Internships in the Post-DotCom Era? 660
aetherspoon asks: "Reading the Internship at Microsoft story, I was wondering what paid jobs were actually still out there for CS majors in the industry. Coming from a CS major who has a stack of 'We're sorry, but...' letters sitting on his desk, I know that I have not had much luck in this area. Are there any places left offering good paid internships?"
well (Score:5, Funny)
Well, yeah... (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:well (Score:5, Funny)
oh well, at least counterstrike still loves me.
--
go on, ask [codenewbie.com] your newbie coding questions. we probably won't make fun of you.
Re:CS (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, the interviewer tossed me out of the building when he discovered my CS degree actually referred to 4 solid years playing CounterStrike
Well, I got the last laugh when I hacked the company's game server, and wiped the floor with that bozo. Yeah, like he's going to dare enter that gameroom now. ha!
Re:well (Score:3, Funny)
Or you could always be an orderly.
Anyhow, back to the deep brain stimulator thing, that's a really interesting up and coming field that deals with putting in implants into the brain (one of the main reasons is parkinsons patients with really bad tremors) that need to be programmed. Usually that duty is placed in the hands of a Practicioner specializing in neurology, but if you majored in CS and minored in medicine/neuroscience, then you may be in good shape for that.
Or you could be an orderly.
Also, if you know your math, science, and computer skills well enough, you could be a teacher... Teacher certification is fairly easy to get, from what I hear, and it's a field with very good job security for people who know their math and science.
Or you could be an orderly or something. Ok, so maybe I need a new job. (jk)
What Aboot the MIS Grad? (Score:4, Informative)
The dotCOM market is now featured in many INFOMERCIAL.
That's a sign of the time.
Re:What Aboot the MIS Grad? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What Aboot the MIS Grad? (Score:4, Insightful)
I had a debate with a friend a year or two ago about doing a startup or jumping into a small biz, or applying for a cubicle. He did the former; me the latter.
After his constant job-hopping, he's struggling still and I have been moving up through the ranks slowly by simply living in a box. My technical abilities have stayed sharp and my schedule is reliable and reasonable.
If you can adjust your cost-of-living accordingly, a cubicle is a safe place to be right now. I content to not chase the glory just so I can pay for a beer at the end of the week.
mug
Just tough it out. (Score:5, Insightful)
The experience pays off loads more in the long run. Trust me on this one. I make over 60k in oklahoma of all places, and with my contracts and side jobs I make over 150k combined (although i'm very lucky in my relationships).
Hard work pays off if you do what Scrooge McDuck said "Work smarter not harder!". Best lesson ever from a stupid Disney cartoon.
Internships are way down. (Score:3, Funny)
tap.tap.tap. is this thing on?
The White House used to have a good program (Score:4, Funny)
From what I understand, they've cancelled the program, though.
Re:The White House used to have a good program (Score:2)
Contiune your education... (Score:5, Insightful)
Good luck.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:2, Insightful)
This is what everyone else thought too. Consequently, Grad schools have never been harder to get in to. So now, in 2 or 3 years, we will have millions of unemployed computer people with a much better education.
I should have gone with Physics or Chemistry. We will always need Physicists and Chemists.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:4, Funny)
PhD not a good way to get a job (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead I would suggest doing a degree in a different field, hopefully a complementary field and moving yourself into a niche which few other people are qualified to compete within. For example, Bioinformatics. You combine a degree in say genetics and computer science and you've opened a lot more doors than if you had just completed a masters or phd in cs.
Re:PhD not a good way to get a job (Score:2)
And woe the student loans! You better hope your PhD gives you insight into The Next Big Thing, and you know how to make money from it.
Think small. smaller.
Re:PhD not a good way to get a job (Score:2, Informative)
Sure, you have to live like a dog for multiple years, making between 13-17K a year, but hey, if you can live that cheap, there are no problems.
Re:PhD not a good way to get a job (Score:2, Insightful)
A PhD is for learning how to do research. You may end up at a smaller university. You may end up at a research lab. You may end up with a post doc. The jobs are there-- but they are to do endless research.
