to know spanish, though I've worked with consultants who came for short projects who only spoke english and it was ok. It depends of the kind of work you do. Most of the people in the city only speak spanish, but some words in english.
Check this out on ZDNET (Score:1)