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Censorship Programming IT Technology

Free as in Marketable? 45

Posted by Cliff from the faculty-politics-and-open-source dept.
An anonymous reader asks: "I work in IT at a research university. A few of my co-workers and I are in the process of planning a piece of software that we would like to release to the public under the GPL license, but we're running into issues with our "intellectual property" office which thinks we have a potentially marketable product. We would rather give the product away for free and see our university get some credit for the product. How have others dealt with this problem? It's a shame that money is more important to a research school than sharing research with others."
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Free as in Marketable? More

Free as in Marketable?

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  • Non-Commercial Use (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:49AM (#5789478) Homepage
    What about putting it under something else than the GPL? What about puttting it under a license that makes it free for non-commercial and educational use but requires payment if used in a commercial setting or sold? That would probably keep the suits happy.
    • Hmm that's the worst of all cases IMHO.
      It's bad enough that people (well.. me) wouldn't contribute to the project, but good enough that it might not be rewritten by someone who would of if it was closed-source..

  • Yeah, it sucks... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RevAaron ( 125240 ) <`revaaron' `at' `hotmail.com'> on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:50AM (#5789490) Homepage
    Sure, it sucks, but what do you expect? Research universities are all about the money- why do you think they're so well funded? Why do you think they do that research? Because they do research that in some percentage of the time produces something they can make a return on. Universities don't get rich off that 48.5% they get in overhead off an NSF grant... Yes, that pays the bills, but project commercialization and subsequent profit is what pays for expansion of programs and physical conquest as well as for all the non-profitable research going on.

    It seems like shitty thing, especially when you're youngue and impressionable- an undergrad or master's student with her head full of ideas about Freedom and Information Equality. I wish it was that way, but most people aren't willing to fund science for its own sake- they want a return on that investment.

    • *I* want a return on *my* investment (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @12:28PM (#5790554)
      And I am not a big corporate donor. I am a taxpayer. Depending on the state, I likely paid for that software to be written; I underwrite tuition at the university; the university was founded with a land appropriation, which if left private could have made my grandfather rich; a variety of special provisions by the state legislature give this university a wide class of special exemptions and preferences.

      This is not Bell Labs or Xerox Parc, folks. *Those* are places that can whine about a return on investment.

      And now my and my ancestor's investments in an educated society full of opportunity are being hijacked by lawyers and weak, cowardly, and greedy administration. The trustees and administrators of most universities in the US these days are a craven mafia eager to claim the public's infrastructure for themselves and set up a toll gate. These are the people who didn't make it on to the board of Enron and WorldCom because they were too untrustworthy.

      Quit now. And LIGHT THE PLACE ON FIRE WHEN YOU LEAVE.
      • And I am not a big corporate donor. I am a taxpayer. Depending on the state, I likely paid for that software to be written; I underwrite tuition at the university; the university was founded with a land appropriation, which if left private could have made my grandfather rich; a variety of special provisions by the state legislature give this university a wide class of special exemptions and preferences.

        This is not Bell Labs or Xerox Parc, folks. *Those* are places that can whine about a return on inves
      • Well said- I wholeheartedly agree!

        However, what the tax payers want isn't so much of a concern. If you think it is, you are dreaming. Most big research Universities want some of their projects to be profitable, and run the place accordingly. Yup, it sucks and leaves what the tax payer wants completely out of the equation.
      • Um, if you have this idea that most major research universities are raking in the bucks, you're sorely mistaken. The fact is, they do this sort of thing to pay the bills. You're a tax payer, this is something YOU should want, so the universities don't have to rely as much on state/federal funding. Granted we still rely heavily on it.

        Or maybe you think we just spend too much? Do students really need access to computers? Do teachers really deserve thier pay? Why don't we cut back on things like new equiptmen
      • I'm sorry you don't like whomever is running your university. Perhaps YOU could try to run it... or would that be too much work? You'd rather have a rich dead grandfather?

        Whiner.
      • Would you like your ROI in the form of source code that your probably don't care about or in cash that will keep your tax bill down?

        Your choice.