Now, as a grad student, this is my impression at the moment, and I'm quite fine with it-- I want to do research. Saldy, I know many students in similar positions to mine stating, "But I don't want to do this my whole life..." These people possibly should not have sought a PhD.
Re:PhD not a good way to get a job (Score:5, Interesting)
My brother got his PhD from the University of Minnesota. He is now a professor at Tulane University in New Orleans. He teaches 3 classes a year, and the remainder of his time is performing research and writing papers. He does get paid very handsomely for it, I must say.
Outside of Academia, a PhD in Computer Science is not a very valuable degree.
However, :)).
I once had an employee that had dual masters degrees in Geology and Information Systems. He got his degree in Geology, then realized that he couldn't feed a family as a geologist (unless he wanted to feed them rocks) So he got his MIS degree. He couldn't find a job ANYWHERE (so I hired him
It wasn't long before I got him in touch with someone from Texaco Oil Corp. where we got him an interview and now he is working for Texaco, making 6 figures, helping them develop new methods for using computers in searching and drilling for oil.
So, my advice would be that if you get a second degree, use that degree to get you into the IT industry in a particular field you're interested in.
--
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. Computer science does not. There are plenty of computer scientists working in such fields as operating systems (Sun), networking (AT&T), and compilers (Intel) who design clever software that is then given away by their employers.
Their employers do not play the EULA game, betting on the ability of the BSA and its secret police tactics to bully the little guy into restrictive contracts. They make their profits on hardware, and the software is meant to increase the desirability of their hardware.
Other computer scientists, in the more abstract fields of nubmer theory (the NSA), and artificial intelligence (Google) have employers who profit by providing services (yes, the government is a service) based on the advanced technology computer scientists develop.
Or do you mean computer engineers? Why, I think you can't! There are programmers in all the places I mentioned above, plus those working to make e-commerce sites, business logistics solutions, etc.
To conclude this little flame, let me say that I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you plan to design operating systems for Sun or compilers for Intel, you had better hope that you hail from Bangalore or Shanghai -- because that's where that work is being done now.
The only growth industry in america is police and rent-a-cops.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, though. Almost 100% of the computing population run commercial closed source software on a commercial closed source operating system. They browse the Web using a closed-source browser, read email using a closed-source client, write documents with a closed-source wordprocessor. Microsoft is definitely going to lose market share to OSS, but if you and they were honest they'd admit that they never *had* that market share in the places that matter for OSS. Just look at the rise and rise of Apache, for example. You'll be hard-pressed to find Microsoft citing a potential OSS threat to their desktop environment, for example. And it's been the "year of Linux on the desktop" according to various OSS luminaries for how many years now? Perhaps four.
Even among geeks, there's a not-insignificant move to a closed-source OS - Mac OS X - simply because it's cool. What's been happening is a huge increase in support for open *standards* - HTML, XML, all the old Internet standards - because they allow interoperability.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:3, Insightful)
I disagree. If majors were based on people being able to find a paying job based on that major, there would be no art or history majors out there.
My impression of CS at my university is that it is a major for people who find programming interesting. Even if all software went the way of OSS/Free Software, there would still be jobs out there for us. They may or may not pay as much, but I can guarantee that it would require us to not be anti-social. In fact, I would say that OSS/Free Software would require us to be almost as social as a psychologist. To write and maintain programs that would ultimately be used by some group of people, we would have to understand how that social group thinks. We would have to take some of the same education that our target end-users take.
Software would still be very difficult to create and support, even with the Perfect Programming Language(TM), because programming goes beyond memorizing syntax.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:5, Insightful)
Disabuse yourself of that fallacy, and you will be set.
Case in point: Me.
I started out of college NOT AS A PROGRAMMER - but as a system administrator (I parlayed my brief experience with Unix in college into the job). Once in the position, I automated all of the tedious stuff, then set my sights on some of the other things around me. For example, the technical support folks were using paper tickets; a little database magic and some cgi scripts, and 'Voila!' - an automated ticketing system.
