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Is Remote Keyless Entry Any Safer Than It Used to Be? 138

Posted by Cliff from the hoping-for-improvement dept.
Clue4All asks: "The time has come for me to start looking for a new car to buy after the winter snows have come and gone. Every car I'm interested in seems to come standard with Remote Keyless Entry with all their models. Has this technology become safer since I last bought a car? I remember seeing a news story years ago about burglars receiving signals used to open garage doors, and Google turned up articles like this from a few years ago. Apparently, some keyless entry systems now use "code hopping," which changes the signal after each use, making copying the signals pretty hard. I've requested information from a few car companies as to whether they employ such technology, what are your findings? Are these safe? I ask because I live in an apartment complex, not that I'd worry about anyone living around me doing something like this, but the thought is still there."
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Is Remote Keyless Entry Any Safer Than It Used to Be? More

Is Remote Keyless Entry Any Safer Than It Used to Be?

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  • Try asking (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cdrudge ( 68377 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @08:44AM (#4615797) Homepage
    Seriously, ask the dealer. If the dealer doesn't know, make them find out or call the manufacturer. Someone should be able to tell you what type of security they utilize.

    If they wanted to get into your car, which do you think they are going to do: Spend the time/money on a code grabber and wait for you to drive up, park, and get your code...or just break your window...or try the car next to yours that is unlocked.
    • I've requested information from a few car companies as to whether they employ such technology...
      i don't know if he's been asking the manufacturers themselves, or the dealers, but his post clearly states that he has been asking.

    • Yeah, I trust car salesmen. What about you?

      "yeah this here vee-hickle has 129 bit RAS Cryptology you'll never have someone copy the code."

      Either way, I bet I can pop your car doors open in a few minutes with a coat hanger, just imagine if I had a slim jims and the right tools like a tow truck driver!
    • Whatever you do don't trust anyone involved with actually selling you the car, dealer, mechanic or manufacturar. A recent BBC watchdog program had a story on new volkswagens wich can be easily openend with a special tool. (It opens all the electric windows making access for theft from the car extremely easy. without the mess of having to break a window) They weren't to clear on the details of the tool, prob not to give anyone ideas, but they demonstrated it and several dealers said they knew about it on hidden camera.

      The point is that the official line is that nothing was wrong with the cars and that they had no information on it. Car manufacturars are well known for lying about their products. There are laws concerning roadsafety, but anti-theft is a wasteland.

      As for the post this is commented to. The other methods draw attentention. If they have youre code then to the rest of the world, and for that matter youre security system they look like the owners. Even dutch police agents are suspicious about a car with a broken window driving around.

    • If you have a car where the keys have a chip in them, you have another layer of security. Better yet, if you have an electric fuel pump and you park in a high risk area, pull the fuse!

  • Not relevant (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kj0n ( 245572 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @08:49AM (#4615824)
    First, to answer your question: remote keyless entry has become a lot safer in the last years.

    However, this is not so relevant. When people want to steal your car, they will steal it. No anti-theft system is completely safe. Even when it is impossible to open your car, they will simply wait for you to open it. This means that the best solution is to discourage people from stealing your car. Buy a model that is not too attractive. Don't leave your car in unsafe neighbourhoods.

    One last suggestion: if someone shows up and threatens you, just give him the keys. Your life is worth much more than your car.
    • HEHE my father is a retired locksmith, that was his general advice to anyone who stated that their car was frequently broken into and or stolen. The responce was always in the line of that they were too good for a cheap looking car.

    • Re:Not relevant (Score:3, Insightful)

      by leviramsey ( 248057 )
      Buy a model that is not too attractive

      Of course, buying a run-of-the mill car is no guarantee. There is a class of thief who specializes in stealing Camrys, Accords, Chevy Malibus, and other similarly unattractive cars that no one would buy unless forced to. There are a couple of reasons for the thief to specialize in these:

      • Many on the road. If someone reports a green Camry stolen, it's not like you can really put the cops on alert for such a vehicle.
      • Large market for parts. This thief will quickly sell the car to a chop shop which likes the idea that, based on the number of cars out there, somebody will be willing to buy a hugely discounted part for their car.

      • Re:Not relevant (Score:3, Informative)

        by kiwimate ( 458274 )
        True. I used to own a white Mazda Familia wagon, fairly anonymous, no extras at all except for air conditioning. I bought it because it was ideal for my needs at the time (low mileage, only a couple of years old, excellent condition, and I needed the luggage capacity of a wagon). It was stolen one night (Christmas Day, actually), and the police found it a couple of weeks later. They told me that from evidence found in the car it was apparent it had been used in a couple of jewellery store burglaries, and that meant they would've picked my car precisely because it was anonymous. So, not the sort of vehicle to rate a second glance from the kids who want a joy-ride, but ideal for thief transit to be dumped later on -- neither flashy nor ratty enough to draw attention.
      • While the technology has gotten better I don't think its realy that big of a deal. I've worked a number of car thefts and auto burglary (I'm a cop) and have never seen a car stolen in this manner. Most of the time people leave them unlocked or someone smashes the window. Apartments are bad for this since there are always people about and there is nothing to prevent people from walking up and checking out your vehicle. Even if I was to drive by and see someone in the area I have nothing to base a stop on - I can't tell a resident of the apartment complex coming home from work at 2am from a burglar as I go driving by. Compare this to a house: If someone is standing next to the car in the driveway at 2am and all the lights in the house are off I start to have something to go up and talk to this person about.

