Helping Your Ex-Employer? 878
ali_bubba asks: "A funny thing happened to me today, I have beeb unemployed for over 5 months, and all of a sudden my ex-Boss calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out, because her entire corporate LAN was down. Naturally, she knows that I'm kind person, but boy what attitude, so I did help her save the day. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me, (like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said) Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?" While I can understand that some people in this situation may harbor some ill will if place in this situation, it may behoove you to see this as an opportunity, and at the very least, an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company. It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide. For those who have been in this situation, how did you handle it? For others, if you were offered work from your old job, would you do it, and under what conditions would your perform said work?
Did they pay you? (Score:4, Informative)
They wouldn't provide you a company benefit you had for free now, believe me.
I would (Score:5, Informative)
You should have billed them. (Score:4, Informative)
I had already gotten a new job, but I was happy to work with em on an evening, for $70/hr
I mean, I would have at least charged them $10/hr. if I was you
Set Your Rate First (Score:5, Informative)
If you end up doing a lot of consulting work, you're going to have to get a business license and (depending on the state) get a tax ID number. Here's a pretty basic article [alistapart.com] about setting up a consulting business (although it's aimed at Web developers).
Passwords....... (Score:5, Informative)
I had one ex-employer, several months after I had quit, call me and ask for some passwords for their main development server... Mind you that half the office knew the passwords to the server, so its not like I was the only one.. There's no way I was going to say that I knew the passwords..
Re:whos bitch are you? (Score:5, Informative)
No, the court won't back him up. It's the same thing as your friend next door asking if you could take a look at what is wrong with his Windows 95 box. You can't retroactively charge a fee if you didn't agree on one up front. Whether you want to call it work done for good will, pro bono, volunteer or on spec, you can't charge unless both parties understand before hand there will be a charge or both parties agree afterwards there should be a charge.
Never work for a corporate entity free of consideration. If you're inexperienced, that consideration may just be "experience". If they laid you off, you may work on speculation that they will think of you first when they can start hiring again. But if you've been out of work for 5 months, I reccomend that consideration be cold hard cash.
Entitled to payment (Score:5, Informative)
If you come home and find that somebody mowed your lawn, you do not own them money because you have no relationship.
If you're at a strip club and you say "no thank you" to a lap dance but she performs anyway, you don't owe a thing because even though they performed a service for which you would normally expect payment, you expressly said you don't want a business relationship.
If you see a kid mowing your lawn and you wave to him (or otherwise prove you know he was doing it), you owe him money. By acknowledging that he was performing a service for which you would normally pay you agree to a business relationship.
If you send a reasonable invoice, you can expect to be paid.
Vanguard
Re:It seems quite common (Score:3, Informative)
You have it reversed
Saying no (Score:3, Informative)
- Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins. My personal favorite.
- Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Ury. The classic negotiation book.
- Start With No by Jim Camp. I haven't read this one, actually, but it sounds very on-topic.
Good luck. Find your strength.been there, done that, as a contractor. (Score:3, Informative)
If you are not on the books there could be legal issues if you make things worse, get hurt, etc.
Be sure that you are on the books as an employee/contractor/etc. whenever you do work for a proir company. This is for your protection as well as that of the employer.
It's all about being a professional. (Score:5, Informative)
If a former employer called me for help I would eveluate the request using the criterea:
1. Would helping my former employer violate any agreements I have signed with my current employer?
2. Did the former employer live up to their obligations to me as an employee, and treat me as a professional?
3. Did my employment contract with my former employer include any provision that I provide such services?
If 1&2 or 3 are satisfied I would fax the person a standard consulting contract with my hourly rates. On receipt of a signed contract I would then perform the requested services.
If not, I would decline.
Certainly! (Score:3, Informative)
But if they were going to cop an attitude with me, my minimum would be the equivalent of 2 months of my salary at the time I left the company. Half (non-refundable) to be paid up front, the other half to be paid when I've completed the job they brought me on to cover.