  • not necessarily opposed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ubiquitin ( 28396 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:53AM (#5789523) Homepage Journal
    Just because a project/product is GPL doesn't mean that you can't market it. There are lots of business models behind open source software, just ask the folks at RedHat or Zend [zend.com]. Lowering the barriers to adoption by making distribution essentially free (cost of bandwidth) and no up-front expense is a great marketing tool, actually. Ask your university's marketroid advocates the following question: would RedHat and/or PHP be here today and be the most popular tools of their kind, if they had to reach their userbase by traditional marketing means and expenditures?

  • Make money?! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by slevin ( 67815 )
    Does anyone besides Microsoft actually make money strictly selling software? The way I see it, there are only a few ways to make money in the biz:
    • Be a large company that can affort to market the heck out of your products. (ie the current capitalist method).
    • Be a niche developer selling a useful product to a small market. This usually works for a solitary developer. The market won't be big enough to support much more than that.
    • Really target a niche market hard - Mathematica, Matlab. This is almost an exte

    • Re:Make money?! (Score:2, Informative)

      by tha_mink ( 518151 )
      Does anyone besides Microsoft actually make money strictly selling software? The way I see it, there are only a few ways to make money in the biz:

      That's pretty ignorant so I assume you've got to be kidding. This is so much more software getting sold "out there" than you know about. Just becasue it doesn't come in a box at "best buy" doesn't mean that there isn't someone making copious amounts of money off of it. Plus a "potentially marketable" product could be anything. Maybe this dude wrote some s

      • Sean is right (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Most software written is not written for distribution and sale. It is written in house, or by contractors, for the business's direct use, and any sort of copyright system whatsoever will never effect it because it will never be copied. You know, kind of like how this project in question probably started.

        The large company method (Oracle, Borland, of course MS, etc) is probably out. These people will not buy that software from you. From the point of view of the MBA's who make the decision, anything writ

      • No software will be perfect, therefore, no software will sell itself. Unless your university plans on making the financial risk of targeted advertising, the money just won't come.
        WTF? Lots of software sells itself simply by filling a void

        I think what he means is that if you don't tell other people that the software exists (i.e., marketing), no one can purchase it.

        My approach to starting a business has always been:
        1. Find a group of potential customers I can reach.
        2. Decide what product I can sell them.
        3

  • Add a few librarys (Score:4, Interesting)

    by brejc8 ( 223089 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @11:02AM (#5789612) Homepage Journal
    Its easy to force or make it very difficult not to release the source of a project once you are the coder. The easyest way is to link in a few GPL librarys (LibBFD is my favorite in this area) and make their use so essential that the software cannot be unbundled from them. Then state that if the product is to be released to the public it has to be open sourced due to its use of GPL'd librarys. Doesn't stop you writing it but if the university wants to distribute it then it needs to open it.

    • Re:Add a few librarys (Score:3, Insightful)

      by spitzak ( 4019 )
      You seem to misunderstand the GPL. The likely result if they manage to make it releasable GPL-only is that the IP department will say they can't release it at all, meaning your source code will NEVER be used.

      The GPL DOES NOT FORCE YOU TO RELEASE ANYTHING!!!! It forces you to release the source code if you distribute the program. Get that in your head.

      Trying to force the code to be GPL is probably worse than anything. It took a long time to locate what libBFD is. It is used to read/write elf and coff for

      • Re:Add a few librarys (Score:3, Insightful)

        by brejc8 ( 223089 )
        Youre getting a bit touchy about this.
        The project is a university project and the first principle of such is to educate and explore. It is not there to make money nor to create copyright or patents for the university.
        If you are studying or researching you can write any code you like to help with the research but it does belong to the University. The University is not going to say "You are no longer allowed to code" or "never use GPL'd librarys again". Students job isn't to code for the university and resear
        • Sorry. I just meant to counteract the common fud that adding GPL code is going to destroy any commercial value for the code. If in fact it has commercial value as closed-source to the evil university they will have little to no difficulty removing the GPL library. They will also likely blame the writer for putting it in there, rather than admit that the use of the GPL library probably got the thing tested and implemented sooner.

          Using the GPL library to make your job easier is perfectly fine. But trying to

  • Getting your project out into the world.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by deanj ( 519759 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @11:06AM (#5789647)
    I've been in this situation before, on several different projects. Getting something through the intellectual property office, or whatever your version of it is called, is a complete nightmare.
    Since the internet boom, universities have been looking at software with an eye towards making money from about anything they could. I avoid that office until I absolutely can't.

