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Education

Are Colleges Helping to Maintain the Microsoft Monopoly? 201

Posted by Cliff from the indoctrinations-of-higher-education dept.
lexus99 asks: "Recently, while attending college and wanting to take tests in order to avoid taking basic computer courses, I have signed up for a few SAM (Skills Assessment Manager) tests. What really surprised me is that these tests are entirely based upon Microsoft products (Windows XP and Office XP). Note that this course is -required- before taking any any of the more advanced courses. Is this not a clear cut case of U.S. Colleges forcing its students to exclusively use Microsoft's software? Does Microsoft pay for this 'privledge', or do the schools get some type of M$ discounts? I don't believe that I will have any problem passing these tests, as I frequently use M$ software in my workplace, but I cannot help but feel insulted that I have to take them in order to take more advanced UNIX courses." This issue is a lot more complex than it sounds. Many colleges fall into Microsoft's software because they do get decent volume discounts and Microsoft provides them with decent service, so why change what works? However, with the new licensing schemes that Microsoft is beginning to push, maybe we'll see some change in this area in the near future. Have any of you seen evidence of Microsoft worming it's way into your college courses?
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Are Colleges Helping to Maintain the Microsoft Monopoly? More

Are Colleges Helping to Maintain the Microsoft Monopoly?

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  • In the real world... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You pay for what you get.

  • Graphics @ ASU (Score:3, Informative)

    by E1v!$ ( 267945 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @12:55AM (#4439549) Homepage
    In my 400 level 'intro to graphics' the professor REQUIRED that we use MS Products for developement.

    Several weeks later after ~50% of the class wouldn't be quiet about it, he said he'd allow any language, but no others were supported by the TA.

    The following semester he continued to allow any tools/language, but only 'supported' M$.

    • Graphics @ mah.se (Score:2, Informative)

      by frawaradaR ( 591488 )
      I recently signed up for a bunch of smaller classes at a newer and smaller Swedish college. They are 100% M$ and only give "support" for "WS_FTP" and such things.

      The labs are all equipped with WIN-DOS, with a rare exception for the film editing classes, where classy Mac computers are used (and the executives also use TiBooks on WiFi).

      The teacher (not a professor) in the graphics class is praising his M$ certification, but I wish he could get a more relevant Adobe certification instead. He doesn't even use Adobe, but has opted for Corel instead. In the real world, where I have been for a while before returning to school, the combination WIN-DOS + Corel PhotoPaint does not exist. The labs don't have Photoshop or Illustrator, so it's gotta be a money issue.

      The web classes have a similar approach. They teach outdated 1996ish table-based and pixel-based HTML for Exploiter and Netscape 4.x, and don't give a fuck about standards and more legitimate web techniques. The WIN-DOS labs have Internet Exploiter 5 and Netscape Communicator 4.79. Mozilla is not known, and they really don't care about the Mozilla-based Netscape 7.

      Now, at larger and more traditional educational institutions, Sun boxen and Macs are used to a much higher degree. When the web was born circa 1993, the sysadmins at a technical educational facility quickly installed NCSA Mosaic and set up a web server. This is more in line what I would expect from educational institutions, being ahead and being more advanced than what they require at a small company office...

      Fortunately, they still do have a more Unix and Mac oriented view at those larger and traditional facilities, but I fear that they too will be swamped into the black M$ hole one of these days.
      • The web classes have a similar approach. They teach outdated 1996ish table-based and pixel-based HTML for Exploiter and Netscape 4.x, and don't give a fuck about standards and more legitimate web techniques. The WIN-DOS labs have Internet Exploiter 5 and Netscape Communicator 4.79. Mozilla is not known, and they really don't care about the Mozilla-based Netscape 7.

        Well, in all fairness, the purpose of those classes is to reflect the real world, right? For the same reason that you rightfully complain about teaching a graphics class with Corel PhotoPaint, it would be kind of silly to teach a web class with Mozilla. Internet Explorer 5 and Netscape 4 (on both Windows and Mac) represent the vast majority of web clients out there. (There's a significant fraction of IE 6 for Windows, too, but I understand that it's pretty much bug-for-bug compatible with IE 5, so it doesn't really count.)

        I'm this close --><-- to launching into a rant about how Mozilla would be a much more useful browser if it had been written to be fully compatible with the various quirks of IE 5 as well as all those new-fangled standards that lots of people talk about but hardly anyone uses. This is neither the time or the place for it, so I'll abstain. But it's there, just below the surface, and it would be dishonest of me to try to hide it.

        • Re:Graphics @ mah.se (Score:3, Insightful)

          by DarkVein ( 5418 )

          The quirks are not simply quirks. They are Flat-Out-Absolutely-Wrong implimentations of web standards. There are more than a few web browsers out there: Opera, Mozilla (phoenix, chimera, k-meleon), Omniweb, Konqueror, even Links (lynx does not parse CSS). All of them, except IE5 and IE6 (and only on Windows... IE5:mac is correct), calculate css width, margins, border, and padding the exact same way. IE[5,6]:Win, however, conclude that border and padding are included in width, in direct literal contradiction with the CSS1 and CSS2 W3C recomendations.

          Quirks like that I do not want to see Mozilla adopt. It's incorrect, and it doesn't even make sense to do it that way, unless you include margins, which is impossible because of the way margin-top and margin-bottom interact. It'd be a quirk if there weren't a spec. IE is, however, wrong, and there are ten other implimentations of the same standard that prove it.

          • Everything you said is true-- I assume. I won't bother fact-checking you, because the facts of your post aren't relevant.

            Saying "IE does it wrong" is kind of like choosing only to speak Esperanto. You may be technically right, but your solution isn't a practical one.

            I think Mozilla would be a more useful browser if it could render pages the same way IE renders them. This isn't the case now; pages that render perfectly well in IE fail to render correctly in Mozilla. (I'm too lazy to find an example for you; finding one for yourself shouldn't be difficult, if you're interested in trying.) If I'm looking at a page in Mozilla that doesn't render correctly, I can sit back in my chair and say to myself, with satisfaction, "Well, that's another web site that's written incorrectly. Shame on them!"

            And then I close Mozilla and fire up IE, so I can see the page I was looking for. And, since there aren't really any pages that fail to render correctly in IE, I don't see much reason to ever go back to Mozilla. See, because in this example Mozilla has failed to perform its one and only function: rendering web pages.

            I've said this before, and I'll say it again: web standards are relevant only to the extent that they reflect the real world. If the page renders correctly in 90% of the world's browser instances, but is in violation of the standard, then it seems to me that the standard-- or at least an up-and-coming implementation of the standard-- needs to be reevaluated.

            • Re:Graphics @ mah.se (Score:5, Insightful)

              by DarkVein ( 5418 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:05AM (#4440323) Journal

              I'll not dwell too long on this; Your analogy to Esperanto is flawed. Mozilla speak's the Queen's HTML/CSS/DOM/etc, while IE speaks a slang popularlized by MTV & friends. Those who understand the slang might not understand all your fancy words or be confused when you respond positively to a double negative, but you're speaking pure English.

              I see you don't claim to be a web designer. A casual speaker of English wouldn't care at the misuse of a semicolon. A professional writer wishing to write to a casual audience might curse that he can't convey the exact meaning a semicolon would bring, because the causal audience wouldn't pick up on it. So he curses and writes longer sentences that everyone will grasp.

