josquint asks:
"Does the Computer Service/Repair field need to be regulated? This is a question I asked myself after spending a day off from my position as Lead Technician at a local computer shop, in an auto repair shop and a hair salon. In both places, I noted that all the employees had their trade credentials displayed for all customers to see. They are not only displayed as a matter of pride or to gain customer trust (as my A+ and Network Security certificate is) but as a matter of law. This regulation, to me, makes sense. If you're going to pay good money to have your automobile repaired, it better be by someone trained and proficient at doing it (otherwise I might as well do it myself!). Also, there is a matter of safety --an error in repairing a car can easily result in injury or death of quite a few people, so some accountability is needed.
The salon regulation, to me at first, seemed like the usual overkill large government regulation. However, it too is a matter of safety to the clients, as the chemicals and equipment (tanning beds especially) can also do harm if used incorrectly. Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world? What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any? How and at what level would it be implemented and enforced?"
"I personally would like something that requires certain basic certifications for the techs themselves, and possibly something to do with retail shop areas (use of static mats, data backup procedures, etc). And enforced at the State level similar to most small business type codes.
I wouldn't have a problem following some such type of regulation, and probably wouldn't need to do much if anything to make code. I do a fair share of cleaning up after fly-by-night companies/consultants/johnny's-14-year-old nephew-that-really-knows-computers. It costs a lot of the local businesses serious money to replace lost data and sub-standard equipment. I just completed a total system replacement at a clinic that had the system replaced about 2 months ago. It cost them over $10,000 for a system the should have been close to $3,500, but they had to replace the first replacement due to a consultant that had no experience or knowledge in that type of system trying to put one in.
While regulation wouldn't solve everything, I think it might cut down on the riff-raff and wannabes in an industry that many businesses can't do without as they can't do without electricity."
definitely (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:definitely (Score:2, Funny)
Re:definitely (Score:5, Insightful)
For important systems, get certified techs. For Joe Everyman, there's usually no need -- esp. with all the cheap underage (high school) proficient labor around.
Re:definitely (Score:5, Insightful)
We could argue back and forth about the monetary value of my personal data and files, as well as my user account credentials for online services, which could be damaged/destroyed/compromised if I were to take my system in for service. I'd say that's a fairly large liability, wouldn't you?
Suppose I run my own legitimate business at home from my computer? That's a pretty hefty burden to deal with if the shop I take my system to screws it up. You could say that it's my responsibility to keep backups of my data, but I'd just as easily say it's the shop's responsibility to make sure that they don't break what isn't already broken. You know...the ol' Hippocratic oath - "First, do no harm."
Re:definitely (Score:5, Informative)
Re:definitely (Score:3, Insightful)
Better yet, I'd recommend making sure the shop you take the machine to is reputable, and knows what they are doing (and understands the value of your data). Make sure they know not to touch your data without calling you first with backup options, etc.
Another significant reason to do this (and IMHO another ripe area for regulation) is that you aren't giving the guy in the repair shop access to your data...
I think any reputable shop won't go browsing through your pr0n or email. Again, research the shop first. Talk to the shop manager, or at least the person who's going to dig into the box. Or if it's a bigger shop, read their policies.
There is no need for regulation in my opinion. There are plenty of users who's data doesn't mean squat to them, and these users won't care to pay the extra fees to compensate for having to have "licenced PC repair persons". Like with anything else, some shops will be of higher quality and integrity than others. You get what you pay for...
Re:definitely (Score:5, Informative)
Re:definitely (Score:3, Funny)
We would of course tell everyone in advance, and when it came to reformatting someones drive to reinstall windows, 9 out of 10 people would say "Yeah, go ahead, it's just the kids games anyways".
Re:definitely (Score:3, Insightful)
Your files are important? Then only have competent people work on your computer.
You can easily just reinstall canned software and don't want to pay $100 labor to have that peripheral added? Then choose less selectively.
Re:definitely (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly!
I too fix dozens of computers every month for people who had their friend who "really knows computers" work on it, and the work ranges from slightly to extraordinarily incompetent in most cases. Businesses get roped into bad deals with incompetent computer techs, too, and it's entirely preventable.
Some steps to ensure the integrity of your data;
- How long have you been doing this?
- Have you worked at and/or operated any other businesses recently?
- What do you know about {insert system configuration here}?
- What are your labour rates? (Hint: established, knowledgeable businesses will tend to have firm, hourly labour rates. Joe Computer Guy will work for a coffee, a cheeseburger, 'like 20 bucks', etc.)
- How long have you been in this location?
- What steps would you take to ensure the integrity of my data?
- What type of warranty do you offer?
- Do you guarantee your labour? How?
If the company wants your business, they'll take the time to answer your questions and make you feel confident. Some will even invite you, if you don't feel comfortable, to take your business elsewhere. If they seem like they really, REALLY want your business, be wary.There are any number of things you can do to ensure that you can trust the people you're leaving your computer with; a lot of which can be asessed in about 30 seconds when you walk in the door. Caveat Emptor has to apply, and if people are going to blindly trust someone on their word (hint; smooth talkers aren't neccesarily the best people for the job!), then IMNSHO they deserve whatever perils they may encounter.