        As for vehicle BOLOs - they don't do much. A few months ago we had a murder in an adjecent town and they put out a BOLO for a blue Nissan P/U. The next day we stopped blue Nissan P/U's all day long, and had dozens of 911 calls about them but didn't find the murder suspects that way.

        On an complete side note: better than ripping the codes off a lot of electronics are poorly shielded these days. I used know of a particular 1998 car model that could be unlocked by my 6m rig (52.525 MHz, 60W narrow band FM) from about 25-30 feet away. More often car alarms go off when I transmit near them.
        • About the apartment vs. house thing - I understand completely.

          I live in a complex and my car was broken into - I came outside to find the driver side door not completely closed and the trunk not completely closed.. no evidence of slim-jimming (dust on the weatherstripping was undisturbed and the strip wasn't streched, no scratches on the glass) - only the driver side door was unlocked so it's unlikely that power locks were used to get in (unless they bothered to lock the passenger door before they left). The funny thing is that they took 2 power inverters and a wireless keyboard, but they left behind the keyboard RECIEVER and the IN-CAR COMPUTER SYSTEM (worth more than everything else put together).

          After thinking about it, I realized just how un-suspicious the whole break-in would have looked, due to the fact that it's an apartment complex. People come and go all night, and to see somebody getting stuff out of a car looks completely normal.

          I need an alarm.
    • This means that the best solution is to discourage people from stealing your car. Buy a model that is not too attractive. Don't leave your car in unsafe neighbourhoods.

      And buy a steering wheel lock, like the Club. I use one even though I have a car alarm, on the principle it's a fairly visible extra deterrent which will mean more work for the thief. A professional who really wants my car will go for it anyway, but I'm more concerned about discouraging the casual thief.

      • Re:Not relevant (Score:4, Informative)

        by qengho ( 54305 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @12:27PM (#4617166)

        buy a steering wheel lock, like the Club

        Those are completely useless. Yeah, they're case-hardened steel, but your steering wheel isn't. Thieves simply cut a chunk out of the wheel and remove the club.

        • >Thieves simply cut a chunk out of the wheel and remove the club.

          Awesome idea alert:

          New model of club: The wheel club. Covers the entire steering wheel with hardened steel...

          I should have patented that before I said it, shouldn't I?
        • Still it slows them down. It is impossible to prevent a car from beling stolen ever. The poitn of an alarm, The club and other devices is to jsut slwo them down until someone else notices (and scared them away) or they get tired (and give up).

          • Still it slows them down

            For the five seconds it takes them to snip the steering wheel with a bolt cutter.

            • Your wrong.... it will take him at least 2 minutes.. youc an onyl way it off or use a torch. I tried cutting those babies with a bolt cutter.. no luck.

              • I tried cutting those babies with a bolt cutter.. no luck.

                If you read my post carefully, you'll note that the bolt cutters are to be used on the steering wheel, not the Club. Like I said, five seconds.

                • I was talking about the steering wheel. Have you ever tried in person? I have. On a 1988 Blazer and on a 1992 Maxima. It took me about 8 minutes with a hacksaw. I do not know where you got your 5 second BS, but the fact is that the steering wheel is made out of re-enforced steel. How the hell do you think you can cut it with 5 seconds?? If it was just plastic ok... but steel? You ever tried using on a hacksaw on a pad lock? Ok same thing but the metal is thicker.
                  • Steering wheels on all modern cars are soft to reduce chest injuries during accidents. Also I saw a neat little toy that a repo man had made, it consisted of two clamps that attached to either side of the club and a screw, he rotated the large arm on the screw twice and the club shattered in half, took about 10 seconds. I have also seen live demonstrations where a car thief would show a news reporter how quickly they could hack through the steering wheel, average time: 15 seconds. The fact is, stealing a car is becoming much harder because many cars now come with a chip in the key that interacts with the electronic ignition system so the car won't start even if they pop the lock. Look for carjackings to rise. Also more serious crooks now get a tow truck and tow the stolen car to the chop shop, no one even looks twice at a tow truck towing a car with an alarm going off.
              • Haven't you seen that informercial for the AutoLock, or whatever it's called -- the one that locks on your brake or clutch pedal? They show that a guy with a small hacksaw can cut through the steering wheel and remove the Club in about 3 seconds. Now, I'm not saying anyone should draw any conclusions of fact from an infomercial. But consider that steering wheels are necessarily soft, as is the dashboard and all other objects you are likely to come into contact with in an accident -- certainly more vulnerable than the metal of the club.

            • I've never tried it, but I've heard that a strong person wearing gloves can brace their foot on the steering wheel, pull on the club, and break it at it's weakest point: one of the detents that the lock latches into.

              At those points, it's probably about half the diameter of the rest of the club.

          • Actually, the real point of all these devices is to get the thief to move on to an easier car to steal, like, say, the one next to yours! ;-)
        • Hey,

          Thieves simply cut a chunk out of the wheel and remove the club.

          That tends to hurt the resale value a bit.

          Over here in the UK, we have a product called 'Disclock' (or something) which is a big hardened steel disk, which completely covers your steering wheel, locking all around it.

          My uncle put one on his hours-old new car... then found he'd given in the keys when he part-exchanged his old car. It took well over an hour to hacksaw it off.

          So, there are some decent products out there.

          Cheers,

          Michael
      • The club is useless.
        My mom had a club on her car on a Camry. They cut the steering wheel, removed the club, then stole the airbag. After that she bought a cap that you put on steering wheel and put on the club through the two holes they provide. It makes it harder to cut the steering wheel.

