Advertising on a Free Wireless Network? 406
Mischievous0ne asks: "I had an idea yesterday, and I wanted to run it past the Slashdotcommunity. Would you use a honeypot (free wireless access point) that covered a large downtown area (3-4 blocks of restaurants, coffee bars, an iceskating rink, a small park, and general hangout) if you had to have a framed banner ad at the top of every page you visited while on the network? Do advertisers still pay for banner ads? Are banner ads, effective? I live in a college town in Indiana, and I know there are wireless users here, but the campus wireless network is severly limited. I'm also not sure how people would react to the banner ad space in exchange for free access."
If its free.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:If its free.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What utility software? (Score:3, Interesting)
1) do you remember alladvantage?
2) where are they now?
people don't give a shit about web banners... however there was one critical factor they forgot-
local ads.
people are way more receptive to hungry howies pizza down the street than than lowermybills.com
if you advertise local stuff, local companies would be willing to pay.
go outside the area tho and you'll shoot yourself in the foot.
don't force advertisements either. show people what they're willing to see.
Re:If its free.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:If its free.. (Score:3, Informative)
Can you imagine how much it cost to give support to users who didn't want to pay for internet access.
My favourite memory is taking a call from an irate customer who threatened to cancel his free account.
Sure... (Score:2, Funny)
it all depends on (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:it all depends on (Score:3, Interesting)
As wireless networks become more and more common, how long will it be before we have a lawsuit involving the content on those networks?
Can't you imagine some litigation happy jerk finding porn on a shared drive and suing for distributing the content?
"We must protect the children! My son say porn on my neighbor's hard drive over the wireless network!"
is this a joke? (Score:3, Insightful)
1. give something valuable out for free.
2. (nevermind technical, legal, and other liability issues)
3. (something involving banner ads.)
4. ???
5. profit!
Re:is this a joke? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:is this a joke? (Score:3, Informative)
Some companies thought it was "4. Spend IPO money and worthless inflated stock on acquiring other companies with loser business plans, and hope beyond all rational expectation that one of them will succeed and save our butts (and stock options)."
As one would expect, "5. go bankrupt" was the result.
You can't make money this way (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but
Re:You can't make money this way (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case they would automatically have a tremendously valuable demographic, which is "people in a certain area". Of course your advertisers wouldn't be Coca Cola (well...unless they had a coke machine near where you are...), but rather local restaurants, book stores, geek hangouts, coffee shops, retailers, computer stores, etc.
Re:You can't make money this way (Score:2)
Re:You can't make money this way (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok, how about a guarantee of location. I.e. "Hey, you're just 2 blocks from Bob's Coffee Shop. Mention this ad and get 10 cents off a mocha!"
Re:You can't make money this way (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:You can't make money this way (Score:2, Informative)
That depends a lot on the audience and the site where you are advertising. For general advertising over a dozen random sites that have nothing to do with what you are advertising, you might be right.
I run a technical website that serves a niche market. Companies selling their products to that niche market are still paying about $10 per 1000. Granted, I have fewer advertisers than 2 years ago, but from what they've told me that was due to a general cut in advertising budget during the recession, not due to a decision to abandon banner ads.
Most advertisers only like to buy from sites that have a lot of inventory. We're talking hundreds of thousands of impressions per month, generally
You are right in that advertisers aren't going to care about some site that gets 10k hits per month. My site does about 350,000 per month and commands the ad revenue mentioned above.
But actually I would say that there is now relatively more interest in smaller sites (less than a million hits per month) than larger sites since the smaller sites generally are more focused on a specific topic. The visitors to those sites are predisposed to be potentially interested in what the advertisers are offering. My website sells ad space directly, none of those "banner exchange" deals. And we've only run ads that were related to our subject matter. You won't see silly "hit the monkey" banner ads on my site.
