Contractors on Salary? 100
An anonymous reader asks: "I recently got a new job (yes I am one of the lucky few) as a contract programmer. In part of the contract negotiations, the company would not allow me to work on an hourly rate, but instead placed me on salary. I have run into problems in the past where I have had to work an absurd number of hours as a programmer, and am curious where to draw the line. Obviously it is not ok to just leave at the end of an 8 hour shift if there is still lots to be done, but what if the poor project management is not your fault, and heavy deadlines are coming up? Can the company legally make you work 10-16 hour days? I would consider myself new to the industry but not unexperienced. At the company I used to work at, I worked crazy hours and didn't know it was OK to say that the hours are too much. What do you all think?"
You probably shouldn't waste time (Score:1, Funny)
Wait, then ask. (Score:2, Informative)
No, no one will force you to work twelve hours a day. They can easily find someone else who will *willingly* do so, to feed their family and pay their debts.
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry, but that's a load. You should know going into a job what the work environment is like. As an exempt employee (one who's pay is not tied to hours worked, only to days worked) you have a right to know what the company expects from you.
Look around and make a judgement call. Say, "I will willingly work a 45 hour week, plus more on occasion" or some other reasonable standard. Companies, or at least good managers, realize that most people have lives outside of work. If you are good at your job then chances are they will want to keep you happy rather than work you until burn out and then watch you leave. (Yes, even in this shitty job market the upper quartile in any field rarely wants for work for any length of time.)
And those co-workers who are *willingly* putting 12 hour days without request or compensation are workaholics or naive or both. If you love your job enough to gladly work boku hours, or maybe if you're gunning for a promotion then maybe its ok. Otherwise don't waste your time (IMHO, of course).
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:5, Insightful)
Recently, our director mentioned that she expected at least 50-60 hours per week, every week from all professional, salaried staff (we have about 20-25 people in that category. Our "official" workday is 7.5 hours. In essence, we're being told that we have to work a minimum of 10-12 hour days every week of the year and more when we have critical needs.
As you might imagine, people are somewhat displeased by this and, unfortunately, many of the employable ones are beginning to look elsewhere. Life's too short to be dragged into a situation like this bad economy or not.
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:1)
It's not an oxymoron; it's redundant.
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:2)
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:2)
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:1)
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:1)
Absolutely. When I took my new *thank GOD* job, I was told during one of the interviews that the boss expected 50 hours a week of work (I am salaried). I said no and if that was what he needed, he needed to hire someone else. That day he gave me a call and offered me the job. He siad that one of the reasons he offered it to me was that I would stand up for myself. The other 10 people he interviewed all stuck their tails between their legs and said, "Yes sir, no problem." So, stand up for what you want to work, and take care of yourself and you needs. Work to live, don't live to work.
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:2)
To a naive manager, this sounds appealing. For her salary budget, she has increased productivity by 25-50%!
But this is mainly proof that she isn't measuring productivity. If she were, she'd discover that compulsory overtime doesn't buy her anything in the long term, and probably hurts her. The studies I've looked at (see McConnell's "Rapid Development" for references to good research on the topic) suggest that if you make people spend that much time in the office, they spend a lot of it on doing things other than work.
And if they are programmers, it's even worse. When pressured to go faster, they skip testing, don't polish their code, and ignore big issues until "later". When programmers are tired, they make more mistakes. But since they are testing and polishing less, they find those mistakes later or not at all.
This pushes software projects into a downward spiral: increased bug counts and increased time-per-bug yield slipped schedules. Slipped schedules create more time pressure. More time pressure creates buggier, messier code. Eventually, everything blows up, but generally after the manager who created the problem has moved on.
The solution: taking the time to do it right is the fastest way to get it done:
That last one is especially important. Now that I measure my own productivity, I've discovered that it's better to stop coding when I get tired; otherwise I start making mistakes that cost me later. Then when your boss says, "Everybody must work 60 hours a week until the product ships!" you can say, "What effect do you think that will have on productivity? And if it turns out that 40-hour weeks are the fastest way to get things done, will you go back to them?"
Re:Wait, then ask. (Score:2)
A) If its a written or verbal policy that you work 7.5, and they change it on you, you may have grounds for a lawsuit.
b) Whether or not you are exempt from overtime depends on more then just being salary
learn you laws, and don't be afraid to protect yourself from abuse.
finally, talk to a lawyer.
Depends on your employment status (Score:4, Informative)
For contract work, I would guess it would be a bit different. You probably should negotiate both the expected number of hours and the expected calendar time for the project, because otherwise, they will work you as much as they can, and will claim contract breach if you don't work what they want.
And, don't trust HR. They are not on your side. Get everything in writing, and assume any nonwritten verbal agreement to not go in your favor if it comes down to it.
Being educated is 1000 times better than being in a union. This is your livelihood, so you have to take control of it and not let yourself get jerked around. Most employers are not "evil" and aren't out to screw you, but the will operate to their advantage (and why shouldn't they?), so be smart, informed and careful.