        Now, only if they have things to prevent the stealing of side view mirrors.
        • Get a good steering wheel. I just spent about $50 on a solid steering wheel that would at least take an extra few minutes to cut through. (Not for this reason though, I just needed a new wheel.) If you're already spending money on an alarm and a club, just spend a few dollars more and get a wheel that, while it could still be cut, won't be cut very easily or at all quickly. Dave
    • One last suggestion: if someone shows up and threatens you, just give him the keys. Your life is worth much more than your car.

      One other potentially helpful suggestion: get Lojack [lojack.com]. It won't do a thing to keep your car from getting stolen, but it can be a big help in getting it back if it is stolen. Allegedly Lojack is enough of a threat to the kind of professional thief who targets common model cars that they've started leaving the cars to sit for a couple of days before stripping them for parts so that their whole operation won't be caught when the police use it to trace the car.

    • It's hard to avoid unsafe neighborhoods if you happen to LIVE in one!

  • Saturns have it (Score:2, Informative)

    by Samus ( 1382 )
    My wife's Saturn is a 97 and it uses code hopping. In fact the car gets pissed off if you only use the key to open the door if the alarm has been armed.

    • Re:Saturns have it (Score:2, Interesting)

      by nelsonal ( 549144 )
      I have an 1997 Integra and it will let you use the key to open the driver's door after locking with the remote, but heaven help you if you try the trunk, or unlock all the doors from the inside after using only the key. Also, it seems to unlock all 4 doors even though it's only supposed to open the driver's door if you press it once.
      • i know on the 98/99 alero you could program the remote to open in different ways. i think the options were for open only the driver's door or open all the doors. i don't remember how to program it (it was a rental), but it was buried deep in the manual somewhere.
        • Thnks for the tip. I bought it used from a fleet, and they just randomly stuffed the manual in a car. I got the TL manual, but perhaps the programming is the same.
          • i believe you could also program how it would alert you when you activated the alarm. there was a silent lights flashing option, a honk the horn option, and i think a honk the horn and flash the lights option. i think there was also a way to change what doors unlocked when you turned the key in the driver's door.

  • Ask for battery time while you're at it. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TripleA ( 232889 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @08:53AM (#4615832) Homepage
    Don't forget to ask for battery time when you are at it. If the batteries run out quick, you will get very frustrated.
    • I wondered about this and BMWs... it turns out that they have a rechargable battery of some sort (maybe a supercap, but I'm not sure - just hope it's long life) that charges while the key is in the ignition. It says if you have a key that you don't use, charge it on a long drive about once a year. I imagine other manufacturers have a similar technique.
      • Just thought of a cool idea but I'm too lazy to patent it so anyone who wants it feel free. To greatly extend the battery life of small devices with buttons simply have the button push a pizoelectric generator as well as the trigger switch. This way a large part of the energy can be obtained from the user initiating the action.
    • I drive a 2001 Saturn SW2, which has a little keyfob-style clicker common to most GM vehicles. The battery in it has lasted for about 25 months so far. The range has dropped slightly, but it's still ~20', which is fine for me.

      The battery is easily replaceable and widely available. Of course, I'm single and lazy, so I will probably just switch to the keyfob for the 2nd set of keys if this one runs out. ;-)

  • Some do...but most don't... (Score:4, Informative)

    by OneFix ( 18661 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @09:04AM (#4615860)
    Anything installed from the factory is bound to be the cheapest possible component. AudioVox makes alot of these factory units (the car companies don't actually make their own car alarms)...But it depends on what kind of alarm is being installed...if it's sold for under $40k, most likely it doesn't have code hopping...so do what I did and buy a vehicle without an alarm and simply have a good one installed by a local shop that warantees their service (no crap from Wal-Mart or Best Buy).

    It's true that modern security system installation is nothing but a connection kit...some of em don't even have to drill holes...but they can still skrew it up if they don't know what they're doing...

    In most cases you're talking about $99 for a factory installed alarm. And a good unit from Viper (500ESP+) that will have the code hopping feature is gonna cost you at least $300. The other advantages of a GOOD alarm system is that you can install modules like power window/sunroof and remote start (for automatics).

    Anyhow, it's not really smart to rely on those factory alarms for security.

    • Re:Some do...but most don't...RTFM! (Score:4, Informative)

      by blastedtokyo ( 540215 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @09:58AM (#4616060)
      Any proof to back up what you say? I opened up my $17K 1997 Subaru Outback Sport remote to find code hopping in it.

      Actually, I felt kinda dumb when I opened the manual and it described how the code hopping work and what the chances are that you would hit another keyless remote with the exact same signature.

      I've seen the same description in other japanese autos manuals and remotes. (haven't played with the american domestics for a while though)

    • In most cases you're talking about $99 for a factory installed alarm. And a good unit from Viper (500ESP+) that will have the code hopping feature is gonna cost you at least $300. The other advantages of a GOOD alarm system is that you can install modules like power window/sunroof and remote start (for automatics).

      You're full of it. Code hopping is probably cheaper to implement these days than non. There are chipsets (Microchip's HCS series, for example) which do all the hard work for you. My CDN$90 (US$40) remote starter uses code hopping, for Christ's sake.

  • Multiple Remotes? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dschuetz ( 10924 ) <.gro.tensad. .ta. .divad.> on Thursday November 07, 2002 @09:27AM (#4615927)
    Here's a question I've never seen addressed:

    What if you have multiple remotes?

    If, for example, you've got two cars, each with their own garage door opener remote, and the remote uses code hopping, how does the 2nd remote know what code to use after the last time the 1st remote was used?

    (obviously, it can't "know," which is the problem).

