Rolling Out Mozilla in an Organization? 486
jdclucidly asks: "I am a network administrator for a small non-profit (about 50 employees). I would like to roll Mozilla 1.2.1 out to all of our desktops. We don't have a single ghost image because the computers on site are too varied. Yes, I did my Googling. The source for the installer is just huge and mind boggling. Is there something like a Mozilla Administration Kit that will generate custom Mozilla installers? If not, would people on Slashdot be interested in starting a new project to make such a kit?" If you were going to deploy a "branded" version of Mozilla, company-wide, how would you do it, especially if you had to worry about a mixed OS environment?
"Here's what I want to do:
- Install everything but Quality Feedback Agent
- Set Mozilla as the default browser
- Disable 'Open Unrequested Windows' (kill pop-ups)
- Install Elveraldo's Crystal-Classic theme as default
- Set Google as the default search engine
- Set 'Georgia' as the default Serif font for Western and Unicode
- Enable HTTP Pipelining
- Enable FIPS internal cryptography
- Set toolbar to 'Pictures only'
- Set Home Page to my organization's intranet site
- Set start page to 'Blank page'
- Disable 'Hide the tab bar'
- Enable Middle-click for new tab
- Enable control+enter for new tab
- Default downloads to 'open a progress dialog'
- Disable Javascript and Plugins for Mail & News
- Enable quicklaunch
- Create an additional shortcut on the desktop and in quicklaunch that uses chrome/icons/mailnew.ico as it's source and points to 'mozilla.exe -mail'
I installed Mozilla on my machine using the stub installer and had it save all of the .XPI components to a folder. I went in and extracted the .XPI's and examined them. It seems possible to do these things but not without learning XUL, JavaScript, XML and Mozilla.org's own stuffings -- not to mention setting up a Visual C++/Cygwin compiling farm for every next Mozilla release. Can I:
- Directly modify the defaults/prefs/all.js file to incorporate my preference defaults above and then recompress the .XPI?
- Add to the installer Crystal-Classic.jar somehow? Where are those changes made?
- Make the installer NOT allow the user to change any of this?
- Make the installer create the above mentioned shortcut?"
Well... (Score:2)
Georgia?! (Score:2, Funny)
just copy the directory (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:just copy the directory (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:just copy the directory (Score:5, Informative)
The way I have Mozilla set on our NT4 machines is to use the profile editor (name?), delete the default, create my own (named modlang, being that I run the modlang computer lab) profile, put it under mozilla.org in the program files directory, set everything to the way I want (popup blocking, default homepage, etc) and then simply copy mozilla.org directory (with mozilla already being installed on the profile creating machine) to each target machine.
The tricky part was figuring out that I needed to copy the registry.dat to default user's application data directory, after figuring that out it is cake.
Re:just copy the directory (Score:3, Informative)
Also he wants to make it default browser, so he need to update some registry keys.
Re:just copy the directory (Score:3, Interesting)
How about NSIS? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:just copy the directory (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:just copy the directory (Score:3, Informative)
It needs registry for Quicklaunch and dflt browser (Score:5, Informative)
REGEDIT4
r entVersion\Run]Z ILLA.EXE\" -turbo"
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Cur
"Mozilla Quick Launch"="\"C:\\PROGRA~1\\MOZILLA.ORG\\MOZILLA\\MO
Other registry entries might be necessary to set Mozilla as the default browser.
Other handy tips for mozilla configuration (such as locked config items, automatically generated personal config, etc) can be found at http://www.alain.knaff.lu/howto/MozillaCustomizati on/ [knaff.lu]
This is used in the schools participating in the LLL [www.lll.lu] project.
Some Highlights:
Re:just copy the directory (Score:3, Interesting)
If this is totally true, and you can just copy the directory then all you have to deal with is this-
Buy Wise installer or some other installer App (perhaps 1 for each OS, can't imagine it would be more than 3)
1) If what was stated is true (that you can simply copy the folders) then make an installer based on your one computer's Moz setup.
2) This will compress your files.
3) You can add any extra files you want (.jar or otherwise) Install those as well, or even make seperate installers for the jar files, and simply include them in the installer. You can put these files anywhere you want on their system as well, simple point, click and naming folders and such, it's very easy.