Our most successful advertiser achieved a 1 out of 25 click-thru rate, which was pretty impressive. Others achieve much less. But everyone that advertises builds brand recognition. It might not lead to a click or a sale today, but that doesn't mean the advertising budget was poorly spent. It is doubtful that for every dollar Pepsi spends on advertising they generated a dollar of new income the next day. But over time it keeps "Pepsi" on everyone's mind.
Re:You can't make money this way (Score:2)
In this case, you wouldn't have demographics, but you would know every site that people using the network visit. This is arguably much more valuable to advertisers.
Re:is this a joke? (Score:5, Insightful)
4. ???
5. profit!
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what network television does, and they're rolling in the dough.
In fact, this is a great idea (if it weren't for the technical problems with it) because it solves the primary problem with internet advertisement: A lack of ability to target advertisements to a paricular group of consumers. In this case because it's a wireless network, you know that they are within a small geographical area, and hence it's a gold mine for stores and businesses in the area.
In any case, while we need to learn from history, history doesn't dictate with certainty: When the first airplane failed to get off the ground, they didn't give up and forget about it. History is full of examples where there are countless failures, followed by success.
This is Wrong (Score:2)
Re:is this a joke? (Score:2)
I was quite skeptical about the wireless ad idea until I read the statement quoted above. Keep in mind that some people already expressed a desire to be able to spam local ads to wireless PDA-type devices that're in the local area -- stuff along the lines of "Joe's Hotdog stand is right around the corner and offering a 2-for-1 special."
So tying these ads to a free wireless service would provide a legitimate reason for the ads (i.e. they're subsidizing the service that the user is using rather than just spamming a user over an existing service that the user pays for), and it provides ads that're much more relevant and useful compared to even local television ads. Overall, it looks like a win/win situation, if the idea can get over the other inherent problems with Internet-based ads.
Interesting Idea (Score:2)
I think this is a dangerous idea. I can name several companies that would enable this by default on all wireless connections if it were available. It would be a way to force users to help offset the cost of the wireless networks.
Re:Interesting Idea (Score:2)
Banners (Score:2)
If I want to avoid a banner, I can. If someone's going to pay to have the banner there, then that's their business. I can ignore them a lot easier than any of the other mentioned ad types.
remember netzero (Score:2, Insightful)
No free ISP's? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:remember netzero (Score:2, Interesting)
I dont think it would cost nearly as much to run a monthly wireless if you owned all the access points.
I didn't work before... (Score:2)
that's not a honeypot (Score:3, Informative)
how people would react (Score:2)
I know how I'd react: block those ads! Are you with me, everybody?
Nothing wrong with this (Score:2, Interesting)
On a side note, I think the reason advertising on the internet gets such a negative response is that they are designed badly. Why do banners animate? Banners should not animate. Nor should things pop up/under what you are working on. People are just fine with the ads in magazines and such because they aren't constantly dancing around and flashing things at you. It's distracting, and detracts greatly from the reading experience. I'm sure static banners would raise a minimum of fuss in the average user.
I mean, we're predators, and our eyes are automatically attracted to movement. That's why good UI design calls for animation only when you want the users attention for something important.
Aww crap, I just answered my own question. I hate people.
Honeypot?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Does the word "honeypot" now also mean a "free wireless access point?" Nobody tells me these things...
Yes, a honeypot is a trap. (Score:5, Informative)
What happened here is that the submitter read or heard something about a wireless honeypot being used to trap wardriving/walking etc. activity, and thought that the term just meant a free access point. He's confused.
Re:Honeypot?? (Score:2)
The term most wireless ISP's use is "hot spot", so I can see where the confusion probably stems from.
Re:Honeypot?? (Score:3, Informative)
In essence, it would be the opposite of alot of client-side proxys that intercept HTML and -remove- ads. I would expect the system to add text and graphics, possibly even Java aps to try and make sure you see them.
Not polite, but hey, it's their network. Not completely enfoceable (since someone will surely write a client-side proxy to remove the ads), but neither is any other form of advertising.