              Web designers writing for the causal, apathetic, audience have to write so that IE understands. IE is the 7th-grade English level that novels need to be written for. IE doesn't understand what a comma splice is, but it understands "UR K-KOOL DUDE", even though "UR" should be "U R".

              I see many pages that IE renders blatantly wrongly, but then, like most web designers, I've usually written those pages: The next 75% of my job is getting IE to display it the way my other 7-10 browsers do. Successful web designs are done this way because it is impossible to start with an IE-specific design and go to a design everyone can use.

              Your last paragraph is curious. The standards are set, and people build implimentations off those standards. Because I impliment the standard in a sub-par way, but I market well, should the quality of the standard be lowered and invalidate the work of dozens of higher quality projects?

              It has been a long time since I saw a web site Mozilla does not render properly, by the way. css/edge [meyerweb.com] is one I usually point out when arguing for standards acceptance. These designs are beautiful and elegant, but fail in IE and old versions of Opera. These are simple things. This copy [earthlink.net] of the OGF's SRD demonstrates one of the simpler things IE just can't grasp.

              Anyhow, I understand your run-with-mob perspective, but I don't believe it can apply rationally in this case. It's a quick step to communication lockdown if we allow our method of communication to be controlled entirely by a single corporate entity, whoever the hell they are.

              • You argument is normative: this is how things should be, you say. My argument is practical: this is how things are.

                Most of the world uses IE. Hardly anybody-- as a fraction of total surfers-- uses Mozilla. Therefore web sites will continue to be built exclusively for IE, because there's just no point in wasting the time to make them work in Mozilla, or any of the other "fringe" browsers. If the designer of the site gets lucky and the pages render identically in IE and Mozilla-- which they probably will, if he sticks to old-school techniques like table-based layouts-- then that's fine and good. But if Mozilla renders the pages incorrectly, that's just too bad.

                The Mozilla guys could have nipped this problem in the bud if they'd made their browser rendering engine compatible with IE. There should be a button on the Mozilla interface someplace-- prefs, probably-- that controls whether the engine renders pages according to the paper standard, or whether it renders pages according to the de facto standard. This button should default to IE compatibility.

                Since there is no such button, Mozilla is effectively a novelty. Despite what some feature-fetishists may think, the sole and only purpose of a web browser is to render web pages they way the designers intended them to be rendered. If Mozilla can't do that, it's kind of a failure.

                Incidentally, your comment that there are "7-10" other web browsers out there seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me. IE and Netscape 4 cover something like 95% of all users, I believe. Mozilla, Opera, iCab, and OmniWeb are all fairly well-known, but a big web site-- like a bank, or a corporate site-- can reasonably expect to go its whole life without ever getting a hit off of any of those browsers. The last site I administered was getting more hits from GoogleBot than it got from all four of those browsers combined.

                Just my two cents.
                • Ah yah! You miss the point. Completely. Educational facilities are supposed to be at the forefront of things, not a copy of the real world. Therefore, they should not teach the techniques of 1996 or today, but of tomorrow. And tomorrow we will, believe it or not, use mature software that can deal with standards across the board. At one point, when corporate interests say so, the boat will turn, and the students of today should be prepared for that very moment. Learning 1996ish HTML can be done at home in a few hours. We don't need to waste university resources for that.

                  I am again stressing the university attitudes when the web was in its infancy, when the first servers were installed and the students became the first to get involved in web design. This was a few years before it all spread to the masses. The colleges of today should be equally at the forefront, preparing students for what will come, not for what is.
                  • So I guess we're talking about the difference between theoretical web design and applied web design.

                    I disagree with your premise. If you're learning web design in school, you'll be better served with an eduction in applied web design.
                    • Universities are supposed to teach theory. That's what sets them apart from trade schools. If a university class is teaching only applied design, then that class is a waste of university (and student) resources. If all you want to learn is applied design, then go to a trade school and get it done in 12-18 months and enjoy your job placement assistance, because a university is not the place for you.

                • Re:Graphics @ mah.se (Score:2, Insightful)

                  by Dark Fire ( 14267 )
                  If 5% of your customers use a different browser than IE, and you want to get the most value from your website, create pages that work for both. Getting ROI from a website is hard enough without throwing away the opportunity to catch that 5% by making your pages compliant. If you spend money on your website to make it valuable to you and your customers, why not spend some extra $$$ to make it viewable by everyone. Other browsers do have a user base no matter that 95% use IE. That 5% is not going away. If you start designing standards compliant and then introduce browser specific variations as needed, it is much easier than designing a page against and quarky and moving implementation and then trying to make it work with another browser. Remember, the browsers are trying to implement the standards, so it makes more sense to start with the standards and alter them as necessary. Microsoft has stated its support for web standards, so each new version of its browser is going to be moving closer to web standards.

                  My $.02.
                  • You're missing the idea of diminishing returns. Let's say it costs $10 to build a site that works perfectly in IE. That covers 95% (let's say) of your potential visitors.

                    To modify the site to make it compatible with Mozilla will cost you $2.50. Is it worth spending 25% of your budget to make your site work with about 3% of your potential vistors? No, it's not.

                    Again, remember that we're talking about what actually happens in the real world, here, not what should or could happen. You have to be practical.
              • I have only recently run into pages that wouldn't render properly in Mozilla, such as the most recent redesign of Providian's site [slashdot.org]. It's only been sites with menu bars at the top that I've noticed problems with, and I have no idea if that has anything to do with HTML or not.

                I've also noticed that since nVidia redesigned their driver download page(s) there is a critical button that simply won't work in Mozilla, though I'm pretty possitive that this isn't anything to do with HTML.

                However, these occurances are few and far between. In fact, they are infrequent enough that whenever I encounter such a problem I send the offending company an email politely explaining that those of us who prefer not to support convicted abusive monopolies would appreciate the minimal extra care it takes to ensure that we are able to use the companies online resources.

                I think the only way the situation is going to change is those of us who care take the time to inform the people creating these sites. I we don't, then they can go on thinking that it doesn't matter since everyone just uses MSIE anyway. Make them aware, and hopefully they will change their ways.

            • Re:Graphics @ mah.se (Score:2, Insightful)

              by Anonymous Coward
              So basically what you're saying is that whoever has the most market deserves to make all the rules, regardless of anything else? What you're saying then, by implication, is that any company should do whatever it can to gain a monopoly, since it can then introduce new "features" that will prevent any competitors from releasing competing products.

              For example, if microsoft decided to add a MagicRenderer that allowed a web developer to encrypt the actual HTML file so that the user never got to see the source code (i.e. via view source) -- I guess think of it as a precompiled web page -- and didn't share that info with anyone else, and developers started using that technology, then short of reverse engineering the MagicRenderer protocol, nobody else would ever be able to create a competing product.

              If a page renders correctly on 90% of the browsers but is in violation of the standard, the standard does not need to be reevaluated - it needs to be enforced.

      • Re:Graphics @ mah.se (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Kyber ( 580433 )

        I attended a CS course for a while, after my ex .com job went down the drain and before I managed to find a new one. Also in Sweden. The CS course only used MS-products, with the exception of GCC under Windows.

        When asked for feedback from the course organizers, me and a couple of other guys pointed this out with the main argument that the students weren't given broad, widely applicable knowledge, but rather product-specific knowledge. Didn't really seem like they cared. Then we mentioned how they probably could save around $200 US (2000 SEK) worth of licence costs per computer. And then suddenly they sounded VERY interrested. 8)


    • In my 400 level 'intro to graphics' the professor REQUIRED that we use MS Products for developement.