4) Any variations of versions of an OS (say windows 95 vs Windows XP) can be detected using scripting in the Wise installer (or hopefully any other installer you use) and then you can install different files based on the version of the OS.
5) You would maintain total control of how the installer puts files on the end users computer. (One installer I made when ran, didn't ask the user anything, just opened up, installed the files and then closed.)
6) Any and all shortcuts, and folder groups are all super cake and easy to setup with a good installer application. I highly recommend wise if you do any installing on windows.
7) A simple wise for windows installer 4 standard edition is $450, with all the power and ease of use you get for it, you will find it can help you with many other things to install besides this. You can make installers to install installers, just to get past people screwing up things. :) (like automated button clicks and the such) though I have only experimented with these things a little.
8) If you have the money and the time to learn the more robust installers, you may be able to do even more than the above.
-v
Priorities (Score:3, Insightful)
IMHO of course.
Re:Priorities (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Priorities (Score:3, Insightful)
Automate It (Score:2, Informative)
Uhh... this is what you DON'T want to do (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Uhh... this is what you DON'T want to do (Score:2)
IE is a different matter, because installing IE is different for every rev of windows (95OSRB,C,D, 98, 98SE, 2k, sp1/2/3/4/5/6etc).
But mozilla should run just fine from a Snappshot.
Re:Uhh... this is what you DON'T want to do (Score:3, Interesting)
Mozilla is easy to deploy, but a bitch to configure. See my other note in this thread for that nightmare...
Re:Uhh... this is what you DON'T want to do (Score:2)
I don't think any of these solutions support multiple OS's
Cross Platform (Score:2)
That, and the fact that most of them can actually handle an entire OS image.
Of course, some solutions work better than others...
Re:Uhh... this is what you DON'T want to do (Score:2)
Re:Uhh... this is what you DON'T want to do (Score:5, Informative)
1. WinInstall handles win9x and winnt/2k/XP clients differently.
2. All the systems you mentioned cost money. A significant amount of money.
3. SMS will only work with Microsoft stuff and it kinda sucks, although I heard the new version is ok. Just expect vendor lock-in.
4. Novell Zenworks will require an NT server or a Novell server, and the version that I used put all the files in NDS. You couldn't edit them or do much with them after you did a scan. WinInstall blew them out of the water.
The core reason you use an unatended install is the EXCACT reason this guy wants one and WinInstall isn't such a good option. He has 50 desktops probably all different. Some have multiple drives some don't. If you made a WinInstall or SMS or ZenWorks package to do this type of install, you better be great a building those packages, because you will be using your "test" machine as a template for all the desktops in the organization. If for some reason that test machine had a DLL that the other 40 didn't have...
typical (Score:4, Insightful)
This is pretty typical: in order to get even the simplest task done on Windows, the usual answer is: get another software package.
the money you spend will save you $$$ in man-hours trying
First, you are going to spend many man hours getting your manager to approve the purchase and order the applications. Then you are going to spend many more man hours installing them. Then you are going to spend many man hours trying to figure them out. Then you are going to spend even more man hours fiddling around with them trying to package up Mozilla. Then, you still need to figure out how to get the packages themselves or the client packages for those packages onto the clients. Then, if everything goes really well, you may be ready to install the software.
And when some major software upgrade comes from Microsoft or these vendors, you can start pretty much from square one.
That's of course assuming that those packages are completely bug free. More than likely, they will interact in some unknown way with some other software package and mess up something or other.
hackneyed, crappy homebrew solution in the long run
Professional chefs use a couple of knives to get the job done: they are reliable, predictable, simple, and efficient. Amateurs run out and buy every kitchen appliance under the sun, hoping to compensate with appliances for skills that they lack. It's no different with system management: if you don't know what you are doing, your answer is going to be: "oh, just buy another piece of software".
Windows, unfortunately, doesn't ship with any knives, but with Cygwin and Perl, you can get by. System management on Windows still like preparing a banquet in a kitchenette, but you don't need to make the effort even harder by stuffing the kitchenette full with useless junk.
Re: (Score:2)
Ok, I'll take a shot. (Score:3, Interesting)
Make one install on your PC. Setup all of the preferences how you want them.