Re:Depends on your employment status (Score:4, Insightful)
An exempt employee is an administrative, professional or technical employee with a flexible work schedule. That flexibility is supposed to go both ways. (ie, if you work 60 hrs one week, you might work 30 hours in another). Plenty of employers abuse this, forcing workers to work beyond 40 hours regularly and not allowing a shorter workweek without a charge to PTO.
If that flexibility isn't there, you need to seek other employment.
Re:Depends on your employment status (Score:2)
Re:Depends on your employment status (Score:2)
If you are "salaried" you are "Overtime Exempt". Your work week is not limited to 40 hours, nor is your work day limited to 8 hours, and as a result, there is no overtime.
If you are non-exempt, you earn overtime if you work more the 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, or more then 7 consecutive days (But only in certain situations).
Here are two good [time-and-attendance.com] summaries [time-and-attendance.com]of California's overtime and exempt laws.
Re:Depends on your employment status (Score:2)
Also, if they have a policy of 7.5 hours a day, then they make you work more, you should sue.
Your implimcation that being in a union means your not educated is insulted.
There are many protections you can get from a union, that you will have a hard time getting on your own, like fair treatment, reasonable hours, and protection for seniority.
Salary (N.E.) Contractor? (Score:4, Informative)
I'd be careful (Score:5, Informative)
Depends... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Depends... (Score:2)
two questions (Score:4, Interesting)
2) If you are signing a *contract*, why don't you put an hours-per-week clause?
Joe
Re:two questions (Score:3, Funny)
Inconceivable! Unthinkable! Impossible! How dare you imply that such things ever happen! I suggest you get your facts straight before you make such sweeping generalizations!
We read slashdot, not play minesweeper.
Re:two questions (Score:2)
You have nothing to worry about from the IRS (as long as you pay them), but the employer does. The IRS has been taking a pretty tough stance on defining employees. Pretty much any individual paid by a company is an employee, and hence the employer is responsible for withholdings. The company must prove that you are not an employee (they must have an "arms length" relationship, which is up to the IRS to decide... but if you work at their location, are paid a flat rate, and are solely working for them, the IRS is likely to call you an employee). A contract is not enough. Which means if you don't pay your self employement withholdings, the company gets fined..
Also if you are a contractor, you should be paid about 1.5 to 2x what a comparable employee makes, otherwise you're likely getting screwed. The employer pays a lot of taxes that are not deducted from you check, and benefits are worth a few hundred bucks/month too. And how much value can you place of job security....
Fun, eh?
Where abouts... (Score:2, Insightful)
In Europe we have regulations to prevent this - stipulation on maximum working week etc. However, in the way the regulations were implemented in the UK, it's standard practice for everyone to sign a contract that allows overtime working with no fixed maximum.
So, if it did get too much, you would have to quit and probably work your termination period. There would probably be little to gain trying to argue the contract in court at that point.
I suspect that, even if there is a similar law in the US (or elsewhere), it would always have been implemented in an "optional" way to appease the large corporates.
Re:Where abouts... (Score:2)
I'd never go for a contract that states that if my boss so desires I can be forced to work 24/7 without extra compensation.
UK working time regs etc. (Score:2)
Of course, whether such a contractual clause has any legal validity at all is a different matter; see the DTI information [dti.gov.uk] on working time regulations.
The thing that always amazes me is that incompetent managers continue to equate longer hours with higher productivity. The UK has the longest hours and lowest statutory minimum holiday entitlement of any EU member state, yet it also has almost the lowest productivity by any major benchmark.
The population of the US seems prepared to put up with any amount of abuse from the big corporate employers and such, and when someone from elsewhere with three times the annual holiday allowance suggests that demanding a reasonable limit on their working hours is entirely appropriate, I've seen US citizens here on /. rant at them about how they don't know how good they've got it. They just don't realise how abusive their employers are compared to the rest of the western world... <sigh>
By the way, I work in the UK, and I'm paid a salary rather than an hourly rate (and no over-time). My contract specifies a minimum 37.5 hour week, and I work pretty close to that. The company makes a genuine effort to treat its employees well, so most of us are prepared to cut them some slack when deadlines come up, but ultimately it's a two-way business relationship, and there are always limits to what would be acceptable by either side.
In contrast, at the last place I worked, the management was so worried about their financial state that they actually started asking people to defer taking their holiday entitlement, because we couldn't bill the clients for days when people were on leave and cash flow was that bad. Needless to say, everyone started taking their holiday immediately to make sure they got it at all, and many of the good people started looking for alternative employment around that point. Go figure...
Re:UK working time regs etc. (Score:2)
That's true, but we also do have the lowest unemployment - 2-3% compared with 9-10% in France and Germany. Care to explain that?
Re:UK working time regs etc. (Score:2)
The problem with that idea is that while there is likely to be a fairly direct corrolation between working conditions and productivity, unemployment depends on a lot of other, independent factors.
For a start, you can fudge the figures very easily. The number of people who are not in regular, gainful employment in the UK is a very different statistic from the number of people claiming a Jobseeker's Allowance or similar benefit, and the latter is what the government's figures tend to report. That alone makes any meaningful comparison with figures from other nations nigh-on impossible.