    Anyway....

    First, is this something related to what you're doing at work? Did you come up with it, and work on it at work? If you didn't, they shouldn't be able to touch it. (insert standard "I'm not a lawyer, check with one of you're worried" disclaimer here).

    If you did work on it at work, I seriously doubt this is something you can win, since you did use their resources to create it. I was never able to. The best I came up with was copyright by the university, free for non-commercial use. If someone uses it commercially, they have to obtain a license from the university.

    A couple of tips:

    1) First, hound the lawyers. I don't mean daily, but I do mean at least once every couple of weeks. If you don't, your release form will go to the bottom of the pile and you'll wait months and months. That's because there are many other people trying to get their patents, licenses, etc. approved. Be nice, friendly, but persistent. You'll need a good contact there in case someone actually does ask for the commerical license.

    2) Don't expect to actually sell a commerical license. I've had many requests for commercial licenses, and none of them panned out. We charge about $3000 for the code (which is very cheap, if you compare it to the commerical world), and no further fees, but no one touched it.

    3) If you accept changes from the outside to the code base you're maintaining, make it clear that it's under this license. The license should probably state something like that. This will make the lawyers feel better.

    4) If at ALL possible, see if you can get a general license approved, that you can use to send out stuff that you'll come up with later. You'll still have to run it by the lawyers, but it'll take much less time.

    5) If you're aware of any other software project that's gone through this before, find those folks, and ask them about all this. They might have something you can use to make the lawyers feel better. You might end up being this person if you're the one blazing the trail at your University. I know our license ended up being used by other projects after people consulted with me.

    6) If you have no idea what to put in a license like this, look around at other universities that have released code like this, run it by the lawyers and see what they say.

    7) This isn't really related to the license, but worth doing. Set up something to count the number of downloads you get on your software. Set up a mailing list too. If someone tries to axe the project because "no one uses it", you'll have ammo for that argument.

    Good luck with all this. It's a real pain, but if you get a community behind your project to support you, it's worth it.
  • people are allowed to view the source code and use the software if they are students or universities. If they are businesses or freelancers they must pay a fee for each licence.
  • There's nothing that I'm aware of that says that you can't SELL open source software.

  • The GPL is a GOOD idea for commercial software (Score:4, Insightful)

    by spitzak ( 4019 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @12:39PM (#5790687) Homepage
    It guarantees nobody else can "extend" it and sell it as their own product.

    Nothing prevents you from selling closed-source versions of the same code you release GPL. You can provide official support or installation or manuals (no reason to release the good manuals with the GPL code). Or you can also add a few extensions of your own to the closed-source version so it has more value other than just official support.

    The GPL version may be extremely useful for advertising your program. If it does anything useful you will find awareness of your program very high.

    You can also copyright the name of the program in such a way that anybody forking a version is forced to change the name significantly so there is no way to confuse the two. If your name is considered "official" then that other version will have a hard time competing.

    The problem is your IP department has been brainwashed into believing the GPL is bad for them. In some cases they are so stupid that they think it is worse than releasing the code public-domain. In fact unless you have millions of dollars in marketing budget, the GPL is the only method you have to make your product commercially viable. Microsoft is scared to death of this competition appearing which is why they are fighting it in every way they can, including posting some misleading letters here.

    • The only problem with this, which may or may not be serious, is the possibility of competitors stealing code from your GPL project.

      Of course outright copying would be illegal, but how are you going to prove it? Are you going to have to constantly throw money at lawyers to get subpoenas to look at your (closed-source) competitors' code? Will the legal system even allow you to do that?

      Plus a competitor could "contaminate" their code with yours without really taking it line-by-line; a patent may be helpful a
      • If you have a really clever "core algorithim" that is itself valuable you may want to keep that code secret. This could be done while GPL'ing the rest (you add an exception to the GPL for the additional code that is in a .o file, this is totally legal under GPL rules because all the code is yours). I agree with you that bugs and things people want to change are usually not in the "clever" part but in the boring parts that there is no reason to hide, and thus such a secret part lowers the value of the releas
  • As much as I hate providing a compromise in this situation: Do as Trolltech: Release freely under an OpenSource license. Release under a commercial license for a fee. Make contributions back to your code repository can be relicensed. (n) Profit!!!?!?!?!?. ahem...