      This person clearly is not competent enough to teach an intro to computers class, let alone a programming class, and certainly not an advanced programming class.

      Its unfortunate that you actually paid good money for that class. And you'll realize just how much of a waste it was if you ever go do graphics work in the real world and have to start over from scratch.

      Am I omniscient? No, its just that colleges that taught computer science (Except for a very select few) were worthless 10 years ago and they have only been getting worse.

    • Try Carnegie Mellon! (Score:5, Funny)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @03:50AM (#4439932) Journal
      The only computer science classes you're going to get on Windows at Carnegie Mellon University is if you're a non-CS major taking intro CS classes. These are done using Metrowerks' suite (as opposed to MS's).

      Everything else is done on Linux or Solaris. I'm taking a *video games* course that is taught on Linux.

      Couldn't be a better place if you like doing your work in a UNIX environment.

      Students are told in their third CS course that while they can turn in proofs written in Microsoft Equation Editor, that it will be harder, and that they are strongly recommended to learn LaTeX.

      I still remember a philosophy professor that handed out an assignment in Word format.

      I thought about complaining, but thought that it wasn't worth it, so I just printed it out at one of the clusters that have Windows installed.

      The next day, in class, the professor said "due to overwhelming demand, future assignments will be given in PDF format..."

      There's no reliance within the university on Microsoft file formats, and serious animosity to moving to anything that's available only from Microsoft.

      If you want a good CS curriculum that isn't a bunch of regurgitated "how to design foo in Visual Studio", and you like UNIX...you're likely to like CMU.
      • As a non-CS Carnegie Mellon student, I must sadly report that the situation isn't like this at all in other departments. I was preparing a ./ post myself a couple of days back, but waw reluctant to post it because if was too bitter to CMU.

        The situation goes like this: (Heinz School of Business & Public Policy)

        We were required to have a laptop. At the same time, anyone not purchasing the "official" CMU laptop (IBM Thinkpad T23 with Windows XP and 15GB more of crappy software, all notoriously misconfigured) was penalized with a "support premium" of $750. So we aaaall had to have this nice XP-based system, full of M$ products (.NET studio, full Office suite etc). Why, I ask?

        Further, since I deleted everything and installed GNU/Linux on the laptop, I've noticed a couple of "incompatibilities" with the university. If I want to change my departmental password, I have to go to the help desk and ask them to do it for me, because the only electronic way of doing it, is a windows utility! (I'm not talking about the campus-wide password here, just the Heinz password).

        Or take the other day, we were having a student rep election. Votes were submitted to a (non-encrypted...) website, that did not work with Mozilla or Konqueror. It just would not register my vote, returning an error message. When I told the department about that, they said other (IE) users did not have any problems.

        On any other occasion that I've asked for help (mostly to do with encrypting my communication with the university servers), I've received a bunch of "well, we don't really support your platform" replies.

        I'm really frustrated at the M$-exclusive policy of my department, especially taking into account CMU's reputation and the conditions that you reported for the CS department!

        The incident with the Word file you mentioned happened to me, in precicely the reverse way. I submitted an assignment as .pdf, only to be told off and asked (in all capitals) PLEASE, FROM NEXT TIME, USE MS-WORD TO DO THE HOMEWORK.

        How does one deal with an attitude like that?
        • Hmm. I don't have much experience with the Heinz School of Business. I *am* TAing a computer security course for the Graduate School of Industrial Administration, and students in there are required to install *both* Linux and XP to do all their coursework, so I suppose that the more businessy you get, the less Linuxy. :-(

          $750 support premium

          Support premium? Weird -- never heard of it. Who gets the money, Heinz or Carnegie Mellon? It can't be Computing Services, which is CMU-wide...

          If I want to change my departmental password, I have to go to the help desk and ask them to do it for me :-( Sorry, wasn't aware of this. The rest of CMU uses Kerberos for just about everything...

          Actually, if their Windows strategy really is cost-effective, I wonder why they have to hit you with a $750 premium that doesn't affect the rest of the students?

          Or take the other day, we were having a student rep election. Votes were submitted...did not work with Mozilla or Konqueror

          Again -- I can't say anything. Has to be Heinz alone...I remember at one point you couldn't use an internal CMU-wide webpage w/o Javascript. I complained and they rewrote it...and that's the only time I can remember having issues.

          CMU (not SCS, but Computing Services) officially supports at *least* Andrew Linux and Red Hat Linux. You might try the CMU-wide Computing Services if you need better support (or cmu.misc.market.computers, which gets a lot of support requests), or Zephyr one of the help channels.

    • Re:Graphics @ ASU (Score:3, Insightful)

      by TheSHAD0W ( 258774 )
      > he continued to allow any tools/language, but
      > only 'supported' M$.

      I can understand your complaining about his not allowing the use of non-Microsoft tools. Whining that he won't "support" them is another matter. What would you do, force the teacher to study all the other software tools on all the other platforms so he'd be ready to assist you with your particular flavor?

      I'm not a huge fan of MS's business tactics, but you're going too far.
    • What graphics packages were they?

      Most graphic programs are windows based with the exception of Maya and renderman.

      3dstudioMax is pretty standard in the corporate world.

      If its web development then its different.
      • Since it was most likely a programming course, they were probably using OpenGL, and maybe GLUT to make it easier to set up things like windows. Both are available on most platforms.

  • I don't see the problem ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Breakerofthings ( 321914 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:02AM (#4439570)
    This is not a troll ... I use Linux/FreeBSD exclusively; don't even own a Windoze box ... BUT
    1) requiring students to have a proficiency in MS Products in no way "forcing its students to exclusively use Microsoft's software?" The problem here is your [mis]use of the word "exclusively".
    2) I am as pro OSS as anyone (except perhaps RMS ;), but this is the real world. (Unfortunately, IMHO), windows is what is "out there", predominantly. While I am excited by the growth in Linux's market share, and anticipate the day MS is no longer an effective monopoly, I am realistic; One needs a minimal level of proficiency in MS Products to succeed. At work, we are a GNU Linux/FreeBSD shop; all servers, all development,EXCEPT for the workstations in Sales, which are Win2000 ... So, even though I am a "Unix Guy", I still have to deal with Windows, which is the case in, I suspect, virtually any job (hell, even if you are a web developer in a strictly Unix Server environment, you STILL should test on Windows browsers!!)

    So ... What exactly is your problem here? do you think you should be graduated ignorant of the OS with the *vastly* greater market share? What would *that* say about your school?
    • So ... What exactly is your problem here? do you think you should be graduated ignorant of the OS with the *vastly* greater market share? What would *that* say about your school?

      I don't have a "problem" with it, but whats wrong with a more general testing program that covers other manufacturers products as well?

      If I were going into the Law field, I would probably want to learn WordPerfect, as this is what a large majority of Law Firms use.

      When knowledge of Powerpoint is "REQUIRED", it most certainly emplants an early familiality of that program instead of more capable products such as MacroMedia's [macromedia.com] "Director," for example. It is a fact that most people continue to use the same software they learned in school, further fueling the M$ monolopy.

      • I don't have a "problem" with it, but whats wrong with a more general testing program that covers other manufacturers products as well?

        Where do you draw the line? If you take all businesses-- in the English-speaking world, at least; I'm sure things are different elsewhere in ways I'm not educated about-- and lump them together, you'd probably find that about 90% of the desktop computers run Windows and MS Office. If you narrow down your sample by choosing a particular field-- like graphic arts, or programming-- the fractions would come out differently. The vast majority of graphic arts is done on Macs, and a significant minority of programmers run UNIX on their desktops. But in order to see those things, you have to choose your sample carefully.