Copy the .mozilla directory (or whatever) to wherever you plan on installing this from. chmod a-w on it for *nix users, set permissions accordingly on it for Windows.
Put your .jar theme where it needs to be
Install on everyone else's PCs and just copy the preferences folder via a script or by hand.
Profit!
It such a small number of people, it should be painless to do it by hand anyways.
The easy way... (Score:5, Funny)
It' won't be easy... (Score:5, Interesting)
First of all, Mozilla doesn't understand UNC paths. If your GPO redirects %appdata%, you're screwed. Quit now. The mozilla registry.dat file goes in %appdata%\mozilla and if %appdata% is in a UNC of DFS share, it won't find it.
Then ... if you allow users to create profiles in the default location, below %appdata%\mozilla, expect profiles to go missing. Windows has a nasty habit of duplicating roaming profiles, like profiles\user, profiles\user.domain, profiles\user.domain.000, etc... Since your profile location is a hardcoded path in registry.dat, Mozilla will find it, but will try to load the profile in the stale profile location. If that doesn't exist now, it'll throw up a profile manager asking you to recreate one.
The solution to above is to create the profile manually via a command like:
That will move the bulk of the profile (except registry.dat) to a fixed location out of the roaming profile.
For a lot more detail and my rant, read bug #162025, comment #28.
We have done a lot to get it working finally, including some logon vbscripts to create the profiles, repair prefs.js file, have some mandatory prefs.js entries that are replaced during logon if user changes them (like home page for us), etc...
We've been through hell but think we finally have it licked by working around mozilla bugs. We intend to post a page on our experiences, but not in the next 12 hours (the effective life of a slashdot story)
When it's ready, I'll e-mail you or feel free to contact me if you want the scripts as they stand now (we are still debugging some things).
Re:It' won't be easy... (Score:2)
Re:It' won't be easy... (Score:2)
GPO (Group Policy Objects) is an Active Directory thing. I don't believe Samba support that (yet) so it's probably n/a in your case.
A lot of installations try to redirect everything they can out of the roaming profile because roaming profiles are the most evil and most horribly implemented thing that Microsoft has ever hoisted upon IT departments.
Re:It' won't be easy... (Score:5, Informative)
We have seen this behaviour too. However, apparently, as far as we could see, it would only happen on Win2k, on NTFS partitions. Win2k + FAT32 was ok. So, what we did was create a small D: partition as FAT32, and configured Windows to store the cached user profile on that partition. From then on, our "multiple profiles" problem was gone.
Since your profile location is a hardcoded path in registry.dat, Mozilla will find it, but will try to load the profile in the stale profile location. If that doesn't exist now, it'll throw up a profile manager asking you to recreate one.
Or just store the profile somewhere on the user's home directory (H:\Mozilla\)
No need to bother with vbscript. Just use locked settings in the mozilla.cfg file. This page [knaff.lu] described how. Just insert entries such as the following into your mozilla.cfg.txt:
Then encrypt the file to mozilla.cfg using this program [knaff.lu] (with an offset of 13). N.B. The mozilla.cfg.txt file must start with a comment (two slashes), and be referenced from all.js or else it will be ignored by mozilla. After having set up a mozilla.cfg, the user can no longer change the relevant settings (they are greyed out), and even if he does manually edit his prefs.js, mozilla will fix prefs.js the next time it starts up.
Question... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Question... (Score:3, Insightful)
Alex
Re:Question... (Score:2, Insightful)
**These machines are not for your personal use.** Please reread that statement again and again when you feel like it's "Your Computer". If you didn't pay for it, it ain't. If you did, and you're accessing a corporate network, you are still subject to the rules of your employer/contractee. The computers you were provided as PART OF YOUR EMPLOYMENT are a tool you use to get your job done. Microsoft spent millions of dollars and countless man-hours on the multitude of color schemes you can pick from. Use one of those. If I find non-approved themes of software, it's gone. That's how it works, and makes less downtime for you and less headache for me.
Re:Question... (Score:4, Insightful)
You aren't working with robots. People personalize their space to make it more comfortable to work in; lock them in cold blank walls with everything ISO-standard, they won't be happy. Give an inch.
Pink fonts in Monotype Corsiva on a light blue background makes it tough for me to troubleshoot.