I have real trouble symapthizing with someone who entrusted their computer to a 14 year old whiz-kid and wound up losing all their data and had components blow up on them shortly afterwards. Even businesses who aren't computer savvy should be able to recognize a snake-oil salesman when they see one coming. They should also have a firm contract, reveiwed by their lawyer if they're large enough to warrant, that spells out exactly what the technician will and will not do, and gives timeframes for completion of work. All too often I've seen incompetent contractors charging hourly rates for weeks on end for a three day job, just because they can't figure it out. Are you paying for someone's learning curve? Have someone stay in the room with them and see what they're donig. If they're reading manuals more than they're working, or if you hear an excess of profanity with little positive result, chances are you're funding their mis-education.
I really don't want to see government, who (from personal experience) have clue #0 about information technology, mandating certification levels for computer stores. While it would be nice to see much of our local competition shut down, it would also add a lot of additional headache to an otherwise low margin, slumping industry.
Re:definitely (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, yes, that's exactly what I'd say. If you ever give critical data to anyone without having a backup, then you're probably going to screw yourself long before a careless tech has a chance to do so. Of course, if you engage in that kind of negligence while working for someone else, you'll probably be finding work in another field, anyway.
Personally, I think certifications for computer repair are meaningless. Given that assembling computers is only slightly more complicated than assembling Legos, and the cost of simply replacing a motherboard (or whatever) is often less than the cost of having a tech spend a couple of hours performing diagnostics, the additional cost imposed by "licensed" technicians would be pointless.
This is for PCs, mind you -- for high end machines like Sun servers or IBM mainframes, the vendor supplies trained technicians and no outside agency would have the expertise necessary to even design a certification program.
Perhaps more important than any of this is the painfully obvious fact that you can easily have crappy work done on your car in garages full of certified mechanics, and you can get excellent repair work done by shade-tree mechanics. Certification programs exist mainly as a marketing tool and a bar to entry for competitors, and utterly fail to address the main problem with auto mechanics, which is endemic fraud. There is no reason to believe that computer repair -- another field where fraud is endemic -- would be any better served by bogus certifications than the auto repair industry.
Re:definitely (Score:5, Insightful)
For a computer tech that's probably no longer the case. Unless he stayed in the field and continued his training, his knowledge is now up to date.
Also for car repair or hair dressing you need motoric skills (welding, cutting precisely etc) - once learned they can probably be adapted for new styles, or new tools fairly quickly. For the computer field that's usually not the case - unless you want to get deep into using soldering irons, the motoric side is trivial - what's important is to be able to pick up new knowledge quickly and to understand complex systems. Something which is very difficult to measure with certifications. They are only checking a snapshot of current (and soon out of date) knowledge.
Setting up a certification body, which then has to continually update the skill set measured is going to be a lot more difficult, in this case.
The best computer techs are often students, who know a lot of about computers and are quick to pick up new knowledge. They are good in that field because of these skills, and because they have these skills they will not stay in that field. They are training for other professions, and won't have time for getting these certifications.
So what I'm worried about, is that these certifications will effectively preclude the best suited people from actually working in the field, removing a good job for students to earn money for their tuition, and will not noticeably raise the minimum standards either.
Re:true (Score:3, Insightful)
Haven't we seen enough evidence of this through Windows viruses?
I can see an easy parallel between sink/sewage and computer/internet.
My 2 cents.
Re:true (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you missed the next few steps:
4. Government decides that OSes that are going to be connected to the internet have to be certified and signed.
5. ISPs are required to run software which interacts with your local PC to decide if it is running on trusted hardware with a trusted OS - otherwise click
6. MS pays off the appropriate authorities and WinXP gets the signature.
7. Big Linux distro also pays to get a sig. However, if you recompile your kernel the sig doesn't match anymore, and you can't go online.
8. Profit! (For MS at least, and some big linux vendors.)
Re:definitely (Score:3, Funny)
Besides, it may violate zoning ordinances or homeowner association rules to have a waterfall running out your front door.
whereas on a computer the stakes are usually much lower.
Oh, I dunno, I suppose it's only a matter of time before you have to get a building permit to construct one of those super dual overclocked PC's with all the lights and stuff.
"Where's the environmental impact report on waste heat, you can't overclock without one ya know, and don't let anyone catch you watercooling without a master plumber's oversight."
Re:definitely (Score:3, Insightful)
And one has to wonder - would a State Regulated computer tech licensing firm have trained the tech in the particular backup software you were utilising?
Re:definitely (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: because (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: who would do the certs? (Score:3, Insightful)
At least where I live, certification for auto mechanics is optional. Generally it is required only by manufacturers for in-warranty repairs. It just so happens that many people feel more comfortable taking their automobile to a certified mechanic.
Which raises a question: why require certification if people are free to choose to go to a certified repair shop?
But the real humdinger is who would do the certification? Mechanics (and other repair persons) are generally certified by manufacturers to do authorized service. Construction folks are generally certified by local municipalities to do certain types of work: plumbing, electric, etc. Requiring certification at any level above the local level would likely be problematic on a legal basis. If municipalities begin requiring certification, a morass of different computer repair codes will result.
Re:definitely (Score:2, Informative)
Re:definitely (Score:5, Insightful)
There are others of us, though, who see certifications* often as nothing more than an artificial limitation on a task that does absolutely nothing to improve quality or accountability, and instead requires a costly certification board that effectively becomes a union fee on the members, increasing costs on the consumer while reducing competition and consumer choice. No thanks. Keep the government out of this.
Re:definitely (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, there's an issue of practicality: the computer industry moves at a breakneck pace compared to the automotive industry (in part because of the safety issue). Government agencies move notoriously slowly, so we'd still have people being certified on Windows XP when everybody's using Windows: Next Dimension 2008. Same with hardware.
