Careers After Tech? 231
theinfobox asks: "Is anyone else burned out on tech jobs? Or, has anyone tired of the never ending hunt for tech position? I know a lot of people who have and they are now looking at other career fields. I am almost at that point myself. What career fields are you considering after leaving the tech industry?"
Law School (Score:2, Funny)
my experience... good then (hopefully) bad (Score:3, Interesting)
My advice: stay away from retail at all costs. Try something secretarial, in hospitality, or even manual labor. Anything is better than being told all day why your reservations about hard-selling extended warranties are invalid, and that if a product is carried by the company, there can't ever be anything wrong with it, etc. Keep your dignity at all costs.
Oh, and find a job with consistent shifts, if it's hourly. Nothing sucks more than noon one day, 8am the next, 3pm the next. Especially when instead of giving you the schedule the Wednesday before, like you were promised, they decide that Sunday morning is a better time.
I'm optimistic, personally... 23:00-07:00 5 nights a week, with a 2-day break, and no micromanaging bosses.
Good Riddance... (Score:5, Insightful)
The dotcom "boom" saw a lot of weenies with MCSE's and dipshit "IT guys" like the one in the new apple switch advert "I used to hate macs, now I are one", vinnie pipsqueek.
If you're considering going elsewhere because of the tech slump, I say, good riddance. Too many idiots who didn't understand technology got jobs in the boom anyway. Companies were so desperate for warm bodies that they lowered the bar for hiring to such a level that it was pathetic.
IF you aren't a real engineer-- and by real engineer, I mean someone who learns new technologies in their spare time, someone who wouldn't be cought dead without a computer at home-- then you won't considering leaving.
I worked with a guy once who didn't even have a home computer. He called himself a programmer. Yeah, sure, and I'm a lawyer. He was proud of the fact that he didn't have a computer.
And given the postings of many of the people on slashdot, I think there are a lot of such posers here. (If you think a x86 gets as mauch work done in a clock cycle as a powerpc, you qualify as "not a technical person")
Go back to working retail and leave the entry level jobs for real engineers who simply lack experience (like college students etc.)
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:5, Insightful)
In my rant, I misspoke.
Basically, Real Engineers are sticking around for the long haul. We were here before the boom and we will be here afterwards. And those of use who are too young to have been here before the boom are seeing the bust as an opportunity to fine tune our skills and are NOT considering doing anything else.
People "burned out by tech jobs" are people who got into "tech jobs" because it was hot. Because it was the thing. Because companies were so desperate they didn't care, and were often run by unqualified people doing the hiring. One could argue that part of the reason so many of these companies failed is they had incompetent engineering staff (and incompetent management and marketing staff) and provided crappy, and thus, non-profitable services to people.
To all those people who jumped on the tech bandwagon and are not engineers / hackers / competant. (EG: if your title or qualification is "MCSE" or "Web Designer" or you never built a computer or operating system in high school (or something even more geeky like my roomates railgun)) then I say good riddance.
What were you doing sticking around trying to get our jobs anyway? The boom is bust, the party is over, the bandwagon got overloaded and there's no room for you.
If you don't have enough conviction that you're actually considering doing "something non-technical" I say, good riddance.
Those who worked hard and have the financial freedom to go live on a desert island-- YOU have earned the right to be "burned out" on technology and I wish you well.
But the party is definitely over, and if there's any question in your mind, then you do NOT belong in a tech job.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure. Its hard to generalize without also catching people you don't intend to in the net.
People who sincerely wanted to be tech workers (and I know some myself) but who are having trouble becoming engineers (and I use that word broadly) I got no beef with. Even if they try for awhile and then give up.
But there are a LOT of people who jumped into the arena with dollar signs in their eyes and wanted to jump on the band wagon *without being technical*.
I got no beef with anyone who's still learning, or is just inexperienced if they are sincere. Its the insincere money chasers to whom I say "Good riddance".
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2, Informative)
Why do you throw around the word engineer so much? You are using that term out of context. Are you saying that a highly skilled tech person automatically becomes an engineer? I know of many people who will disagree with you.
Last I checked, to be an "Engineer", you need to be accredited as such from a recognized institution. By recognized I of course mean a respected university, not a technical certification.
In addition (Score:2)
And you have to have apprenticed for a period of several years under another licensed engineer.
Programmers are not engineers.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Now that is misusing the world.
Quoth Dictionary.com:
engineer n.
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
2. One who operates an engine.
3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
Nothing says there that one has to join your little club or guild to call themselves an engineer.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Why would I want a mechanical engineering job? I'm a programmer.
I don't put the word engineer on my resume-- my resume is full of accomplishments, kudos and experience. It doesn't have any lables except for the job titles I've had.
Course I could change "Director of Research and Development" to "Chief Engineer" and then I'd have the word engineer on my resume, but I don't see the point.
I am not trivializing the education people get when they get it. I'm merely pointing out that many colleges do a poor job of educating.. and that there is nothing that says that engineers who learned their job in the trade are not real engineers.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes people can change their minds and move on to something else, but what BitGeek is trying to say is that the real "techies" spend too much time (investing in their future) learning about technology and new things, that moving on is NOT an option.
My wife doesn't understand why I come home from work and immediately jump on a computer and then spend another couple of hours (outside of work) on it.
Its a full time job - outside of your full time job - to stay proficient in this industry.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:5, Insightful)
My wife doesn't understand why I come home from work and immediately jump on a computer and then spend another couple of hours (outside of work) on it.
And you know what, my wife asks the same thing. I gave the same excuses. Now (with 3 kids) I see her point. What the fuck good is keeping that honed, that general a knowledge at the risk of losing your family, friends and life?
I spent a good portion of my youth and young adult years learning this shit inside and out, backward, frontward and sideways. There's things I haven't touched on in ages but give me an hour and I'll be in the 95th percentile on proficiency. When it comes to computing, electronics and software things just do not change that much. You got 'em down once, you'll get them down much more quickly the second time. There's no need to spend 10 hours at work and another 5 or 6 at home on it.
personally I've got it down to about 8 at work and 2 or 3 at home, and planning on getting it down further yet.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
It isn't gaining proficiency as much as doing what one enjoys.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
You state you spend 2-3 (and are working on lowering it.)
All MJ stated was that many people ("Real Engineers" as far as bitgeek's concerned) have a vested interest in their industry. They just jump on the dotcom bandwagon just for the ride, they're in it because its:
1. What they like to do and are interested in.
2. What they chose as their career.
3. What they were doing before the dotcom boom even occurred.
They're more likely to be around right through the ups and downs of the industry, and won't be jumping ship like a rat.
MJ just happened to mention that his wife has a tough time with the concept of getting back on the computer when he just spent a workday on it.
My wife wonders the same thing, sometimes, but she does the same thing in her industry, and she understands.
It's amazing that you make a (somewhat) personal affront about losing family and friends due to time spent in front of a computer, while going on to state you _still_ do the same thing, come on, get a fucking life. I'm still not sure how your troll of a post managed a 5-insightful.
While you're right, it's not worth it to be glued to your computer for hours on end when you've got family to attend to, a couple hours after work isn't hurting anyone (did Magnetar even state that he was having problems because of it? Nope.)
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
It's amazing that you make a (somewhat) personal affront about losing family and friends due to time spent in front of a computer, while going on to state you _still_ do the same thing, come on, get a fucking life. I'm still not sure how your troll of a post managed a 5-insightful.
Perhaps because I wasn't tripping over myself, trying to prove how fuckwitted the guy I was responding to was? I mean seriously did you read my post before tagging me a foe and replying?