        The more carefully you choose your sample, the more skewed your results. For example, if you went back in time to about 1992 and examined only 3D animators' workstations, you'd find that more than half of all desktop computers run SGI IRIX. Does that mean that schools should offer proficiency tests in IRIS Showcase instead of (or even in addition to) PowerPoint? Like I said, where you draw that line?

        I'm sure you're right, that familiarity with a tool leads to entrenchment-- if I can get away with using such a loaded word-- of that tool, but you've got to be realistic, I think.

      • Re:Wordperfect (Score:3, Informative)

        by benjamindees ( 441808 )
        If I were going into the Law field, I would probably want to learn WordPerfect, as this is what a large majority of Law Firms use.

        I consult for a law firm and this is a big problem. Interns come in straight from undergrad and bitch and cry because they don't have Word. Despite the glaring security holes [slashdot.org] and lesser functionality for lawyers, they are considering deploying Word on their workstations alongside Wordperfect just to stay compatible with their clients and to pacify these interns.

      • When knowledge of Powerpoint is "REQUIRED", it most certainly emplants an early familiality of that program instead of more capable products such as MacroMedia's [macromedia.com] "Director," for example. It is a fact that most people continue to use the same software they learned in school, further fueling the M$ monolopy.

        Director a replacement for Powerpoint? Horseshit. Director is $1200 and geared towards things like Shockwave apps, not basic slide presentations. They're completely different products.
    • I am as pro OSS as anyone (except perhaps RMS ;)

      Hate to nitpick, but RMS is not very pro OSS, but rather strongly pro free software.

      • Absolutely no offense intended to anybody, but it always seemed to me that RMS is more pro-RMS than he is anything else. His ideas on freedom, in particular, seem quite unusual. For example, he advocates absolute freedom in one breath and tells everybody what to do in the next. He's very odd, in my opinion.
        • For example, he advocates absolute freedom in one breath and tells everybody what to do in the next.

          I assume you are referring to the 'viral nature' of GPL, i.e. that derivative works must also be GPL. I don't see any contradiction; what RMS wants is the most freedom for everyone. Look at it this way. Bill Gates has complete control of Windows, more than a free software developer does over a project he contributes too. But the general population of Windows users has much less freedom than they do with open source. Allowing Bill Gates complete freedom costs the rest of us a significant deal of freedom. RMS does not think it is too much to want everyone to share the same level of freedom for free software programs.

      • He defines "Free software" as "nobody should be allowed to make any money on any software, ever".

        Free as in totalitarian.

        Fortunately, most developers have enough self esteem to not fall for this totalitarianism wrapping itself in the word freedom.

  • Here at UTA its called CUPS (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mfos.org ( 471768 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:02AM (#4439571)
    I go to University of Texas at Arlington, and we have similar requirements here called Computer User Profeciency. Everyone is required to take it and demonstrate basic skills in Word processing and spreadsheets (also internet and e-mail). The tests occur on MS products, simply because that's what 90% of the world uses. However, they keep the tests as general as possible, and anyone who uses KOffice, the Gnome suite, or Open Office can do fine.

  • my school (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pizza_milkshake ( 580452 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:22AM (#4439622)
    i just started going to school again part-time, and they are M$-whores. On the plus side I got free copies of Windows XP and VS.NET. I haven't used them and probably never will, but you never know.

    My CS 171 course is taught using solely VC++. In fact alot of students noticed when I brought in a non-Windows lappy into our lab (our classroom is several long tables with Thinkpads with NT4 on them) -- they look at me differently because I get all my work done with vim in a console. I am by no means even a power *NIX user, and it concerns me that I get the feeling that they think I'm doing something they couldn't do.

    • Re:my school (Score:2, Troll)

      by BitGeek ( 19506 )
      My CS 171 course is taught using solely VC++

      This kind of talk just reaffirms my belief that college is a waste of money in this country.

      What you really need to be an engineer is a mode of thinking-- something that colleges don't bother to teach. And what they do teach is a waste of time.

      A class that provides VC++ examples is fine. But one that requires you to write "VC++" code rather than C++ code, is a waste of time.

      Nothing makes me think an prof is someone who is teaching because he's totally incompetant at the art but not being able to seperate an environment from a language.

      This is the kind of idiocy we've grown to expect from airhead bimbo recruiters who think Oracle 8.15 and 0racle 8.14 are totally different products.

      Any programming class that requires a specific compiler is a waste of money. Demand your money back and transfer to a better school.

  • $6 a copy (Score:3, Informative)

    by Peapod ( 568493 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:37AM (#4439663)
    At UTD where I currently am attending, and the same with all UT system schools (including, but not limited to Tyler, El Paso, Austin, etc.) its $6 a copy for Win98SE, Win2k or WinXP Pro.

    $6

    I know this is not the popular opinion here, but for $6, I can have me a Legal copy of any of the preceeding OSes. I hate to say it, because I think that Micro$oft (ooo.. look at me, I'm cool becuase I used $ in stead of an 's.' I'm a clever boy) has too much sway and control over computing these days, but this is simply good business. Continuing to keep people using your products is not a sign of a monopoly, its a sign of a competitive business. All smart companies that desire to remain companies will do this.

    I went out and got all three and then some other MS software because its dirt cheap, it does what I want and its what the world uses. Eventually, I will have a server running, using Linux, but not for my desktop.

    But then again, I'm probably just a troll sell out or something. I can kiss my kharma good bye for this one can't because I have original ideas can't I?
    • ...because I have original ideas can't I?

      indeed, it's just you and Bill Gates running Windows. God bless you.

    • it does what I want and its what the world uses
      um....sounds to me like "Everyone's doing it, why shouldn't I?"

      I can kiss my kharma good bye for this one can't because I have original ideas can't [sic (double negative)] I?
      Isn't that the idea of the bandwagon? You don't have to think for yourself, just hop on, so why do you need your own "original" ideas?

      And...
      Windows for $6? How did it get so cheap? Your tuition that could have been spent elsewhere...

      Also, Microsoft has been declared by the U.S. government to be a monopoly, not showing a "sign of a monopoly" as you say.

      --
      notepad: the most stable and secure M$ product ever...
      • Windows for $6? How did it get so cheap? Your tuition that could have been spent elsewhere...

        So... let me get this straight. You're suggesting that the OP choose a different university because the one in question offers deep student discounts on Microsoft software?

        I think you might've left your sense of proportion in your other pants.
    • $6

      How many copies can you buy? If you're not limited, I'd buy 100.

      These will certainly sell for $20 on ebay.

    • That's ludicrous.

      for $6, I can have me a Legal copy of any of the preceeding OSes...is not a sign of a monopoly, its a sign of a competitive business

      This is called predatory pricing (unless you really think that total costs in producing and shipping that product to you were under $6) is is not only illegal but one of the top warning signs for a monopoly.
      • This is called predatory pricing (unless you really think that total costs in producing and shipping that product to you were under $6) is is not only illegal but one of the top warning signs for a monopoly.

        Actually, it probably did cost less than $6 to produce and ship. Colleges with this kind of deal are usually permitted to print their own CDs of a source image provided by MS - that's how the University of Cincinnati does it, for example. It costs MS the price of sending the university the source image - couple bucks, max.