Remember who uses the computer day in and day out. Not you.
Please reread that statement again and again when you feel like it's "Your Computer".
It's not "Your Computer", either. I'm not saying you should let pirate software and porn run around the computers, but complaining when the people that use the things change the fonts and colors to something that will make them more comfortable is excessive. Would you complain if someone moved the chair in the company car?
Re:Question... (Score:4, Insightful)
A genius in a sea of stupidity. How do you deal with it?
Re:Question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now why would you do that? The desk is not for your personal use, it's the property of the company, if you didn't pay for it, it ain't yours.
Do you fiddle with the settings on your office chair?
Now why would you do that? The chair is not for your personal use, it's the property of the company. It isn't any of the company's business what settings on the chair are most comfortable for you. Personalisation does not benefit the company.
I wish more end users would remember that.
(</sarcastic-rant> for those who need it)
The computer, just like any other accessory you use in your workplace must allow for some personalisation.
As an IT drone, it is not your job to dictate what background picture/colour I have. If having BIG white letters on a black background increases my productivity, you, on behalf of the company, should be happy, even though it means you'll get to spend a few more minutes with me in the event that I need some help.
Dispite what you may have read when reading the BOFH archives, the system administrator should NOT get to dictate every single detail about the computing environment in the workplace.
Re:Question... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not advocating a total lockdown. But some simple constraints can enormously streamline admin time and user time - I've known many, many users who will spend hours mucking about with desktop colors/schemes, surfing for 'just that right' background image, etc. Yes, they should be fired for wasting time; if they stood around the water cooler that long they'd surely be noticed.
I'd be interested in the feedback from admins who've worked at other LARGE corporations - I'm talking thousands of desktops here, not ten or twenty.
*These machines are not for your display of power* (Score:5, Insightful)
Those machines are also not there for the IT staff to use for some kind of power trip. Those machines are there to provide value to the company, which they presumably do when the users are working on them, not you. If the customizations they do make them work more effectively (translation: more motivated), that is good for the company. Certainly if they install viruses and stuff that creates trouble you need to take action, but the whining about text and background images is pathetic.
Somehow I thought that kind of tayloristic management (your desktop will show in 0.04 seconds faster if you don't have a background image) became almost extinct long ago. If you treat people like machines, they also react very cynical - and do as little work as possible without getting fired. Since there's an economic downturn I guess people will stick around - but if all your best men leave when it starts going up, I can't say I'm surprised. I wouldn't want to stick around at least...
Kjella
Good point! (Score:5, Funny)
What, you just said you are going to use Mozilla? You will trust our company security to some FREEWARE when Microsoft has made security the company's first priority for the whole year??? Right here I have a resume of a Visual Basic programmer who wants to migrate our e-commerce server to IIS, SQL server and server-side VBSCript, using Microsoft passport security architecture. I think I would give him a call. Certainly PROPRIETORY SOFTWARE is better than all the FREE-WARE you installed on our network...
But.... (Score:3, Funny)
Just look in the "Top-Left" corner of the screen.
You will find a picture of a computer and it says "My Computer".
Therefor it is. My Computer!...
Re:Question... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My Environment vs My Computer (Score:3, Insightful)
Even if we aren't working over night rolling out a new hosting server. If we are not cabling the building over the weekend. We still vigilantly carry a pager or some other device that gets computer and network monitoring alerts.
You'd be shocked to know what some of the most inept computer doods know and can do.
And one other thing, they (Systems Administrators, Database Administrators, Datacenter Techs, NOC Monitors
Not our computers!? Well no, we don't own the company. Or do we!? We control every little tid-bit of data, if we don't than we are not doing our jobs. Its not just a job its a passion, and we do it well or we wouldn't still be helping our clients the users.
Companies like our bodies don't function correctly if something is missing. In this analogy the sales department are the hands extending out. Marketing would be the mouth showing our perly whites. R&D obviously the brain.
But where should we put IT, (using IT as an all encompassing term) I would have to say that IT makes up the nervous system (and spread the term back out as you see fit). I guess it's natural to have a few free radicals running around messing with your settings on your corporate workstation. And we haven't even mentioned the user/security issues.