I said nothing about losing family/friends due to spending time in front of the computer -- I said that spending most of your waking hours honing your career doesn't do a whole fuck of a lot of good for your social life. To some, that doesn't mean shit and that's fine -- it doesn't make my point any less correct.
While you're right, it's not worth it to be glued to your computer for hours on end when you've got family to attend to, a couple hours after work isn't hurting anyone (did Magnetar even state that he was having problems because of it? Nope.)
No, but he did state "Its a full time job - outside of your full time job - to stay proficient in this industry." -- sounds like it's more than a "couple hours after work" to me.
The whole gist of my reply to him was to refute that a) it's a full time job to keep up on the tech and that b) the original poster WAS being too harsh.
I didn't claim that spending a couple hours on the computer after work would ruin your life. Don't put words in my mouth.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Why is it people seem to think you have to choose between "Family" and "Career"? And often they are pooh-poohing achievement because it means you "neglected your family". WTF? Where does that come from?
We have no problem working non-stop 3 or 4 months, until a project is finished. When it is, we take off out of town for a weekend, or go out on the boat. My partner is happy, and I don't buy this argument that by working I'm neglecting my family-- they certainly are working as well.
I think there's a general agenda that downplays achievement. As if non-achievement is superior-- yes, its better to be a slacker. Cause this idea that you can't be successful AND spend quality time with your family is just bullshit.
You know, sometimes "The good things in life" really are ENGINEERING ACHIEVEMENTS. Not going out and communing with nature, though I do that as well.
Any friend who leaves you because you work to much is not a friend.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Why is it people seem to think you have to choose between "Family" and "Career"? And often they are pooh-poohing achievement because it means you "neglected your family". WTF? Where does that come from?
<blink> I stated any of those things? Are you reading the same comment that I wrote?
We have no problem working non-stop 3 or 4 months, until a project is finished. When it is, we take off out of town for a weekend, or go out on the boat. My partner is happy, and I don't buy this argument that by working I'm neglecting my family-- they certainly are working as well.
Well Bully for you. You've found something that works. I don't recall saying anything to that effect was impossible.
Cause this idea that you can't be successful AND spend quality time with your family is just bullshit.
Being successful does not mean spending 2/3 of your day in your career. Personally I plan on working under 30 hours a week and being successful. It takes some upfront work though, and I've got most of that done.
You know, sometimes "The good things in life" really are ENGINEERING ACHIEVEMENTS.
Amen -- I agree with you. But not all good things in life (which admittedly you are not stating).
Any friend who leaves you because you work to much is not a friend.
By the same token, any friend who works too much can't be much of a friend. I mean realistically where is the time to be friends?
Same question (Score:2)
Re:Same question (Score:2)
It's "spending a couple hours after work."
NOT "only having a couple hours left in my day."
What are you, 15 or something? (Score:2)
7-8: get ready for work/ drive to work
8-5: work
5-7: drive home/ eat
7-9: "hang out with the family for a couple of hours"
9-2: "get back on the computer"
"I usually only get 5 hours sleep a night"
Re:What are you, 15 or something? (Score:2)
Re:Same question (Score:2)
Thats even worse. You're taking one example and claiming its true for the whole world.
Brilliant.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
See, if you really were a programmer, you wouldn't think of it as a job-- it would be your hobby as well. By programmer, I mean a programmer by spirit, by trade, by genes. I don't mean someone who calculated a lucurative career doing something they can do so-so but it will always just be a "job" to them.
Sure there are times you don't want ot be near a computer... true for everyone. But to pooh-pooh people who spend their off hours programming (for the fun of it) and to say there is more to life-- as if they were missing out on it-- tells me you're not a programmer.
Wow, you're an ass (Re:Good Riddance...) (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't know if I'll get applauded or flamed for this but oh well.
I have no doubt that your are a bigger "techie" than me. I have never hand built a computer, I didn't learn to code anything in grade school and I've never had anything to do with a railgun. I do however enjoy the things that computers help me accomplish. That's why I'm a graphic designer (and html programmer -a not always easy job that is not very respected around here). I moved into tech because the idea of interactive and functional design appealed to me a lot more than static pretty pictures in a magazine or on the side of a box.
But you know what? This industry drove the joy of design out of me. I'm sick of the mess that every project becomes. I'm sick of rushing through everything to get it out the door. I'm sick of political in-fighting between departments.
I'm hoping that this 'tech" guy can leave the industry behind and let me start enjoying design work that I do for my own fulfillment. In my opinion, the tech industry takes a lot more out of you than it gives back.
Whoever said that you should turn your hobby into a career should be shot. All that does is turn your hobby into work and all that entails (manager, deadlines, 8 hours a day of your "hobby"). I'd prefer my hobbies to stay enjoyable.
As for what I'm turning to, teaching. I'm going back to school for my teaching certificate so I can teach graphic design and adobe apps to high school kids. Maybe a little down tha line, a law degree or my own (non-design) business.
-matt
Re:Wow, you're an ass (Re:Good Riddance...) (Score:4, Insightful)
It's certainly not about knowing more than you. There are people who know more than me. People I went to high school with who now have doctorates from MIT and design systems far above my ability.
I suspect you're going to be in for a rude awakening when you start teaching and you find it is more of a joyless grind than tech jobs. Teaching is fraught with politics, and by definition, is an environment suffering from an unresponsive, oppressive, CYA style bureaucracy which insures that all the money stays at the top in overhead and none of the joy gets down to the teachers. (which is the case for all taxpayer , rather than customer, funded organizations.) There's no incentive in it- lots of people don't have more valuable (as in economically) skills than to teach and so there are lots of teachers to grind thru.
Its like nursing. A very important job but they waste nurses- they use them up and throw them away.
The tech industry is not going away. It is not dying or shrinking. What we've seen is a slowdown in GROWTH. It will continue to grow and it will grow faster in the future. You're a creative person, learn java. Its the nature of reality that some ways of expressing yourself are more profitable than others. Painting is profitable for very few, java is profitable for far more, and the gap will get wider, not smaller.
Deadlines and 8 hour days are the nature of business. Politics is the nature of people. You're going to find those anywhere that people actually expect you to be productive for some business purpose (including teaching.)
You may be one of the people I was ranting about if you got into the tech industry because you thought you'd get easy money for your hobby. But I got no beef with you if you recognize the economic realities and learn the skills necessary to be viable, whatever those are for you. They may merely be how to cope with a deadline driven environment and 8 hour days, while still providing high quality results.
Or how to find companies that will provide an environment that allows that.
With any job you're going to get out of it something akin to what you put into it. Its not the industry that takes more out of you than it gives... it could be poor choice of companies, or non-investment in yourself that caused that.
Re:Wow, you're an ass (Re:Good Riddance...) (Score:2)
Whoever said that you should turn your hobby into a career should be shot. All that does is turn your hobby into work and all that entails (manager, deadlines, 8 hours a day of your "hobby"). I'd prefer my hobbies to stay enjoyable.
+5 Insightful
*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* Amen, brother. I wished I have learned that 8 years ago.
Teacher? Good choice (Re:Good Riddance...) (Score:2)
And the thing is, they're good at it. In college we had a prof who used to be a programmer for one of the local large corps. He turned out to be one of the best teachers in the program.
While I won't say that all IT people have an ability to teach, it can also be said that a lot of them are better than somebody who dabbler who also has a teaching degree. We had some of these guys too, and they SUCKED. There's nothing worse than having some weiner with a B. English who just learned how to code last year trying to teach a class of people who have a geniune interest in learning IT.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not me! I have been in the business since 1975, and I have been "burned out" several times since. I have not left the field, but I have left a number of bad companies behind me.