    Do these things use some kind of challenge/response system, with a different challenge each time?

    Or are you simply stuck with only being able to use one remote for any given device? (door, car, etc.)

    • Re:Multiple Remotes? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by erlenic ( 95003 )
      It probably has different sets of codes for each remote. So remote #1 opens the door on 5, then the remote and door switch to 8 for the next time. At the same time, the door and remote #2 are expecting to use code 13 between the two of them.
      • It probably has different sets of codes for each remote.

        A perfectly reasonable and extremely obvious solution. So, naturally, I missed it. :)

        Though this doesn't address what happens when a transmission gets missed (from interference or distance), but another reply covered that one pretty well...

        • Re:Multiple Remotes? (Score:2, Informative)

          by tzanger ( 1575 )

          Though this doesn't address what happens when a transmission gets missed (from interference or distance), but another reply covered that one pretty well...

          It looks for codes that are n codes away from the next desired, as well. So if you hit the button n+1 times away from the receiver, you're buggered unless you can reset them both to code 0, but I can personally attest to this working. (I have a button-happy 18-month-old son).

        • They could just use a numbered list of codes. The car asks the remote "What's code number 12?" and the car replies with: ********

    • Re:Multiple Remotes? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Matt_Bennett ( 79107 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @10:49AM (#4616403) Homepage Journal
      What if you have multiple remotes?

      I read some technical literature on code-hopping remotes- you can have multiple remotes and so forth. A code hopping remote is a one-way device- it only transmits, and it transmits a different code each time you press the button. The reciever knows what the code was the last time you pressed the button, so it knows what the next code should be (they use very, very long pseudo-random sequences).

      So what happens if you press the remote when you're too far away, or your 3 year old finds it in the car and presses it merrily for a few miles until he gets bored? If the current code is code N, the next to be transmitted is code N+1, and the next that the reciever will key on will be N+1 to some range of N+X where X is pretty large, but still far smaller than Y, the total number of different codes.

      In addition to keying on something in the next group of X codes, another safeguard thats used is to key on two successive remote-keys- lets say my transmitter is out of sequence, say by A - the reciever is looking for a code between N+1 and N+X- it recieves the code N+A (where N+1N+AN+X) It won't key on that, but if the next code it recieves is N+A+1, it knows that it got the right sequence, and will only open after the next keypress.

      For multiple remotes, it adds a separate domain to key upon(say, Y to Y+N)- slightly less secure, but of course the more keys there are for any door, the less secure it is.
    • Well, this probably isn't how they do it, but you could always do it the same was as this device [hpc.mil] (keep a clock and compute a unique hash based on the time).
    • They do allow for multiple remotes. My garage door opener, which uses the same technology, will allow for up to seven remotes. When you get a new remote, you must sync it with the opener unit before it will work by pressing button combinations on both the opener and the remote. Car alarms often work in a similar fashion.
    • On my parent's suburban you can add new remotes by holding down both buttons on a alredy coded remote till the door locks cycle then do the same with the new remote.

      My el chepo $59 Bulldog alarm can add new remotes as well, i forget how, but the instructions has the info.

      What I have seen lately that looks kind of interesting is no door handles! Instead the alarm system has a relay which pops the door lock. I saw this on a 90's chevy pickup at a walmart. I laughed when I realized there was no handle. Check some import car magazines, they have that gear.

      Something else I have seen, some bmw that didnt have keylocks, had a handle but the keylock was replaced with a pair of lights and seemingly some type of swipe detector like Mobil uses for their speedpass system.

      Now what I wish for is longer reaching remote and a car with enough brains to drive over and pick me up at the door!

      DRACO-

  • The question is... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by joto ( 134244 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @09:38AM (#4615965)
    The question is: "What does your insurance company say?" Because in the end, people will find a way to steal your car if they want to.

    Secondly, I doubt anything new could be much more unsafe than a mechanical key system. It takes me about 5 minutes to get into an older car, and a professional burglar will probably be driving it away faster than it takes you to find the right key.

    If you have an alarm, again it will take me approximately 5 minutes to disable (about 7 seconds to disable the horn), and the professional burglar will probably do it a lot faster (since he has done it so many times before, and also because he doesn't worry too much about electrical insulation, etc...)

    If you are really worried about people using a programmable IR remote to steal your car, you should shift the area of worry. I'll be happy to line up 20 people in less than half-an-hour who could easily steal your car without such advanced equipment.

    Here's what you really should be worried about: Is my keyless system expensive enough for someone to steal it? Will someone steal my alarm? Is my car-stereo visible outside, and expensive enough to be worth the trouble? Do I usually keep my wallet in the front seat? Is my car much more expensive than my neighbours or workmates? Etc...

    In the end, it turns out insurance companies have done most of this thinking already, so you could just ask them.

    • Re:The question is... (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      How do you start the engine without a key with the correct resistor to get past the engine immobilizer? There's millions of possible codes, and I have yet to see any devices that will take the place of a key and cycle through them.
      • I own a GM car equipped with this feature. AFAIK, there are only 7 possible resistor combinations (per the manual for the car, and per the sears key shop -- when I needed to get a key made, they measured the resistance through the "chip" and cut another key with the same "chip" in it...)

        So there's not much to that. The only issue is, is if you try to start the car with the wrong value, it will disable the car for 5 minutes. So, you could steal the car on the first shot, or the max time would be 35 minutes, start to finish.... detering a thief for even 5 minutes, though, would probably work.