Unless you're in a tech saturated market I don't expect you'll see this for a long time. The guy standing on the corner with a sign is much more effective.
Depends on annoyanced level (Score:5, Insightful)
Otherwise I'd probably just ignore the banner.
If the adverts were too intrusive to ignore I'd stop using the service.
Locally relevant advertising, that's the thing.
yeah, go for it (Score:2)
Do Banners == Revenue? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Do Banners == Revenue? (Score:2)
Enough reveune to turn a profit? That's another question.
Re:Do Banners == Revenue? (Score:2)
Re:Do Banners == Revenue? (Score:2)
Excusing my utter lack of knowledge of the porn industry -- isn't that something that gets a lot of cash flow coming in from consumers? I don't think it's the kind of earning that is advertising based...but I don't know...
My point wasn't that you can't make money online, but that advertising isn't really going to support it...
Re:Do Banners == Revenue? (Score:2)
Since the fellow's sig said "Free porn. Period.", I assume that it's not referring to a site that gets its cash direct from consumers, no.
I would use it happily... (Score:2)
My two cents.
I'm all for it (Score:2)
Local ads? (Score:5, Insightful)
There would be a lot of work involved-such as proving the ads actually worked, but it would be fun to start such a small enterprise up. Try something like arranging to offer a coupon from a local store on the banner ad itself, and see how many people come in with your coupon to determine the retention and usefulness of the service. Then you could turn it around and use that information to sell more ads to local shopowners.
Calum
Size matters... (Score:2)
Then again, some advertizing could work because people will put up with some of it, even if they complain. I mean, how many people have actually stopped going to a website due to some small limited advertizing. Done in measures, the users will tolerate it. They may not like it, but they'll keep using the service because it's free, and you'll start having at least a small revenue source.
Idle speculation (Score:5, Informative)
2. You might get some love on local ads, from businesses that normally wouldn't use internet ads. Like a local sub shop or bookstore. Your one advantage will be genuine geotargeting. (Sorry, OSDN.)
3. Figure out some reasonable way to do traffic shaping first or some yahoo will put you out of business by sucking up all your bandwidth. I'm not an expert on this sort of thing but maybe withholding TCP ACKs from abusers as a throttle would help.
4. Let us know how it works out!
-Peter
Wireless infrastructure fund? (Score:2)
numbers and make it work out better.
To answer the question, run-of-the-mill banners do 10 cents per thousand impressions these days. Even factoring in a select audience (like Slashdot) or pop-under/overs (unlike Slashdot), a couple of dollars per thousand impressions is all you can make.
Do something more sophisticated (Score:2)
I'm assuming you'd do your banner method via a proxy server that inserts your add, why not do a commercial-like ad for each time interval. I'm thinking of something like what Salon.com does for non-subscribers. Intrusive for just a few seconds, and then its like nothing ever happened.
Are banner ads effective? (Score:3, Insightful)
"In the early days of online advertising in the mid-1990s, click through for banner ads might have been any where from 5 percent to 6 percent. But Denise Garcia, a media analyst for GarnterG2, a market research firm in Stamford, Conn., says that click through for banners have fallen to roughly two-tenths of a percent. "It's amazing that it's fallen so dramatically," says Garcia."
Say hello to Junkbuster (Score:3, Interesting)
Slow news day?
-B
A better idea... (Score:4, Interesting)
Step 2)
Step 3) Profit!
That's what some folks are doing in Mendocino, and it seems like it'd be a great service. I opened up my laptop in a friends house, and saw I was getting wifi access. I'd have paid them $10 for the weekend, easily.
Local banner ads (Score:2)
Put restrictions on their design (no flashing, no animation) and size, and I don't see why they couldn't be left on for all subscribers period.
Wireless Juno/NetZero Net Access? (Score:2)
Careful (Score:2)
"Each page," might make the advert look like its loaded from the web site etc., time based would be safer.