After that, I extended my knowledge - I learned other operating systems the company was using, and I also learned new programming languages. I also started developing my philosophy regarding programming paradigms for large projects by reading everything I could get my hands on and watching what went on with internal projects. Most importantly, I learned how to make disparate systems work together (systems integration).
Finally I got into a major project as a programer and applied and refined the lessons I had learned. Having administered operating systems and databases, I had a unique perspective many of my peers did not have. I volunteered for the difficult tasks, because I knew I would learn more by stretching myself than by sitting back and just coding by rote.
Pretty soon, I was project lead, and then a full blown senior developer. At this stage of the game I deal with technology and implementation issues at a high level; I write specifications, and either implement it (if its trivial) or oversee a vendor or internal team perform the implementation.
That is how a CS major can take you where you want to go; don't limit yourself by setting your expectations too high, or conversely, setting them too low. The biggest key is to just make yourself as valuable as possible to your company and you will get where you are going.
Re:Contiune your education... (Score:3, Insightful)
It all depends on your school. (Score:2, Interesting)
Internships (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Internships (Score:3, Informative)
Ooooh, now I see - you haven't a clue how question marks work.
Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Insightful)
To this end, I suggest graduate study in another field. Many graduate programs in the hard sciences (especially PhD programs in the sciences) offer good compensation packages and sometimes include low-cost housing. On top of that, you don't have to pay off your student loans for a while.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Interesting)
A coworker of mine was just saying the other day that he can't believe he wasted so much time studying CS in school. Now he's got a skillset limited to computers (he's a really good programmer), but nothing marketable outside of that. Frankly, he could have studied basket weaving in college and still learned enough to be a good programmer from on-the-job experience.
To be a programmer, you just need to get a foot in the door. That means you just have to have some exposure to programming and CS topics, not a full-blown major.
In short, study what you want, but don't expect a major to open doors for you.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Insightful)
Programming is a highly specialized skill. As with any specialized skills, it requires... specialists.
he could have studied basket weaving in college and still learned enough to be a good programmer from on-the-job experience.
I seriously doubt he'd even get an interview today, much less on-the-job experience, without an engineering major of some sort. Everything you say makes great sense in theory, and I wish I lived in a world where talent and drive alone gets you jobs.
"Study what you want" is great if you can afford it.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Insightful)
Not all companies are Microsoft, Oracle, and AOL. Walmart needs computer programmers. So does McDonalds and Holiday Inn.
Spamming Monster.com isn't guaranteed to find you a job anywhere. That's where everyone is already looking, the odds are just not in your favor.
Look off the beaten path and you will find a lot of opportunities that may end up being a lot more beneficial skill-wise and responsibility-wise in the long run than anything you'd do at a bigger company.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Interesting)
Excuse me for being a smart-ass, BUT:
If you want to get ahead based on your talent and drive move to America, because that's what we have. If you are going into too many companies where "talent and drive alone" aren't cutting it, then YOU'RE LOOKING IN ALL THE WRONG PLACES. Some advice:
-- Move to an urban area; "talent and drive" won't get you diddly squat in a rural sh*thole like South Dakota, and I know because that's where I grew up; there are ALWAYS opportunities in the urban areas (and I mean ALWAYS).
-- When you get to that urban area, apply for any and every job you are capable of doing, as if your life depends on it because IT DOES; as long as the company has interesting positions you could potentially move into in the FUTURE, you shouldn't limit yourself to engineering or programming jobs today.
-- Learn to swallow your pride to survive, because we are talking about YOUR SURVIVAL; I can't tell you how many out-of-work-techies I've seen unemployed for the past 2 YEARS because they're holding out for a job like their last job; future companies WILL understand if you had to survive in a lesser job for a couple of years until the economy turned around.
I graduated with a BSCS in 1990 (the last recession), looked in California for any technical computer or programming job I could find, but couldn't find anything for over a year. I happened to take a receptionist job at an electronics "start-up" just because I was desperate to pay the bills -- I was within weeks of being homeless at that point. I kept looking for a better programming job (Netscape, etc.), but my company kept growing and moving me into better-paid and more appealing positions than I could find with other companies.