Perhaps you'd like to take a field day (cross matrix training thingie) and be a SysAdmins sounding board. He can ask you questions and you can give him the answers to all his problems!?
My rant for the evening.
Have you thanked your Systems Administrator lately!?
Web Browser Kiosk Build-Experience (Score:5, Informative)
Your probably already know this, but I'll point out the obvious:
1. Set up a Ghost server for yourself. Maybe even look at a copy of Alteris LabExpert [altiris.com].
2. Backup often.
3. Set yourself a timeline with mile markers. Give yourself a few months, so you don't pull out your hair or have a mental break down. Plan a reasonable project timeline, such as 3 months.
4. Set up testing workstations. Get all of your networking issues out of the way before you start on Mozilla. TCP/IP or other protocol stacks should already be installed. All device drivers should already be installed.
5. Take the list which you've already made, and make the changes to the box. When you get the change to work, backup the box with your image server. Keep detailed notes of what you've just accomplished.
6. Repeat step 5 until all items are completed.
7. When step 6 is completed, backup the workstation, diff the image if needed, and push it onto workstations of similar hardware configuration. Either package the image as an application (tar, zip), an application image (ZenWorks, Active Directory resource, Ghost, etc), or an operating system image (SMS, Alteris, Ghost).
Once you get into the groove of the project, it'll go quickly.
Sorry for stating the obvious, but you're talking about a fairly complex network engineering task. Don't expect it to happen next week or even next month. Just make sure you have an imaging server and that you take good notes, and the project will go fine.
Some simple ideas. (Score:4, Interesting)
Use the first installation(full version) to generate all the files that contain the settings you want for each machine. And copy them to each machine after installing the crippled mozilla on them.
You should be able to achiave your goals like this, if each machine requires uniqe settings(email and such) then you have some work to do, but it should'nt be impossible.
Re:Some simple ideas. (Score:2)
Re:Some simple ideas. (Score:3, Informative)
There is also use a defaultPref command for setting defaults that the user may change.
Check this page [knaff.lu] for more details.
Granted, this is not foolproof (the user could use the same method as described here to change his settings), but you can make it difficult enough by making the mozilla.cfg file writeable only by the Administrator.
Sysprep for varying hardware (Score:3, Interesting)
At the university where I am the network administrator, we use Microsoft's sysprep in conjunction with our Ghost images. If you run sysprep on your master machine before taking your Ghost image, Windows 2000 for instance will rebuild it's P-n-P database the first time it boots on a target machine and load all of the necessary drivers for the different hardware.
You can check out sysprep here [microsoft.com].
If, however, hardware is not your problem with deploying a single Ghost image, I'm sorry for the wasted bandwidth.
I feel so dirty. I'm a Mac guy giving advice for Windows. I'm going to shower now.
SiO2
I recommend... (Score:3, Funny)
ah netscape modified installers keeps MS away (Score:2, Interesting)
check http://www.netscape.com for details..
schools usually use this method because their needes are similar to yours..
I was thinking of doing this (Score:4, Informative)
CCK and other items (Score:5, Informative)
Most of the features can be edited with notepad in the prefs file, found in default/pref/all.js (and all-ns.js for Netscape builds). However, these are the few that I believe are not possible to change with those files:
To change your setup options, you'll need to edit the SETUP.INI (or is it CONFIG.INI? i don't remember) file found with the install files. Note that if you use Netscape 7's CCK, you'll need to do this to expose the Instant Messenger option (and then disable that), since Netscape 7 only allows you to select both Mail and IM, not either/or.
I would also advise against not installing QFA. It's what allows the Mozilla/Netscape developers to figure out why crashes are happening and what they can do to fix it. It truly is the least you can do to contribute back to the project.
You CAN unzip the XPIs, edit the files, and rezip them. For more information on this, consult the CCK documentation that Netscape produces (it's actually helpful in this case). Using Winzip, all you'll have to do is make sure that you preserve the directory structure (Winzip doesn't make it immediately clear how the directories within a ZIP are organized...Winrar is better at this), and then rename the resulting .ZIP file to .XPI. (PDF LINK [netscape.com])
Winzip Self extractor (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Winzip Self extractor (Score:2)
First off why would he switch to an inferior browser? Second I don't he want's to deal with 50 users installing WMP 9, Movie Maker, driver updates and whatever else users can find check boxes for when they visit windowsupdate.