Unless you are a real technophobe, I fail to see how the tech in itself would make you burn out. Much more likely people burn out because of stress, unreasobale expectations, and bad management.
Stress and bad management may be unusually common among tech jobs, but they certainly exist in all walks of life.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:5, Insightful)
People "burned out by tech jobs" are people who got into "tech jobs" because it was hot.
You must be a bazillionaire, you can read people's minds so well.
I've been in tech for probably 10-12 years now. Hardware, Software, Firmware... design, research, you name it. I'm considering leaving the tech industry. Why? I want some more people contact, frankly.
It didn't make itself known back then. Hacking away for all hours, tweaking this and that, learning the ins and outs of anything I could get my hands on... that's all I wanted. Now that I've had a taste for sales support (i.e. field applications engineering) I'm thinking that that is where my future lies. Going places, talking to people, solving problems, applying my knowledge -- not sticking around in a room and designing widgets, living like some lab rat and never seeing what impact what I make has on the world around me. I've been there and done that, and I want some more interaction. Maybe I'll keep my hardcore tech lust for my own projects now, which may make it fun again.
So because I want to do this, leave the hardcore tech industry, I am suddenly incompetent? Only there because it was cool at the time? Leaving because the party's over? I think you've overinflated your cranial cavity. Not everything happens the way you expect it to, and not everything happens because of how you claim it to.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Obviously, you are not who I was talking about. You enjoy engineering, and you don't seem to want to leave the industry to boot.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
I don't see how being a sales support person or engineering support person is leaving the tech industry.
Perhaps it's a perception -- I've always been into hardcore engineering -- systems design, reverse engineering, research. Moving towards FAE is kind of a big jump in that context. :-)
whoa (Score:3, Funny)
What were you doing sticking around trying to get our jobs anyway?
Sounds like a Teamster pissed at the non-union competition. Who made you the one to say whose jobs they are? If someone wants to work in tech, great, let 'em. If you're more qualified, you'll get the job instead, right? In the words of the late Clara Peller, where's the beef?
Re:whoa (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh, my beef isn't that I didn't get jobs-- I got great jobs.
My beef is that there were a lot of inexperienced, yet dedicated, engineers who didn't get jobs because more experienced b-rate people took them becuase the sector was "hot".
As to unions, they're just another name for the mob.
IF you have the skills get the job. But if you went chasing easy money, you don't get sympathy from me.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
I'm not talking about engineers without side interests-- what engineer doesn't? My current one is sailing. In the past I've had other outside interests.
But I've spent my life learning and that doesn't mean I spent it in school.
The multi-talented uber-geeks that you are talking about were always, and will always be geeks-- even if they open a motorcycle shop in their early retirement, they will write their own customer tracking system, etc.
What I'm talking about is the wannabes who don't really have an interest or desire to learn technology. The non-technical tech workers, who for a long time blocked the avenues for actual true geeks to get jobs. (And I'm not bitter because I was one of those blocked-- I Was well employed and well compensated.)
I saw a lot of companies- hell WORKED for some of them-- hire foolishly. Soemtimes buying someone with a degree but no engineering skill and passing over an excellent hacker (who comments their code) because they spent the four years after high school BUILDING THINGS rather than in a classroom learning 1980s era "Technology".
Yeah, I'm harsh on colleges as well- their agenda does not seem to be about bringing out the engineer and making them an excellent one. They are about McSkills and a piece of paper that gives a false sense of legitimacy. (OH, and making money-- not that there's anything wrong with that-- they just don't do it by providing great service to their customers.)
ANYONE can be successful at pretty much anything they put their minds to- especially when it comes to engineering, a category that doesn't require you to be fully able bodied and that you can teach yourself without spending much money at all.
The guy you linked to was a geek from the day he was born. He's not the group I'm talking about.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2, Funny)
I am sick of people not bathing, brushing their teeth. I am sick of them farting all of the time. Hell one time a co-worker almost puked on me( I had to jump out of the way ) we had just gone out for indian food and I thought it might have been to spicy for him. I asked "are you o.k.?" he says it was a buffet I just ate to much.
I worked with a guy who rubbed boogers all over his cube. I worked with
Hell I am a geek, but I am having a hard time dealing with the other geeks.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Interestingly enough the behaviour you describe seems to be manifested in low skill dos and windows programmers, not in engineers or people with high engineering skill.
In my epxerience, people who knew high level languages might periodically suffer from one issue or another, but never suffer from a lot of them.
Low level windows "programmers"- say someone who only knows visual basic-- seem to fit the description you gave.
Certainly not what I've seen at "every company". I think you need to find a better class of company.
AS to tax dodging, I say more power too them. I do everything legal I can to dodge taxes-- after all %90 of the money is wasted.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2, Interesting)
I thrive on tech. I love it. I always told my friends that were making half as much as me in other jobs that I was just lucky that what I love happened to pay very well.
I will never let tech out of my life. But I am tired of the current environment. I currently have a job which would be great if not for the jerks in management. Before they were bad, but know they think they can demand anything because us techies have no where to go. This is of course in Silicon Valley which has been really hit hard by the dot com bust.
And they are right... I would love to quit and find another job, but the market sucks. Everyone wants the exact requirements of the job to be matched by your resume. I am at the point in my career where I can pick up any piece of software/hardware or whatever and be proficient with it in a couple of days. And of course... Now everyone wants you to have a degree. They don't care that I have been programming and building computers/networks since I was 7 years old(back in 1978).
I thought I could enhance my resume by picking up certifications or completing my degree on line, but that sucks when you work 60-85 hours in a week and then have a family. I was learning at work, but now they seem to find more crap jobs. (Like clean up the IT storage room).
So am I ready to leave tech... NO. But do I feel I might have to... YES. I think of it this way... it will be like a sabbatical. I will get out of the industry during this crap, but still get paid enough to at least put a roof over my kid's head and food on the table.
The problem is I don't know what else to do besides tech. It is all I have ever done and the only thing I really like. I am hoping to come up with another career that I could possible involve computers in. I also thought about trying the consulting business, but that is probably a worse situation than what I am in.
So I go back to my original question... What other careers might be suited to an ex-techie? Any ideas?
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Your problem is that you can't find a decent company to work for. You're spending too much time with blown dry idiots (by definition anyone who ignores 30 years of engineering because you don't have 4 years of college is a baffoon.)
I think the solution to this is to form a company. You live in the vally- last time I was there you coldn't cough without running into 4 guys who wanted to start a business. NOW IS THE TIME. Resources are cheap, and hopefully you've learned from the mistakes of the dotcoms.
It doesn't sound like you really want to stop being an engineer. It sounds like you really just don't like your job and are having trouble finding a good one.
I can understand that. Personally, I will stay unemployed or turn down jobs with companies that don't meet my expectations-- even in this environment. Life is too short to work for a someplace like amazon.com.
But it also sounds like working for tech companies, rather than the tech industry is the issue. Maybe working for an insurance company or a major auto parts dealership would be a better environment for you-- all these industries need programmers.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
That's BS. A lot of good programmers I know don't have computers at home, intentionally. It's a matter of getting balance in your life. Mine serves only as a centralized Vorbis repository and music visualization center. I write TCP servers and search indexing programs for a living and sit in front of a computer more than 8 hours a day. I'm more than happy to _not_ do the same at home. Once in a great while I get an off week at work where I'm stuck in pure maintenance hell or other non-learning positions and I'll dust off the keyboard at home and write some code, but for the most part I'm pretty happy to leave that to work and limit my home involvement to the odd tech book and the whiteboard.