        They also usually come without a manual, box, etc - just the CD.
      • No, it's not predatory pricing. I have basicly the same deal at my school (Indiana Univ regional campus). Any of MS major software is $5 per CD. I can get any of the OSs (except 2000 Server), Office, Visual Studio. Indiana University has paid X amount of dollars to Microsoft for what equates to a site license. For this fee, IU gets the right to produce copies of the disks that they sell to students, staff, and faculty for the $5 fee (which is suppose to cover "costs"). For that $5 fee, I can install that copy of the OS on any number of computers that I personally own.

        It is not predatory pricing since I am in reality paying more for the license in the way of technology fees, tuition, etc. You as a taxpayer (if you were in Indiana) also foot a small portion of the bill through taxes. It's not much different the some vendor charging $5 for a copy of Red Hat, Suse, Debian, or Mandrake. They are not charging for the OS (usually), but rather the time and expense of producing the CDs, advertising, mailing, packaging, whatever.

    • Re:$6 a copy (Score:2, Insightful)

      by benjamindees ( 441808 )
      Continuing to keep people using your products is not a sign of a monopoly

      Preventing people from using other products by giving yours away for less than cost when you are a monopoly, is an abuse of monopoly power and illegal.

      • The marginal cost of copying software is damn near zero. When the development cost is amortized across several versions and related R&D or products, how do you decide whether the vendor is fairly recouping their cost or just poorly predicted the price elasticity of demand for it?
    • Well, not exactly. That's about $6 for each license, not a legal copy. Schools agreements for enterprise (that just means lots of licenses) pay per seat. Student and teacher licenses are included in this, esp through Microsoft agreements. Your school has found a way to pass some of this cost onto the students. Technically it's yours to use for school purposes only while you are student.

      Overall, how do these tests work? Microsoft often gives for free or very steep discounts 25 licenses - enough to equip a lab - of their OS, CALs, and Office products, and of course the testing modules. But then they whack the school system with their Educational license agreements which cover every desktop and server - often for $$$ into the tens of thousands.

      Pretty clever marketing - give it for free and make the schools feel like they are getting something important, build a new customer base at the same time, then charge thousands on the other side and most folks don't even realize what hit them.
      • Well, not exactly. That's about $6 for each license, not a legal copy. Schools agreements for enterprise (that just means lots of licenses) pay per seat. Student and teacher licenses are included in this, esp through Microsoft agreements. Your school has found a way to pass some of this cost onto the students. Technically it's yours to use for school purposes only while you are student.


        I don't know how it is in other schools, but at IU [indiana.edu], what you say isn't true. I pay $5 per CD (usually, patches and suplementary CDs usually are given away for free when the main disks are purchased.) for MS software. This cost is suppose to be for the cost to press the CDs, print up documentation, record keeping for the program, etc. It is not for the license for the disk. IU purchases what equates to a site license for the major MS software (OSs, Office, Visual Studio). They (IU and regional campuses) can then install that software on any number of computers that are school owned and they produce disks to distribute to staff, students, and faculty. I can then buy the disks and install them on any number of computers that I own. When I leave school, I own a legal license for those copies that I currently have posession of. I can even get a real license on requests when I leave school. See more here [indiana.edu].

  • It all starts with CS101 (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AnamanFan ( 314677 ) <anamanfan AT everythingafter DOT net> on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:39AM (#4439668) Homepage
    I believe the root of this question lays in a general education requirements that a number of colleges/universities.

    Lets say a university wants to employ a basic computing skills class for the general education requirements. So, you make a CS101 class. But, how do you create a lesson plan for this class? How do you teach word processing on a computer that's inexpensive from installation to support? Not to mention having the attempt for the class material to be applicable in the lives of the student.

    As much as I would like to see a more competitive/open environment, the open source products of word processing and operating systems in general are not at that level yet, and certainly not in the past 10+ years. The only real player has been Microsoft with Corel/WordPerfect in a very distant 2nd.

    At this point in time it makes economical and educational sense to go with MS products. However, this could change if a number of things happen, which I personally would like to see.
    • But, how do you create a lesson plan for this class? How do you teach word processing on a computer that's inexpensive from installation to support? Not to mention having the attempt for the class material to be applicable in the lives of the student.

      True, it's only been recently, but for a BASIC 101 type class, a low-end Linux workstation with OpenOffice should be more then sufficient.

      For wordprocessing, you want to teach how to enter data, change fonts, do envelopes, make table-based data, spellcheck, edit a new document, do basic revision checking and maybe a couple other things. OO has all that. The CONCEPTS will transfer just fine to MS Word or WP or whatever. The exact keystrokes may change, but that's not the purpose of a 'basic computing skills' class, is it? Or is it concepts with some hands-on demonstrations.

      A basic RedHat box with KDE would be sufficient for teaching concepts (here's a file, here's how to edit it, here's how to send an email, etc). Yes, it's not outlook/office, but the concepts are the same. Actually, teaching both in the same class would be the most beneficial, because people would more easily see - in a structured environment - how similar basic GUI systems and concepts are.

      The basic RedHat system, with machine and monitor, can be had for under $400/seat. True, it's not the $6 for MSOffice someone else mentioned, but it's still a cost-effective solution if you want to offer a general computer skills class.
      • Actually, teaching both in the same class would be the most beneficial, because people would more easily see - in a structured environment - how similar basic GUI systems and concepts are.

        You've never taught an intro class, have you?

        Showing multiple ways to do the same thing is the last thing you want to do, unless you really want to spend an entire class period explaining renaming files to the middle-aged-former-secretary-going-back-to-school who won't let you get a word in on any other topic until she has a single, inflexible, step-by-step procedure in her notes, including exact keystrokes (and no shorthand, either; she has to write something like "Press the mouse button on the right hand side of the mouse and click on Rename...", and the rest of the class is just going to have to wait until she's finished).

        That isn't exclusive to intro classes, either. I've got 3 of those people in the VB.NET class I'm taking this semester, and it has Intro to Computing and Intro to Programming as prereqs, so you'd think they would have learned something by this point.

  • What should they be teaching? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by irc.goatse.cx troll ( 593289 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:48AM (#4439684) Journal
    " I get all my work done with vim in a console. I am by no means even a power *NIX user, and it concerns me that I get the feeling that they think I'm doing something they couldn't do."

    (I'm quoting a post but not replying to it, because this is on a different topic, but Im quoting for relevance)
    It's sad to see them teach students how to use a product, instead of how to use the language.
    I think they should spend the first month on enviroments, 2 weeks to learn vc++, a few days on pico, a week and some change on vi(only the basic movement/insertion/deletion, stuff vimtutor would show), and the rest on all the fun gcc options. Then the students would be able to code in most standard enviroments, and the rest of the time should be spent teaching the kids the actual language. The teacher shouldnt even care what editor you use, as long as you turn in working code.

    • GCC in schools (Score:3, Informative)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 )
      I have to agree.

      GCC is a much better tool than Visual Studio for most people.

      You could drop $100-$2000 on your development system for a product that's limited to few languages, doesn't support C anymore, and can't run anywhere but Windows, and has a UI that keeps changing, rendering old skills obsolete.

      You could also get a software package that's freely downloadable, supports lots of languages (and keeps getting more), and runs on just about every software package known to mankind.

      The choice seems pretty straightforward to me.
      • You could drop $100-$2000 on your development system for a product that's limited to few languages, doesn't support C anymore, and can't run anywhere but Windows, and has a UI that keeps changing, rendering old skills obsolete.