Today, I'm still with this company, we've merged with other companies to form the largest power supply distributor/manufacturer in North America and Europe, and I head up the I.T. Department. Most people can't believe that I started as the receptionist with the President at arm's reach behind me, but THAT is what talent and drive can get you in America, but America isn't kind to those who are picky.
(By the way, we've always been profitable, we still are today, and we've done it without mass layoffs)
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Insightful)
God, I think I've worked with too many people like this. Or maybe there's some other reason, but there are so many bad programmers out there. About 1 in 3 I'd say tend to be sharp...the rest are the reason why Offshore coders in India look so good. They tend to be even less than 1 in 3 sharp, but at least they're cheap.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:2)
Being able to program is only a small part of what computer science is about. I certainly wouldn't trust somebody who happened to learn programming as a side-line to design a real-time system.
CS is more than syntax and libraries (Score:4, Insightful)
People like that are no more programmers than the guys who pump gas are mechanical engineers. Programmers don't just write code, they should design code. They should resolve and reduce the complexities of the real world into an abstract form on which processes and humans can interact. Programmers should understand the beauty of abstraction, the hard realities of computation and the subtleties of resolving the two. Programmers need to more than glorified code monkeys. Unfortunately, too often, they are just that.
Of course, that's not saying that a degree in non-CS is a bad thing, far from it. But just because you know C++ syntax and some libraries doesn't make you a programmer.
EnkiduEOT
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:4, Insightful)
Through years, and years, and years of experience, they have arrived upon many solid principles of software engineering, and a few principles of computer science.
In the six months I've been here, I've learned a whole lot about our specific development environment. I had never used VB before. Every "principle" that they've taught me, on the other hand, was covered in my first year at school. I've already lived and breathed these principles for four years. Of course, I don't tell them that. I smile and thank them. They give me my paycheck, after all.
Judging by my extremely small sample size, I'd say... you've got to be out of your mind. Sure, smarter people are worth more than dumber people, independent of their education. However, given two coders of equal intelligence/aptitude, the one with a good degree and 1 year of experience beats the hell out of the one with 5 years of experience. Maybe this is not the case when comparing two Carmack-level geniuses, but it certainly is when comparing mere mortals. Even most stars.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:3, Insightful)
Applied computation science is certainly useful. I've personally never hired a pure CS person, but without them where would we be? Check out this [utah.edu] link to see what I mean. All of the graphics that gamers rely on and CAD/CAM etc..etc...etc... depend on basic research.
To this end, I suggest graduate study in another field. Many graduate programs in the hard sciences (especially PhD programs in the sciences) offer good compensation packages and sometimes include low-cost housing. On top of that, you don't have to pay off your student loans for a while.
Most good PhD programs in the hard sciences (including CS) will offer a stipend as well as a tuition waver making graduate school an attractive alternative.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Insightful)
For companies looking for developers, an actual computer science/engineering degree is extremely helpful. Of course, those who persue other degrees in addition to CS become even more valuable.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:2, Insightful)
Good luck getting into a Ph.D. program in Physics, Chemistry or Geology/Earth Science if all you took was the minimum science for a CS degree.
You will essentially have to take an entire undergrad-major program *at graduate school tuition rates* before you can even begin the graduate program itself.
Assuming that you *fly* through it and you have two courses under your belt (assume that you took the calculus-based physics 1 and 2 courses), you have one to two years of undergrad work (Mech 1 and 2, E&M 1 and 2, Quantum, Thermo, Optics, Advanced Lab, Theoretical) before you can start your grad work.
2 years undergrad
+ 4-6 years grad work (classes + research + thesis)
=
6 to 8 years from your CS degree to completion of a Ph.D. in Physics.
Now, I'm not saying that it woudl be totally impossible to cut time off of that--depending on the program you enroll in, and particularly depending on how heavily you loaded yourself down with hard sciences as an undergrad. But it's not a cakewalk.