Wait for users? No, use SUS! (Score:3, Interesting)
What is SUS, you say?
How do I install this?
@echo off
copy wuau22.msi \\%1\c$
psexec \\%1 c:\winnt\system32\msiexec.exe
echo Done with computer %1!
PSExec is a Free (again, beer) tool from Sysinternals. If you don't already have it (shame on you!) you can get it here [sysinternals.com].
Okay, how does this work?
Caveats:
Anyway, check out the link at the top of this post, and RTFWP (White Paper) on that site. It will tell you all you want to know about SUS
Danke
Here is what you want (Score:4, Informative)
It should be able to install Georga as font on the machine if it is not already there. I will leave it up to you to figure out if you are violating any copyrights/software agreements by doing such.
Bart Bucks are not legal tender
site customization for mail (Score:2, Informative)
install on a shared read-only drive? (Score:2, Insightful)
It doesn't. It wants to put crap on the C: drive.
What's the Big Deal? (Score:2)
Win32 architecture solution... (Score:4, Interesting)
I recommend using InstallRite [epsilonsquared.com] by Epsilon Squared Inc. [epsilonsquared.com] to automate installation of any application on multiple PCs with different hardware and software configurations.
It's easy to use and the documentation is good, IMHO. A big plus is that it is Freeware. Checking it out might be beneficial to you.
Ask Ben over a Beonex.com (Score:4, Interesting)
Check out this bug on bugzilla [mozilla.org] where the start of roaming profile code exists for your compiling and testing pleasure. roaming profile setup IMHO is the way to go if folks use at different machines at different times. Outside of what's in the works...for now, I'd manually configure one for each platform and copy the folder over. Several different XPI's can be rolled into one, but it does take some hacking skills.
Later this year, Hopefully, roaming will be up and running in Mozilla and with that bwill likely come some nice deployment tools.
This may or may not be helpful (Score:2)
Why do you need to do this? (Score:4, Insightful)
If all your users use Windows then why do you need to switch them? I am using mozilla to type this and its a great browser but alot of websites send my "connection refused" errors because I do not use IE. It takes alot of man hours and hassle to upgrade all the users not to mention can cause complaints if your users recieve the same error messages that I do on a few sites.
I know Microsoft is a bully and want to prevent users from switching since IE is free and comes standard with every computer, but there really is inertia that locks people in.
You have to ask yourself time is it really worth it to switch them? And also what benefits will it bring to your organization.
Re:Why do you need to do this? (Score:4, Insightful)
It always rubs me the wrong way when geeks here on slashdot argue how perfect the world would be if all the hack web authors wrote "properly coded" websites. It is just a undeniable reality that the web is chock full of wrongly-coded, badly-coded, intentionally-broken code, and it is important that any browser degrade gracefully under such circumstances[, at which Mozilla does a very respectable job].
Sitting back in a chair and ruminating about "properly coded" sites is not an option.
More on topic, I think that it is a huge mistake if the original poster forces his [ahem, non-standard] choice on the unsuspecting users. As IE is already installed on all Windows desktops already, and since all websites are written with IE as the target, he is setting himself up for a rude awakening.
Re:Why do you need to do this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, some people take the only option that will help reduce the number of non-standards-complian sites, and that's increasing the number of non-MS browsers. What are you doing about the situation?
Our users like mozilla (after they have used it for a while and see how much better it is). Why should they have to use something else to access a website?
More on topic, I think that it is a huge mistake if the original poster forces his [ahem, non-standard] choice on the unsuspecting users. As IE is already installed on all Windows desktops already, and since all websites are written with IE as the target, he is setting himself up for a rude awakening.
How so? Since IE is *still* on the desktops, the users can use IE if they get to a site that sucks. And they can do the evangelisation.
Remember that supporting IE has it's own headaches (security vulnerabilities go unfixed for months). It's the admin's choice what he wants to support, unless management has directed what to use, which normally isn't the case in small companies (since management doesn't know enough to choose).
Only on Slashdot... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Only on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Don't use Mozilla (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Don't use Mozilla (Score:2)
you're running a very strange and different setup to the rest of the world.