Even if we ignore that detail, unemployment still depends on many economic factors that remain more favourable in the UK (fingers crossed) than they are elsewhere in Europe. I don't see that you can reasonably argue that our low unemployment is caused, or even mostly caused, by the sort of working conditions we're discussing.
Re:UK working time regs etc. (Score:2)
The idea behind the French 35-hr week was that if people had to work fewer hours, companies would have to take on more people to do the same work. This was a mistake on two levels. Firstly, the French tax system disproportionally penalizes companies for taking on more staff, and secondly, there is a limit to how much economic stimulus can be delivered by deliberately restricting economic activity!
Re:UK working time regs etc. (Score:2)
Economists call this the lump-of-labor fallacy [vcn.bc.ca].
Salary, Hourly and Overtime (Score:5, Informative)
" The federal salary level for professional employees remains at $170 per week, exclusive of board, lodging or other facilities; and the short test for professionals also uses a salary of just $250 per week. Computer professionals are treated somewhat differently, however. In 1990 the U.S. Congress passed legislation specifically to address the computer field. The exemption is applied only to "highly-skilled employees who have achieved a level of proficiency in the theoretical and practical application of a body of highly-specialized knowledge in computer systems analysis, programming, and software engineering." These computer professionals must receive a salary of at least $1,105 per week, which breaks down to an hourly wage of $27.35 for a 40-hour workweek; and is an annual salary of $57,460 - a far higher salary than most bona fide exempt EAPemployees receive in the human services field."
Link (Score:1)
overtime (Score:4, Informative)
Depends on your employers (Score:1)
YOU ARE NOT A CONTRACTOR! (Score:3, Informative)
You are their employee. An IT contractor has to jump through countless hoops to retain his independent status [Google on "Employee or Independent Contractor?" [google.com]]. In this instance, you are no longer a contractor by any sense of IRS regulations, common law, or statutory law.
On the other hand, if you were a conniving little twerp, you could get these people in a hell of a lot of trouble with e.g. the Labor Department [not to mention the IRS] were you to so choose. Of course, to leverage that to your advantage, you'd have to commit blackmail...
Re:YOU ARE NOT A CONTRACTOR! (Score:3, Interesting)
For what it's worth (Score:3, Insightful)
At any rate, I've found that setting expectations early is critical. Make it clear to your client what they are paying for. This does not mean you have to be inflexible. You both want the project to be successful in the end. If excessive hours are required, don't bother fighting. Simply make it clear that more work is more expensive, but that you will be happy to see to it that the client's needs are met. If your client has a problem with this, consider your relationship with them carefully. Make it clear that you understand their concerns and that you want to do whatever you can to help them, without getting screwed yourself. Your client is probably motivated by the memory of runaway projects. Make it clear that you have their best interests in mind. Remember, the client is motivated by both excitement and fear. If you can harness those emotions, you can usually turn the negotiations in a helpful direction for both of you.
Finally, it never hurts to show off your professionalism. Dress one notch more formally than those in your workplace. Be friendly and helpful at all times, but refrain from getting involved with office politics. Think about the mannerisms of your lawyer or doctor. You are a highly paid expert in your field. Act like it and your client will come to understand what they are paying for.
Negotiate the contract. (Score:5, Insightful)
Specify that perdiem (ie per day) rates are $xxx/day. A normal day is 7 or 8 hours and does not start before 6:30AM or after 7 PM. A maximum of xx extra hours may be worked per week, with reasonable notice.
After-hours rates are $xx/hr and oncall rates are $xx/hr. Payment terms are Net 30 with a 2% discount if paid within 14 days. There will be a 5% fee for invoices not paid within 60 days, and a 1.5% fee per 30 days thereafter.
If they do not agree to a contract like that, they are looking for someone to exploit, and will probaly be slow in producing money.
My advice is to go out and find another place to work.
IANAL, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
A: Yes. Well, technically no, but you are not an employee so yes. You see, an employee has to be given a total of 30 minutes rest for 8 hours of work, and while I can demand that the employee stay over 8hrs/day -or- 40hrs/wk, The state law makes sure that I compensate them with breaks, food, sometimes lodging. It gets to expensive for me to hold my employees longer than normal. I once figured the breaking point is at 9.5 to 10 hours a day. If I require my people to stay 9.5hr/day, I'm not really losing anything. However, at 10hr/day, I lose my butt. On the other hand, my lawyers have written our contracts such that when I hire a developer to work on a contract, they agree:
- Work in the office on business days (M-F): This means that the contactor can't work from home or decide to work tue, wed, thu. (of course they each have a set number of sick days, and vaca, etc...
- Work at the "corporate" pace: This is requirement very arbitrary. It's purpose is two fold. One, it allows me to get out of the contract with poor performers, and two, it allows me to squeeze late nights out of any contractor. It states that the contractor(s) must perform his/her/their tasks at such a pace as to not delay the development of the companies staff.