If you want decent tech support, do your homework and see if your tech has a good reputation. Don't make me pay more taxes so the government can do your homework for you.
Using the right analogy (Score:3, Interesting)
Not unless your whole house is computerized. I can see at the very least licensing for folks that handle whole house installations--admittedly a bit down the line--where you could do real damage if you screwed things up. (Reminds me of the Asimov story where the house decided one day that the occupants were superfluous.) There's a real divide here between computers as just another appliance, like washing machines (do washing machine repairmen need licenses? I don't think so, but correct if I'm wrong, and they could flood your basement at the very least), and computers as integral parts of larger systems.
Personally, I tend to roll my own, but I can sympathize with the average guy or gal who wouldn't know RAM from a ramjet. But then, who knows how a maching machine works well enough to fix it, either?
certification? (Score:5, Funny)
Computer certification would be GREAT! We've all seen that there's no dishonest mechanics.
Re:certification? (Score:4, Insightful)
As one who fixes his own car, _EVERY TIME_ someone else works on it, they mess something up. If I didnt fix my own computer, I am sure I would see the same.
A certificate is just a piece of paper that reflects a persons reputation. It does not reflect knowledge or skill.
if you screw up, you can loose your certificate, but its too late for those who trusted that it had value in the first place.
Re:certification? (Score:5, Interesting)
What reputation? A certificate is simply a piece of paper stating that someone attended or completed some half-assed course he took at who-knows what establishment that makes money giving out these pieces of paper.
I don't think legally requiring some certification to repair Joe Sixpack's PC is (a) feasible, or (b) will improve anything, including responsibility. If anything, it will make simple PC repairs more expensive, and they'll make you sign off your firstborn when you take in the PC for a repair. For businesses, it makes sense to have service agreements with companies that are, e.g., Sun certified, or HP certified, etc. Private sector handles it fine. However, for mass market there are no benefits, and most of all, no incentive.
Comparing this to plumbing (like many posts do) is a disaster. Obviously, it's not well thought through. Realize that in any kind of construction, real estate job, there are many more interests involved. These are - land owners, banks and credit institutions, architects, one or more construction companies, property management companies, the city, lessors, lessees... all this is big business and a lot of liability. Legally required certification in these cases provide for defined responsibilities, reduce risk (or at least expose risk), lower deviation in prices, and create a plain field for somewhat competitive market, among other things. In a simple scenario, if a plumber screws up and ends up damaging your property, not only have you suffered, but potentially your neighbors, your property management company, the city, and the bank who gave you the mortgage. If banks cannot rely on, or know the risk and liability of property repairs (e.g. electrician burns down the whole house), they would have to incorporate that risk in their services.
No such interests exist when repairing Joe Sixpack's PC. Usually what you are dealing with is a $600 (or less) computer and a more or less simple problem. The data on the computer consists of few mp3s, couple of documents, some e-mails, and a lot of porn. In other words, nothing remotely close to a multi-billion dollar business. Therefore, no support for legislation.
Re:certification? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I hate auto mechanics who love money. Damn them.
Ecclesiastes 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.
Re:certification? (Score:4, Insightful)
That doesn't happen with mechanics, so why should it happen to computer technicians?
I was a junior greasemonkey for about a year at a shop with a good reputation. The owner of that shop did a lot of horrible things that still haunt me even though I quit 3 years ago.
One of my ASE certifications is for manual transmissions. I don't trust myself to work on those (and sadly they're hardly used anymore), but I passed the test.
And with a dishonest mechanic, things aren't going to get any better. Shops that charge $500 to replace a valve cover (on a car from the 70s). It's a 2 minute job. We didn't do that, that's just a dishonest mechanic with ASE certification.
I really don't think computer certification for computer techs is going to mean anything.
Re:certification? (Score:4, Insightful)
and he is the best there is within a 500 mile radius. He fixes things right the first time, does it fairly and honestly. and I'm not the only person that feels this way, his walls of the office are papered with letters from happy customers, and if you look at the dates they are no older than 4 months, except for a few gem's that are framed... and if you want to see the boxes of old praise letters he has just ask..
it is not REQUIRED for you to be a certified mechanic. you have to notify the customer that you are NOT certified.
Me? I'll stick with my non-certified mechanic, and hiring non-certified IT professionals.. I dont get burned by making them demonstrate their abilities instead of trusing some piece of paper.
Re:certification? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:certification? (Score:3, Insightful)
You guys need a certification in something...but computers ain't it. Reinstall is the absolute LAST option, only to be used when you're (a) out of options, or (b) know the fix would take longer than rebuilding the machine. Not entirely true on corporate machines that have disk images and automated app installs, but then they don't bring their PC's to the shop, do they?
Why can't you just find the problem and fix it? Is it that difficult? If it is, perhaps you should look for a new line of work, instead of leaving competent techs like myself to clean up after you or trying to explain why you formatted someone's PC (and usually screwed it up even more by losing data, settings, or not installing drivers, etc) for no reason.
Regulation makes it MORE difficult... (Score:2, Insightful)
Not the same thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Similarly, a hair stylist has sanitation concerns that must be met to provide a germ-free and safe environment.
A computer technician normally troubleshoots and diagnoses systems that do not have concerns of this type.
Granted, there are occasions when a system is critical to the functioning of a system of this type, such as elevators, but most of those functions are licensed anyway, so the technology must be certified, rather than the technician.
Safety Issue (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, well when I am playing BF1942 and get shot up due to a poorly responding NIC driver or a fragged drive I want some sort of accountability. It IS a safety issue.