        And, oh yes, it's also a pain when the car doesn't recognize your key (happened to me once...) because, as you know, keys have a pretty rough life. Keeping the "contacts" on the pellet clean isn't really a thought for me all the time....
    • Is my keyless system expensive enough for someone to steal it? Will someone steal my alarm? Is my car-stereo visible outside, and expensive enough to be worth the trouble? Do I usually keep my wallet in the front seat? Is my car much more expensive than my neighbors or workmates? Etc...

      My 1992 Saturn was stolen about 3 months ago. There was a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee with leather sitting next to it. The cops said they picked my car because it had no alarm system and so it was easier to steal.

      Buy the alarm that will give YOU the best peace of mind. That is the true value of an alarm system.
      • Sorry about your luck. They must have either been hard up thieves or just wanted a joy ride. I mean really can a 10 year old saturn be worth much at all? Even for parts they could have moved on to something a bit more rare. I would think a foreign car would fetch more for parts than a domestic.
        • Saturns are notoriously easy to steal. The thieves were also just a bunch of dumbest teens that got caught.

          But... my car is actually really nice for its age. Only 80,000 miles and it runs like a dream... looks like a damn good too. Also, the car was recovered and they only took a few things from it (didn't hit anything either).

          Later

      • My 1992 Saturn was stolen about 3 months ago. There was a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee with leather sitting next to it. The cops said they picked my car because it had no alarm system and so it was easier to steal.

        Dark green '94 Grand Cherokee with light brown leather? That'd be mine. :-)

        Mind you, if you'd have looked at the passenger door you'd see where some dumbass with a slide hammer knocked the ring off the door lock and used a screwdriver to gain entry. At 2am in my driveway in a sleepy little rural Ontario town. The alarm went off and they left empty-handed.

  • Security through obscurity (Score:5, Informative)

    by Sherloqq ( 577391 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @09:38AM (#4615968)
    Although I usually do not recommend this approach, consider obtaining security through obscurity.

    Factory-installed keyless entry / remote starter systems all come from the same company, so if you get a Dodge Intrepid with an installed system, it will be identical to every other Dodge Intrepid's system. If you're afraid of someone scanning the remote's codes to gain access to your car, consider getting an aftermarket system. They're abundant in today's DYI market, and every automotive store carries a few different brands. Most of them are likely to have varying circuitry, varying frequencies, varying communication protocols, which make it that much harder and impractical for a would-be thief to get a scanner for (instead, get a scanner that caters to a wider "audience", if you will).

    Naturally, a thief bent on stealing your car might get frustrated with not being able to crack your remote's code, perhaps to the point of using a jimmy [lockpickers.com] and scratching the precious paint job, or even using a blunt object [unr.edu] and simply breaking the glass. But at least your car will still be there :)

    Personally, I use a remote system from ICDynamics. It gives me remote start, keyless entry and trunk release options, and that's good enough for me. Gets good range, too (over 300ft), so I can start my car up from the comfort of my home on days like today (a few degrees below freezing).

    No, I do not work for them :) I'm just a happy customer.

    • Re:Security through obscurity (Score:4, Funny)

      by anthony_dipierro ( 543308 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @12:59PM (#4617445) Journal

      Although I usually do not recommend this approach, consider obtaining security through obscurity.

      Heh, for some reason I thought you were going to suggest taking off the Dodge logos and replacing them with Chevy logos.

      If you're afraid of someone scanning the remote's codes to gain access to your car, consider getting an aftermarket system.

      Unless you plan on turning off the beep and/or the light flash when you unlock your car this doesn't seem like a very useful plan. Most thieves using this method will just stand in the middle of the parking lot and hit the button. I.E. they're probably not going to be targetting a single car.

      • Most thieves using this method will just stand in the middle of the parking lot and hit the button. I.E. they're probably not going to be targetting a single car.

        Exactly. If they have a 31337 h4x0r3d remote for scanning / opening doors to Fords/Mercurys/Lincolns (all manufactured by the same company), only the Fords, Mercurys and Lincolns will unlock their doors. Given the choice of an unlocked Ford vs. a still-locked Pontiac with a remote operating on a different (not-apparently-obbious-since-it's-aftermarket) frequency, the thief will prolly go for the Ford. At first. Then he'll smash the Pontiac's window, because the driver left their purse/wallet/portable cd player/radar detector/cb radio in the car.

        Damn. I gotta take out the cb radio out of my car.
    • If you're afraid of someone scanning the remote's codes to gain access to your car, consider getting an aftermarket system.
      If you're into building microcontroller based projects, using PICs, AVRs, or whatever, you could also consider rolling your own for the same reason. I've thought about building one using a two-way challenge/response scheme with a large number of combinations and non-obvious relationship, and an intentionally oddball communications protocol. No other like it in existence.

      On the other hand, my vehicle is a 1986 GMC Safari van with bad paint, several dents, and 205,000 miles, so maybe not worth that much effort. Though I'd still be pissed if someone took it.
      • On the other hand, my vehicle is a 1986 GMC Safari van with bad paint, several dents, and 205,000 miles, so maybe not worth that much effort. Though I'd still be pissed if someone took it.

        Wanna know something? Depending on where you live, your van might get stolen anyway -- not for parts, not for a joy ride, but for a drug dealer's use. Drug dealers usually don't meddle in the business of stealing cars, so they hire "professionals" to do their job for them -- meaning they have to pay for the vehicle and the effort. Since a vehicle will be taken away by police if it was used in the process of selling drugs, drug dealers 1) don't want to lose too much money; 2) want a non-descript, inconspicuous vehicle to begin with anyway, so they ask for older, less expensive vehicles.