Overrated: How abusive moderators avoid getting caught in metamoderation.
No, it's how moderators work around the fact that there's no "Incorrect" or "Misinformative" category.
Sumner
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Apparently you have a computer at home.
No, this isn't BS. Its a stone cold truism. And person calling themselves a programmer who has been employed for more than 3 months who does not have a computer at home, should not be hired.
They are in it for the money and their code will likely suck. When there are lots of great programmers out there, why hire a poser who is looking for easy cash?
I never said you had to use your computer all the time at home. Nothing about having a computer throws your life out of balance. But someone who calls themselves a programmer and NEVER FINDS A NEED TO USE A COMPUTER AT HOME. No, they are not a programmer. Dusty- fine. Rather old computer- fine. USed for games- Fine. Spend your weekends sailing- fine, I do too. But to not have ever bought one, or to think that by not having a computer you're somehow adding balance to your life? Bullshit.
And any programmer who admits it is someone without at least the judgment to know that he's telling everyone he doesn't really like to program and isn't going to have any interest in it when he isn't getting paid. He's telling everyone that not only is he just after easy money, but that he's probably doing a poor job of it as well.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to be assuming that the only reason one would have for not having a computer at home is that they don't like computers, or doesn't like to program. This is incorrect.
I don't have a computer at home, nor a TV for that matter. The problem isn't that I dislike these things, it's actually quite the opposite. I find when I have access to a computer, all I will do is sit in front of the computer. Taking the larger view of my life, I don't want to sit in front of a computer all the time. A convenient way to do this is to not bother buying a computer for my home.
My not having a computer at home may not add balance to my life, per se, but it sure does make it easier for me to live a balanced life. It makes it harder for me to loose track of time and blow a whole evening. It makes it easier for me to do a wider variety of the stuff I'd like to do, instead of doing a whole lot of just one thing.
You seem to be claiming that no one who really likes technology or computers could possibly burn out on them. Consider that perhaps some people are burning out not because of the actual tech, but because of the blowhards like yourself that infest the field.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Oh, that's great. I'm causing your burnout.
Whatever.
The point is, people who don't learn technology in their spare time-- especially those who are proud of the fact that they don't-- are often correlated with those who jumped onto the tech bandwagon because the money seemed easy, and of course now that the money is hard, they are looking for a way out.
Lighten up (Score:2)
Of course, you don't see *me* calling *you* a poser.
Lighten up. Even Linus goes on beer hikes.
Re:Lighten up (Score:2)
Sure it *can*.
Who said anything about not going on beer hikes?
Hell, I was volksmarching in the late 70s and drinking beer afterwards. Nothing like german forests-- they seem to be unique in my experience.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's see if I qualify to your exclusive group. I started programming when I was 5 years old, on a Sinclair ZX-81. I played Moria (rogue) when I was in grade 8. I've been running Unix machines (SunOS, Linux, FreeBSD, Irix, and lately MacOS X) for ten years. I have perl modules available on CPAN. I have a degree in Physics & Math. I've written numerical simulations of stars in Fortran, and some of my software packages are still used in daily monitoring and operations in a particle accelerator facility. Am I a technical person? I'd say so.
I am trying to leave tech. I am sick of the industry as a whole. I worked as a unix and network administrator, and later in information security and in other various related roles. I am seriously considering several other careers right now, including agriculture (!) and entrepreneurial ventures (NOT software! NOT tech!).
I'll probably always come home at night and read slashdot and kuro5hin. I'll always have my own FreeBSD fileserver for my MacOS X network. I keep up to date, and I love the tech. I'm sick of the technical community. Maybe it's the desperation of the post-dot-com-crash world, maybe not. But I think the business world as a whole is (obviously) cut-throat, and the tech world is an accelerated and concentrated version of that.
No thanks. I'd rather live a longer, healthier, more relaxed life with my family. I can come home and night and -relax- with the newest technology, instead of having my life sucked out daily by the grind of this hyper-accelerated world.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
See, it's in my blood.
Computers, in their logic, and order, are comforting. Working with them is a natural fit for anyone who thinks logically, mathematically. it may be a pain to express simple concepts that way, but if you have the knack, you can make these machines do wonderful things.
In my experience, there are two kinds of tech people: (a) those like me, who reach the 90-95% proficiency level in almost anything technical they try within a few hours, and (b) those posers, who were in it for the "easy money". What comes naturally to the former group is hell to understand for the latter, and must make their working days miserable. I could never understand how someone could do something for a living that they didn't enjoy at some level. Money is a strong incentive, I suppose, but even though good hookers get paid well, most women don't prostitute themselves. So, I still don't get it.
In the "boom" years, the posers were a real problem for me. See, they tended to outnumber the die hard techs, and if a manager chose a course of action based on vote, a group ripe with posers would invariably come up with a design decision that was simple, obvious, and easy to implement. In other words, wrong. In the end, the true geeks would have to silently clean up the mess without complaint, being team players and all. It may seam harsh, but I will not miss the posers when they are gone.
The flip side is something anyone having to deal with HR departments, clueless about the positions they were trying to staff, would suffer: keyword mania. A FreeBSD guru with plenty of kernel experience with several other operating systems as well? Forget about a job writing Linux device drivers. Know Redhat Linux 6.2 but not 7.2? You're out of date.
You know, I'm an embedded, C, C++ kind of guy. I eat Alexandrescou's "Modern C++ Design" right up. Device drivers are yummy. I don't really do Java, or configure Apache, or worry about servlets within Allaire's JRUN or Tomcat. So, I don't make those things real prominent on my resume -- if I were to pick up a bit of Java today, I'd need a syntax reference, and JRE manuals. Swing documentation would probably be handy.
Still, when the shit hits the fan, you do what ever it takes to clean the crap up. I vividly remembered the time we subcontracted out some Java servlet work. Not a lot, about 8k lines, but it seamed to take 6 people three months to crank it out. It worked... until we had multiple sessions going. Most servlet engines multithread the server objects and, guess what, the "expert Java subcontracters" were oblivious to the notion of the "synchronized" keyword. A couple of nights with the right docs, and I banged it into shape fairly well. That's what tech's do: make things work. The moral is that a general understanding of multithreading and a bit of tutorial information at one's side beats a subject-matter poser-expert any day. But, they still wanna see 5+ years Java, JDBC, ODBC, SQL. Sigh. (I ported JRUN-hosted servlets to Tomcat, with a Sybase backend, for the heck of it, does that count for something, huh, huh?)
Yeah, I can crank out HTML and XML, and use CSS, when the need arises. I don't make a big deal out of it -- it's the UI flavour of the month: I remember using Motif-based GUI generators 6 years ago. But, I can't see the need to put that on a resume (one year's experience would be fair, I guess), any more than the fact that I can fill in a government form that I never saw before. In the same way that I can read, I can code.
What ever happened to hiring computer experts? You know, guys and gals that think. Out of the box thinking is necessary to get you out of some nasty design jams or third party code integration nightmares. Anaconda written mostly in Python? Well, time to learn Python. See ya tomorrow, with a first-cut patch. Perl the big thing for simple CGI scripts? Cool, it does regular expressions nicely -- we'll use that. When the hole is square, sometimes it's worth hunting for the square peg instead of trying to use the round one.
The bottom line, I guess, is that some people do a few things really well by rote, but that's all they can do. Kinda like the way I can cook a few different meals, but I'm not a chef by any means. Others' greatest skill is figuring out what they have to figure out to figure out how to get the job done. Poor English on my part? Maybe, but a bit of tail recursion never hurt anyone. Except maybe a tech-poser.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:4, Insightful)
There is, though the usage has become diluted and perverted some...