For the linkage adverse, it's about NYTimes and Wash Post etc. suing Gator over pop ups
50/50 (Score:2, Insightful)
Subscribe to get rid of the ads, and GPS use? (Score:4, Interesting)
Neat GPS tie-in: click on an ad for a nearby coffee shop, send them your GPS coordinates with your order (paid by credit card or PayPal), and they'll deliver for a fee based on your distance from the shop.
OK, maybe that's a bit too geeky...
Re:Subscribe to get rid of the ads, and GPS use? (Score:2)
Use bandwidth shaping to choke the cheapskates to 64Kbps (paid subscribers get more).
Have the option to send your picture along with your GPS coords to the coffee shop so they'll have a better chance of finding you.
See if any local radio stations want pay the hardware costs to webcast over IP Multicast, assuming a) you can get around the RIAA bull----, and b) IP Multicast will actually work for this situation. (I'm utterly unfamiliar with implementing multicast, I just think it's a good idea. There's got to be a way to retransmit 20Mbps HDTV datastreams on gigabit hardline networks.) Might work great for local talk/public/college radio.
The real use of banner ads (Score:2)
It worked on me for Weather Underground [wunderground.com], but they're cool and only $5/year, so I don't mind.
Re:Subscribe to get rid of the ads, and GPS use? (Score:2)
But what about the coffee shop coupons? I think you'd want to have a site that paid subscribers could visit to take advantage of the local-network deals.
Here's one last zinger- what if instead of internet access, you just got local network access? What if there were such networks everywhere, connecting to each other? How about a high-latency completlely rebuilt internet?
Major Bussiness plan doesnt seem to be the idea (Score:2, Insightful)
Dunno, just my
Dimes
Wouldn't Work (Score:3, Insightful)
Banner ads are slowly dying. Basing a long term business model on them is a bad idea.
Umm, netzero? (Score:2)
What I personally think (Score:2)
This is not being unnice or disregarding your idea, it is simply me being tired beyond belief of commercials as a way to do business. If you could come up with a better way to finance it I think that there can be a merit to general wireless access, but not with commercials.
Sure, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
- I would probably be spending most of my time over ssh, not the web
- I would filter out the banners
- Getting banner sponsors, is really, really hard
thoughts (Score:2)
Maximize Shareholder Value (Score:5, Funny)
Above all, you need to maximize synergies to develop a strategic go-forward plan to be first to market in the opportunity space. Focus on synthesizing a world-class, robust, scalable solution using best-of-breed technologies. You need to capture eyeballs if you're going to drive revenue generation; you need to get the public to drink the Kool-Aid.
Develop a leveraged business model and have a fully-realized exit strategy.
Re:Maximize Shareholder Value (Score:4, Funny)
Whoa there, don't get so far ahead of yourself that you move the goal posts out of the ballpark and lose sight of the big picture. There's a whole knowledge base of lessons learned out there to use for value-added synergy, so there's no need to risk getting left out of the loop by thinking too far outside the box.
The bottom line is this: for your core business, you'll need a results-driven, client-focused game plan if you want to take the fast track to a win-win situation. You must have it in your mindset to push the envelope and be proactive in the pursuit of a total quality 100% solution that goes the extra mile in customer satisfaction. However, even with a best practice center of excellence, you'll still have to play hardball at the end of the day if you want to keep up with the movers and shakers.
I think I'm getting a little off-track here, let's take this offline; I'll touch base with you later to pencil in a time when we can revisit this issue and put this one to bed.
Free community wireless projects (Score:2, Interesting)
Introducing a wireless network with advertising is going to go down the hole. Especially with these community wireless projects popping up in most major cities.
First things first.. (Score:2)
That upsets me more then anything. When I'm watching T.V., and I see a commercial... I don't drop what I'm doing and head out to the store!! Same goes for the internet. I'm here to read a story... I go there to do some research. If I see something that interests me, I'll then go to it.
Example: Thinkgeek. I know the web addy now... I've even bought a couple of things off of it. But have I EVER clicked through... NO.