I know that it doesn't seem fair, but my view point on it is like this. If you hire a mechanic to fix your car, and they say that for $300 they can get it done in 4 days. If it take seven days, the total cost to you is greater than the price your agreed on for the service that you got. So in effect the mechanic broke your contract. I pay my contactors for end results, not time spent creating results. The Company that I hire contractors for, expects that for $300 they can get their car fixed, and if that doesn't happen it looses money.So yes, a company can require the entity that it contracts with to what ever it takes to provide the end product on time and with a certain level of quality. And my company also requires that all work done... be done inside the confines of our building. But no, it can get really expensive the keep regular employees.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
This means that the contactor can't work from home or decide to work tue, wed, thu.
[B]
If you hire a mechanic to fix your car, and they say that for $300 they can get it done in 4 days. If it take seven days
Umm, so if the mechanic manages to get it done in two days, he has to spend the extra two days working on your car, even though it is fixed, so you can get your money's worth?
The idea that you can death march programmers to quality software on time is stupid. I've on occasion worked long, long hours -- it's part of the creative process. You have to strike while the iron is hot. On the other hand, I've taken comp time later. I pretty much follow the same policy for people who are reporting to me. If they're accomplishing stuff at a good pace, I look the other way when they need a little personal time. And if you hire good people, you don't have the problem of squeezing extra time out of them -- quite the opposite. I send people home if I think they are working beyond their ability to contribute efficiently.
Creating software is about making dozens of decisions per hour, from how to name variables to how to structure systems of code. Fatigue doesn't lend itself to good decision making. All things being equal, I'll take a single, rested, motivated coder over five who are keeping their seats warm.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Almost!!! You are on the right track. But my contracts work more like this... mechanic manages to get it done in two days, mechanic gets paid the remainer of his contracted amount for that task, and gets the option of taking another task from the pile. So if I contract for 4 days, and the work takes him 2, then effectivly, he gets paid to two days he didn't have to work. Or to look at it another way, I didn't make him stay around the aditional 48 hours.
Marching (to the death or otherwise) is, and has to be, the sole responsibility of the developer, and the choices that developer makes are crutial to the success of the project. But if the developer isn't what he presented himself to be in the proposal stage of the contract, then the problem of having to work late hours is on his back... not mine. ALSO... If I can't get good code out of some script kiddy, I want to cut my frigg'en loses.
FYI: Our seats are motivated warmth and pride by the best in the biz!!!
THANKZ CREW
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
You appear to be contradicting what you said in your previous post, i.e., your contracts have a term requiring your contractors to:
So, if one of your contractors finished a contract of four-days of work in only two days, he/she cannot stay home because he/she is required by your contract to work in your office for the remaining two days. So, really you do make them stay around the additional 48 hours.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
I'm not talking about the difference between employees and contractors. I'm only explaining what the guy, "tenman", said not very clearly in his first two posts at the top of this thread. What has emerged from his subsequent comments is that he seems to have a term in his contracts which says his contractors must work a minimum number of hours per day at a particular location. Like I explained in my other posts he is using an archaic fixed-time, fixed-workplace, fixed-deliverable contract instead of a modern fixed-price, fixed-deliverable contract.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Could I get a link or something where it says that?
I've worked jobs where I only got 20 minutes for lunch and that was it.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
I'll see if I can find an online version of the law.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:1)
Please do, if you can. I've work with employers that refuse to pay for lunch, but also expect you to do things like answer phones, etc. during lunch. It would be nice to print it out for them...
[ Then again, I already quit one job where they started stiffing me for lunch. I'm _very_ picky about that... Especially when the job is less than 8 hours a day anyways. ]
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
No, you don't. You said you pay for hours.
Lots of contracts are written for deliverables rather than hours. That would be paying for end results. Maybe worth investigating for you...
Sumner
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
no you don't!
yes i do!
we could go on like this forever sweetest, but trust me... I pay for end product, and the contract says that end product has to be delivered on or by the COB on a specified date.
regards...
You must be a very confused & confusing manage (Score:2)
You are brazenly contradicting your own description of your company's standard contractual obligations. You said,
That's perfectly clear. You specify a minimum number of working hours per day. You also said your contractors must,
That's clear too. Not only must your contractors work your specified minimum number of hours per day but they must also work at your office every weekday.
So, what you are saying now is that you have another term, which you omitted to mention in your first comment, in your company's contracts which specifies a deliverable and a due date for that deliverable.
A more accurate description of what you pay for is to say you pay your contractors for fulfilment of all their contractual obligations. You do not pay them for end product alone. That difference is important.
In my opinion, you are not managing your contractors effectively. Find other managers who are using "time-less" contracts to see how they work. If you set up your contracts to require your contractors to complete deliverables by specified dates to agreed standards with as many intermediate milestones as you consider necessary for feedback purposes but without specifying minimum hours of work and arbitrary attendance for attendance's sake, you would still get the contracted deliverables but because you are offering a more attractive package you would be able to attract better contractors to fill your vacancies, improve staff motivation, suffer lower staff turnover, and get better results.