You can expect long hours, extremely difficult tests, qualifying exams, TA work, research work, and departmental politics. And you'll probably get a stipend ranging from $6,000 to $16,000 plus tuition waiver. Then you hope your research grant (which pays your stipend and tuition) doesn't disappear.
If you're looking for something to do after your CS degree that isn't CS, a second major or second undergrad degree may be a better option. Or, do what many science majors do: apply your skills to other fields. You need to look at how your CS skills might apply to other types of problems.
Jim
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:2)
Engineering is somewhat different because it is more application-focused.
"Computer Science" is very broad. If there were a comparably broad field called "Physical Science" it would encompass physics, engineering, and skilled trades such as plumbing, which fall along a spectrum in the same way that computer science proper, software engineering, and html coding do.
I can't believe you're recommending a PhD in the hard sciences for employability.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:5, Funny)
There's also a problem of far too many (arrogant) people trained in computer science.
Re:Graduate study in Something Else (Score:2)
However, computer science for computer science's sake is a very limited venture. Since science, video games, and porn seem to push the boundaries of computer technology (hardware and software), let's look at an example from the world of Physics. The PHEONIX project, a detector at RHIC, has a pretty robust software and hardware package associated with it. There are approximately 150+ developers working on various peices. Every night the software is re-built (successfully about 2 out of 3 times). All of the developers are Physicists. There are no computer scientists. The project management is done by a comercial software package they payed money for. That project management software is where the computer scientists came in, not in the actual software package.
LucasFilm! (Score:2, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, consider joining organizations related to your interests - IEEE, ACM, and *gasp* even the MIS associations. Companies often times frequent these meetings or do presentations for the organization, and if you're a member or officer, you'll definitely score brownie points for that summer internship you desperately covet.
Other than that, just work hard at school and keep the GPA up and hope for some luck!!
Well, I recently attended a job fair, (Score:2, Interesting)
That's about it.
It is almost summer time, I myself am going to look for a job in construction.
Hmm let's see (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hmm let's see (Score:2)
In Canada internships are paid...
High school co-op != university co-op. The latter is an internship, for all practical purposes.
At the University of Toronto, it goes for 12-16 months once instead of multiple places in 4-month stints, which has both benefits and drawbacks vs. the Waterloo method (you can work on bigger projects and learn more, but if you get a bad employer, you're stuck with them).
Have you considered University IT Departments (Score:5, Informative)
I'd credit the experiences I had with the University internship while I was going to school to be the reason I have a Network Administration position right now.
Re:Have you considered University IT Departments (Score:2, Insightful)
As far as private universities, they are economically governed by their endowments which may or may not come from donations. If that's the case, they are in the same boat as well, as people nowadays rarely have the money to live comfortably (like it was 1999) much less give it away to a private uni.
Not happening anytime soon...
Re:Have you considered University IT Departments (Score:2)
in response to that question.. (Score:2)
What type of request is this? (Score:2)
My university has a "co-op" programs, have you tried to see if yours does too. I can see several positions open, companies like these because they're cheap labor.
But if you are serious about looking for interships or coops, maybe you need to get serious and do better searching yourself, or at the very least, provide relevant information!
Geez, kids today!
McDonald's is always hiring. (Score:5, Funny)
In other words, C.S. students are a dime a dozen, just like mcdonald's employees. What makes you stand out?
You know some math above first year calculus? You know some science above first year biology? Do you know anything besides programming? If you don't, then don't expect to get a job that any other second year CS student can get. Cause you won't get it unless you know someone (which is still the best bet for finding internships).
Re:McDonald's is always hiring. (Score:2)
It's funny because.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now let's think.... 5 years ago there was maybe a tenth of the people doing CS as there are now, internships were available and reasonably well paid. Now all these companies have ten times the applicants that would originally have applied (but this time the other 9 want the money not the job).
If you were a CS company. Who would you want to hire?
Re:It's funny because.... (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, but there are just fewer jobs available, and just as many qualified applicants.
You did remember (Score:2)
to check Google [google.com], right?
I suppose it depends on your school too.