Hacker
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Jesus, man. Don't let it all hang out there and then act like an asshole. The way you talk to people, you will be lucky to not have someone beat you with a baseball bat at the slashdot meetup. Not because you are gay and use macs, but because you are an asshole.
Don't place your ego so close to your position that when your position goes, your ego goes with it.
Be nice on slashdot or don't participate. You have never written a post that was not in some way abusive. You are consistently abusive.
No one likes to hear that. Maybe you'll change. Maybe you'll just get madder without ever evaluating yourself.
In a public, face to face forum, you would not say the things you do. Why say it here?
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Actually, I'm not abusive. I'm just opinionated, and some people-- such as yourself- can't stand to hear someone with self confidence express their opinions.
Sheesh.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
And if you pointed out how even a compiler that optimizes poorly still sees big advantages from this, he'd probably look at you condescendingly and chuckle, only to claim it's impossible, because VB can't generate code for the Motorola chip.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
I hear people who wasted four years and $40,000 or more saying that a lot.
But Dictionary.com disagrees with them.
Since a degree in engineering says nothing about what your skill level is, and lacking one certainly doesn't, then it is irrelevant to whether someone can call themselves an engineer.
I've taught people with engineering degrees a thing or two many times over the years, and they've taught me things they picked up because they had a good prof.
But to say they are a "Real engineer" and I'm not is idiotic-- especially since the ones just out of school are about half as capable as I am.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Maybe I should have said real engineers keep engineering.
My point was the pseudo-techies who are now leaving in droves because the easy money is gone.
Not the guys who spend their weekends engineering.
Re:Good Riddance... (Score:2)
Lets see, he called me an ass. And then he says he doesn't know if he'll get flamed or not.
I respond by ignoring that he called me an ass and explaining my position further. I did not flame him, did not call him names, did not criticize him and I couched my words with terms like "maybe".
Yeah, my initial post was a rant-- "posting their own opinion" as you described it, and I have been flamed. But other than Perdo who posted my email address in the clear, people have been generally mature.
Do something that's actually fun (Score:5, Insightful)
It was the most worthwhile thing I've done in my life. Leaving the technology arena behind for a while gives you a new p.o.v. when you return that has really helped to prevent a second round of burn out.
Getting out of the business lets you realise that there still exists 90% of the world who just don' give a rats arse that KDE3 isn't packaged for Debian yet and that the ATI Mach64 driver for Xfree86 isn't quite ready, nor that the latest greatest Linux kernel uses a different scheduler to the one that was out 5.23112 days ago (according to automated statistics generated by some software that 90% of the world don't care about either).
Funny and true. (Score:3, Insightful)
"... 90% of the world who just don' give a rats arse that KDE3 isn't packaged for Debian yet and that the ATI Mach64 driver for Xfree86 isn't quite ready..."
Funny, and so true.
Re:Do something that's actually fun (Score:5, Funny)
Whatever you enjoy... (Score:4, Insightful)
I am in a similar situation, but I have not found a similar line of work that I feel as strongly about. Regardless of what the self-important idiots tell you, even some of us with the degree are seriously reconsidering.
It's obvious that the tech industry is one of the hardest hit by the current economic downturn. This is bound to cause a lot of ppl to rethink their career path.
First, you don't mention if you have a college degree or not. If so, you may think about getting a masters degree in another field. If you don't...well, get your bachelors degree.
The best place to look for direction is Electrical Engineering. One of the biggest problems in the tech industry (US and UK primarily) is the movement of jobs to offshore locations (India, China, etc). A similar thing happened in the 70s and 80s with Electrical Engineers. Some remained in the industry by taking pay cuts, others went into education, and still others went into non-related fields (Finance, Management, etc).
The computer field is no longer the glamorous job it was back during the dot-com boom. IT will rebound, but if you don't have an EE/CS/MIS degree you can pretty much write off finding a job in this industry for a long time to come.
If you still want someone to tell you what you should be doing, there are career advisors (check in your phone book) that will (for a fee) help you identify strengths, likes, dislikes, etc...they can then suggest alternatives or even help in finding a job in your current industry. These services aren't always cheap, but think of it as an investment in your future.
If on the other hand, the highest education you have achieved (or even expect to achieve) is a high school diploma...well, I'll let the other posts speak for themselves.
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:2)
I disagree. At least, you're right in that worthless companies won't hire you.
People complain a lot about bad management-- but they shouldn't be complaining about the management, they should be complaining that they didn't do their homework before taking the position.
A company that cares more about your piece of paper than your skills is exactly the kind of situation I was talking about-- poor hiring to fill seats without any actual thought about the person and their skills.
Frankly, unless you were too poor to have access to a 5-years-out-of-date computer to work with, there is no reason to go to most colleges than to get that piece of paper. They don't teach any skills you can't learn by yourself, and often better, by actually building stuff.
This is one of the great things about the open source movement-- anyone can create something, open source it, and show their worth to any future employer.
Show me some kid who wrote a P2P file sharing network and can explain to me the issues it faces when it scales and how he solved them and I'll hire him immediately over a guy with a Masters in CS from UT (or UW even) who hasn't written any software of significance that wasn't a school project. (Well, some of the good programs have people building larger systems and applications so I'd give credit for that, but your typical CS class small programs don't teach the skills that it takes to build, for instance, a P2P file sharing network. )
Most of the programmers I've worked with who were really poor had Masters degrees. It was supplanting the degree collection for learning that got them. I'm sure after a couple years on the job they became good programmers... but companies make a big mistake when they discount people who have built stuff in favor of people who have a degree and no experience.
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:2, Insightful)
Having that piece of paper shows that you can learn, it shows that you are "well reounded"...it's not just "programming/networking/etc" that you gain from that degree...you have a grasp of key concepts that are core to learning new things and interacting with other, more highly educated professionals.
To honestly "get ahead", you must have a grasp of math, english, history, sciences, law, economics, arts, etc. If you are a well educated individual (these are the ones hiring at 99% of the Fortune 500 companies...and every company wants to be in that list), then you will know the advantage of a degree first-hand. I will agree that there are alot of ppl in the industry that don't belong, but to tell you the truth, getting that degree shows alot more drive and determination than any number of years "tinkering"...obtaining a degree takes hard work and dedication. I don't doubt your sincerity, but without the paper to prove it, most will doubt your ability.
I do not disregard experience, but what you have to realise is that now companies can get both...
Regardless of what you think, companies will ultimately choose someone who has a degree over those that don't. This will become more obvious to everyone as time distances us from the dot-coms and the peak of the industry. Here's a good test...try to get into Intel's hardware development labs without an EE degree...
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:2)
Who said you had to go to college to get a well rounded education? Who said that wasting tens of thousands of dollars and putting up with poor service shows "ability"? Whoever said that was wrong.
There are some colleges that really educate. Unfortunately, I have more fingers and toes than there are such colleges in the US. Most colleges are a waste of money and time.
But since the olden days when they were the only source of learning, and since they put out lots of people who have an emotional investment in the idea that they didn't totally waste the money they are still paying off, there is hiring discrimination.
Any company, whether it is intel or joes garage, that hires based on degree rather than skill, is a stupid company.
And I believe there are very few, if any, colleges that by nature of having a degree from them, you have gotten a well rounded education. Especially state colleges.
No, the college industry is a scam. It is low return for high cost. The only thing that keeps it in business is hiring discrimination by people who think "I wasted four years of my life and $40,000, I'll be damned if I'm going to hire someone who's got better skills than me but didn't waste that money and time-- he'd be proof that I was stupid."