Re:You must be a very confused & confusing man (Score:2)
Re:You must be a very confused & confusing man (Score:2)
I'd bet you if you changed to use "time-less" contracts, you'd get higher productivity from your contractors for the same pay. Your company's lawyer should be able to write a really watertight time-less contract.
On the other hand, maybe you're a bear not a bull in the contract stakes, and would rather run away from trying any new contracts.
Re:You must be a very confused & confusing man (Score:2)
No really... you beat me down. You win. I posted the comment because it was a slow comment day. I'm not even a manager, nor have I ever worked as or with a contractor. I realize that if you use I timeless contract you get better quality, but the comment generated more activity posted as it was... and don't you feel better after venting? I know I do...
Have a nice day.
Re:You must be a very confused & confusing man (Score:2)
1. The first rule of Slashdot is: Never feed trolls!
2. The second rule of Slashdot is: Never feed trolls!
3. IANAT (who's kidding whom?!).
Happy New Year!
Sidenote on Mechanic hours (Score:2)
So for example, he's switching out the clutch on my '85 Subaru hatchback. He looks up the job and discovers that it should take 4.6 hours (yes, I made that up). He quotes me the price for parts + 4.6 hours of shop labor. I agree to pay this price. Because he kicks ass, he actually gets it done in 3.5 hours. I still pay the shop the full cost, and the shop still pays him for 4.6 hours of labor. However, if he screws the pooch and takes 7 hours, he is STILL only getting paid for 4.6. Efficient mechanics are rewarded for their skill, and nobody gets screwed over.
A good pay period can have him earning 55 hours of wages for 40 hours of work. Of course, what actually happens is that I leach off him and he does the labor for free, but my wife babysits his kid and I fix his PC, so it works out in the end.
Re:Sidenote on Mechanic hours (Score:2)
Everyone can win, but I'm not going to lose@!
Re:Sidenote on Mechanic hours (Score:2)
No, Soulfader(527299)'s point [slashdot.org] is not your point at all because you went a great leap further than the fixed-price, fixed-deliverable contract example he quoted. You deny your contractors the motivation to finish their work early that would otherwise exist if you rewarded them with proportionate time off-work, bonus pay, or even better, if you didn't specify their hours of work at all, i.e., used "time-less" fixed-price, fixed-deliverable contracts [slashdot.org]. Instead, you are using good old-fashioned fixed-time, fixed-workplace, fixed-deliverable contracts.
Re:Sidenote on Mechanic hours (Score:2)
Your busy man... Chill out!
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:1)
Or do you attempt to hire contractors on fixed priced contracts but still expect them to be controlled by you in the workplace? If this is the case and you expect them to follow your instruction during the course of the working day I don't see how you are doing anything but attempting to exploit the contractors by asking them to carry all the risk inherent in the deal.
Fixed proce deals carry risk, and the risk is all on the suppliers side. If it runs late, you dont get charged more, but they work more. Normally this means that a percentage premium is charged to partway guard against this, you seem to be handily skipping this step, and also increasing the level of risk by not having them work to a fixed spec, but under instruction from you. Why do you prefer this, why not just hire them on a daily rate, unless you are not confident in your ability to manage a project and the people that work for you? If they dont produce anything then cancel the contract, it should not be difficult to keep an eye on a contractor who is not performing.
Also this "corporate pace" thing sounds fishy. You have hired them for a fixed price job to be done in a fixed time, so let them do it and leave. If they take longer, then they incur the cost for that.
I can't imagine any contractor would expose themselves to that level of risk, but if you manage to get people to sign it, then I guess its their own fault.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Right! IE fixed deliverable.
I can't allow any work on my projects to leave my "secured area". Government contracts regulate that.
Yeah, It seems like that, but the contract also says that if we accept the work, then they are released from support for it. We can't go back a month later, and claim that the deliverable wasn't complete. We also, as matter of practice, don't hire contractor to write 3 year long projects. All we want is a widget or two that our developers are to busy to worry with. We give them grunt work, and we treat them like lab rats, and they love it. If they write good code, and they like the work, they renew the contracts, else we search for more rats. I contract with burger king employees that just got done at ITT Tech. These kids aren't solving world hunger; they are adding code to AED a database field in a table.
Do please get over yourself. You guys may be the best coders in the world, but I deal with the two-bit riff raff, and I separate the wheat from the chafe. So I ride them hard and put them up wet. Then the one that survives I try to sell to the highest bidder, because I made the financial investment in seeing what they are made of. If they can't hack it, they are put back on the street.
Now, in reality, I'm not a manager of anything. I'm a simple scripting geek. I have no power to hire, fire, or sign contracts for/with anyone. I started this tread because it was a slow comment day, and a top level comment like that was sure to get things moving. But I have come to realize that you guys are a bunch of cynical, bitter people.
Still I am going to add you all as friends. Bitter as you may be.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Once you demand an contractor work specific hours, and at your rate, in your office, the IRS considers them an employee. the Supreme court always has looked to the IRS rules to determine if they should be coinsidered an employee, regardless of contracts.
