The Ethics of Stealing Wireless Bandwidth? 145
"At home over my cable modem, downloading this file would have taken a couple of eyeblinks, but as I clicked on the download over her AOL connection, I saw that the ETA turned from 45 minutes to 68 minutes to 94 minutes! I had less than 10 minutes, so I did what a few of you might do: I turned on my wireless laptop and looked around the apartment building in search of a connection.
Later, I considered the ethical aspects of my action. I kinda felt a little guilty for tapping into this guy's connection. Surely it's possible that he wanted to have an open network to provide strangers in brief need of broadband connectivity, but most likely, he's just some person who doesn't quite know what he's doing."
Dunno.... (Score:1)
That's just my thought...
Re:Dunno.... (Score:1)
Yeah. That sounds ethical.
Re:Dunno.... (Score:2)
Re:Dunno.... (Score:2)
Some how, I think you would have a real issue if I were to take over your place for an afternoon.
Hmm, what's this in the fridge? Oops, didn't mean to spill that on your carpet, awe screw it. You know, I prefer the sofa over here. Hey, nice disco shirt! I'll just borrow it for a while. Oooh!!! Killer laptop, I guess if
Re:Dunno.... (Score:1)
Re:Dunno.... (Score:1)
I assume that in your 'neck of the woods' that it's typically flat-rate net access (e.g. not by per Mb). I would suggest it's more like 'oh dear, my frisbee has fallen into your garden. You're not around/not going to possibly notice me- but if you do, sure I'll back off. So I pop in, 'trespassing on private grounds', pick it up, & out'
- no harm, no one (probably) loses out - all is happy.
& yes, if yo
Re:Dunno.... (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Dunno.... (Score:2)
Think about what could be outgoing instead of incoming, and what that could mean to you, the owner of that IP address, and ultimately the responsible party for the traffic originating from it. Someone drives up, pauses for a little while, and:
1. Sends spam from your IP
2. Hacks something from your IP
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Dunno.... (Score:2)
I wasn't arguing an analogy (ie. bulletproof glass, etc) or comparing computer crime to meat-space crime. I'm stating one of the reasons why I don't run a wide open web, and I think that the risks are legitimate, although not widespread. I trust most of my friends who use wireless, and they could have a node on my net
Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:2)
e.g. http://here/ or https://here/ or something like that, and you'd see the main webpage for the network you're on. With stuff like Terms of Usage, login page, chat, list of other users on line, other devices you can use (jukebox, airconditioner etc).
The here TLD could be resolved locally by a dns server for that site. If it's globally
Re:Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:2)
Re:Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:2)
This is about networks which don't require passwords for access - unlocked/open/unprotected.
If a network is unlocked/unprotected how do we know whether someone is being generous or being ignorant?
If something similar to what I suggest becomes common/standard then one can easily check if a network has been explicitly made open for public use and what the terms are, and whether there are other int
Re:Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:3, Insightful)
That's their business. If they don't take the trivial step of setting a password (which is clearly recommended in even the most dumbed-down wireless kits I have seen) why should I assume that their policy is anything different than what they've deliberately implemented technologically.
Re:Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:2)
I think that's his point... if the files are there, I can see what the owner of the network is OK with me doing. If the files aren't there, odds are that the network wasn't intended to be open.
Re:Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:2)
The ignoramuses will still risk having their networks being exploited. BUT nice people can keep their conscience clear AND still get to use open networks that are explicitly made open.
Right now, if you don't want to be rude, it's hard to use any open network without foreknowledge that it's OK.
Physical logos are helpful, but you could still be on the WRONG open network. While DNS caching makes my suggestion
Re:Which is why there should be a standard. (Score:2)
Karma police (Score:2)
Re:Karma police (Score:2)
A better question is .. (Score:3, Interesting)
In my 'hood someone had their Linksys WiFi (I will get around to explaining how I knew in a minute) up without WEP enabled, just plugged it in and let it go
Liar! (Score:1)
You read Slashdot.
You have a girlfriend.