If for nothing else, do it for the children.
Re:Not the same thing... (Score:4, Interesting)
Computer repair is pretty trivial, by comparison.
What you've got in those cases might be protections in the form of implied warranties of merchantability
Also, whenever I sign a freelance contract, there's often a clause in there that says something along the lines of, "the vendor (me) warrants that his services are competent" -- in other words, if I screw up completely and they can satisfy a court that I didn't really know what I was talking about from the get-go, then they don't have to pay me at all. In fact, I may owe them for what I screw up. Rather than looking for the government to pass more laws regulating independent businesses, you might want to look for more along these lines when you sign an agreement with a repair guy.
About Contracts, etc (Score:4, Insightful)
BUT and this is what I also see. If people are not satisfied, then no matter how much we know it is a bad idea it will happen. In industry, when there is a problem that cannot be managed by the industry, regulations start. They start because people want some quality and control. And no matter how much we whine, the law makers will not care.
THEREFORE, it is up to us to fix it!
Re:Not the same thing... (Score:3, Insightful)
Certification at barrier to entry (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh wait, that would drive up business costs and politicians are merely corporate puppets. I guess it won't become law after all.
Re:Not the same thing... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not the same thing... (Score:3, Informative)
No regulation. (Score:3, Funny)
There are too many idiots working in PC repair. If it were regulated they'd all be out of jobs.
Re:No regulation. (Score:5, Insightful)
The bottom line is: buyer beware. Find someone who seems intelligent and trustworthy, and let them do the repair. If they don't do a good job, find someone else. Government regulation wouldn't guarantee anything but that someone working in the shop you take your computer to has completed a minimal, half-baked certification process and paid someone a fee. I.e. it won't get you better service.
The very nature of a government certification guarantees this. It can't be any kind of guarantee of excellence, because that would exclude the un-excellent from working in the field, and that would be counter to government's purpose. If you want excellence, evaluate the person's intelligence by talking to them. They should be straightforward, honest, and not shower you with a deluge of jargon and technical information you don't understand (unless, of course, you understand it, in which case they should be able to show an understanding of the jargon they're using, rather than spitting out complicated-sounding terms that don't mean anything). If they can't speak with you clearly, don't trust your important data to them. It's very simple.
Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
The things I see in the cases above are people who make bad choices and ignore the simplest of common sense when hiring someone to do any kind of work.
This would just add costs to those who want to do the work- which would get passed on to the customer and drive out the little guy who doesn't have the time or money to get a 'license' to fix computers.
Not to mention the possible legal hassles for helping someone out.
Nope.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly, as soon as computer repair becomes a racket then you will undoubtedly see both unionization and certification.
Basically mandated government certification usually happens not because of public safety. Heck, look at the examples of automotive repair and beauty salons. There are plenty of auto mechanics that are incompetent, and piles more that are plain dishonest. And there are plenty of incompetent beauty school grads as well. That's why when your car is busted or you need a haircut you ask people you trust for a recommendation. Anyone who has ever had a mechanic screw up their car or gotten a bad haircut knows that the certification doesn't really mean anything.
What certification and unionization do accomplish, however, is that they raise the barrier to enter the profession. The folks that already do this type of work would just as soon not have any new competition, so they make it difficult to enter the business. Whether this is good or not depends on your point of view.
Not that it matters in the case of computer repair. Computer repair is a dying business anyhow. When you can purchase a new computer for $200 from walmart.com why would you bother repairing your old machine? In a few years the only people interested in repairing old computers will be the type of people that fix toasters and vacuum cleaners for fun. Adding certification and unionization to the mix will only make computer repair more expensive and accelerate the rush towards replacing instead of repairing.
Whose certificates shall be accepted? (Score:2)
Should we have a congolmerate authority?
Or perhaps a list of accepted certs?
Or one cert to rule them all...?
Will there be a hierarchy or certs (my cert is better than your cert.)
In the end you may open up a can o' worms. But some regulation is needed, yes. How about a union? (but I don't want to pay dues, cuz that sux, so perhaps that's out as well.) I'd also like to see a unified pricing code as well.
Re:Whose certificates shall be accepted? (Score:3, Funny)
The word I think we are all looking for is Tech Guilds. Now if we can just hire some thugs to enforce things...
All you need is your A+ and Network Security certs (Score:5, Funny)
Anyone who passes these tests is definately qualified to repair my computer running my favorite flavor of *BSD or Linux!
WELL, (Score:5, Insightful)
Frys for example has horrendous levels of bad/returned equipment (because the purchase and resell refurbs and returns and bad equipment side-by-side at the same prices as real brand new equipment) and they tend to have very very poor customer service.
I would rather have a level of customer service that should be expected from any and all customers - maybe even regulating the return/exchange policies....
If all companies were required to have their customer service entities live of to an expected level of performance/satisfaction it would do wonders for trust and consumer satisfaction in general.
I cannot tell you how angry it makes me when I deal with difficult, deceptive or rude customer service agents.
Do you really want an MCSE fixing your computer? (Score:2, Insightful)
Even if it means I have to be an informed consumer, I'd much rather have choice and make my own decisions. With choice there will be reasons for the good people to stay in the field.
The difference is criticalness (Score:2)
As you mentioned for the salon also, there are safety implications. Chemicals used wrong could hurt you. Tanning beds could have severe consequences.
Now, your computer won't explode and kill you're family. You're keyboard won't start glowing and irradiate you and give you cancer, like a tanning bed can easily.
