DSL Hardware for Wiring Condos? 515
Condo-Netwerk asks: "I'm trying to prepare a proposal for my condo building to be our own DSL provider. With 160 units, we should be able to get a T1 and keep the price fairly low. But what's the up-front cost? Which hardware should we use? What do we need to know about Copper Mountain, Avidia, etc. to do our due diligence prior to selecting hardware? I'm also helping a friend spec cabling for a new 30-unit condo building he's putting up; he wants to pull cat5 and split a DSL line from the phone room to each unit. Caveats? Experiences? Is it better to use cat6 or fiber?"
Why DSL? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Why DSL? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why DSL? (Score:5, Insightful)
- It is probably cheaper to go wired when you are in an apartment block or building a new housing development.
- Wireless sucks when you have a lot of people on it. (Cebit this year was a mess).
Re:Why DSL? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why DSL? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most commercial buildings have a wiring closet on each floor that houses switches for that floor. The switches from each floor are connected to a central (REALLY FAST) switch that typically has all the routing rules on it. Routers for Internet and other network connections are also connected in here, giving everyone on the whole network access (per permissions) to "the world."
If your condos are distributed widely, I'd keep considering DSL but try and figure out a way to go with Ethernet. I'd avoid wireless for the time being, but consider other technologies like IP over power lines.
There are other posts below that detail other considerations to be made when providing your own network service, such as developing a TOS and all that's encumbered there.
Combo 10/100/1000 + fiber (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Combo 10/100/1000 + fiber (Score:4, Informative)
As a side note, if you are going to wire the whole building together with ethernet, you probably want to do some degree of electrical issolation between units. It would really suck if one power surge took out all the networking equiptment and all the computers in the building. Certainly the minimum should be fiber optics (instead of copper wires) between the switches.
Re:Combo 10/100/1000 + fiber (Score:4, Insightful)
Frankly, the biggest cost is going to be cabling the individual units. How many drops to each unit? One in each bedroom and living room? Even if it's just one, it can cost hundreds of dollars per unit just for the labor of installing the cable.
I guess this is the reason for looking at cablemodem head ends (about 12K for a small one) or DSLAMS (no idea how much - assuming they are pretty pricey.) You can use existing wiring.
Re:Why DSL? (Score:3, Informative)
The 100 meter limit has nothing to do with ethernet. That's the limit for the Category 5 specification. If your cable run happens to be 10 meters longer than the spec allows then when you hook up a tester it could very well pass every single test except for cable length. It might very well be quite capable of running 100Mb et
Re:Why DSL? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you absolutely need to use the existing copper or something - in which case a DSL solution would work nicely...
Re:Why DSL? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing, except to vote in favor of it.
Best way would be wireless for the extra advantages it gives to users to work anywhere in their condos without the hassle of cables and plugs proximity.
But, if you don't like it, go Ethernet you just need a router, a patch-panel and CAT5 cabling. No splitters, no DSL modems. However, you need to cable all the building.
Re:Why DSL? (Score:4, Insightful)
With the whole Condo on the same WiFi network, you're likely to have bandwidth and security issues. Personally, I would recommend going with the ehternet approach all going into a shared T-1.
If people want Wireless connectivity, that's fine! Let them provide it themselves by suggesting they run out and buy a Linksys (or somesuch) at their local BestBuy or Fry's. Or perhaps, hook up a few pringles cans and provide it as an option in addition to the wired network. But having WiFi as the only solution would likely be more trouble than it's worth (IMO). Of the two options I present here, I'd prefer the former.
Re:Why DSL? (Score:2, Interesting)
The only problem might be that it was just a large network - anyone could see all the other computers on the n
Re:Why DSL? (Score:4, Informative)
The answer to this problem is Layer-3 switching, and VLANs.
Put every apartment unit on it's own VLAN, and at the Core, use access-lists to prevent each VLAN from accessing it's neighbors.
The hardware costs are nominal, as you only need one Layer-3 enabled device at the core, and the access layer switches can be fairly modest. In Cisco-speak, each VLAN interface would look like this, and the attached access-list would prevent Inter-neighbor traffic:
Since I'm a Cisco bigot by trade, I'd recommend a Cataylst 3550 (w/the SMI image) as the core device, and Cat 2900XLs at the access layer. Use fiber between the closets as others have suggested.
I'd also recommend giving each unit it's own static NAT/PAT translation outbound to the Internet, so that if something illegal should occur, you can determine that unit that originated the trouble. No sense getting everyone in trouble (Certainly not you!) for a single troublemaker.
Re:Why DSL? (Score:3, Informative)
IP address space isn't free (for anyone!) ISPs (subject to ARIN) MUST provide "detailed" justification for assignments of /24 or larger blocks to end users. I work for an ISP. I go through this shitty processes several times a year. I know very well what goes on w.r.t. address allocations. Yes, you get address space from your ISP. For a fee. As long as you can justify the allocation. (160 condos is far too small for
Re:Why DSL? (Score:4, Informative)
Let me explain some bandwidth math to you, since you haven't managed to pick any up at your day job.