Ctrl+t opens a new tab BTW.
Phoenix is the coolest thing since sliced bread in this small non-technical office.
Re:Don't use Mozilla (Score:2)
Easier transition... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Easier transition... (Score:2)
I agree with your points, when I first moved over to mozilla I would constantly hit ctrl+enter expecting the autocomplete, but anymore, I can't stand using IE, I need tabs, and the autocomplete functionality doesn't speed things up too much.
of course, I've learned from this thread that alt+enter does what ctrl+enter does in mozilla, hmm so maybe I'll start using phoenix more, cause having both would be nice!
Re:Easier transition... (Score:2)
so ctrl+alt+enter is great! haha! maybe I'm addicted to phoenix now!
lol, how easily I'm pleased
Re:Easier transition... (Score:3, Funny)
so ctrl+alt+enter is great! haha! maybe I'm addicted to phoenix now! lol, how easily I'm pleased :)
If you love that, check out what ctl+alt+backspace does in mozilla.
Re:Don't use Mozilla (Score:2)
Re:Don't use Mozilla (Score:2)
HTF did parent get to +5? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Don't use Mozilla (Score:2)
Don't ignore the question (Score:5, Insightful)
Knee, meet Jerk. Jerk, meet Knee. Apparently neither Vallon nor his 3 or 4 moderators bothered to read the freaking question. The IT guy specifically wants to use the mail client as well as the browser, and probably NNTP too.
Just because Phoenix is small and 1337 doesn't mean it's the answer to world peace, minty fresh breath, or every question that contains the word "Mozilla".
Stick with Moz not Phoenix (Score:4, Informative)
Also the Mozilla development staff has been axed as well, so it too has slowed down at a very critical time when there have been a ton of regressions.
I'm a big fan of Mozilla(its all I use), so I hate to say these things which some people will undoubtably call FUD. But its not FUD and if you follow the project closely you'll know I'm not making this stuff up. Right now Mozilla is going through a very tough time and I really hope some new blood can come in to save it.
You'll excuse me for being a coward and not signing my name, but sorry that the way this has to be.
Wrong suggestion... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:A few suggestions (Score:2)
lisez l'article (Score:2)
Re:lisez l'article (Score:2)
I used to play around with the CCK for 4.x when it first came out and I found I could remove the the proprietary crap easily enough. I'd also be suprised if you couldn't substitute Moz in instead of NS7 with the current CCK.
/mike
Re:How about the Client Customization Kit? (Score:3, Informative)
How about understanding what I posted? I find a brain works well for that sort of thing.
/mike
Re:I'll address this. (Score:2)
What confuses me is why the postser asks "Is there something like a Mozilla Administration Kit" and then goes on to answer {his|her} own question. Turkey.
/me goes and hides in a corner.
Re:Tip of the Week (Score:2, Insightful)
Also, for the poster, I'd just have someone do it. Burn all the installer files for whatever platforms you're supporting to a cd and carry it from station to stations. Or share it on a network and do a network install. You'd be surprised how fast you can do them all after you've got the first ten or so done. Seriously, a good tech could do this in an afternoon, or a day at most. Plus it's good for the soul.
-dameron
Re:Are you out of your fucking mind? (Score:2)
Re:Tip of the Week (Score:3, Insightful)
No other reasons are given.
The FACT that applying the constant flow of security patches for IE is way harder and time consuming than using Mozilla doesn't seem important for you. IE is from Microsoft, go with IE. That's all what seems to matter to you.
Also IE being integrated in Windows is kinda problematic. IE updates may affect the rest of the system - Mozilla is independent from Windows, therefore much better to control and maintain. On top of that, you can EASILY have as many different Mozilla installations on your PC. (which can be useful on upgrading - if you don't want to take any risks just add the new version instead of replacing the old version). Also you can also downgrade Mozilla, but last time I checked, the only way to downgrade IE is to reinstall Windows... Mozilla is easier to integrate and support than IE and upgrading is much safer.
And most importantly, Mozilla does not chain you to a vendor. Microsoft may raise license prices anytime - again. It happened before, it can happen again.