Apply to smaller companies (Score:2, Informative)
Enjoy your summer (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people like my father have scoffed at this and told me that I "need" to get an internship now or I'll get left behind. I'm sure many other CS majors here have felt the same pressure. However, I think this is when you should take a step back and look at why you got into CS in the first place. I did it because it is something I love to do; the potentially lucrative job market is an added bonus. So what if I don't get an internship and I don't make $foo money when I get a job after school? I'm confident in my abilities so that I will do well in the long run. However, as long as I make enough to live comfortably, I'm happy with that because I would much rather do CS than get a degree like Business where I really have no interest.
Don't take this as saying internships aren't important. It is definitely a good idea to go out and get some real world CS experience. (You can do this to some extent with open source projects on your own schedule.) But just remember, jobs/money are NOT the be all end all when it comes to CS or any other field. Don't forget to enjoy yourself sometimes or you will be left as one of those bitter coders getting mid-life crises in a not-so distant future.
You got letters? (Score:2)
But I did eventually find a job. The market is terrible at the moment, but nobody knows what the future will bring.
Try networking (Score:5, Insightful)
People I know that are still undergrads are mostly people from my college fraternity (i.e. they were freshman my senior year or first year out when I visited friends there). The ones getting jobs are the ones that network well. The rest are finding research jobs on campus.
The days where you float your resume and get 20 phone calls are over. Sorry.
Time to work on the people skills.
Alex
Re:Try networking (Score:2, Funny)
Seaking Internships is Weakness (Score:4, Interesting)
The only way to crack into such a market when you are green is to really dazzle 'em with examples of sharp work and present yourself as someone pleasant to work with!
Also, never try to land a job through an HR department. If you can't get direct access to a project manager, meet someone who can. Try thinking from the perspective of a project manager: He/She wants to look good in front of the peers and boss and make sure the new hire isn't going to rub the existing team wrong and waste a lot of time with interpersonal drama to resolve.
what do they have oncampus? (Score:2)
Some of these opportunities were probably unique to my time and place, but don't overlook the academic environment as a place to get solid experience. I had a kickass resume when I graduated, and only left campus for fun.
(Hell, IIRC I think NPR this morning mentioned schools in Massachusetts were one area that increased # of jobs)
YMMV, of course.
PBS... (Score:2)
Internships (Score:4, Informative)
I don't have high marks, in fact, my average is in the upper 60's.
I'm not finding any shortage of work, and my university has a 97% placement rate for co-ops (all of which are paid).
Granted, my university facilitates all of the leg work in applying to and interviewing with these companies. (I don't have to go out and look for any) Althought many others do find co-ops independently without assistance from the co-op department.
Re:Internships (Score:2)
But, seriously, I understand that my CS degree isn't going to get me into the places by itself. I've started taking hard-core economics courses, and am working extremely hard at developing skills in writing proper documentation. The more I diversify myself, the better the chance I have of finding a job after I graduate.
Documentation may be unsexy, but G-d only knows we need more of it.
-Erwos
Just a thought.. (Score:5, Insightful)
So what I see in post
I think these days the job place and market are less forgiving to incompetence, and to that degree, don't even give people a change because of that fear.
At least that's my experience (being on the hire-er end).
You're on equal footing... (Score:2)
You're on equal footing with folks who graduated 5 years ago and have nothing but dotcom [callipygian.com] on their resume.
In fact, you should fare a little better. I'd rather hire someone out of school with a legit degree (i.e., computer science, math, EE, and not MIS) than someone with nothing but dotocom experience, and inflated title, and inflated self-worth.
Have confidence in yourself, and apply for jobs that are slightly above entry-level, especially if you've already worked on significant projects.
Yes, Actually (Score:2, Interesting)
Look abroad (Score:2, Interesting)
Go to the Co-Op office. (Score:2)
Try the co-op office. Ask 'em if they have any internships listed, they might (mine did).
Check out MonsterTrak (Score:3, Interesting)
The historical reason for paid internships is gone (Score:3, Informative)
IMO, the primary reason for internships has always been to seduce workers out of colleges before they obtained their degrees, and the earlier the contact with the student, the more likely they were to win that students mindshare.