        Depending on where you live, your van may not be as safe as you'd like it to be :)

        I've lived just outside of West Philly for several years. I know.
  • Economically, you'll save a lot of money if you buy a car at this time of year (at least in the US). Car sales are much lower in the November/December timeframe, and prices are lower to try and drive up sales. Dealers also have the incentive to clear their lots of the previous model year for the new one.

    Granted, at least in the Northern US, there are good reasons to not buy a car just before winter begins (salt on the roads (due to snow) rusting out a new frame being the main one)

  • Nope. (Score:4, Funny)

    by DeLabarre ( 236800 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @11:01AM (#4616485)
    Not only is the remote keyless entry unsafe, but driving cars is inherently unsafe. You could be struck and killed. Stay off the roads. Hide in your basement. Wear tinfoil.

  • Why worry about it? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by danbeck ( 5706 )
    Your big fear in life should not be whether a techo-cracker-thief is going to intercept your private wireless communications with your vehicle.

    If your car is stolen, you insurance company will take care of it. That's why you pay them so much money each month. You can just buy a new one. Consider that you are helping the economy and the thousands of assembly line workers in the car industry by buying cars often.

    I have an ask slashdot question myself: do your inboxes not have any better "Ask Slashdot how to wipe my ass" questions than this?

    Boy, that will get my post modded to troll for sure. (tee, hee hee)

    • Re:Why worry about it? (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Are you kidding? This is the only worthwhile Ask Slashdot I've seen in a long time. Wireless security is a huge issue, not just because of the broken WEP.
    • "Ask Slashdot how to wipe my ass"

      Just because you'd rather pay your insurance company to wipe your ass doesn't mean everyone else does.

  • Remote Keyless Entry is Convenience, not Security (Score:3, Informative)

    by mr_teem ( 126142 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @12:15PM (#4617075) Journal

    The Remote Keyless Entry systems that automobile manufacturers install as standard equipment are there for convenience not for any added security over and above the key/ignition electromechanical interlocks and the standard alarm systems. Those impediments and deterrents to theft would be there regardless of the little remote dongle. (As several others have pointed out, a thief is going to get your car if he wants it bad enough.)

    Frankly, my RKE dongle can be a pain in the ass. Depending on how it happens to twist in my pocket against the rest of the keychain, I can set off the panic button by turning just the right way.

    • The Remote Keyless Entry systems that automobile manufacturers install as standard equipment are there for convenience not for any added security over and above the key/ignition electromechanical interlocks and the standard alarm systems.

      Of course. My question was in no way related to other security devices of the vehicle, solely if using such a device on a fixed frequency was going to INCREASE security risks (it seems like wireless always is). But I guess the discussion goes whichever way it wants, no big deal.
      • Would you mind telling me what the object was that you put on that page that makes IE crash? Just satisfying a curiosity.

  • Weakest Link (Score:4, Insightful)

    by GoRK ( 10018 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @12:21PM (#4617125) Homepage Journal
    Look, as everybody else has said, if someone's going to steal your car, they're going to steal it. If they're going to break into it, they're going to break into it.

    To get into the car, the thief has several options: Intercept, record and duplicate the keyless entry's signal; jimmy the door lock by yanking the lock wire or an interior switch (very hard on most new cars, but still possible on a great many); go after the keyed lock on the door itself with a pick/what have you; or break the window. Anyway, the point is that even if the thief has all the gear to get into your car via the keyless entry system, it's not going to be very effective to use versus any of the other methods. It's the same with robbing houses. Too many people leave the door between the garage and the house unlocked, and the garage doors operate on a (generally much less secure than car) wireless RF remote. ... But you don't see burglers breaking into houses via the garage door very often. It's just easier for them to crowbar through the back door or find a house with an open window.

    Anyway, what it boiled down to for me was that:
    1) pushing a button to unlock the car is a hell of a lot quicker/easier than turning a key.
    2) I am an idiot and forget where I parked a lot. I can make the car beep at me, and it helps.
    3) Having a car alarm of some sort brings down my car insurance a lot... i guess mainly because of my age and the car i drive .. but no matter what it will usually knock your rate down a little bit.

    So anyway, I'd say go for it, but make sure that the system has some sort of alarm feature such as a glass break mic or ignition cutoff that would classify it as a tiny bit more than a remote lock/unlock button, or it's not going to help you with your insurance.

    ~GoRK

    • Look, as everybody else has said, if someone's going to steal your car, they're going to steal it. If they're going to break into it, they're going to break into it.

      Yeah, and it was just as untrue then as it is now. Obviously a thief who's intent on stealing your car could do it, but most thieves are not that stubborn. If the thief presses a button and the car door opens and the car turns on, you're much more likely to have your car stolen.

      Having a car alarm of some sort brings down my car insurance a lot... i guess mainly because of my age and the car i drive

      I could be wrong, but intuition suggests that your age has nothing to do with the discount for having a car alarm, since it would lower your comprehensive rather than your liability/collision. But maybe the theory is that young people park in more dangerous locations... Possible I guess.

    • Look, as everybody else has said, if someone's going to steal your car, they're going to steal it. If they're going to break into it, they're going to break into it.

      That's what I say. That's why I have my truck rigged with C4 tied to the custom made car alarm based off an old 486 portable computer motherboard. It plays a recorded MP3 of me laughing and then BOOM.

      Admittedly I'm a little worried about liability. But I figure I'll just claim that it was some assassin trying to rig my car to explode.

  • While your at it (Score:2, Interesting)

    by rerunn ( 181278 )
    Alot of the makers now use imobilizer chips in their keys. Without this embedded chip, the car wont start even if the key matches.