        1. If you're that worried about the UI changing, use the command-line compile tools.

        2. It does support C. Try compiling some C some time and see.

        3. Yes, I don't know about you, but it's really important that my compiler run on an Acorn Archimedes. That, after all, is my day-to-day workstation -- I only use a PC on my coffee breaks.

        • 1. Which are about a tenth as nice as the GNU toolset.

          2. Try compiling some *modern* C some time and see. MS has publically stated that they're abandoning C, and aren't updating their compilers to support new additions to the language -- just C++.

          3. Maybe you don't care about a non-Windows platform at the minute. However, Linux, at least, is a major player in the server space, and there's a pretty reasonably expectation that at least Linux is going to be a reasonable chunk of the desktop market in five years. Now, it's true that may be among poorer nations and companies not willing to spend lots of money, so you're looking at a less lucrative market, but it's something to consider, not just to laugh off.
    • I think the guy I'm taking C from has it right. He doesn't waste any class time on environments, he only deals with C code, which he writes on the whiteboard. He's familiar with most environments, and if you want to ask him a question about yours after class he can usually answer it, even down to specific library quirks. He doesn't require that your code compile on any specific compiler, but he does require that you tell him what compiler you're using.

      IMHO, a teacher who requires a specific compiler shouldn't be teaching that language, because they obviously don't know it.

  • Insulted? (Score:3, Funny)

    by portege00 ( 110414 ) <[npbradshaw] [at] [yahoo.com]> on Sunday October 13, 2002 @01:58AM (#4439708) Homepage
    "...but feel insulted that I have to take them in order to take more advanced UNIX courses."

    Bah ha ha! So you see, Unix truly is better than Windows. They save the best for last. Windows is like the crappy job you take and keep for a reference before going onto the really good one.

    On a side note, my university gave out copies of WinXP for free to computer science/computer engineering majors. Microsoft PAID groupd of students who headed a group called MSUG (MicroSoft Users Group) to brainwash people into being Microsoft junkies. They got an assist by handing out free copies of Win2K, Office, Visual Studio, etc. Digital crack.
  • At a certain College located in McKeesport, PA that I attend, I just a few weeks ago, for the first time Ever, decided to go into and look at the "New" lab. One of the first thing I noticed upon entering was a big old black banner in the back, "Where do you want to go today?".......

    The network is exclusivly Windows, nothing else, anywhere. But the courses themselves are not MS specific except one that will reqire me to show the ability to make a web page, and we are only allowed to use FrontPage, but then again, the same class forces us to use Eudora for our college email account. My CS Course for this semester requires us to use not VC++, but Borland Turbo C++ for windows 4.5 (I think).

    And then there was the software contract. Up untill about the end of August, you could get any piece of MS software free, and now, it's not free anymore, but we still fly their banner in the most high tech newest lab in the place....

  • Unix too (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ClosedSource ( 238333 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @02:55AM (#4439820)
    Universities have been promoting Unix for many years and prior to Linux were probably the single most important factor keeping it alive.

    Just as Unix and its derivatives have played a prominent role in industry on the server, MS OS's obviously have played a prominent role on the desktop. If a university wants to prepare students for the real world, it needs to include all the most important OS's, languages, etc. Instructors should point out the strengths and weaknesses of each and let the students draw their own conclusions.
  • People really do need to be able to work with Windows. Sure, unices may be better operating systems at the technical level and it's endearing that you're rooting for the underdog, but Windows is what is out there. When Unix is running on a significant percentage of home computers and a larger percentage of office machines, universities will be teaching that. They're teaching what's useful, it has nothing to do with Microsoft playing Big Brother.

  • Speaking of MS being lame, we have some new quotes (Score:5, Funny)

    by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @04:28AM (#4440006) Journal
    Thanks to Balmer and our good Linux-friendly friend news.com [com.com], we have more wonderful Microsoft quotes [com.com].

    Balmer Quote 1: The truth is, we probably made (.Net) a little harder to understand than we (should) have.

    Balmer Quote 2 (in which Balmer makes it quite plain that he's going to drive home the point that the marketroids prepped him with -- that XML is Good, money should be spent on XML, and .Net is obviously XML): Well, the benefit of .Net is XML...We take the XML connection and we extended it across both client and server -- while other guys are only server-focused. It's about connecting people to people, people to information, businesses to businesses, businesses to information, and so on. That is the benefit....it's a set of code we ship that...people use to help build applications that process XML information....it's getting to be conventional wisdom that the future of IT is around XML. But I'd like conventional wisdom to be that XML brings benefits today, and the best way to participate in the XML revolution -- in terms of user benefits and productivity -- is Visual Studio.Net.

    Balmer Quote 3 (in which Balmer shows himself happily living in his own world): A Yankee Group study says 40 percent of corporations surveyed were looking at operating system alternatives such as Linux, in part because of the Microsoft licensing program. But I think they are okay with where they are.

    Balmer Quote 4: The Linux [platform] hardly runs any applications, except a bunch of shareware stuff that's not very good.

    Balmer Quote 5: There has yet to be any innovation, new features or new capabilities out of the Linux platform. [Me -- so how the hell has *Microsoft* pushed technology forward?] But I don't think anyone should expect anything innovative coming out of that [Linux] world.

    Balmer Quote 6: And we are going to have as or more a community as Linux does. [Me -- in your wet dreams, Balmer]

    Balmer Quote 7 (in which Balmer discusses the buggy nature of Windows): ...next major Windows release, called Longhorn. I'm sure we will have some service packs in between.

  • My impressions @ SFU (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Screaming Lunatic ( 526975 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @05:43AM (#4440079) Homepage
    [disclaimer] Saturday night. Just got home from bar. Pissed out of my mind. [/disclaimer]

    I just recently graduated from the Comp Sci department at SFU [www.sfu.ca]. My impression: The business faculty is very pro-Microsoft. Everything is done using Word, PPT, IE, etc. The problem is that the people making the decisions have gained their skills on MS platforms.

    A good chunk (probably about 2/3) of the professors in the Comp Sci department despise MS products and are *nix guys. In other terms, prefer to use *nix on their primary machine. But, and a big but, a lot of stuff that is taught that is platform specific, is taught with respect to MS products. For example, GUI development is taught using MFC.

    And that is the problem. When general computing methodolgies/techniques are taught, they apply to *nix platforms without much tinkering. But when you try to apply techniques to MS platforms, there is a poop-load of exceptions that you have to be aware of.

    For example:

    This how you code in C++, but this is how VC++ implements for-scoping.

    These are the techniques to design "good" user interfaces, but this is how you would implement them in Windows.

    There is a lot of pressure from industry for students to learn to be efficient on the Windows platform and other "high demand" tools/methodoligies (such as Java/extreme programming/XML/etc). What usually happens is that companies screen based on "buzz words". And there is a lot of pressure from industry to produce graduates that have training in licking the flavour of the month, rather than having solid understanding of Comp Sci principles. They seem to want MCSEs, that can get the particular task done now and do not care about the future; rather than people who understand general principles that will apply for decades to come.

    For example, a local Vancouver company [cough]Crystal Decisions[/cough] did not want to hire me for a position because I had not programmed in Java. Despite the fact that I have been writing Object-Oriented C++ code for 5+ years and that I'm currently teaching my sister Java who is taking CS101.

    The problem is that CS departments are very heavily influenced by industry. And who is the biggest heavy-weight in industry? (That question was rhetorical).