For some people, and some professions, like law, where there isn't an alternative, College makes some sense.
But for a tech job, it never does. You will never earn back the financial impact it had on your life-- even using the studies that show that you make more money with a degree, if you account for the fact that you have four years less experience than the guy who skipped college and started working, you make less money.
8 years out of high school, the guy with a BS and 4 years experience is going to loose to the guy with 8 years experience every time.
Hell, most places that hire me assume I have a degree, even though none is listed on my resume, and they never ask. They see my job experience, test my skill and offer me a job. I can't count the number of times college has come up and people are suprised I don't have a degree- its irrelevant to performance. Its only a societal idea that you have to go to college.... and its value (Verses its costs) diminishes greatly.
The first year after getting a degree, you have an advantage over someone who took 4 years to see the world and goof off. But no advantage over the guy who spent four years working for some company... and after another four years they will be assuming you both have degrees and seeing that he has twice as much job experience.
Now, if we jettisoned the pointless degree programs we have here in the US (especially in the CS arena) and instituted a combo- employment education program where people spent half their time working for employers and half their time in the classroom learning SKILLS RELEVANT TO THE JOB (And some others for rounding
But your average State U curriculum provides neither a well rounded education nor the real world skills necessary for good employment. At least for geeks.
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:2)
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:2)
Ha!
As to there only being %1 that aren't worthless, as long as people conform to the line and don't hold companies accountable in their hiring practices that will be true.
I won't be in competition with anybody because I'm no longer looking for jobs. I have crossed the line from employee to employer.
A bit selfrighteous aren't we (Score:2)
You are a bit on the uppity side aren't yah? Wow you employ some people WEE!!, good for you!, want a cookie?
I wouldn't say that only 1% of people aren't worthless. I would say that 98% of people are unimaginative, drone like, and have been taught / discovered that being unoriginal and following the status quo makes life easy, but I doubt that 99% of the people in the work force are worthless.
Many people that seem to be sheeple just need to be given the opportunity and motivation to be original and think outside the box, good management and leadership can do amazing things. This comes from someone who HATES management, in my first job I was forced to be a drone, and work with drones, and it amazed me how pitiful the average Amarican's existance is.
As I've discovered in my new position as an employer/owner/manager its amazing how little it takes to wake people from their stupor. Have a little faith in humanity, and quit being such a self-righteous ass. I think people inherintly suck, and that I am smarter than the majority of the population, but I don't shove in it people's faces or act like an ass. Just a thought.
Re:A bit selfrighteous aren't we (Score:2)
I love how you called me a self righteous ass based on your total misunderstanding of what I said.
I said %99 of the companies are worthless, not %99 of the people.
And I think people shouldn't put up with companies that don't- as you say- motivate people to original thinking.
So, I'm an "ass" for agreeing with you!
Re:Whatever you enjoy... (Score:2)
No. Someone who punts that whole scam and learns it on their own has shown that they can think for themselves.
A BS in college is the last step in the process of turning creative humans into mindless drones who won't put up a fight or think too much.
AN MS teaches you to think you're thinking without really thinking. And a PHd means you've merely regurgitated other people thinking in an entirely new and novel way.
This isn't always the case- there are useful colleges out there. I'm talking in the general.
My post IPO plans (Score:2)
I plan to make a nice nest egg ($200,000) living cheap/single and working in the tech sector for the next 3-5 years. Then I'm going to get a less stressful, more fun, lower paying job. I'm thinking river raft guide, kayak instructor or outdoor educator.
I figure I'll contribute to society while making the big bucks, and then enjoy being alive. Just my $.02
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:5, Interesting)
Something akin to this has worked well for me. I've lived below, or close to the poverty line for a long time, saving the difference and investing it. The nest egg was hurt by the downturn, but I'm buying, not selling. As warren buffet says "If you're going to be buying hamburger, do you want the price to be high, or low?"
But hey, if you make, say $75,000 a year, and live on $25,000 a year (possible in any city in the country, except New York I'm guessing. Certainly doable anywhere on the west coast) you should have $335,780.50 after 5 years. Which means, that at a risk free return of %8, you clear $26K a year-- you never have to work again (cause you can live on $25K a year, right?) A sixth year and aggressive investing would make this even more secure.
I've lived high on the hog-- bought a new computer, all the games I wanted, saw all the movies I wanted, ate out whenever I wanted, for only $28,000 a year in one of the most expensive cities on the west coast. Course I drive a-- wow, I didn't realize it was this old until just now-- 15 year old car that I've had for 7 years. And I'm not buying a house (which is actually a bad investment idea if the alternative is stocks, especially now with stock prices down and house prices still high.) etc. etc. etc.
Prudent money management opens up the best possible reason to leave the tech industry: financial independence.
A relative of mine never made more than $18,500 a year in his life. He lived for 30 years on the results of investing the difference (and he raised kids) between that and his costs... and when he died he was almost a millionaire.
Sometimes its amazing how many people who can do advanced calculus who don't really realize just how powerful compounding is, even over 5 or 10 years.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
That would have sucked. I mean, I plan on enjoying the fruits of my work. I plan on netting out zero.
Joe
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:3, Informative)
There's a great book on this called "Die Broke" which I've started to read but haven't yet finished.
He lived well and enjoyed the fruits of his work--its just that living well was still profitable for him!
Thats the amazing thing about a ball of money- you get it built up to a good head of steam and you can live off of it very well and still end up with more money the next year than you had the previous year.
As they say, the last check you write should be to your undertaker and it should bounce!
But its not always easy when you're over 80 and you don't have anything that you want to buy for $200,000.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:3, Funny)
At what point in your plan do you go to jail for not paying any taxes?
Hmmmm..... free room and board. Maybe the plan works after all!
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
No, I goofed and was talking after taxes. But if you make $100k you should be able to clear $75k after taxes.
If you only clear $50k after taxes then only spend $20k of it and save 30k a year. In ten years you'll be a millionaire.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
Unlikely. The states where taxes are that
low are the states where high incomes are
less common.
But anyway... the conclusion here is that
if you're among the top 5% of income earners
for 10 years, you can be a millionaire.
Hmmm.... high incomes lead to significant wealth.
Quelle surprise!
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
No, high savings rates leads to significant wealth.
Earn $75K, spend $25K. Learn to cook your own food by applying heat to chunks of meat and vegetables. Drive a $1000 shitbox, buying another used shitbox only when the old one dies. Retire early, move to a low-tax jurisdiction, and spend the rest of your days playing Counterstrike. w00t!
Earh $100K, spend $95K. Eat two $10 fast-food meals and three $4.50 Starbucks a day. Lease a car so you're always driving something cool. Hope you enjoy life on the status treadmill, 'cuz you ain't retiring 'til 65.
One other thing that nobody's mentioned - if you're single (or even if you're married and still sprog-free) - do you really want kids?
I, for instance, don't. That cuts about $200-300K off my lifetime cash needs right off the bat. I've chosen to remain single because most females in my age group either have breeding as a life goal, or say they don't, and then change their minds.
But if you can find a mate who also doesn't want kids, you each get to cut your living expenses in half - thereby increasing your savings rate and giving you a choice between retiring even earlier to a lifetime of Counterstrike (and always having a fragging partner!), or to retire at your original projected dates at a higher standard of living.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
This is so true it needs to be reiterated. I don't buy $1,000 cars, I buy $4,000 cars, but they last a long time (cause I buy well and take care of them.)