CONTRADICTION ALERT!!!!
Re:Liar! (Score:1)
Hmmm, maybe it's your sig?
Re:Liar! (Score:2)
My wife's not a geek, but I love her anyway - nobody's perfect
Fortunately I have some non-geek interests so we at least have something in common.
Re:Liar! (Score:2)
Re:Liar! (Score:1)
Intelligent people don't read Slashdot, either... ;o)
Re:Liar! (Score:2)
Re:Liar! (Score:2)
What about guys who read slashdot and have girlfriends, who also read slashdot?
Legality vs. Common Sense (Score:1)
That being said, any decent person, and especially someon
Re:Legality vs. Common Sense (Score:1, Interesting)
Number two, you can tell one car from another pretty easy. With computer thats automatically associate to the strongest signal, or to "any" access point, it's common to
Re:Legality vs. Common Sense (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Legality vs. Common Sense (Score:2)
(Checks last bill)
Hmm.. 22MB at 15c
Just consider yourself lucky that you live in a country with cheap internet access.
If the door's open... (Score:1)
Re:If the door's open... (Score:2)
bandwidth isn't always cost free (Score:2)
If you'd done that using my (hypothetical) work connection, you'd have cost us somewhere around US$1 in straight volume charges.
So here, it'd be like stealing a dollar.
I think there needs to be some standard developed for advertising wireless services. Terms and conditions, etc. So if you run a public free-for-all service, people can feel confident using it. If you
Re:bandwidth isn't always cost free (Score:2)
Re:bandwidth isn't always cost free (Score:2)
Re:bandwidth isn't always cost free (Score:2)
Re:bandwidth isn't always cost free (Score:2)
If you're not intending it to be used by others, it'd be fairly obvious.
Where I'm from, we call that "requiring a password." If my excess bandwidth cost me $100/G, you can sure as hell bet that I'd password protect my base-station. But, as it is, who cares? So I don't. But the problem of "recognizing permissive use" has been solved. If you fail to avail yourself of the those tools, I can't be very sorry for you.
Simply put. (Score:2)
It is theft. It is wrong. But, the value is so low that the authorities are not going to attempt to enforce the law in such cases. You therefore, become a nuisance to the grocer and in the future he either hits you in the head with a broom or he moves his apple cart back inside the store.
The same applies to this persons bandwidth. If they feel that they have suffered a loss they will make an effort to pr
Re:Simply put. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Simply put. (Score:2)
In my town, a 75 year old woman was arrested for eating a peanut from the produce dep't without paying for it.
One peanut.
Re:Simply put. (Score:2)
Re:Simply put. (Score:2)
I know people who have had their cars broken into and little or nothing stolen because there was nothing to steal. This however has ended up costing the owner £200 in various repairs. Now as far as the police are concered this is a petty crime and are not even really interested in trying to pursue it further... But the
Re:Simply put. (Score:2)
The problem with this is the scale of it. Almost any broadband user has way, way more bandwidth than they are going to use every day. I'd wager that almost all of them aren't even maxing out their connection every day. So rather than stealing one apple out of someone's twenty or thirty, isn't it more like taking a drink from a privately owned stream? Or using a restaurant bathroom sink to wash not only y
Well there are a few themes here... (Score:2)
Chances are good the supplier of your fortuitious connection has an unlimited pipe.
Chances are good that they weren't using it at the time(as attested by your connection speed)
But the reality is that you did take something from them that they cannot get back, regardless of the fact that it didn't cost them anything extra.
Unlike a water spigot, which is also paid for, you can connect without notice. This is the only ambiguous area. Furthermore, they are broadcas
water is a good example. (Score:2)
The Roman formula for exile was to deny water and fire to the person exiled. Only an ass would hoard what's essential and plentiful and only a criminal should be denied such things. This was not theft anymore than drinking from someone's running water hose on a hot day.
Wireless has the potential to set us all free from per byte communication charges. Meshworks can eliminate the need for wires a comunity network can take the p
It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
If you moved someone's car so the street sweaper could get buy, they'd thank you; if you drove thier car across town to the bar, you might end up with a pants load of buckshot.