Once advertizers and web providers remember that it's the idea seed that gets planted and not the click-through, maybe the internet business will return.
People should really be quantifying, "if I put up and ad, do my # of visits increase as a whole?"
Now that would be better data.
Hey.. how did this box get under me?
Hell yeah I'd use it... (Score:2)
Internet != WWW (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, as long as you don't mind that I use the access for checking my email, logging in to machines at work or home, apt-get updating my system, chatting/IM'ing with friends and colleagues, playing online games, and other activities that don't involve "visiting" any "pages". (And that's if I'm a nice guy, and don't use junkbuster or mozilla's image-blocking features.)
Misuse of terms (Score:5, Informative)
Normally, a honeypot is an apparently vunerable system or network that you deliberately leave around to catch the eye of hackers, usually to monitor them or to grab lists of IPs to block.
I'd use it (Score:2)
Repeat after me... (Score:3, Informative)
How do you propose to get this to work? You'd have to force port 80 connections to a proxy server, wouldn't you? Oy... some Internet access you got there.
Re:Repeat after me... (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh - he'd probably use NAT. Which, unless you need a world-visible IP address, is as good as genuine Internet access.
Re:Repeat after me... (Score:2)
Which would work great, but IMO feels wrong. "Hey! It's free! It's open! It's... proxied? WTF?"
I don't know, this idea just doesn't have the ping of greatness.
It also doesn't--can't--do anything with roving clients who are using something other than HTTP. Considering the geekiness of today's typical wireless user, I would be surprised if this weren't a majority or at least a large minority.
VPN or login auth system? (Score:2)
Have some sort of custom login client (Older cablemodem systems had such a client). Unless you're logged in and authed, you don't route.
Supporting multiple OSes will be a bitch tho.
Re:Repeat after me... (Score:2)
the Web is not the Internet. The Internet is not the Web. An IP client is not necessarily a web browser.
Who said anything about the Internet or IP? I'm thinking about setting one of these up, and it'll only offer proxied web and email. In fact, I'm still debating whether or not to even offer full web access for free. Probably won't even bother until some local businesses throw me some monetary support.
What kind of ad? (Score:2)
Slashdot ads are good. I frequently click on them. They're not deceptive, not intrusive, and they are targeted for the audience.
The ads everywhere else are "IF THIS IS FLASHING, YOU WIN!" or "HIT THE LAPTOP AND WIN" or "YOU HAVE 1 NEW MESSAGE". Please...don't insult my intelligence.
A Question (Score:2)
Does this sound to wrong or or illegal or anything like that?
Re:A Question (Score:2)
Free wireless Internet is not all web pages (Score:2)
But the real issue I see here is that Internet access is more than just webpages with banners. Do you intend to intercept people's e-mail to insert ads (something that's less likely to be well received)? Would you block usenet access? What about instant messaging and other application? You need to consider all aspects of network acceess, not just WWW access, in putting togeter a business plan in this area. And you walk a fine line, limit users too much and the system will not be well received, tamper too much with things like e-mail and again I think you'll have problems. Stick to just inserting WW banners and let all users on your netork and it might be overused by applicaions that never generate hits.
Local Internet..... (Score:2)
How about for a cetain metro area, designate the 192.168.*.* IP addresses, as a Local internet (or would that be intranet....I dunno!). Now 192.168.0.1 (or maybe DNSed as www.index.local (note the nonstandard TLD)), would point to a web page that is for the particular area you are in, and link to various shops and businesses in that area, that you might be interested in..... These shops and businesses would pay for the connection, and also the internet that could be accessed from the same location.
This system would meen I could drive somewhere I had never been before, and instantly look up where the local , for example , Pizza shop is.... Why would that Pizza shop want to advertise to the world, when only people in the local vacinity would be interested in ordering....