In ANY situation, make sure you get a P.O. from them before you show up to do the work!!! It should state what the work is that they expected you to accomplish. If they start asking you to do other things while you are there, tell them to fill out new P.O.'s for those tasks separately, and determine an hourly rate to be charged for every hour spent on those separate tasks. Those separate tasks should be started when you are done with the work paid for by the first P.O.
Be professional! Do the best work you can. Remember, at this point you are an independent contractor. Your work should stand as a testament of what you are capable of as a professional.
Last, when you're done, make sure you give a clear list of what you diagnosed and what you did to fix things. Make sure that the person who authorized the work signs off on it. Don't forget to make a copy! (using their copier, naturally!)
Re:It seems quite common (Score:3, Informative)
That seems... odd. When I was working independently doing contracting, it was a two-hour minimum, and most of my business came from four or five customers who repeatedly called back for more.
That is money, money, money (Score:2, Informative)
Business is Business (Score:2, Informative)
Of course you send a bill. And you get it paid (Score:5, Informative)
If they don't pay, you print "Past Due" on the bill next month, and send it again. Add 1.5% per month as a past due fee.
If they still don't pay after 90 days, you file a claim in small claims court. Very seldom do things reach that point. If you go to court, and you did the work, you'll get a judgement in your favor. Then either they pay, or you find out where their bank account is and get an order attaching it.
I have to tell this to some of my artists friends now and then. They're always doing little jobs for small businesses and not getting paid. All have been paid by the second invoice.
The one time I went back and did a job for a previous employer, I charged them about a thousand dollars for a weekend. And that was in the 1970s.
Surprisingly, you won't be hated for this. You'll b e respected.
Re:It's wasn't jesus who said that it was gandhi (Score:3, Informative)
From the Sermon on the Mount. Okay, smart guy?
Re:my story, or how I didn't get sued on my birthd (Score:2, Informative)
If they didn't pay you for the work, you don't owe them the finished product. You don't even need a lawyer to explain that to a judge.
Re:whos bitch are you? (Score:2, Informative)
Rule of thumb... (Score:5, Informative)
If X is the annual salary of someone who would be a full-time hire for the position, 1% of that per 8-hour day for consulting on a week-to-week basis, with an expected project length of about 6 months. That may sound high at first. But remember that the premium is paying:
- The employer half of social security
- other benefits (medical, dental, unemployment insurance,
- The administrative/paperwork time (either paying other people's salary and benefits or your downtime doing your own paperwork, which ISN'T billable hours once you've gotten beyond filling out a time sheet)
- Dead time between contracts.
- Time spent hunting for a new contract. (More dead time or a salesman's time).
- The consulting firm's profit (or your own increased dead-time when going it alone).
- A premium to the worker for the increased employment volatility.
For shorter term you charge higher, of course. You have to cover fixed costs from whatever you're paid.
Emergency service was going for $300/hour, four hours minimum, in the 1970s. Adjust that for inflation since then for an approximation of current rates. But this is a market issue so it's really "all the traffic will bear".
But this a former employer, and their mission-critical system is down. BIG difference. Company's in a bind, so the traffic will bear a lot. And it's a one-shot deal. So a big question is, what was the situation when you left.
1) You were a consultant hired to set up the system and go away.
It's warranty work. Same rate as before even for short-term. If it's only a couple hours or the crash was the fault of something you screwed up you might do it gratis.
2) you had been hired as an employee mainly to set up the system, with the expectation that you would be laid off when done.
Same as 1)
3) You left for a better offer they didn't match: Charge your new rate, or a short-term consulting rate based on it, if your current employment doesn't prohibit outside work. (If it does you should have asked, when signing, for a rider allowing such short-term moonlighting to cover trouble at the previous employer on a non-interference, non-compete basis.)
4) You parted on reasonably good terms because the previous company was in bad financial straits and couldn't afford you any more, though they really wanted to keep you.