    Great idea, until you want another key made. Mr Keyman at your local mall will happilly grind you a matching key without the chip thus making the 4 bucks you just spent useful for only opening the doors. Now the kicker -- you need to go to the dealer to get a real key and get reamed in the ass for at least 50 bucks.

    If your getting a new car, try to get the dealer to throw in a extra key or two.

    good luck.
  • Realistically, you are not going to see any increased security risk with a keyless entry system.

    There are probaly a couple of hundred different codes transmitted over frequencies that will vary from car to car. I used to drive a very common car (a Ford Explorer) and never ran into a situation where my keyless remote opened up doors on another car.

    Contrast this to keys. There are usually only about 15 different key combinations per model for many cars. To combat the problem of theives getting their hands on the keys to steal the car, most manufacturers have added an RFID token to car keys. If you start to open a door with a copied key, the ignition is disabled.

    I suppose if you knew all the different frequencies used by the keyless transmitters, you could sit in busy parking lots and gather the lock and unlock codes. You still would not have the ignition key or the RFID of the igniton key.

    But you would need to have alot of money to build the equipment, a good background in electronics, and a smart brain in your head. (Traits generally not carried by car theives) Who would go to all of this trouble to steal a stereo?? Especially when you can gain phyiscal access to the car in less than 45 seconds w/o any technical stuff!

    Also, as a side note, large apartment complexes are wonderlands for thieves of all sorts. A transient population with relatively high income equals alot of unreported petty crime. Those cheap sliding glass doors make entry into the house trivial.

    • This is just not true. A standard Ford key has 5 sections, each of which can have 6 levels of thickness, so the total number of different keys is 7776 + the key has integrated immobilizer chip with A LOT of combinations possible for it.

      Btw. Entering a car without a key is usually not a problem, starting it without a key can be a little bit more tricky.

  • Go "old school"? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cr0sh ( 43134 ) on Thursday November 07, 2002 @02:11PM (#4618129) Homepage
    As others have mentioned, locks and alarms of any kind exist only to keep honest people honest. A true thief is not going to care.

    With that said, you might try doing the smart thing - don't buy a car someone would want to steal. Remember, a vehicle is simply a way to get you and your stuff from point A to point B - the minute the vehicle seems like something that gives you an "image", you are lost. That isn't to say that you need to get a clunker or something, just don't buy for image. Furthermore, the best advice I was ever given as a kid was "Buy a vehicle that will for for you, instead of one where you work for it". My vehicle is a small pickup - should I lose my job as a programmer, I still have a vehicle I could (in theory) load up some lawn equipment in and do some yard work for cash until I get back on my feet, or deliver newspapers, or phone books, or haul trash, or throw wire boxes in and install network cabling, etc - hard to do that with another vehicle, but maybe your needs or work are different.

    One note: buying a used car may be a better thing - my small truck is pre-1997, which I think is the year they went to the ODB-II system. This is the "On Board Diagnostic" system used by the vehicle's engine computer - it also reports back things typically using a reader. Here is the clincher - on ODB-I systems, you can read the codes yourself, most of the time doing nothing more than stick a jumper in a plug and watching a blinking light - other times by keying the starter switch in a certain pattern and watching the engine light blink. ODB-II systems require you to buy a reader, and unless you buy an expensive reader, you can only read one model vehicle at a time. Still, you have to spend some bucks for the reader. Another thing is that on ODB-II systems when you go get smog checked, if they are using the system, they simply plug in, and tell you if you pass or not. My wife recently had this done on her 1997 Neon, and she passed, but if she hadn't, the paper wouldn't have said where the issue was, and we would have probably had to take it to a mechanic to get it fixed - at least when you can see what emmisions are out of whack, you have an idea where to start (ie, O2 sensor, etc). Don't even get me started on ODB-III (which seems near Orwellian in scope).

    Another thing would be to see if they will eliminate these "mandatory" systems that simply add to the cost of a new car and take it off the price. Save a little money.

    Finally, instead of an expensive system, add an "old school" system - a second switch. Wire it inline with the starter switch. If you want, you can wire up a high-current contact relay in the system instead, and hook that up to the relay in the starter, so that current has to pass through both set of contacts in order for the starter to turn over. Hide the switch somewhere in the automobile where a thief typically won't look - under the dash is bad, but in the glove box, a cubby hole, under the seat, in the trunk - all good spots. Add a well visible blinking red LED to complete the system. Total cost in parts will be a few bucks, but would probably frustrate the hell out of a potential thief (of course, it might tick him off so bad that he destroys the interior of the car or something, and it wouldn't stop him from stealing the radio or anything - which is a good reason to keep the factory radio).

    Ok, you may not like any of my answers, but my point still stands - a vehicle is just something to get you and your stuff from point A to point B. Whatever you do, don't get into the "buy a new car every three years" cycle - this is just a waste. Pay off your car, keep up its maintenance, and the thing should last you a looong time - my truck currently 8 years old, and has 115,000 miles on it - the only thing I am needing replacement on is a new fan belt and new tires, which will probably happen sometime this winter. I replace the oil and filter on it every 3000 miles (btw, get a "permanent" air-filter as soon as you buy the car - it will cost more, but in the long run you will save money on air-filter replacements after about 8-10 oil changes), replace the shocks when needed, flush the tranny and radiator every now-and-then, change the spark plugs and wires as needed, belts, hoses, diff gear oil (nasty stuff) - every 60,000 miles get the timing belt/chain looked at and replaced if needed (timing chains can go longer in between checks - see your manual - but they still need to be looked after). If you treat everything right, there is no reason your car shouldn't last for 200,000 miles or more.