What about the reverse? (Score:2)
What if you instead sold demographic information to stores in the area? (This will get all the privacy people in an uproar, but remember, your giving away a free service, perhaps allow people to pay and you won't save their data) Basically you are going to get alot of people coming down to your part of town to surf the web. You'll know what sites they are going to, so then you can establish some information about their demographics. You could then tell the coffee shop that geeks like their shop, but housewives don't.
You could also probably make money charging the businesses a small fee. If you make your network small enough people are going to come to that area to use the network. And while they're there they might as well buy a hot dog right! So it is worth it for the hot dog vendor to pay you a little bit of that. You would have to do some advertising then, and find a way to block the network at locations that don't pay.
Good luck.
How do you put a banner ad... (Score:2)
I'd use your service, but I'd never see your banner ad.
make users pay for the ads (Score:2)
Web? (Score:2)
You can also expect another type of backlash. Back when Microsoft was floating the "SmartTags" idea, people (even EFF!?!) were bitching about it even though it ultimately just involved a user agent displaying web pages differently than how most w3b d3$ignerz expect. If you're going to be a middleman who changes how other people's web pages look to other people who view them, there will be a firestorm of flames and copyright-related lawsuits.
Yep, you'll have MPAA and EFF fighting each other just for a place in line to kick you in the nuts, as a reward for your good intentions.
Depends (Score:2)
A Successful Banner Use? (Score:2)
This is actually an intreaguing possibility. You could simply have a small add at the top of each page and append content to it by editing the HTTP stream going to each user.
The really interesting bit is that if used properly it could provide useful information to users while generating business for local retailers. For example, if I'm surfing in a town square and I happen to notice an add for a band playing at the bar across the street tomorrow, I really might be likely to click on the add and even go to the show. I'd certainly be a lot more likely to clik on that than I am to click on the SourceForge add I'm looking at right now. (We use a different team development tool.)
Adds work (and can even be usefull) when they're targeted at people who care. This provides an excellent opportunity to offer extremely local, grass-roots information. Doing something like this might even be useful for small towns...put up a few WAPs and have the adds point to community events...
Banners as a model? (Score:2)
WELCOME TO FIVE YEARS AGO.
Re:Opera? (Score:2)
Do you typically "make the love" or just "get it on?" Sorry. Had to. :)
Re:Opera? (Score:2, Funny)
Here in Norway, we don't have an opera yet. They are about to build one. But there are no plans for banner advertisment in it. They will probably put up some banners outside it, though. I don't think operas around the world has banners..
Sorry, I too had to (-8
Re:honeypot? (Score:3, Funny)
No. honeypot != free wireless access point
Nah, this'd be great. Setup a honeypot server that offers free wireless web access. Then when someone tries to hack you and you go after them, you're guaranteed to find them within a 3 block radius.
-a
Re:mmmm, free stuff (Score:2)
BAM! BONG! BOOM! click. Twirp. 98.5FM! The Worm!
A song begins, then I turn the dial because the song typically sucks. Repeat until I can take no more and switch the radio off.
The RIAA has been moaning about P2P and Internet radio killing their profits. I postulate that advertising has had a lot to do with this. The time most folks listen to the radio is during the drive to and from work, and you're fucking lucky to get one or two songs an hour between ads. Why bother?
Advertising is so ubiquitous that I don't even notice it, especially when its up in my grill.
Re:mmmm, free stuff (Score:2)
Re:Two things (Score:2)
I would think here, of all places, people would know that.
Look it up.
If people on slashdot can't keep terms straight, how can we expect people in congress to?
Re:Free Internet access works so well... (Score:2, Interesting)
Reece,
PS. If you do,, you might try having a weather forecast, etc. for your town show up every say 10 minutes, so people would realize that your add bar is usefull to them also,, just a thought,
So if I'm using it only for SMTP/IMAP traffic... (Score:2)
The point was valid even if the example (of ssh) wasn't perfect.
Re:Most people will not click ads on the go (Score:2)
The ad says "Eat at Joe's, right across Main from the park". What the hell is there to "click" on?