  • Well.. University of Helsinki uses Linux for some odd reason.. :D

    A really sneaky way to go about solving the problem follows:

    1. Get the IT management at the school proclaim they're going open source.
    2. Wait for MS to panic and flood the school with free stuff.
    3. Pick the good MS stuff and use OSS (or Free Software for anyone who cares) anyway.
    4. You have profited!!!


    E
  • I'm using Gnome 1.4 for a VLSI Layout class and Win XP for Signal Processing. Here's what I've noticed...

    Gnome:

    1) Recently Gnome suddenly started refusing to start up. I needed to log into a Windows machine and blow away "~/.gnome*". Bye bye settings. Figuring that out and then setting everything up again killed a LOT of time. It was infuriating.

    2) No decent text editor. gedit stinks. Today, Kate is just now becoming usable. It'll take two more years for today's version to get onto the lab computers.

    3) No word processor. AbiWord is only just now becoming usable. OpenOffice is becoming decent too, but holy cow is it big and slow. Again, two years until today's versions are in the labs.

    4) Motif apps. Mathematica and Matlab are big, slow (try resizing a window), clunky (careful of the numlock key), and ugly. Mouse wheel doesn't work. They are painful to use.

    5) Can't copy and paste pictures. Think I'm kidding? Try writing a paper where you need to save all 45 Matlab plots to disk and manually open them in AbiWord. It takes forever.

    XP: I use Matlab and Word and I've never had a single issue. Well, the XP UI is one of the most hideous things I've ever seen, but it seems to work well enough.

    I run Linux exclusively at home. At school, though, it is time-consuming and hard to use. Right now, Microsoft deserves to dominate the computer labs. I just need to get my work done ASAP, not fiddle with .login files and corrupt desktop settings. XP provides this, Linux doesn't. I believe this will change in a few years...
    • Recently Gnome suddenly started refusing to start up. Have you tried Enlightenment [enlightenment.org]? You can install it (like anything else) in your home directory, without root access, by conifurging it with something like --prefix=/home/dozer/enlightenment and adding the executable to your .xinitrc or .xsession file. Luckily with Linux you have an alternative to using mem-heavy UI's like KDE and GNOME, while still getting the benefits from having their libraries installed. (You can still run programs that require Gnome, without running the Gnome environment). As a side note, you probably could have used Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to kill the X server and edit those files on the console rather than using a M$ machine to do it ;) No decent text editor. gedit stinks. Download NEdit [nedit.org]. You get syntax highlighting, line numbers, and a whole bunch of other nifty stuff without feeling "bloated" while using it. It even comes precompiled for most platforms ;) Motif apps. Mathematica and Matlab are big, slow ... The rest of the world agrees. Write a letter to Wolfram. =P No word processor. ...Can't copy and paste pictures. Sounds like it's time to take an hour and learn LaTeX [latex-project.org]. Afterwords, you'll never want to use a word processor or paste pictures again. Additionally, your term papers and reports will be written faster and look more professional. An added benefit comes when you consider that most science journals would require you to submit a paper in LaTeX, so it's better to learn *now* than *later* after you've written your 100+ page thesis in M$ Word and have to transfer all of it.

  • At Georgia Tech... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anglophile ( 587676 )
    At Georgia Tech Microsoft has recently begun a deal where any student who has taken the third CS class or higher automatically gets free access to a website where he can download two copies of each of the latest Windows OSes and many fully licensed copies of developer software. As far as I know this is free to school and comes with no strings attached. Smart move by Microsoft I say, as this seemed much more attractive and simple than the deals mentioned in some of the above posts.

    -Miles Stoudenmire

  • Two questions, a thousand answers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by OldMiner ( 589872 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @10:26PM (#4443138) Journal

    There are really two important questions here:

    1. Are colleges using Microsoft software in their labs?
    2. Are colleges teaching their students to use Microsoft products?

    The first question seems to about whether colleges are getting people comfortable with Microsoft products, or accomodating them if they are already comfortable. OTOH, the second question is a matter of whether courses specifically teach skills in a Microsoft-centric fashion.

    Realistically, I can't speak to a trend, but I can tell you how things are at my school. I attend an engineering college [mines.edu]. Obviously, this makes us not big on CS; therefore, we tend to deploy Windows on most of our open labs. It's what most students and professors are comfortable with when they arrive. Therefore, a lot of non-CS students see a lot of Windows. At least at first.

    But simultaneously there is an open Linux lab in which anyone can get accounts with non-too-shabby computers. Almost no one but Geophysics uses it, but they require its use for some courses. And all of the nice physics labs for 3rd year and higher physics majors run Redhat. They're set up with Linux because all junior level and above reports must be done in LaTeX.

    Everyone is required to take at least one programming course, which normally winds up being Fortran or C/C++ for everyone. Chemical engineers can take VB. C/C++ is taught almost exclusively on IRIX boxes. Only recently have we had a teacher that even required any exposure to visual studio for that class -- or any low-to-mid level CS class.

    As far as CS students go, all high-level CS classes tend to either be a Unix-environment or a 'use any environment available on campus'. Most teaching is mathematically and theoretically centered. I can't count how many times teachers have said in lecture that we're being taught important theory and not too much application because we might as well go to a trade school if we just want to learn current applications.

    What about non-CS required courses? We're all required to take a lot of general courses, one of which (EPICS) includes required use of Microsoft Project. We're all required to take a year of calculus-based physics whose labs were taught in additional Redhat labs. They're not Windows labs.

    Myself, I find this pretty mixed. There are a lot of *nix machines on campus but they're frequently not obvious until you get in a class that requires them or you simply seek them out. We more-or-less force some cross-platform experience on all majors. But if someone wants to be all Microsoft, he can probably get by like that if he doesn't mind taking alternate courses and debating with his counselor. And the same can be done for someone who wants to go all Linux.

    My experience is, despite heavy Microsoft pressure, we're a rather OS-balanced school. I can only hope all schools are along the same lines.

    Oh, and how do I know we have heavy Microsoft pressure?

    Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:49:43 -0700

    From: <x-xxxxx@microsoft.com>
    To: xxxxx@mines.edu
    Subject: Opportunity

    My name is xxxxx xxxxx and I am representing Microsoft and their Student Representative Program. We are looking for one qualified student in good standing that will be representing Microsoft and their latest .NET Technologies on campus. The student would be hired as a part-time employee (10-15 hours per week) of xxxxxxxx for the fall and spring academic year. http://www.microsoft.com/net/

    Requirements include:
    * Candidates that are using Microsoft technologies already, not necessarily the new .NET technologies.
    * Candidates with a "B" GPA or above.
    * Experience speaking to peers and large groups
    * Involved in outside activities related to their major (ideally holding a position such as President within the club or organization)
    * Need to be very dedicated, outgoing and energized

    Ideally we are looking for current Junior students that could possibly maintain the program for two years, however sophomores and graduate would be great candidates as well. We will have phone interviews from now until Thursday, October 10th, preferably with faculty-recommended students that have the dedication and enthusiasm to represent the latest Microsoft .NET technologies. The chosen student with then be flown to the Microsoft campus in Redmond, Washington for the weekend of October 18th-20th for training.

    I've attached a copy of the job description/posting. Please let me know what you feel would be the best way to locate potentially qualified candidates for the program. If you could post the job opening on the bulletin board that would be fantastic.

    <<Student Representative JD.doc>>
    Thank you for your time.

    Regards,

    Just a hunch.

  • Windows rules in computers that people see. It does not rule the important systems that are needed to get things done. There companies like Sun (unix), IBM (mainframe, As/400, RS/6000, x86) rule. I've been in many big computer labs, and the only windows machines sit on the admin's desk where someone sits and makes sure the important machines are still running.