Joe
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
> to borrow my car.
Right. But this guy didnt go over to the persons house and plug into his hub/switch.
If you drive your car into my front door and left it there with the keys in it however, and I had no idea why it was there, accident or not you can hardly bitch if I start your car and drive it elsewhere.
Well i guess you can bitch, since you posted that stupid comment, but just because someone bitches about something
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
For most people, wireless access points are sold just like a cordless phone. And most people consider a cordless phone to only work with the handset that comes with it. Except they don't really think of it that way, they think of it as "It works with my stuff" as is, frankly, the reasonable
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
> "be polite and don't use a resource that someone asks nicely that you not use."
Where you came up with that is beyond me. You also took what i said totally wrong.
Example. At work (non IT job) there is a hub/switch on a desk with some machines attached to it.
There is a HUGE difference between asking "Am i allowed to plug in there to get internet access?" then being told yes or no, and never once asking and intending
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
You seem to think that most people will (or at least should) realize that a non-WEP'd wireless access point is the same as saying "I'm willing to share" for a random home user. Or a random small business user, for that matter.
I agree that WEP is inherently insecure, and not much better than politely asking someone "please go elsewhere." MAC filtering is the same, given cards that can clone MACs.
Our basic disagreement comes from the fact that
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:1)
Suppose you left your car door unlocked by accident, and a total stranger decided to drive down to the local 7-11 to buy some chocolates for his girlfriend. By your argument, it is your fault because you forgot to lock the care door. And it follows that this makes it ethical for the stranger to borrow your car without asking you.
(BTW: since you apparently
Re:It Was OK, It's His Fault (Score:2)
You're saying that the WLAN owner has a responsibility to secure his WAP (a point with which I agree whole-heartedly). If, however, he happens to be ignorant of WEP security or happens to be sufficiently technically-challenged such that configuring WEP security is beyond his capability (an altogether reasonable assumption--many people lack specific knowledge of commonplace tasks, rebuilding a car engine or wiring a li
"Was I wrong to steal?" Yes. (Score:2)
My base station is wide open, too. (Score:2)
If I cared, I'd WEP it. If I really cared, I'd WEP and MAC address lockout. If I really really cared, I'd only allow it single port access to a server with a VPN, then nobody could get through but me (in theory, anyway).
If your neighbor is playing good music loudly, and you open your window and enjoy it, are you stealing (OK, no RIA comments, please
If you use someone's driveway to help turn around, are you stealing?
I don't think so. If you reall fee
Re:My base station is wide open, too. (Score:2)
Unless you put up a fence and sign saying "No trespassing."
This applies unless you make it clear that you have withdrawn it.
Right.
I wouldn't be prepared to make a guess as to the legalities of turning a care in someone elses driveway
Generally il
It subject to theacceptable use of your ISP (Score:1)
At this time I don't think it breaks any laws, but then again I'm not a lawyer.
If his usage caused a blip on the radar he could loose his account if he let people use the AP. They want the $40-$60 from those other people.
If it is accidental, they would talk him through setting up WEP or Mac address filtering.
Is stealing ethical? Maybe it was a public WLAN? (Score:1)
On the other hand, how do you know you were stealing? Maybe the owner of the WLAN intended for it to be a public access point since they didn't take any measures to protect it. Maybe they are naive, but I think people who install WLANs are obliged to take some simple security measures that are not hard to find out about or learn about. If they are technical enough to configure it to work on a network they shou
Stealing? Of course not. (Score:2)
Yes, in a court of law whoever rents out the infrastructure would argue that, at 120 baud rates, your download cost the company $2600, and so with legal fees you are liable for $200,000 in damages. And in these greed-oriented, legislator-bought, owners-take-all, times, they might get it.
But there is no doubt in my mind who the criminals are.