A mechanic must do his job right or else you may die. If I screw up your computer, you may lose information. You may not be able to forward chain letters. You may not be able to talk to Aunt Millie on AIM.
But you won't *DIE*. That's a massive difference that should be recognized.
A+? (Score:2)
"Certifications" like A+ are the reason our industry is plagued by morons.
An auto mechanic cert has to be half-way decent, since lives depend on it. But as long as you can buy a computer cert from an infomercial on TV, they're worthless.
Work for hire (Score:2)
You can do first aid at home, for someone in an emergency without legal problems. You shouldn't be a paid first aider without proper training/certification.
A private pilot license is much cheaper then the commercial license.
Anyone can work on their own car, only a licenced mechanic can sell their service.
You can cut your own hair, you can cut your friends hair. You can't open a salon without the certification.
I think computer repair should be regulated similarly. To sell computer repair, you need to have a license/certification/training.
To fix your own, or to "help a friend" you don't.
Make it optional and known and they will all do it (Score:2)
I think this should apply to software engineers as well as system maintenance people.
The biggest problem being that there is little centralization and validation of such accrediation, at least for software.
I'd go for less regulation, and not more (Score:3, Interesting)
These sort of regulations are sold to the public as "protection." In fact, they're put in place by politicians in the pockets of established businesses to remove the lower rungs from the ladder of success for others. They make it cost that much more to get in business and compete with them.
Try this some time. You've got a car, and you know how to drive. There are people without cars, who need to get places. Put a sign on your car that says "Taxi," drive around, and offer to take people to where they need to go for a reasonable price. Be safe, courteous, and take good care of your car. See how long it takes before the cops shut you down. There are some cities where the fees to get a taxi cab medallion are in the tens of thousands of dollars. Hairdresses may wind up spending $5000 on completely unnecessary certifications. Protecting the public? A little, maybe...protecting bigger, already established businesses from cheap competition? Oh, yeah...
Re:I'd go for less regulation, and not more (Score:3, Insightful)
A mechanic who has been required to be licensed is garunteed to have a minimum of training that raises the safety of his work for all of his customers.
Same goes for hairdressers and just about anyone else required to get a license.
It's important because... (Score:5, Funny)
In addition to a certificate of qualification (Score:5, Funny)
Scenario (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry man, I could get in real trouble if I work on your computer. I don't have a license...
Re:Scenario (Score:4, Funny)
Sorry man, I could get in real trouble if I work on your computer. I don't have a license...
I was against it until you pointed this out.
This sort of idea amounts to restraint of trade, the sort of thing that IBM and Pitney Bowes and Microsoft have all been slapped for. These stupid, mandated, credentials devalue the experience and reputation of the truely competent, and do little to protect the public from the incompetent and the fraudulent. They DO help keep wages and prices up for the people who have bought the certifications.
Still, if it lets me get out of repairing folks' computers, it might be worth it.
Safety is not the only concern here... (Score:2)
won't work (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because I do OpenGL for a living, does that make me A+ certified? Or because I cannot do Linux Admin to save my life, am I not qualified?
Computer knowledge requires too many differnt areas of knowledge, since, by nature, they are a general purpose machine. The things that need certifications, do already, (MSIE, SUN security, Java, C++). I don't think there can be a law that requires me to be certified in computers, because ultimitly it would be a certification in many general subject that most I will never use in my Job or any job in the future I may have...(or forgotten by the time I get my new job
Regulate, Control, Oppress, Profit (Score:2, Funny)
"Your computer doesn't support Palladium, sir, you must 'upgrade' or we'll have to notify the government."
FATAL ERROR - THIS UNIT WAS OPENED/MODIFIED BY NON-CERTIFIED PERSONNEL
"Oh, back in them days we just handed your server off to an available teenage nerd and charged $50/Hr for repairs. Now that all our technicians are board certified it'll be $250/Hr for repairs, but you can rest easier at night."
UNSIGNED DRIVER INSTALLED - U.S. Department of Homeland Security has been notified, please turn yourself in to reduce expense of taxpayer dollars in tracking you down and hitting you repeatedly with a bat, you filthy terrorist!
It's a brave new world...
The whole cert thing is about money (Score:2, Insightful)
And the license that you need to run a business is all about money that the local government wants.
So count me out on the added taxes hassles and overall mess.
PS: I could I get a little off the top, trim it so the hair is off the ears and trim up the back. ;)
NO! It's a fancy word for TAX (Score:2, Interesting)
With the way the computer industry operates, this will just become yet ANOTHER tax. You will have to pay every so often for a piece of paper that says you are good-to-go. You are being taxed to work in this industry. Don't fall for it. It's hard enough to have to keep up with new technology, do you want to have to pay even more than you already do to keep up?
Besides, I'm unemployed and broke. I can't afford it right now
certified != good (or even competent) (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had many bad haircuts.
I've met lots of people who are MCSE's who are clueless.
All the certifications mean is that someone has demonstrated to someone else that they can regurgitate material that has been laid out for them. It doesn't mean they can apply the knowledge to real world situations.
I go to organizations that have a good reputation, I've had good experience with, or my friends/peers have had good experience with. If I have a bad experience with them, I move elsewhere.
I like the system. It works. Sometimes I get burned, but for the most part I'm happy because I use common sense.
Mandated certification is restraint of trade (Score:2)
However, mandating by law that you need it before you can do it is just a restraint of trade obstacle put up by people who want to limit the competition they have. Look at the legal field, for example. A lot of legal work can easily be done by experienced non-lawyers, but not legally.