MS went through this when the IRS said all there contract employes were considered regular employees, and then the contractor sued for past benefits(i.e. stock)
Go to the IRS web sire, look up there guidlines, as a rule of thumb, you the person you contracted meets 7 out of 20, you are at risk, more then that, and you will be screwed.
In Oregon, that contract you describe would not protect you. I just went through this.
P.S. get a new lawyer.
Re:IANAL, but... (Score:2)
Its simple really... (Score:1)
If you do what they want and it doesn't coincide with what you want then you can try to negotiate however this will probably not work. You'll end up pissing them off and they will get rid of you one way or another if they don't get what they want from you.
The simple fact is that if your unwilling to put up with their bullshit, someone else will. If this is the only good job you can come up with, then your stuck with their terms. If you have several opportunities then you can negotiate or even laugh in their face.
Learn from this experience (Score:2)
As for the next time, there is no problem with asking a perspective employer how many hours a week you will be expected to work. It's also ok to ask to speak to a current employee of the company about the working conditions.
Do you get an IRS 1099?(e.g. are you a contractor) (Score:2)
- You bid a job for a firm fixed price/firm fixed time. e.g. you promised to do something by a given date for a given amount of money, and you signed a contract saying so. This is a great way to do contract work if you're experienced and can price your jobs competitively and deliver. But since you're asking newbie questions I don't think this is what you've got.
- You're a contractor and will get a form 1099
at the end of the tax year. This is possible, but again doesn't sound like what you described.
- You're working for a company that does contract work, but will get a W-2 (e.g. you're an employee of a contractor, but not a contractor yourself). In which case you certainly can be salaried, and maybe you've bitten off more than you can chew, but one would hope that the company that's you're working for is a decent one.
So what is it?Employee of contract house; hourly rate vs. salary (Score:3, Interesting)
As others have said, you're an "exempt employee"; the belief is that your hours are somewhat flexible, and that you are not guaranteed overtime no matter how many (or which) hours you work. (But you should be able to take a couple of hours off for a doctor's appointment without a lot of fuss.)
On the other hand, it's very likely that your contract house will bill the client for the number of hours you work. So you could be in a weird situation: the client could ask you to work 60 hours a week, your contract house makes 50% more than they'd expected, and you don't make an extra penny.
If everyone's reasonable, things will work out fine. The situation's ripe for potential abuse, though no more so than any other exempt employee situation.
My advice? Take the job, get what you can in writing, set expectations verbally when you can (and then take notes of what was said), don't talk about "40 hours per week" as if it's an entitlement
P.S.: My wife was offered a choice of salary or hourly. She took hourly (and will bill 40 hours per week but work whatever hours are required), at a rate corresponding to two paid weeks off. That way, if she wants to take more time off (without pay), she's able to do so. She got the position with the client (her old employer) first, and then shopped contract houses. It was great to find a supportive and flexible one.
Salaried employee of contract house (Score:1)
I'm a salaried "exempt" employee of a contract house that bills the client hourly. The company says that I am "hourly exempt," which is a contradiction in terms and most likely illegal. I can't work over 40 hours without prior authorization (cool by me); I can't work under 40 hours without using paid time off or taking unpaid leave.
As far as I can tell, the only real difference between me and an hourly employee is that I can only take unpaid time in full-day increments--which sucks, since I only get 2 weeks paid vacation and no sick pay. Unpaid leave is a certainty, and I wish I had more flexibility with it.
But I like the job and the people, and in this job market, I'm not about to quibble.
And it beats being "really" exempt. I don't work overtime--if I did, the contract specifies that they pay me straight time. I love how they make a lack of protection by labor laws sound like a good thing: hey, I'm exempt!
IRS on Employee or contractor (Score:3, Informative)
Here are the IRS guidelines used to determine whether or not an independent contractor truly is an: Employee or Contractor? Workers are generally considered employees if they:
Re:IRS on Employee or contractor (Score:1)
I adhere to the shop documentation and programming standards and to the standard of conduct, but this is in the contract.
Receive training from or at the direction of the employer.
No training accepted or required.
Provide services that are integrated into the business.
Every service in a computer shop is integral to the business. Else why would they contract for it?
Are aided by assistants who are hired, supervised and paid by the employer.
Not applicable.
Have a continuing working relationship with the employer.
The contract is re-negotiated every two to six months.
Must follow set hours of work.
They know that my hours are flexible.
Work full time for an employer.
I have other responsibilities.
Do their work on the employer's premises.
A security requirement.
Must do their work in a sequence set by the employer.
Adherence to standards is not the same as using personal initiative to solve a problem.
Must submit regular reports to the employer.
Time sheets are signed every week and become invoices.
Receive payments of regular amounts at set intervals.
It is in the contract.
Receive payments for business or traveling expenses.
I meet my own expenses.
Rely on the employer to furnish tools and materials.
I would bring in my laptop and a docking station, but security requirements say no.
Lack a major investment in the facilities or equipment used to perform the services.
Security requirements of the shop dictate otherwise.
Cannot make a profit or suffer a loss from their service.
If I do not work, I do not eat.
Work for one employer at a time.
Not applicable.