    Myself, I plan on keeping my truck until the engine dies - then if the engine dies, I might look into getting a new engine (has to be cheaper than a brand new truck, and better than a used truck that I don't know how it was maintained)...

    • You can go longer than 3000 miles without an oil change. Consumer Reports investigated this and found 5000 to be just fine. Of course, Jiffy Lube will never tell you that.
      • actually, check your car's owners manual. i know every chevy i've owned has 3000 miles listed for industrial use (police cars, taxi's, etc), but 6000 miles for normal use. jiffy lube of course picks 3000...
        • Yeah, I found it strange that my Honda Civic's manual said 7,500, but the Honda dealer (who was in the oil change business) said 3,000.

          • Do remember that Honda is in the business of selling cars, so they may have a motivation to overestimate how long you can go between changes. This lets them make the maintenance costs look lower and the car wear out faster so that you'll want to buy a new one sooner. I also know that my Honda's operating manual specifies 3,750 miles if you regularly:

            • Do a lot of stop and go driving
            • Drive on dirt roads
            • Drive when the temperature is above 90 F (32 C)
            • Drive when the temperature is below freezing, or
            • Live in Canada

            That covers a lot common driving circumstances, so it's quite likely that most people would have to go for the shorter interval to keep in line with the manufacturer's recommendations.

      • I know you probably can, and there have been times when I have gone for 4000 or so between - still, doing it more often can't hurt, and might be better in order to flush out the contaminants (dirt, metal particles) in the engine, because you would be doing it more often, giving less time for the particles to do serious damage. Also, most people don't change their filter until an oil change - I would imagine just changing your filter would get you to 5000 or 6000 miles until the oil change, but if you leave in the filter, it won't do its job. Changing the oil is a quick and cheap thing to do, especially if you do it yourself.
      • Ford and most manufacturers recomend 5K, with cheap oilfilters and cheaper oil you may want to do it every 3K. My dad drives upwards of 70K miles a year and he only gets his oil changed about once a month. Of course during the first 3K miles on my new car I changed the oil 3 times, once at 100 miles, once at 1K miles, and once at 3K. The most engine wear by far happens in the first 1K miles, after that everything is going to mate well until the engine really starts to deteriorate.
    • Some folks like having brand-new cars. I've never been able to afford that, but a lot of folks I work with can. They buy a new car every 3 years because it's what they want, and they can do it without going broke. I can't really argue with them :)
    • I agree with most of what you said about the mechanics of cars, but there's one fundamental principal that hasn't been pointed out here: Car theft often doesn't have anything to do with the "stylishness" of your car. The most commonly stolen car in the United States for years has been the Honda Civic (or some similar class of car) because the parts are easilly sold on the black market. Almost all BMW owners are going to buy their parts exclusively from the dealer, it's only the owners of the cheapest cars that are going to look toward less "well established" sources for their replacement and modification parts. About OBD-II (it's OBD, not ODB): while the diagnostic system seems prohibitively expensive in the short term (from $200 - $500 depending on the number of vehicles it will work with and the complexity of the information you can retrieve) does actually give out quite a bit of information about your car. If it's failing emissions tests because of a faulty O2 sensor, that will definitely show up (in fact, a faulty O2 sensor on a 1997 Neon, and most other cars, will light up the Check Engine light). Eric P.S. I highly recommend that you and your wife join the Neon [neons.org] mailing list. I have found the folks on there to be quite car savvy and indeed very helpful in solving mechanical problems without spending too much (usually any) money.
  • One thing i'm looking into for the alarm on my truck... Someone tried to get my truck a couple months back, luckily the factory alarm had ignition kill, or they'd be gone, all I lost was the radio and had to get the window/ignition repaired.. but I didn't HEAR the alarm because i'm in a condo complex and too far from the truck.. CodeAlarm has one alarm for 350 which you can plug windows/doorlocks/ignition modules into it, ignition kill, AND the remote beeps when the alarm goes off.. this is a MAJOR plus if you're living in a place where you can't always hear your alarm.. also, when it goes off, you'll KNOW it's YOURS.. that's the one i'm going to pick up.

    -matt

  • Just use the key (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Tet ( 2721 ) <slashdot AT astradyne DOT co DOT uk> on Friday November 08, 2002 @01:14PM (#4626188) Homepage Journal
    Now call me old fashioned, but just because your car now comes with a remote, there's no reason to actually use it. Why not just continue using the key as normal? That way you're not exposed. Of course, that won't work with cars like the new Renault Laguna that are only accessible with the remote. But the vast majority (at least here in Europe) still have a key. Use it. The remote is a useless gimmick anyway.

    • Re:Just use the key (Score:3, Informative)

      by kill-hup ( 120930 )
      Here in the Northeast US, I love not dealing with frozen locks in the winter. It's quite nice to be able to just "click" open the doors without dealing with lock de-icer on particularly nasty days.
  • What is the best way to go about putting together an alarm system that's actually worth installing? I have a little sports car (240SX) that isn't worth much now but after various mods it'll be worth stealing. I had an IROC stolen from me in SF (go figure) with no theft coverage, good bye car. (IROCs are VERY frequently stolen there, wish I'd known that sooner.) I have hood locks on the car, so that makes it slightly more annoying to get into parts of it (no one is likely to steal my battery) and I'm contemplating a heavy steel plate to stop battery punches. What else can I do (besides the "hidden" kill switch, what an annoyance.)

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