  • They need you as much as you need them (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If the university is ever going to make any money of off this, they need you to help. They just don't have an in-house software shop that can take your code, fire you, and crunch it into a well oiled and QA'd product and provide tech support, etc. They need you to write it; they need you to use your expertise in what it does to market it, by finding the company that is willing to buy a commercial license to it; etc, etc.

    Point them to the kermit project at Columbia university. You need to talk to your bo

  • have you read the FSF doc about this? (Score:3, Informative)

    by ciaran_o_riordan ( 662132 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @01:58PM (#5791624) Homepage
    I should assume you have read this document but
    I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere:
    (Releasing Free Software if you work at a University)
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/univers ity.html

    Hope this helps.
    Ciaran O'Riordan
  • Gee, uh, how much research do you think that research school of yours will be able to do without any bling-bling?

    Like it or not, giving away software doesn't usually fall under research. If they're paying your salary, suck it up and deal with it.
    • Except, one of the principles of scientific research in general is that results should be made as widely available as possible so that others may verify, apply, and extend the results. It's through having your work well-known that academic careers are made. The terms of the agreements through which research is funded often dictate how the results are disseminated, and the terms may allow the university to commercialize the results. Not good terms, IMHO. Universities are not commercial enterprises, nor s

  • Oxford University (Score:3, Informative)

    by cperciva ( 102828 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @07:19PM (#5794988) Homepage
    I ran into this issue at Oxford University, which lays claim to potentially marketable IP produced by its students (which includes myself). Talking to the Research Services Office, however, I explained that being able to distribute my work was critical for the success of my research, and they agreed that "a university member's research must take priority over any commercial benefit"; once I put together a copyright statement which disclaimed all liability -- several times -- they were quite happy to let me distribute my work.

    In short, if this is research, it's quite likely that the university will allow you to distribute it regardless of the official policies; but if you were hired for the purpose of writing a piece of software... well, it belongs to the university and they can do whatever they like with it.

    • We've come to a similar conclusion at the research institution I work for, however it requires more advanced planning. If we're doing something that we want to release as open source, we get the sponsors to write a letter saying that they want such and such software that we're working on released as open source because it will help advance research in that area, makes it easier for us to collaborate with our peers at other institutions, etc.

      Repeat after me: The person holding the purse strings is always ri

  • One way to have avoided this problem in the first place is to make use of the adage "If you don't want no for an answer, don't ask". I have seen many research groups at my university go ahead and release software under the GPL without ever asking the lawyers. I have never heard of any problems resulting from this tactic. But if the suits ever did get mad at you, you can just say "Hey, I didn't realize that this software was commercially viable. No problem, we can still sell a closed source version!".
    • Heh, I did this with some software..

      Btw, this is a reason why the GNU project ask for your copyright. So if you want to give them code under the GPL, you must first show that you do indeed have the copyright for the code, the right to make it GPL. Last thing you want is for a bit of software to become very popular, and then the university turns round and tells everyone they want their program back, because the person who gave it away didn't have the right to.
  • the LGPL might be a more appropriate license if the product could be commercially viable.
  • Use GPLed code in your code - then your code can only be released under GPL. If your University tried to sell this software they would be breaching the license conditions under which you initially used someone elses GPLed code (ie they would be breaching copyright). I doubt it should be too hard to find some useful GPLed code to perform some trivial task in your software (or maybe even something significant thus saving you some time).

    Forcing the hand of the "intellectual property" office sounds somewhat mo

  • It is understandable i the world we live in that the Bean Counters have no concept of the public good. If there is just the tiniest remote possibility of a financial return to the University - which did, after all, pay for it to be written - they want to keep that possibility alive.

    So you need to put something in the other pan of the scales - something which will advantage the University from an OS release.

    Presumably this software is (a) useful for your research, or you wouldn't have written it, (b) usef
  • Several years ago, I was in a similar position working in the research part of a large telecom company. I couldn't talk the lawyers into GPL, but did manage to convince them to let me distribute freely, where the license allowed use and modification but not redistribution (that was as far as I could get them to go at the time).

    The arguments that convinced them to allow me to go forward were about the business aspects of trying to market the software. When would the company make a firm decision to move f

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