At this point, you are better off finishing your degree, and, if you can manage it, getting published in a technical journal or conference proceedings.
If you insist on an internship, there are some available; generally, however, they are in large corporations (e.g. IBM) or government agencies (e.g. NASA).
-- Terry
Only if "history" is limited to the Internet boom. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll agree with you that internships have always been meant to gain mindshare more than to produce actual results. (Single-summer interns that actually do make good on their recruiting, hiring and wage expense in their short time at a company are often virtually guaranteed a hire barring business complications, i.e. lack of money for hiring *anyone* new.) But the reason for that is to encourage those workers to come back to the company *after* they've completed their education. A returning intern will be productive quicker than a total newbie, because of familiarity with the organization; they also probably won't fight the organization as hard on negotiations like, say, salary etc. due to accumulated loyalties.
Aside from a few outliers, a worker with a degree is FAR more valuable in the job market than a non-degreed worker. At base, it proves you're capable of setting a goal and achieving it. Internships, paid or un-paid, have historically been a way for students to gain real-world knowledge in their field and for companies to invest in mindshare toward bringing in a degreed worker later, not toward luring half-trained people out of school.
Yes (Score:2, Interesting)
I think that there are still internships available, but they're just much harder to come by.
Key to Finding Paying Internships: Be different (Score:5, Informative)
Try Dell (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently you have to be a complete weenie, though.
Go ahead! Make your internship free! (Score:2)
Set your TIME free too!!!
From a Current Intern (Score:5, Informative)
The intern positions are tough to get at these companies, but there is certainly no lack of them! And they are certainly paid. I for one am paid obscenely well for my time here in California.
In this area in general, all the big researchg outfits have large intern programs:
- Sun (both the labs and general)
- HP
- IBM
- PARC (former Xerox lab)
- Microsoft Research
The smaller companies each will hire smaller numbers of interns... maybe only one or two each, but I find most companies that have hired interns and done well by it (and most do) believe strongly in it and will be happy to look at your resume.
Make sure, beyond anything, to get your resume into the stacks of these companies. Many of them will only bring interns in during the summer with the university students on co-op, so it helps to know when to get the resume in.
If you can't get a paid internship... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what I did last summer after many interviews, a lot of "we went with someone who had more experience" and one "we don't have room in our budget." I called the latter back and asked if they would take me on in an unpaid capacity. They agreed and it was one of the better decisions I've made. Not only did they end up paying me something at the end (not as much as I would have made with an hourly wage, but a decent amount) but I firmly believe that it was that experience that enabled me to land the job I have right now.
So if you don't have anything better to do with you summer (or whenever you're looking for an internship), consider doing one unpaid.
my 2 cents (Score:3, Informative)
Fairchild Semiconductor [fairchildsemi.com] is an excellant employer of interns.
Re:yes (Score:5, Funny)
Re:yes (Score:5, Funny)
I think that you need to be a US citizen to get it though, but if you're not and still studying Nuclear Engineering, you must be a terrorist.
check out national labs (Score:4, Informative)
Check AWU [awu.org] about the possibilities at these facilities [awu.org].
Also, check these:
Sandia [sandia.gov]
Los Alamos [lanl.gov]
Argonne [anl.gov]
Brookhaven [bnl.gov]
Pacific Northwest [pnl.gov]
Lawrence Berkeley [lbl.gov]
Lawrence Livermore [llnl.gov]
Oak Ridge [ornl.gov]
And there are other other national labs [energy.gov] that I did not mention.
Re:yes - OT (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:yes - OT (Score:4, Informative)
It's pretty good while you're in college-- right now they pay right around $40K/year for your last two years in school--not bad, since you have absolutely nothing ROTCish or Navyish to do for those two years (I even interned at a national lab while I was getting paid by the Navy-- hooray for double dipping.
Anyway, the job I signed on for was instructor, which meant that I taught onshore, never seeing a sub but as a tourist, for 4 years. And then I was out. If you want a military career- this is not the way to go. If you hate paperwork, this is not the way to go. If you despise bueracracies, 'the man', uniforms, power trips from idiots, or senseless rules, this is not for you.