The same is true of the medical profession. I'm not interested in non-PhD medical attention, but I don't think that means that some people shouldn't have that option, especially if someone with lesser credentials can treat minor health problems for a lot less money.
Instead of mandating certification, I'd be more in favor of a "malpractice" solution. If you claim you can do X and are in the business of doing X and you screw up, then you owe me double damages or something that would provide a strong disincentive for dishonesty or incompetance.
Do you really think it would help? (Score:5, Interesting)
Then we have some people with no formal training who know there stuff and work hard and produce great work.
Similarly, we have folks who have "certifications" that are absolutely meaningless.
Same with our hardware people -- our 17-year-old interns know more about this stuff than the MCSEs.
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
While you're studying for A+ or MCSE, there's some 14-year-old with a soldering iron, learning the hard way how to fix a faulty IDE control, and a 12-year-old decompiling the NT kernel to figure out why his graphics card causes a BSoD. And in ten or fifteen years old, your certification will be obsolete, and if you're lucky, you'll be working for the now-29-year-old VP of engineering.
Satisfied customers not a guarantee of competance (Score:5, Insightful)
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
At the risk of being modded a troll or offtopic, I wanted to draw an analogy here. The statement that you don't want a stamp of approval and that your satisfied customers is all the "proof" of your competance bothers me a little. I see it coming dangerously close to the current state of alternative medicine. Like you, those practioners do not particularly care if they are recognized by the medical community as a legitimate treatment -- they proudly point to their satisfied customers as "proof" that their methods work. I'm not going to go into a long diatribe of how people can be mistaken in their belief that alternative medicine has helped them here (check out QuackWatch [quackwatch.org] for a more detailed explanation). People can be easily fooled. In the process of repairing someone's hard drive, you might actually wipe out the data through your own negligence. Then you simply tell the customer that the hard drive and all the data on board could not be salvaged. Hey, it's not your fault, you tell them, it was simply fried that bad when they brought it to you. Because the customer doesn't know any better, they simply take your word for it. If you do a speedy job of replacing their hard drive, they might very well end up being satisfied customers, completely unaware that YOU were the reason the data was lost.
I'd just like to point out that this attitude that I hear in so many fields about "I don't need credentials. My customers will vouche for me." kind of spooks me a little.
GMD
Re:Do you really think it would help? (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of the time you do have to work very hard to get a Ph.D. It is not true of everyone, and certainly not true of all Ph.Ds, but most of our Ph.D's are in other fields and they only do CS because it pays better than rocket science or whatever they studied. They tend to think they are God's gift -- they are really smart... but they don't think they have to follow the rules/coding standards/etc, and they don't take criticism very well -- you have to argue with them for an hour to convince them that there's something wrong with the code they've written (when there is). I'm sure they don't make any more mistakes than anyone else, but getting those mistakes acknowledged and fixed is just painful.
On the other hand, when they are so inclined, they do tend to write vastly superior documentation. Although, that's maybe one in ten around here.
Absolute nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
My 20+ years worth of non-licensed troubleshooting is far better than any certification, in my opinion. I routinely fix systems that I have never seen before just because I have a knack for it. I think certification is great, but not necessary.
What are we going to discuss next? How about "should all programmers have CS degrees?".
I vote No. (Score:2, Insightful)
Now, after I say that, I would not be comfortable walking into any old shop and getting them to work on my computer without either having a recommendation or very visible credentials. This applies even more strongly if I was to blow 20K, 30K or more on computers for my business.
Basic Certs are Easy (Score:2)
Slight problem. (Score:4, Funny)
Cars aren't broken out of the factory. But a PC with Windows on it? Doesn't seem to fair to me.
Something needs to be done... (Score:2)
That's Just a Burglar Alarm -- Ignore It! [xnewswire.com]
No (Score:5, Insightful)
Responsibility translates to Better Choices (Score:5, Interesting)
And if you think back, to when you actually had to PAY ATTENTION to who was fixing your car, because Uncle Sam was not involved in the decision, you probably got much better service for your dollar, and knew a lot more about the work.
For years I took my car to a shop far from home, because they did good work, knew me personally, even occasionally let me use their tools to do a job myself, etc. I selected them based on reputation, and service, and their record with me personally. Not some license on the wall. And just as importantly, when they started screwing up my car every time it went there, I stopped going. Despite the license on the wall.
We Americans are a lazy bunch. Hey, the gu'mmint says they're licensed, must be okay. Here, Joe, fix my car. I trust you because Uncle Sam does too.
Back in 'the day' when the consumer had to actually pay attention, I'll wager the service was a lot better. Sure there were ripoff artists, and bad stuff happened, but those shops didn't stay around for long.
Just so, today, I'd bet that the overall service is better on computers, BECAUSE there is no regulation.
Just what we need... (Score:3, Insightful)
My certifications include ... (Score:3, Insightful)
PCI card swapping
Case assembly
IDE installation
PC case fan installation (I'm working on CPU fans)
SCSI hard drive installs (but not SCSI CDROMS, tape drives, RAIDS, or other SCSI devices)
AGP video cards
PCxxxx memory (but nothing before 1997) and not Rambus memory
Currently working on CPU install and LRF support (little rubber feet)
GIMME A BREAK!!! Fixing a PC is simple
All this is going to do is make silly tech schools (like the infomercials as seen on TV) more money and make people invest into a career that already doesn't pay that well
I hate it when educational institutions make extra money just because people HAVE to be TRAINED to do something that is REALL easy!