But look at it in comparison-- coworkers are often going out and buying new cars. They get a great deal on whatever and say it costs them $14,000.
Nevermind that I could buy FOUR cars with that money and just throw them away when they need new tires and still be driving the fourth car when this friend trades in his (underwater) car on a new one.
But just the interest alone on that car- at say %5 in the first TWO years of paying it off is enough to buy a car all by itself!
You get a $1000 car and replace the engine every 5 years at a thousand dollars a pop and over ten years you will have spent $3,000. While the guy who trades in a car every 5 years will have spent about $30,000 (or more.)
Plus if you drive a beater, you're much less likely to attract the females who insist on breeding.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
I don't know how many states have income taxes, but I do know I've never filed taxes in one. The last two states I lived in have some very rich people in them-- including the richest person in the world.
Is someone making $75k or $100k in the top %5 of income earners? I don't know. You see a lot of bogus stats sent around about this stuff- especially when tax cut bills are before congress.
But I have been told by my Tax Accounting software that the average income in the US is $36,000 a year, so twice that isn't probably that unusual for people in tech jobs.
The point being- -remember a relative of mine never earned more than $18,500 in a year and died close to a millionaire-- is that wealth comes from putting your money to work for you.
The average person in this country is poor (eg: negative net worth) only because they choose to be-- they have good jobs but trade in cars every five years, live on credit and buy houses every 7 years.
If you want to live your life that way, fine. But don't forget that the average millionaire in this country didn't get that way by winning the lottery or an IPO- he got that way by managing his money well and not taking on a lot of needless debt.
The average millionaire in this country earned around $70,000 (quoting from memory, os I may be off a bit- according to Millionaire next Door) and got to be a millionaire by NOT having the fancy house or sprots car. According to their research the average millionaire drives a ford ranger thats at least 3 years old.
The theory that only the lucky can be wealthy is a sham-- and it a shame that so many people who could live well in their retirement if they on;y managed their money prudently buy into it and make it a self fulfilling prophecy-- for them anyway.
Automatic Withdrawl (Score:2)
I have to admit that when I have money in the bank I tend to spend it, so I have learned that for me, automatic investing is the way to go. Set up an account at Vanguard or whatever and figure out how much you can live on of each month's income. Then send the rest to your investments. Also if you have access to a 401k you ought to be contributing at least up until the match. Roths are nice too.
Disclaimer: I am not a financial planner. Do not take this post seriously.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
No, inflation means that you have more money. I didn't include it in my return.
Risk free 8% return?? Not in the US.
just keep telling yourself that while you spend all your money. Sure, in the US you can do this, and elsewhere as well. There are lots of ways. Here's a simple one-- find a good REIT trust. Ok, or you can find a company's bonds that are well rated and returning %10, and also buy a hedge against them. Or buy stocks. IT depends on where you are in the market cycle, etc.
But it can be done, and easily.
Not buying a house? Let's see, no tax breaks, no itemizing deductions and no equity built up. Keep writing that check to your landlord
Actually, I don't have a landlord. I own where I live, but its not a house. Yeah, you get tax breaks but you're still spending that money. For the average person in the US they loose about %30 of the money they spent on a house. Renting a small apartment and investing the different will net you more money. I've done the spreadsheet. Even when you include the tax breaks-- but don't forget to include the costs of operating and maintaining that house, repairs, property taxes etc.
After I did this I told my CPA friend about it because I wondered what he'd think and he told me that he looked into buying the house next door to him as an investment property and it didn't make sense financially, even including the taxes (he had access to an excellent investment alternative in equity in a company.)
Now I've known people who bought quadplexes, fixed them up, and lived in them and rented out the other three units. Now THAT is an excellent investment.
But the average US house purchase is a money losing proposition- they stay in it only 7 years so they never actually pay any money in equity, and the costs over that time are huge, while the appreciation is negligible.
Real estate agents sure do like to spread the idea that owning a home is the best way to financial security... but its not true unless you're so poor at saving money that putting money into an account iwth a negative %15 return is the only way you'll save money.
Buy a boat, or a mobile home, or some land somewhere and put a shack on it. But don't buy your dream house. and don't buy a starter house and trade up in 7 years-- this typical path is a way to be taken to the cleaners.
Being a financial guru is knowing where conventional wisdom is wrong. Most people are sheeps who waste their money, live beyond their means, and NEVER DO THE MATH.
If you actually did the math on your home you'd be surprised.
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
I think BitGeek needs to do some more reading about investing etc. I've done the math and to maintain the standard of living that a person making $75,000 a year (this is $75,000 living within your means) you need about $2million invested in tax-free municipal bonds.
BitGeek took my comment and skewed the heck out of it. I was merely commenting on the fack that the stress of a Tech job is not something I want for 35 years. I'd prefer to do something more fulfilling than pushing 1's and 0's around all my life. I don't think mony=happiness, but when I see fellow classmates struggling to make the mortgage, car-payment, insurance, credicard bill my paid for rusty car looks better every day.
I think too may Americans work all week like dogs so they can spend it at the mall or in gas for their speedboats on Saturday. That is not the way that I want to live. Money doesn't mean squat if you are unhappy, but not having to worry about money makes life more fun!
Re:My post IPO plans (Score:2)
How exactly could you call Warren Buffet not a very good person?
Sheesh. I like Jimmy too, but is not like there cant' be two Buffetts in the world who are good people.
Someone who's been making $75k a year and LIVING ON $25k does not need to have $75 in returns a year to retire on-- they only need $25k.
Its a powerful mathematical tool-- you lower you cost of living and you greatly shorten the time it takes to where you can be financially independant because the money you set aside can be much smaller.
If you're post-retirment return is %10, and you live at a lifestyle of $100k a year, then you need $1,000,000. Which will be very hard to get if your income is $100k a year. Essentially infinite time to retirement.
If, on the other hand, you earn $100k a year and you live on $25k a year, then you only need $250k a year in retirement (Earning the same %10). This means your time to retirement is more like 3-5 years depending on your taxes and investment returns.
No retirement to 3-5 years to retirement is quite a difference. Of course, a lifestyle where you spend $100k a year is quite different from a $25k one.... but its your choice- financial independence soon or never.
Jimmy got his money by being lucky and working hard. Buffett made billions on investing, essentially
Retail Food Management (Score:2, Informative)
Most companies will hire right off the street for Department Manager Trainees, or higher if you have some retail experience. The pay obviously isn't spectacular, but it's enough to live comfortably on. Plus the job security is excellent -- no matter what the economy's like, people need to buy food, so you always have a job.
Admittedly, it's not for everyone. The customers can be outright nasty at times, and your peers might say stuff like "You're XX and you still work in a grocery store?" But if you can live with that, then it's really not that bad of a job.
BTW - If you live in CT or Western Mass, let me know and I can help you get into the chain I work for.
Maybe I shouldn't have quit UPS... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sarcasm aside, it's a rarity for an individual to remain in the same sector for the entirety of their lifetime. Fortunately, what keeps tech interesting is the continuous amount of change and rapid obsolesence of old knowledge.
Personally, I don't spend all my time and money on my computers at home and absorbing whatever new technology comes out. I know some of you are probably going to say my attitude is unfit to remain in IT. Well, my job doesn't require me to keep up with anything above Layer 4, and believe it or not, there is a lot more to life than technology...most notably, friends and family.
Where do I plan to go from tech? Depends on the amount of bullshit I can keep taking, and if my skill set further erodes since there's nowhere for me to go in my company to utilize anything I've learned. It's not the company's fault...the sector is horridly slow, and with almost 4 years of seniority I don't want to jump ship yet...especially since the pay is steady.