More complicated. Do you still like the people? Are you still unemployed? Did they give you a good severance package? Do you expect them to try to rehire you if buisiness improves? Then fix it for them. If it's five-minutes of advice over the phone, maybe just do it gratis. But if you have to go over there, or login remotely, you GET PAID FOR YOUR TIME and you HAVE A WIRTTEN AGREEMENT before you start:
A) Charge a consulting rate based on your old salary, or
B) They can rehire you now - preferably for a minimum of another two weeks "in lieu of (another) notice" - and to be around to fix the fix.
C) If they're really hard up for cash they might swap you a laptop or something. (Note: You'll have to pay taxes on its market value.)
There are three important issues here:
i. You need a paper trail that you had permission to operate - that you were acting for them. Otherwise your ass is in a sling if they don't like your work, or something else goes wrong after they're gone, or if they're sued over something their system does and you're named in the suit.
ii. "A workman is worthy of his hire." You are a PROFESSIONAL. You trade your work for MONEY (or something else of value). This is true even if you and your boss are best buddies outside work.
They paid you while you were there. Then they decided they could do without you and let you go. Now they discover they were wrong - THEY, not YOU, must pay for the mistake. It is unfair to you and to all other professionals competing with you in the same market, for their bad decision to SAVE them money, COST you money, and COST the person they would have to hire to cover for you the opportunity.
III. There are LAWS about this: You did work for an employer. They must pay at least the minimum wage. You both must declare that you worked. If you're getting unemployment you lose it for that week. You're subject to significant criminal penalties if you lie about it. (And your permission paper, above, created a paper trail.)
4) They laid you off, terminated, or fired you under less than ideal conditions.
F**k 'em. One of two options here:
A) Let 'em stew in their own juice. They deserve it. And if you TRY to help 'em you can expect to be exploited repeatedly (while they laugh behind your back) and/or to be blamed for all screwups in the future - maybe in court, maybe on the grapevine, maybe when a prospective employer checks your references. (Just think: If you get work you won't be available to fix their problems, right?)
B) Find the highest amount a consulting firm would charge for emergency service to fix such a disaster for somebody they DON'T have a maintainence contract with. (Say it's $1,250/hour minimum four hours?) Now add a premium - because you're already an expert on their system and won't have to spend a half-day (or whatever) figuring it out. Then GET IT IN WRITING before you touch a thing. Include your time talking to them about getting it in writing and waiting for it to be keyed and printed up. Tell them up front that you WILL charge them for that time, so they should stop arguing and get the document ready.
Regardless of the situation, as a former employee you need the paper before you touch the system. (See 1. above.) Once the former boss finds out that the paper is needed (and what your terms are) you may find that the emergency isn't all that big after all. B-)
Re:whos bitch are you? (Score:5, Informative)
If somebody asks for your services in a context in which it would be normal to expect payment, and you provide those services, they must pay you whether they promised to do so or not. The amount they must pay you may be smaller than what you could have gotten with a contract - but they must pay "a reasonable sum" given the type of service performed, and in a case like this one, "a reasonable sum" might be calculated by reference to contracting rates for the same service.
In legal terminology, this payment is called a "quantum meruit"
IANALY,TINLA
Re:I've had worse (Score:2, Informative)
I had a client do that to me once, they called the cops and reported that I hacked their network after they stiffed me and didn't pay their bill (I did not hack their network).
I just showed the cops that I work on computers all day, every day, and if someone doesn't pay me, I don't bother to hack their boxes. The bottom line is that it's not worth my time. I do this for money, and if one client doesn't pay, I've got other clients waiting. I'm not going to waste hours hacking somebody's network when I could be getting paid to work on someone else's.
Of course, I was also able to show them the email where that same client had told me that they thought that their previous consultant had hacked their network, as well as my reply where I showed them that they were wrong, and in fact the problem that they thought was caused by "hacking" was actually caused the stupidity of one of their employees. And naturally, it was no surprise when the cops told me that the problem they were reporting that I caused, was pretty much identical to the problem they reported to me that the previous consultant had supposedly caused.