Do not offer their services to the general public.
Offer is made via a contracting company.
Can be fired by the employer.
With cause immediately, without cause after one week.
May quit work at any time without incurring liability.
Contractually, I suffer a liability if I do not give one month's notice.
Re:IRS on Employee or contractor (Score:2)
Re:IRS on Employee or contractor (Score:4, Informative)
After the IRS has determined what the status is from the SS-8 you can stick to it or dispute it. Sometimes its nice just to know that they've made their decision one way or the other rather than sit in never-never land.
Re:IRS on Employee or contractor (Score:2)
Sure. Just click on the comment ID, then File, Print...
Make it instead a loan to be repaid by labor (Score:1)
The proceeds of a loan are not income, therefore, these proceeds are not taxable.
The downside to the company is that they cannot charge off the labor as taxable, either. However, the offset in paperwork and administrative costs is significant, so it works for both of us.
In the above scenario, where the guy has contracted for un unspecified number of hours, I would base the amount of the loan and the repayment upon the desired deliverable and an expected delivery date. A clause in the loan would state that if they are responsible for any delays in the deliverable over and above a "normal" set of hours per week, that they are to make me a "bridge" loan at a premium, to be repaid at an increased rate.
You're treading on thin ice as I understand it (Score:2)
Re:You're treading on thin ice as I understand it (Score:1)
some real life insight (Score:1)
current: 50/hr no bennies/health ins/vacation/sick time
proposed: 1920 week (48/hr), 2 weeks vacation, health ins, sick days
in the current, if I worked a 41st hour I would get $50; in the second I would make $48. So I guess it was salary with overtime pay. From my understanding, this is a common practice.
I recently took a job as a contractor (Score:2)
recently I took a contract job. not going direct but thru a contract house (as many large companies insist on, today). I was sometimes given the option of going '1099' or 'w2' (as they say). but usually the contract houses want you to go w2 since it makes things easier for them and also (more importantly) less liability. I don't know why, but it became clear that they take less risk if you go w2.
btw, I found some useful numbers in my research. if you found the job yourself and was told to go to a 'body shop' to front-end you, you are really bringing the business to the body shop and you should know that the body shop should take about 23% of your income. if, otoh, you went to the body shop and they found YOU the job, they deserve a bit higher of a cut, which in the silicon valley seems to be about 33%. I found those numbers by poking and prying - technically I wasn't supposed to know those numbers.. but knowlege IS power.
anyway, your contract should be very clear about overtime. if you are not getting benefits from the company you are working at (where you report to each day), then I would work a straight 8 hours and that should be that. why should you work more than what you are paid for? you're not being compensated for the success of the company - you are being paid for your hours (quality hours, of course).
the client (where you work) may try to pressure you into staying beyond the normal work day but don't succumb. even though the guys you sit next to don't leave at 5 or 6pm, they also are getting some other compensation you are NOT getting.
make sure that if the body shop you work for bills for extra hours, you also see extra pay.
and read the contract carefully. its not wrong to negotiate on some of the paragraphs. I saw lots of non-compete clauses that were crazy! saying that I wasn't able to work for anyone that the client employed during the last 5 years or so! nuts!! if you are bringing the business to the bodyshop, you should NOT sign any non-compete more than, say, 3 to 6 months. certainly not a year and not 2 or 5 years! but if the body shop found you the job, they have a right to ask for a more aggressive non-compete from you.
and don't sign away your rights! don't allow 'arbitration'. use whatever legal avenues you have if you should run into problems later on. one contract I was presented said that I was giving up my legal rights in favor of THEIR arbitration and that I acknowledge that my arb. rights are LESS THAN those normally given to me by law. yeah, right - I'd really like to sign my rights away. when I called them on it, they did agree to strike that paragraph. see - you CAN talk with them and call them on their BS and get them to remove offending paragraphs - IF you shop around and see what is normal for your area/field.
last thought - work is hard to find. in a good market, you can show more moxy than in a weak market. try to negotiate but realize that working at all is better than holding out for a job that may be months in coming.
Re:I recently took a job as a contractor (Score:2)
I used the shell-company-for-hire ZeroChaos [zerochaos.com] for six months or so last year and was quite happy with them. The employer paid the fee on that one, but my recollection was that ZeroChaos charges a flat $300 per month.
You still have to pay all the various taxes that you would as an independent, but that's still better than 23%. And ZeroChaos also would let you buy benefits (including health insurance and a 401k) through them, which saves some hassle.
Re:I recently took a job as a contractor (Score:2)
are you sure thats not supposed to be:
"technically I wasn't supposed to know those numbers.. because knowlege IS power."?
the reason they don't like 1099, is if you don't pay the taxes, the IRS will go after the employer. I've seen decent companies starting to get a head lose everthing because a bunch of contractor didn't pay there taxes, and the company could afford to the fines.
How hungry are you? (Score:1)
If not then work your forty. It is gonna be VERY hard for anyone to fire you because you *only* worked 40 hours a week.
WHere the crap are you anyway, Indonesia? Here in America it's damn hard to fire someone (course you could easily make the next round of layoffs).