Taking a deep breath now
Just my $0.02 cents
The government doesn't move fast enough (Score:5, Insightful)
And can you imagine the politics? Microsoft would want training for people to repair their hardware spec. Hollywood would want people to take an oath not to disable their copy protection devices that might be enabled some day. Homeland would want a quick scan of the hard drive for those terrorist keywords.
I think we are better off with the unregulated way things are now.
Word of Mouth (Score:4, Interesting)
I have more work than I can handle, and our company is growing carefully. I am ultimately responsible for any work performed on a computer, whether it is done by my boss, or my co-workers, because I take pride in what I do.
Regulation wouldn't help in this regard, but it *might* remove some of the shady/incompetent places, for example Gateway stores.
Not ten minutes ago a new customer came in crying that Gateway had formatted her hard drive to remove a virus. Data backup? What's that? Gateway didn't bother to tell her they were going to do this, they just did it.
As I said, regulation *might* remove these guys from the business, but I think word of mouth will do it faster.
Certs are only worth the paper they are written on (Score:3, Insightful)
Certs required to work on computers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Certification means nothing... voice of experience (Score:5, Insightful)
I said "no more of them". I went to CompUSA next, which was both Apple Certified *AND* CompUSA Certified. The problem was my PB3400c: the trackpad button was failing. So they got it (opening the computer: $180), and said "Well, the trackpad needs replacing, but we can't get another one for another month or so. We can close it up, and let you have it back, or we can hold onto it for a month. But meanwhile, we jury-rigged a sortof fix that might last for a while."
Hmm. It lasted for about a year. I went back; they said "well, it'll be another $180 to open it up again..." I needed it. They opened it. They replaced the trackpad -- but used a missized screw, so it failed again within 4 months. Tough. It's a 3-month warranty.
You know, certification really means nothing. I've repaired each of my powerbooks since then, I've done a better job, and the cost was a 2-3 hours of labor at most.
Requiring legal certification is just going to ensure that the people who are really good and cheap don't get jobs through us users stumbling on them and then sticking with them.
I say leave it to random chance, and just let people publish like crazy on the web who is good, and who isn't worth the screwdriver they wave around.
A+ regulation? (Score:4, Insightful)
When I lost my job a year or two back I had to take a job as the lead tech at Best Buy. On my staff I had 5 A+ Certified "Techs", not one of them worth the paper their certs were printed on. "New Motherboard" was their universal fix. They had NO trouble shooting skills. They knew the difference between the white slots and the brown slots and that's about it.
If there was to be an industry regulation, a new test would have to be developed, one that required basic tech skills, rather than multichoice "What is figure A. called?"
If I've offended any techs proud to be A+ out there, then you're probably one of the ones I was talking about anyways.
Let's learn from the Accounting industry (Score:3)
I think everyone gets the idea. Why should it be any different in our industry?
Job protection for the incompetent (Score:5, Informative)
Laws requiring people to be licensed to do certain things (such as repair plumbing or cut hair) are sold to the public as protection for the public, but, in reality, those regulations are about protecting the people already in a business and keeping prices high for the service. If you honestly think that regulations such as you're proposing will keep out incompetent people, you clearly haven't seen some of the bad haircuts that I've seen from fully licensed haircutters. Do you think the licensing keeps incompetent plumbers from working? Do you think that licensing keeps incompetent people in almost ANY field from working?
Government licensing is popular because it provides barriers to entry into a profession. It makes it harder to compete with the people who are already doing it (and tends to make prices for those services HIGHER than they otherwise would be). But all those things do is create hoops for people to jump through. Any idiot can memorize enough basic facts long enough to get a real estate license, for instance, but that doesn't mean that person is going to be a competent agent. A licensed haircutter isn't necessarily a good haircutter. And a licensed plumber isn't necessarily a good plumber.
The market is what works. If somebody is good at something, you recommend him or her to your friends -- and that person gets more business. If somebody is lousy at something, word gets around and the person has trouble getting work, until he's getting work only from people who are more interested in a cheap price than a quality job. The same is true in ANY field -- even things where we like to pretend that licensing provides a level playing field for everyone, such as with physicians.
Politicians like licensing requirements, because they allow them to tell the voters that they're protecting them, while they're really taking contributions from professional groups of union groups which are eager to lock out competition.
Giving the government the power to decide who is competent to do ANYTHING is crazy. The longer I'm around politics, the more I think that anarchy is a darn good idea.
David
Utility of tech certification is limited (Score:3, Insightful)
My A+ certification says that I have mastered such-and-such skills, identified by bullet points on the certificate. And that's great, but a monkey could pass the A+ exam, it could easily master the specific, exact issues the exam measures. What it doesn't measure is good, ole-fashioned tech-savviness, and I don't think any certification short of a CompSci degree can. The best tech I've ever known is forty years old, former French teacher, just got his cert last year on a whim. And I've known A+ certified techs who couldn't install a hard drive.
Last question first... (Score:5, Interesting)
Constitutionally, the Federal Government has the authority to regulate interstate commerce, and other transactions are left to state and local governments, and to individual citizens. That's the model followed in regulating most industries: Licensing of Professional Engineers is done by each state, and it just happens for convenience that all states have chosen to recognize the standards set forth by the non-governmental American Board of Engineering and Technology. Licensing of local businesses is generally done by county or city agencies.
2) What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any?
As inclined towards libertarianism as I am, I'd tend to say as little as possible. It's a 'buyer beware' world, and if someone other than me is working on my home computer, I'm going to make sure they have a good reputation, even if they are still working their way through college, as my roommate is.