I have a strict policy, if I'm not getting paid, I don't touch their computers. The cops asked me if I *had* ever hacked anything, and I told them, "sure, but I sure as hell wouldn't do it without getting paid". They asked me what I had hacked. I showed them invoices for security audits that I had done for clients.
They dropped it.
This client actually called me a few months later wanting more work done. I told them that I would be willing to work for them again, but they would first have to pay the outstanding invoice, plus the 1.5%/month interest on the outstanding invoice. They said that was fine so I told them to send me a check, and when it had cleared I would make an appointment to come by their office to discuss their current needs.
After the check cleared I went to their office and let them tell me what they wanted. Then I told them what I wanted. I explained that due to the previous problems, I would only work on a retainer basis, where they had to pay in advance $2500 and I would work until that was used up, and then would stop working until they made another retainer payment.
They said that was fine, but they kept playing a game where they said the check was in the mail, and they needed me right now today, it was an emergency. I told them the check hadn't arrived (it hadn't) and until the retainer was paid, I was unwilling to begin work. I offered several times to come to their office to get the retainer check, but there was always an excuse of some sort, usually that the guy who signed the checks was out of town or something.
Ultimately, they never did pay the retainer, and I never did more work for them, but I did end up getting that last invoice paid.
I don't hold a grudge, business is business and many many businesses either pay every invoice late (which is why you charge interest on overdue invoices) or they don't pay at all, or more commonly, they pay everything late, and they never pay the last invoice after they decide they don't need you anymore. Late invoices don't bother me much, because it's a common thing, and let's so companies try to maximize cashflow by collecting as soon as they can, and paying as late as they can.
Ultimately, almost all of them will call for something, and I usually get paid...eventually.
What did you do? (Score:5, Informative)
I think the key is What did you do for them? answer simple "Do you remember how this worked?" type questions, or did you diagnose and fix the problem for them.
It is fair to call up with simple questions that are just a matter either "No, I don't recall that", or "It worked like this...". They must be simple questions where you do not have to think. (If you are doing noting else at the time you might hold the line while their experts think out the problem, but don't think for them).
If they want you to think out the problem, you need to charge for services. Be reasonable, but remember you know the system so you are better than the average expert off the street!
P.S. If you are asked simple questions DO NOT think for them. I have been gotten in trouble because of this. In that case I went to my mentor with a simple question that was in his area of expertise, and he took the problem from me, and then complained to the boss that I left all the work for him. (I was asked to leave over that issue, so of course I'm ticked)
I don't know where to start (Score:2, Informative)
However you might start here:
U.C.C. - ARTICLE 1- GENERAL PROVISIONShttp://members.cox.net/jwblack/rights
Re:Better not to burn bridges (Score:3, Informative)
i suspect most of us have done the same thing -- no matter the circumstances of your leaving, there is almost always some bit of information they call you for 3 months later. If it's just a call on the phone, i think it's only common decency (and being nice to your job references) to get them what they need.
It sounds like this is a very different case, though -- it isn't that they lost the password or forgot where he keeps the printer supplies -- the LAN crashed and they needed a technician to fix it. While his previous knowledge was no doubt helpful, it was not something only he could accomplish due to privleged information -- they could have called any technician and solved the problem. especially if it requires showing up in person, I don't think i would get involved in that without some sort of payment...
Re:How much? (Score:1, Informative)
However, MIT notwithstanding, I don't think it's true. The reason is is because I work there, right now, and I have never heard that story. There are a ton of institutional stories of varying levels of plausibility (including one about how back in the bad old days there was an employee whose job it was to "get things done" for the researchers, no questions asked, and another about autocannon rounds perforating a farmer's field during the development of the Vulcan) but I have never heard that one attribted to Steinmetz.
I have heard it -- but I usually hear it as something like "chalk mark - $1; knowing where to put it - $24,999". Isn't it even a Unix fortune?