I'm starting to think that law enforcement looks like a pretty good field to move into next...time to build up on that CJ minor I got with my IS degree. A geek...with a gun...with the <cartman>authoritah!</cartman>
Re:Maybe I shouldn't have quit UPS... (Score:2)
He's a COBOL programmer in the insurance industry. Nice and stable. The software industry is still developing as the computer industry develops. Other industries have been doing the same thing for ages, and they'll continue to do things for ages.
Hot damn! (Score:5, Funny)
Please stop looking for positions in the IT field, I beg you! Once you wannabes stop flooding the market, people that actually love it, like myself, will finally be able to get a job.
Like the mighty locust, you can now swarm another occupational field, depleting it of everything nice and beneficial! Fly away little grasshopper, fly away! Consume everything in your new path, which is actually in the opposite of my path now. Tell all your little grasshopper friends to follow you! I will not warn anyone, you can trust me... sneak up on their careers and blight them!
Note to moderators: Do what you will. I am serious, and this is a prayer to whatever gods read slashdot, there is nothing you can do to stop that.
Not burned out.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Every job I've seen in the last year comes with a long list of ridiculously precise and inflexible requirements, so as soon as the interviewer sees that I'm obviously over 50, the rest of the interview is just a formality to get rid of me; they already have 'valid' reason ready.
I still do some freelancing (some teaching, some manuscript reviews, and the occasional small software project), but frankly, selling insurance pays better, and I have bills to pay. I also have some other business interests on the side that I do for fun: I am a Texas certified concealed handgun license instructor [chl-tx.com], I manufacture a line of concealed-carry holsters (not actively right now), and I help my wife with her homemade soap business [suzysoaps.com]. (Her website is under development as of this writing, but check back in a few weeks)
Re:Not burned out.... (Score:2)
That sucks. I hate age discrimination.
But there are others in your category-- you should team up with three or four others and start a software company. Or a consulting company.
Then your age goes from being a liability to an asset-- businessmen want older people they feel they can trust, rather than young bucks.
I remember working for one company, all staffed by people under 35, who was starting to hire based on grey hair-- if you had grey hair you got the job! We needed VC funding and new we'd never get it without a grey hair among us.
I agree with you on gun control as well.
I like making pizza. (Score:2, Funny)
You end up smelling like pizza, but it's an easy job, and you get to eat a lot of pizza. 'Managers' only make $10 an hour but it's better than a lot of other jobs. Besides, it factors 'food' right out of your monthly expenses.
My Retirement Plan (Score:3, Interesting)
If tech doesn't work out in the near term, I'm planning on trying to "retire early" and getting a teaching certificate. Most fun I ever had was teaching a College level Programming class to freshmen. I might not get the college freshmen with a certificate but maybe I could get the High School seniors?
Ebb and flow of tech workers (Score:3, Insightful)
There WERE a lot of marginal hacks that were hired over the past few years and tried to pass themselves off as computer professionals. For the most part, you're seeing them as the ones losing their jobs, and having trouble finding new ones. "You can't do that to me! I am an Internet Professional!!!" (For some reason, I'm reminded of a scene from the Internet personality Ben Brown here.)Your better employees aren't having as much problem.
And people who are hiring right now know that the market is flooded with B-list players. They're common, and generally unwanted. It is only a matter of time before they give up and look for jobs elsewhere. Really, this isn't a bad thing.
Re:Ebb and flow of tech workers (Score:3, Insightful)
Part of the problem is that to discern a quality engineer from one who is a B-list player, as you put it, exceeds the skills of every HR professional I've ever known.
Since the HR industry is even more overwhelmingly staffed by b-list people, they are completely unable to tell an engineer from a "Internet Professional" So it is bad for the good people too-- until their resume manages to randomly hit the desk of someone who can tell and engineer from a resume writer, the market is tough.
But this problem cuts both ways-- if the hiring that was done in the boom had been done correctly in the first place, the hacks wouldn't have gotten hired and the boom probably wouldn't have busted as bad.
The HR profession is close to cops and lawyers on my list. Not as corrupt and evil, but just as incompetent. (Which is not to say I haven't met competent ones. They are just few and far between.)
Teaching English as a Foreign Language (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.teflasia.com/
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After we sell the company (Score:2)
Burn-Out (Score:2)
It's easy to feel "burned-out" and stressed working for the wrong sort of company i.e. two-bit operations and places where they expect you to do absolutely everything, work in the evenings at home, weekends on unrealistic projects, unrealistic deadlines etc. I've been there myself, and here's what I did.
My degree is in Astrophysics, but I've been a computer geek since I was 8 years old.
After my degree I got some losy jobs contracting with some small IT companies that were going no where and burning me out too. So, I exited stage left and got a job as a Reactor Physics Engineer at a nucelar powerstation.
It was very different. Sensible, intelligent people, realistic deadlines and workload, reasonable pay, long holidays, sensible overtime. I stayed there for nearly 5 years, being trained in all maner of technical subjects (reactor physics theory) right down to occupational safety.
In the meantime I was running Linux at home, improving my coding, learning C++, etc. Then, when a better job came up at a big computer systems company I was all set.
I have no regrets at all. It's not just about you, it's about who you're working for.
Re:Burn-Out (Score:2)
I can't agree more-- demand that the comapnies you work for be decent. Don't be a petulant irrational child as many engineers are, yet at the same time put up with stuff that you really shouldn't put up with.
Provide excellence and expect it in return. Be a class act and your employer will know that without treating you like one he'll be likely to loose you.
Make the deadlines realistic and then deliver on them-- it cuts both ways.
Military (Score:2, Interesting)
What the high flyers will be doing next (Score:3, Funny)
Steve Ballmer - dance instructor (he can only hope)
Steve Jobs - playboy billionaire by day, super spy by night (he always gets the cool gigs)
Paul Allen - sporting magnate (congrats Paul, you're already there)
Larry Ellison - interior designer (daaling, I just love what you've done with the house)
Philippe Kahn - TV chef (a good cook who knows how to make things from nothing is priceless)
Carly Fiorina - take over the Martha Stewart empire (because it needs to re"invent" itself)
Michael Dell - pro surfer (dude, you're getting a board!)
Jean-Louis Gassee - paranoid schizophrenic (why won't they just let him Be?)
Re:What the high flyers will be doing next (Score:3, Interesting)
When you have $50 billion (give or take), $100 million is only 0.2 percent of your net worth. It's like a guy who has $1000 giving away $2.
Granted, the Gates Foundation is bigger than that (according to their annual report they gave $1 billion in grants last year) but some of their reporting is misleading - a considerable proportion of their education-based aid is in the form of Microsoft software and/or has other Microsoft-related terms and conditions applied to it.
How much does a copy of Office notionally cost? $800? Well, give away 100,000 copies to education and there's $80 million already. And let's not forget Encarta, etc.
And while $1 billion dollars might sound like a lot, it's probably less than what the foundation earns in annual interest alone.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that the foundation is there and that it's doing something to help fight AIDs, improve literacy, etc, it's just that I don't like their accounting practices - a copy of Office isn't as valuable as a couple of hundred TB vaccinations.
Re:furniture design (Score:2)
Sounds like you can well afford $2300 to buy the equipment, and say another $700 for materials.
And you have three days a week to work on it.
Why the hell don't you? Clearly you want to- I bet it would balance out the stress of consulting to a large degree..
And what would it hurt? You have the time (unless you are actually spending more than 2 days a week).
You know theres a market for stuff you want to make with your hobby and you aren't taking it up? Wheres the downside? You have a day job...