Re:Tip of the Week (Score:2)
"IE updates may affect the rest of the system" - yeah, like eliminating security holes. You HAVE to patch IE if you are running Windows. Using Mozilla doesn't change that - it just adds to what you have to patch. Granted - a bug in Mozilla is probably not a security hole, but using Mozilla does not reduce the number of patches you have to apply.
Support wise - it's easier to support one browser than two, and if you can FORCE employees not to use IE, then yeah, supporting (ie helping people use) Mozilla might be easier.
This is a pragmatic viewpoint, of course. In principle, IE + Windows should be tossed on the scrapheap, but that's a post for another day.
Re:Tip of the Week (Score:2)
Re:Tip of the Week (Score:3, Insightful)
Real websites are built to standards [w3.org], not on browsers [microsoft.com] that occasionally take liberties with those standards.
Why not? A site that works fine in $BROWSER_X but is a mess in $BROWSER_Y is a pretty sh*tty website. I'm not claiming that a site will render identically between two browsers...compare Mozilla for Win32 and Mozilla for Linux (the latter tends to choose font sizes that are too small). However, identical rendering isn't even the stated goal of HTML. (It's somewhat addressed by CSS, but even there you should expect some variability.) It is not at all unreasonable to expect a website to be functional when accessed with any browser. The path you'd take would only lead to further balkanization of the Web.
Re:Doing it with IE (Score:2)
Oh yeah, and about those mod points... karma is irrelevant on
Re:Doing it with my friend's Mom.. (Score:2)
All I did was *suggested* that he gave it a try. It was ontopic despite what YOU think and judging from your past comments I think you just made that comment because of some deep felt M$ resentment.
You should never let your personal opinions get in the way of getting a task accomplished unless there is a moral dilmena contained within the solution. Arguably there might be a moral dilema in using IEAK, but getting his solution deployed quickly might actually outweigh any moral obligations he might feel.
As one COO put it to me once, it's just software, pick any of them.
Re:Doing it with my friend's Mom.. (Score:2)
Liar. It certainly is possible to do it without messing with code.
"Arguably there might be a moral dilema in using IEAK, but getting his solution deployed quickly might actually outweigh any moral obligations he might feel."
If you are able to sell your moral convictions then you never had them in the first place.
Re:Doing it with my friend's Mom.. (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't have to be a mozilla developer. Writing install scripts, javascript, or xul is pretty easy for just about anybody. Hell even if you simply documented what to do it would be a HUGE help.
"Modifications to the source *should* be made/will likely be required. "
Once again this is not true. There are many posts on this subject now which explain what needs to get done and none of them require source changes.
"MacOSX already handles users and seperating settings between users - it follows that Mozilla should use these more refined more standard methods rather than invent their own."
I am going to try a few experiments but I bet I can even use a centralized install of mozilla. Just install it in one place and have multiple users use it.
Re:Lockout users (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously you can't prevent the user from changing preferences in the browser after it is installed (nor would you want to), but starting with a common baseline for all users simplifies support concerns immensely.
Re:Pop-up killers? (Score:3, Insightful)
http://nytimes.com/
http://home.netscape.com/
http://aol.com/
http://my.yaho
http://msnbc.com/
none of them are appropriate for the workplace?
--Asa
Re:Gov gotcha (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't remember what it's called or where to get it, and it didn't work for me (a lot of help I am).
But there's a plugin for Mozilla that lets you change the UserAgent string without physically modifing prefs.js. In my experience with Konqueror (an inferior browser, imho) sites that check aren't checking for a good reason. :) I strongly suspect that unless the site requires an activex plugin you won't have any trouble at all with it in Mozilla, you just have to get the UserAgent string to lie and say it's IE.
Re:I'd do a centralized installation and use X (Score:3, Informative)
However, eventually we gave up on this setup due to bandwidth considerations: it takes a much higher bandwidth to send X commands (containing uncompressed bitmaps) over the network, than it does to send html, gifs and jpegs. So, eventually, we moved to a solution where the browser runs natively on Windows (first netscape, now mozilla), and the Linux box does only the squid caching (for better usage of our WAN connectivity) and file serving (for roaming profiles).
(Of course, the Linux box does lots of other stuff as well (print serving, web server, firewall, user administration, udpcast server, ...), but these are unrelated to the browser issue that we are discussing here ;-) )