I also don't think Steinmetz was ever a consultant, though I could be wrong on that. He was one of the chief GE researchers, who was more or less responsible for the creation of GE Research [ge.com]. I believe that the "canon" is that Edison courted him extensively and brought him on board to run the research group, or something to that effect.
Anyhoo, I think it was a good citation and an amusing story. I also don't mean to be a fact-nazi, but I don't think it's 100% true.
Re:my story, or how I didn't get sued on my birthd (Score:5, Informative)
If you feel you're being bullied -- your fax, your email, and your caller id are your friends. Lie if you have to, but never stay on the phone with a bully, do everything in writing. Written correspondence gives you a paper trail and it keeps you emotionally protected.
In your case, this lawyer would have sent you a letter stating that he was going to sue (and take everything you own). As a reply, you would have sent him back a registered letter, stating that his client still owed you X amount of dollars plus some reasonable late charges, and you would be happy to send him the code as soon as you got paid. At this point, the lawyer couldn't have done much. If he wrote back to you with some unreasonable demands, he would risk looking like a fool in front of the judge and even worst, he could even risk losing his license for breaking his professional code of conduct.
As to the original post, I have a similar advice. If you're not a good negotiator, cut the phone conversation short and fax (email is obviously not going to work if their network is down) a simple invoice for your work. It doesn't need to be elaborate, just something like "My services, to repair the LAN, are going to cost $1000 per day (minimum charge: one day). Will this work for you? " Date it and sign it and then wait for a response (and don't be bummed out if they refuse your offer, that's life).
Re:whos bitch are you? (Score:5, Informative)
So do I and yes, $60/hr is on the low end. I charge $75/hr and that is lower than my competition. CompUSA charges $79/hr and another company in my town charges $85/hr for PC work and $105/hr for LAN, whereas I charge a flat rate.
It makes perfect sense to bill them, and it also says, "Next time you call, there will be another bill."
I would also include a cover letter detailing the job that was done and making any formal recommendations about the state of their equipment (upgrades that would benefit them, outdated equipment that should be replaced, etc.). I normally use the cover letter for "warm fuzzies" but it is the perfect way to formalize a business relationship and declare that this is a for-pay service.
Maybe include "Thanks for your business" on the bottom of the invoice
Friends on the edge make it difficult to say no. (Score:2, Informative)
Having said that, I still call him a friend and he does have a lot of contacts in the industry that will help me in the future. So I do a bit of help here and there, including emergencies when the server goes down or he needs some DNS records changed etc.
In my previous 5 jobs, I have maintained a good friendship with my ex-employer and benefited from it.
The point I am trying to make is that the only thing that will benefit if you refuse your ex-employer is your ego and that is only in the short term. Being nice to your ex-employer can result in better references (ie: when you are looking for work) and perhaps even recommendations to industry friends. Think long term and get the most out of the situation.
Be Careful (Score:3, Informative)
Just say no and don't argue it (Score:3, Informative)
If you feel like you have to give everyone what they ask for (and if so, you're hardly alone), work on a simple, polite, unwavering response. Try "I'm sorry, I can't."
You'll often get people who try to argue it. Do not fall into their trap. It's the slippery slope to doing something you don't want to do.
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"Why not?" -or-
"But we're in trouble" -or-
"Can you just come in for an hour?"
If you say anything other than "I'm sorry, I can't", repeatedly and firmly, you're going down the slippery slope to doing something you don't want. Your ex-boss clearly has the balls to ask you for pro bono work, so she also probably will try to wear you down by arguing.
"But we're in trouble."
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"You were the one who set up the server!"
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"We have the report due tomorrow!"
"I'm sorry, I can't. I really have to go now. Good-bye. [click]"
Of course, feel free to hang up even earlier. Don't be rude, but don't allow the rudeness of others to trample on you.
Re:The old joke (Score:2, Informative)
Don't let the bastards walk over you. They have the cash, but as this incident clearly identifies, they need us to make more cash.
Know your rights, or you will have no rights.
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