I had a boss that used to say "There's 24 hours in a day!" And I would yell back at him "Yeah but You only pay me for 8!"
Jerry Bernstein. If you ever run into the fat bastard run.
Good luck. The times they are a changin'. Read Michal Moores new book "Stupid White Men".
Bill
You're kidding, right? (Score:1)
Of course it's ok... you have a family, don't you? Or was that YOU on that carton of milk?
hours (Score:1)
Obviously, it doesn't hurt to be a little flexible when it's crunch time, but basically you're paid for 40 hours a week, so that should be your normal working hours. Working 12-16 hours a day may please some managers, but in the long run it's very counterproductive. You'll spend the first 4 hours of tomorrow fixing the mistakes you made in the last 4 hours of today.
I read a study some years ago that showed that after 9 hours of work, productivity and accuracy decreased dramatically in most workers. And this was an assembly line in a car factory.
Another point: "leaving after 8 hours when there's lots of things to do". Unless your project deadline is tomorrow and you really are very nearly done, there's always lots more things to do on a software project, so that doesn't hold water.
As for advice: since it is a new job, you could try to work a little more in the beginning. Look at what other people are doing: are you the only one working after hours? Is everybody doing it? Are they doing it because they feel like part of a team and want to accomplish something? Or are they doing it because they are intimidated by management? If it's the latter, you probably should start looking for yet another job (I know, I know, it's hard these days).
Just my 2 cents though...
This sounds complete bullshit to me. (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Nobody can make you work more hours than you want to. If your employer thinks you aren't doing enough work to justify your salary, they may fire you. But I have to say that in my 30 years in the IT industry, about half of it in the USA and about half in Europe, I have never come across a case of somebody being fired for refusing to work more than 40 hours per week.
3. A lot of young people seem to be very susceptible to peer-group pressure. You see a bunch of people working long hours, and you feel you can't just walk out of the office at 5pm, leaving them all beavering away. When you grow up, you'll realise that you can. Nothing bad will happen to you. You'll just get into the habit of wasting less time during the working day. And you may develop some independence of thought, which will be good for you.
Re:This sounds complete bullshit to me. (Score:5, Insightful)
Since slavery was abolished (and some labor laws were put into place), nobody gets to chain you to your desk anymore. If your 8 hours are up, walk away (if you like). It turns out that most folks who fail to balance work and life burn out at their job (some sooner than others).
Come on, what are they going to do? Fire you? For not working for free? In America we call that "grounds for lawsuit", and most companies won't risk that.
And really, if you're doing a good job the hours that you're there, why WOULD they fire you?
The last thing to note, though, is that if it's a good company/manager they won't even try to make you work free overtime. But it sounds like they probably are not a good company.
Take the job, leave at 5pm, and keep looking for a good job.
Re:New Zealand Ethics? (Score:2)
When I started, the economic climate was very different, as in other western economies. Attitudes of both sides reflected this in a way that everybody seemed more relaxed, which produced results avoiding too much pressure. At the time, I used to work as a salaried contractor (with hours/week specified in the contract) and overtime (if required) paid at 1:1. Company was pretty large for NZ conditions.
Few of my friends at the time worked as salaried employees for few other companies, some NZ some overseas based, some small shops some multinationals and had very similar experiences in all of those places - they were able to get time off (for family matters) without much fuss almost always, there was reasonable amount of performance/results pressure and everybody seemed happy. Christmas parties used to be paid in full by companies and the most important part of it was to bring families along. Not all of those friends were in the IT, so I guess 6 years ago you could say working environment was more balanced, putting fair amount of importance on both sides.
After 6 years and two more companies, one of which was small local IT shop and present one US based Fortune 500, I can tell you that lot has changed. Job and buck are all that matter, all around the place. More of the above mentioned friends are out of work than employed and those employed share the feeling - it's not a happy place that it used to be. Things became VERY different over the course of last 2.5 years and I don't have a feeling that I still work for the same company I started with. I'm lucky though to have a job that I really like and that I am good at, with deadlines being more an exemption than a rule (sysadmin) but I can see changes everywhere, from cashiers in supermarkets, whose average age used to be 16-17 with a smile and now it's 40+ and they seem to have forgotten what the smile is, to highly skilled software developers who are busting their buts on very tight schedules and earning peanuts. In short, employers are taking full advantage of the fact that we all have to feed our families and that job market is pretty much in a 'stand still' mode.
Hope this answeres some of the questions. If not a secret, why do you ask? Perhaps planning to come over?
Salyry != no overtime pay (Score:2)
I started looking into this a few weks ago, and was surprised to find out how many salary position I have had that I should have gotten overtime.
so, Take the salary, and if it turns out your duties do NOT make you exempt from overtime, innocently ask where you OT is, when they say your salary, through the law at them. If the fire you, sue them. Odds are, they won't fire you because you'll raise a stink, and they will become liable for back OT for every employee who has EVER qualified.
But first, read up on your states laws, and talk to a Lawyer who specialty is employment issue.
To start a lot of staes have this info online.