If you're worried about it... (Score:2)
What about, you know, asking? (Score:2)
Of course, I set up WEP once it occurred to me that providing free broadband for my hostile neighbors was not what I wanted to do with my free time.
Maybe the guy's deliberately sharing his broadband. Maybe he hasn't figured out how to secure it. Wouldn't kill you to ask, would it?
If it's unprotected, it's a free-for-all (Score:1)
What if it happened to you? (Score:1)
guilty (Score:1)
I purchased a 802.11b card in January, because a new roommate would be moving in with his Airport base station. Before he arrived with his base station I tried the card out and noticed that I had a 75% signal throughout the apartment.
Within 5 minutes I had detected which manufacturer created the WAP next door, found the default admin log and pass, and changed the router name to "goatse.cx" to see if my neighbor would notice.
It's been 3 months and I still use his connection whenever I want to downloa
Re:guilty (Score:1)
"The guy could easily secure his network if he felt like it.. or if he was wise enough."
what is it with you people thinking like scam artists. "they were so stupid they were asking for it!"
stealing an ignorant persons bandwith is as bad as selling someone the brooklyn bridge.
Once upon a time... (Score:2)
Re:Once upon a time... (Score:1)
Re:Once upon a time... (Score:2)
Simple answer. (Score:2)
Courts may not agree, but mine wasn't a legal answer.
Well...more info. (Score:2)
The neighbor girl (Score:2)
You didn't see me type that.
If you have to ask the question, (Score:2)
Hmmmm... (Score:2)
Or, maybe it's like... (Score:2)
Did you try and ask? (Score:2)
Buy Him a beer and offer to sort his security out (Score:2)
a) Doesn't mind - in which case relax and war chalk his door
b) Does mind, but didn't know, in which case - fix his security and call it a fair trade
of course it's not wrong (Score:2)
What I want in an access point (Score:2)
I couldn't care less if somebody else uses my unmetered access unless it's slowing me down. At that point I care alot.
Re:What I want in an access point (Score:2)
Let's look at this. (Score:2)
OK, so instead you went looking for an unsecured WAP. You knew you were wrong, and you did it anyway. Therefor, you have moral culpability for appropriat
It's only airwaves -- and unlicensed ones, at that (Score:4, Insightful)
So, if you're broadcasting your access singnal, unlicensed and unencrypted into another residence, I say all bets are off.
Re:It's only airwaves (Score:2)
Sharing stuff like that is one of those things you want to do for your neighbors. Would I care if someone logged onto my wireless from time to time? No. I'm paying for my connection regardless of how much I use it. Would I mind if it started slowing me down? Yes and I'd figure out something to make things painful for me. Neighbors should share more than fences. What goes around, co
Re:It's only airwaves -- and unlicensed ones, at t (Score:2)
Having said that, I don't think you did anything wrong, and I do the same thing! Many people do intentionally leave their Internet connections open, as they're paying a f
You penance (Score:2)
Wireless security isn't that difficult (Score:2)
The Law (Score:2)
I used to work at a campus police department. We had regular problems with a street-person cranking up his boom-box in a campus parking structure late at night and annoying all the neighbor
Forget the wireless... (Score:2)
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:2)
If I don't lock my car - are you allowed to steal it?
If I don't lock my house - is that an invitation for you to come help yourself to my belongings?
There is not difference here.
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:2)
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:1)
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice
In reality there is.
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:2)
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:2)
Ethics, not legalities (Score:1)
You might get away with that in a court of law, but we are talking about ethics here. The guy knew that the WLAN he was borrowing was not a public hotspot. This is obvious from the original posting.
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:2)
Re:I wouldn't think twice about it (Score:2)
That is distinctly different from someone who puts up a network with full knowledge and intent of providing a free service.
This is a BIG different even though there is no practical differece as far as the user is concerned.
It is morally incorrect to steal things that aren't yours. If someone is giving it away intentionally, that isn't stealing.
If I ope
Re:reply (Score:1)
Re:Dear slashdot (Score:2, Funny)
only if you went to the bathroom during commercials, but that's another story.