However, it is a job, it gives you in-state tuition for whatever school you're in, it delays having to choose a real career for 4 years, and they do give a reasonable paycheck. (The instructor option is only open for technical majors, however-- otherwise you can go sub, not see the sky for 3 months at a time, go crazy, but get about a $12K signing bonus.)
Re:yes - OT-We own you. (Score:5, Funny)
I'm actually in this group as well, and honestly, if you're in the country, and you're male, you're already owned. Remeber that Selective Service card you were supposed to fill out when you turned 18? The liklihood of that being used is actually higher than the liklihood of you getting called back after you resign your commission.
Now, I'm actually in the Active Reserves, which gives me around $400/drill weekend and I get to go on all sorts of nifty trips as well. The only thing I have to fear is if we go to war, but what, I ask you, are the odds of that happening these days?
Re:yes - OT (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Erm (Score:2)
I think you're way off here....if anything, certifications would do nothing but help. Sure, your experience may be good but in my opinion, companies are not going to hire non-certified/non-degreed people. A role for tech support-type jobs will always exist (unless computers figure out a way to fix themselves).
my $.02
what i meant to say was (Score:2)
Re:Erm (Score:2)
Re:The worst thing for CS kids... (Score:5, Interesting)
No, don't shoot me, this is not meant to be a flame. I actually hire interns and IT guys in my company (I am the CTO). Now put yourself in my shoes for a second. There is enough on offer. I have to hire those who show most promise. I have to defend my hires to fellow execs. If I hire someone who writes things like "easist", "acronims" and "sentince", I will be asked why I did not at least hire someone who can read and write.
I realise this sounds dismissive, and I really do not mean it to. I am just trying to impress upon you the importance of basic skills. If you cannot distinguish "sentince" from "sentence", how can I be sure you can produce functional code? These are not mere typos.
Yes, I know there is much more than spelling to a person. It's just that this is kind of a basic skill. If you can improve on it, I am sure you can compete better with Johnnie Frat Boy. And please do try to see this as a constructive suggestion - I may be shot down but felt it needed saying.
Michael
PS ATM in a sentence? OK... I'll give you two: "ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode) was not the panacea it was once thought to be to solve Internet connectivity woes". Or try "ATM (Automatic Teller Machine) technology has more than kept pace with Internet security technology and losses are minimal".
Re:The worst thing for CS kids... (Score:3, Insightful)
Well part of this problem is that Computer Science means different things to different people. I went to CMU, where CS is somewhat respected. My major was Information & Decision Systems, which is, for all intents and purposes the CMU equivalent of the aforementioned BCIS degree, when compared to a CMU CS degree. However, coming out of my degree, I have found that I quite easily know much more about the "science of computing" than many CS majors from less rigorous schools.
Unfortunately I think the time has come to draw the line between computer "scientists" and computer "programmers," just like there is a line between "physicists" and "engineers." It wasn't until I guess about 6 years ago that you could earn a CS degree at CMU that wasn't a double major Math/CS, and to be honest, I think thats the way it should be. Programming is an art, no doubt, but I suspect just as there are "people who speak english" and then there are "writers," there are always going to be "people who can write VB" and "people who could program in any language."
Unfortunately, at this point it time, its very hard for employers to tell who is who, and even to assess their own needs. If you were to ask any employer "do you want some IS grad who hacks VB" or "do you want a CS grad who could really write in any language," they're going to opt for the CS guy, who will subsequently be bored out of his wits writing VB code.
I suspect that soon, and by soon I mean in the next 5 years or so, a real dichotomy is going to emerge in the business world (its already there in academia) between "blue-collar programmers" and "white-collar programmers." Blue collar programming will be taught at tech schools and perhaps 4 year CS degress can refocus their energies on the "science of computing." The business side of the dot-com pipe-dream has already crashed and burned, and now unfortunately it might be time for the rank and file's dreams to meet the same fate.
Re:Why should they pay to teach you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Although I probably will anyway... *sigh*