    It is always a difficult battle convincing people that Windows has not won the battle. Windows won the desktop (but faces compititon from Macs, with KDE and Gnome starting to come on strong). In the backroom Unix is king with various other OSes there too (VMS, OS/390, AS/400 [whatever that is called], along with windows) In embedded systems vxWorks is king, but many have a custom designed OS that does as little as nessicary to get the job done and is not in the way the rest of the time.

    There is more than the desktop to comtpuer programing. In fact you could argue that the future of programing is not on the desktop where most products are mature (few people need more than word97...), which isn't to say that there is no need for future development.

  • SAM [course.com] comes with the textbooks, and it's that simple. My college, STCC [tn.edu], has adopted the course.com suite of textbooks full-force. Of the two computer related classes I'm taking this semester, both of them use textbooks which are tied into course.com. Both of them require the "Student Data Files" which course.com offers, and both courses are dependent upon the files made available by course.com.

    Yet for some strange reason, only one of the classes does its tests via SAM at course.com and additionally via a program called ExamView. The class in which SAM and ExamView are required is called "Intro to Microcomputers" (heh, I graduate this semester, I've gone through 4 C/C++ classes and a Java class, I just never took this class 'till now). The VB class I'm taking doesn't require either SAM or ExamView; tests in that class are given in the traditional manner, part written and part "do it on the computer and turn in the floppy."

    Are students being indoctrinated into the Microsoft culture? Are students being forced to use Windows for learning, forced to use Windows for programming (all my C classes were done in either Turbo C or MS VC++), forced to use Windows for testing? Yes, absolutely. Does that bother me? Not really; I run Windows and MacOS and FreeBSD and I'm damn sure savvy enough after all this time to know which I prefer. I was more offended at the fact that SAM requires registration. In other words, course.com and God-knows-who it's associated with now knows:
    • My full name
    • My email address - required as our username
    • Which IT-related class(es) I'm taking
    • The grades I make on every test for those classes
    I don't much mind the fact that the tests are being taken on Windows computers using Windows software. In fact, I prefer the SAM/ExamView tests to written tests; and SAM is actually a pretty nice package. Not only can it ask questions, it can emulate any Windows application, e.g. in my Intro class it emulates Word/Excel/Powerpoint in order to test students on whether or not they can complete the necessary tasks. It truly is a neat application and I can easily see how the college was sold on it.

    What bothers me is that, in the case of SAM, the exams are taken, scored, and graded on course.com's server... Which means that course.com knows my name and my grades. There was a EULA presented when signing up for a SAM login, but it's not like I had a choice as to whether to accept or reject the license. If I want to pass the class, I have to take the tests via SAM. Which leaves me no other choice but to enter my real information and accept the EULA.

    course.com knows what I'm making on my tests, and I have no idea what the fuck they're doing with that knowledge. That, and only that, is what really ticks me off; even if I am acing 'em. My grades should be between me and my college, a third party shouldn't enter into the equation.

    Shaun
    • You may want to talk to a lawyer. I am not an education law specialist, but I do know there is a federal statute that covers educational information. It is called the Federal Family Educational Right to Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA) and strictly controls access to educational information such as grades. You can read the statute here [cornell.edu] and the regulations here [cornell.edu].

  • Perhaps support and ease of use come into play (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Billly Gates ( 198444 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @07:50AM (#4444723) Journal
    I fully understand the requirement for windows in entry level cs courses. Its what the students use and its easier to use and support. If they promote linux then they have to support it and put up with students asking linux related rather then programming related questions. This is true if they have trouble setting things. With vc they can learn straight programming and not vim, emacs, and gdb at the same time.

    Also not everyone needs to learn unix. Alot of chemistry and mechanical engineering majors take cs-101 and intro to programming courses. %90 of them will use Windows immediatly after college. Autocad, pro-engineer and mathmatica is what the engineers will use. Except for mathmatica which has a unix port, its all windows based.

    Learning basic structures and algorithims can easily be done on any platform. Its the more advanced cs oriented courses later on that go into OS theory and security where unix maybe a better platform to learn on. I agree on this approach since unix is advanced and will be appreciated more after you have some basic understanding of computer science.

    I however surely hope there are no universities out there that only teach everything on Windows for cs majors all the way to their senior year. That would be bad but all of the schools I know of do not do this.

    I use W2k for basic c++ and perl programming for night school. I wanted to learn on linux but couldn't and for the stuff I am doing it really doesn't matter.

    I think more mindshare will be for unix since all of the students will be used to windows limitations and will relize what unix can do after using windows for their first year or two. If they see an old shell, abunch of awkward editors, and no ide's, they will think that unix is an outdated and inferior OS.

    This is what Microsoft use to think of unix since all of their developers have only used dos and windows for so many years. They do not like to hire anyone over 30 unless its for a senior level position. Its now haunting them since many burned out IT departments are now buying more sun's and linux boxes because of the flexibility that the command prompt and tools give them. My guess is they will make the command prompt better and the programs more scriptable in the future to compete agaisnt unix and linux.

  • Our school does have an agreement with Microsoft and runs Windows for everything, even mission critical backend systems. All students/faculty/staff are offered Microsoft products at a higly reduced price. All students are furnished with a laptop as part of tuition that comes with XP and Office XP. The only machines on campus that are not Windows are in the Mac lab in the communications department. This semester the school decided that a few of the comm. students could try out having I-books instead of Thinkpads, but we have yet to see if that will continue.

    All students are required to take two semesters of computer applications classes that teach the use of the Office suite of products. I don't think this is completely a bad thing. Most all of those students will need to be able to use MS Office programs at some point in their lives.

    Our CIS department requires those two basic Windows classes, and then moves on into other things, begining with C++. The only exposure our students ever have to an alternate OS is in one class where they learn to install and use Linux (Redhat 7.3 currently). The sys admin freaked out when she noticed them on the network and confronted the prof. Our head of the CIS department is being pressured to move to using .net.

    A Linux box detected on the network (in the dorms for example)is grounds for losing your computer privileges. Any box hooked up besides your provided laptop is actually.

    I have been fighting tooth and nail for almost two years to be able to use something besides MS products on the web server. It has been a struggle just to use PHP, which works fine on Windows. In one mediated argument, the IT person told our managers that anything that isn't MS can basically majorly disrupt the network. She said that software such as PHP is unsupported and created by God knows who and can't be used or trusted without security risk. She says the same and worse of anything else that isn't a MS product. Trying to argue this is futile, since all the managers know and love Windows and can't see anything wrong with having a homogenous network. The admin said in a staff forum (where people are often asked to share about their jobs) that of the 13 servers she runs, she always has a problem to fix on one of them or one of them down. She said this as a justification of her workload, but I think its a sad insight into just how often those Windows boxes crash.

    In other words, our school might as well be owned by Microsoft. Our use of their products is so complete and ingrained into the minds of the IT staff that to even mention anything else is sinful.
  • I was hired to tune Sendmail for a College in NYC that had pretty much HP/UX systems and Caldera Linux Boxes...so I was tuning sendmail, when an announcement was made that Microsoft "took the president out to dinner" and will give them all new MS products for free. The IT Manager was jumping for joy! MS Office, WIn2k Advanced server PLUS hardware, Visual Stuido, Exchnage, etc all for free. But, the rule was they couldnt use anything else on their network. They had to throw out their HP/UX servers and their Linux servers. 100% MS of nothing...guess what they chose........

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