Now, if the people in your community overwhelmingly want some sort of government-imposed consumer protection in this regard, that's up to you. Get your city council or county commissioners to deal with it. But I don't want it imposed on me.
3) Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world?
Not if it prevents people from entering freely into business deals of their own choosing. As I mentioned above, my roommate uses his computer-building and computer-fixing skills to help pay for college, but it's not something he plans on doing for his life once he graduates. He's damned good at building and fixing computers, and he could pass any certification test you could throw at him, and there are plenty of people who would be willing to vouch for him on personal experience with his work. But would it be worth the money a government or private accrediting agency would undoubtedly charge if it's not something he plans to use for more than a few years? Not likely.
And another thought... (Score:5, Insightful)
So why are you complaining? The fact that you're trusted to clean up these mistakes shows that you evidently have the experience/credentials/word-of-mouth-reputation that these fly-by-nighters, consultants, and nephews lack. On your part, you'd make less money if it weren't for two things:
1) Some of your customers were at one point careless with their money.
2) You have something better to offer than their previous servicefolks. Something that allows you to charge more, and forces them to either discount or get Darwinized out of business.
And on the part of your clients, they gain the benefit of wisdom (good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement). Plus, it is worth the money they pay you to have you around to clean up their mistakes.
A bad idea for consumers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Would this benefit the customer? Or would it simply make things more expensive?
IMHO (Score:5, Insightful)
Worthless:
MCP and MCSE
A+ and *+ (everything else +)
CIW
Value:
CCIE
RHCE
Just MHO
No (Score:5, Interesting)
Why don't we craft a new Cert Exam? (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, I'm crazy, nevermind...
Insured yes, licensed no. Guarantees, yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
However, one should be insured for reasonable liability..
This goes for any industry as far as I'm concerned. My Auto mechanic isn't licensed, but his work IS guaranteed.
If they are incompetent they don't stay in business anyway. Sort of self-policing.
Double Edged Sword? (Score:4, Interesting)
I do All my own maintenance and repairs on my 18 year old Audi, and on my GF's 19 year old Audi. I would definitely NOT trust Joe mechanic at the corner gas station or auto shop to fix it. If there is a task that needs completing, and I find that it's too cold outside, or I don't have time - I take it exclusively to my local independant VW/Audi Mechanic. The guy has no education or certifications to speak of, but he's been working on these cars for 25+ years out of passion for these brands. He knows more about them than any "certified" mechanic I've ever meet or heard of. Point being that a certification is not needed to produce a competant technical worker.
On the other hand, I used to work with a guy who has an MCSE (no I'm not bashing all MCSE's here) who didn't know a screw driver from a bus driver. I mean, this guy couldn't even create a simple DOS batch file, was unable to successfully implement a 2-node microsoft cluster in 2 months time, and was clueless about settings in IIS. I also knew a fellow that was an aspiring auto mechanic. Despite having 8 different industry certifications, he was an awful mechanic - and he admitted it. Point here is that a certification definitely does not equal competancy.
I think however that industry regulations would definitely weed out some of the wannabe's, though if it is an expensive or lengthy ordeal, it may deter potential talent.
Just my 2 cents.
"Yup, sounds like you have a virus." (Score:3, Insightful)
I've noticed that when they call a repair shop, no matter what silly little problem they might be seeing, the shop almost always concludes that the person may have a virus, and should bring it in right away (oh, and there will be a nominal $25-$50 fee to check it out). In the past two years I have seen the virus scare tactic used when people's machines:
(1) ran out of disk space -- I've seen that one three times now,
(2) had a dead modem,
(3) had an AGP slot going on the fritz,
(4) had a power switch that was flaking out,
(5) had a spent inkjet cartridge -- my favorite... oh yeah, it's a virus...
So that's seven incidents in two years with responses from everything ranging from CompUSA to the local nerd-on-the-corner. Usually I'd start out just recommending they call somebody else, but when they hit the third or fourth place claiming it was a virus, I'd break down and fix it for them -- and hopefully educate them a little in the process. (So far I've only seen one case where somebody actually had any actual mal-ware, and in that case her moron boyfriend had downloaded a fake porn EXE which proceeded to delete files. Idiot.)
On top of the virus scam, I've seen a number of very minor problems in which the shop told the person they needed a whole new computer, when it was really just a bad video card or something equally simple. I think they reserve the Big Whammy of a new machine for the scary times when the computer doesn't seem to do anything at all when the user hits the power.
These experiences have forced me to conclude that most computer repair people are either fantastically (and improbably) incompetent, or they're just outright con artists looking to scam money from people who don't know any better.
Timing is everything (Score:3, Insightful)
What a bargain.
Re:a+ makes you proficient? (Score:2)
I can't help but snicker everytime I see some punk bragging about A+ (or even MSCE).
It's more of a trap so dumb people end up spending money on a certificate that they beleive will land them more jobs.
Even more annoying is management usually falls for it.
Re:A+ certified people are the dumbest of the fiel (Score:5, Insightful)
When I worked for DEC they had a rule, "A+ or your ass is gone." To keep a job, certs come in real handy. To get a (new) job, certs come in real handy, too. Some employers (prospective or otherwise) may not care about how long you've done something, or if you've been in the field forever, but if you have the cred to "prove it."
Re:licensing software engineers (Score:3, Insightful)
NOW HERE IS A TOPIC WORTH DISCUSSING!!!
Hardware is EASY!
1) Plug stuff in
2) Flip on power switch
3) Watch it go
But software
Make this the next topic!