Obtaining a T-1 Internet connection to a Tier-1 ISP (Not some low rent ISP 6 AS hops away from MAE-East) costs in the neighborhood $1200 - $1500 per month.
Now, obtaining a Point-to-point T-1, intra-lata, costs around $295 per month; maybe a little more or less depending on the carrier.
If I purchase 100Mbps service at a co-lo, with no traffic metering, and a rack space, I pay a lot, but I can support 70 T-1 connections without any over subscription(!).
So do some math...
In my other posts, I specifically addressed using multiple T-1s, which again, is a lot more expensive when the other end of the circuit terminates at a Tier-1 ISP than when it terminates at your own equipment. So the equation is not "$100/month for 1/160th of 1.5Mbps." It's "$850/month for Rent" vs. "$950/month for Rent, and Free High-speed Internet."
You, as the renter, have no idea what I'm charging you for the Internet access. It's a hidden cost...
Who said anything about getting address space from ARIN? I'm talking about getting it from an upstream provider... And it's dirt fucking cheap, when you're turning around and collecting $1200/year for each address.
Lastly...
I'll try to remember that as I wander up and down the butt-empty co-location facilities here in the Northern Virginia/Dulles Corridor area...
My co-lo rack can service a lot more than 1 T-1 connection... It's called economies of scale. You should read a book some time.
You almost have a point... Yes, 1 rack at a co-lo, plus 1 T-1, to 1 remote locations would be far more expensive than a single T-1 connection to an ISP... And it may indeed always be that way...
But 1 rack at a co-lo, plus 15 T-1s, split across 5 remote locations is a far cry cheaper than 15 T-1s to ISPs.
And with the markup at the customer end, you can see why this would make money.
Of course, with all of your "I work at an ISP" experience, you might not be aware that making money is the point of the business in the first place.
Re:Moderators on drugs (Score:3, Funny)
You haven't even provided a name, much less any kind of credential, testifying to your level of expertise.
You have a cursory understanding of the OSI model, which is great in preparing for th Net+ exam, I suppose, but really doesn't qualify you to sift through postings on Slashdot, and determine who does, and does not, know what they are talking about.
I've been working exclusively in the network space for the past 13 years, primarily with Cisco routers and switches for the past 9.
Re:Why DSL? (Score:3, Insightful)
- The only problem might be that it was just a large network - anyone could see all the other computers on the network, and access shared folders (like newer versions of Windows set up by default).
Not necessarily. Can you "browse" all the computers connected to your DSL line? Or dialup?He'll have the same problem with DSL.
This is an implementation issue. It has very little to do with the connecting technology.
Re:Why DSL? (Score:2)
Re:Why DSL - Ethernet? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why DSL? (Score:2)
This may not actually be such a bad idea. You'll have to look at the security implications. Each resident would need a WiFi card or router, but that's a lot cheaper than a DSL modem, especially since some residents will want to connect a WiFi router to their DSL modem anyway. Residents would have (sort of) 11Mbps connectivity amongst themselves (assuming IEEE802.11b), which neighbors who become friends (or friends who become neighbors) will appreciate.
my thoughts (Score:5, Informative)
Cat5 is overkill for a phone line, and you don't need anything better for DSL. Sounds like a pretty good idea - with splitters in the phone room, residents don't have to worry about filtering at the jack, which means no hassle for anybody who DOESN'T want DSL, except that they have an extra jack that (depending on the splitter) may not work for a phone. For those that do, they'll have to plug their DSL modem into that one particular jack, since no other jack will work. One source of confusion from the resident's perspective: if they sign up for DSL through the phone company, the standard installation instructions will not apply, and if they don't understand the technology at all, they could have problems dealing with tech support (who won't be aware of this setup, unless the customer knows enough to tell them what they've got).
As for being your own DSL provider, I'd say you've got two issues to worry about: connectivity from you to the Internet, and connectivity from you to each resident. I see three options for wiring: use the same pair as voice (requiring microfilters on each jack, or a splitter and dedicated jack in each unit), run DSL on the outer pair (requiring a line swapper for each DSL modem, or a dedicated jack wired for the second pair), or use a separate wire (requiring new wiring to each unit, with a dedicated jack). At your end, the first option also requires splitting. The second option may cause problems for anyone who wants a second phone line (not uncommon for roommates), since there would no longer be an extra pair conveniently available. The third option could be expensive and intrusive, unless it's only done for residents who sign up.
I'm sure I'm not considering a lot of important details. My experience is with tech support over the phone, not hardware installation.
First non-troll post? hehe
Yeh, except the hardware will be expensive as fuck (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:my thoughts (Score:5, Informative)
First off, avoid running Cat5/5e/6; that will cost you a fortune (as several people have mentioned). Avoid wireless; there are so many technical variables with 802.11b (spectrum bleed and interference, antenna placement, coverage overlap---the list is long, and the price of spectrum analyzers, which you need to place properly access points, isn't exactly cheap) before you even get to the user and security problems that, in your case, I would skip it. And for all the flamers readying their torches, yes, I am quite familiar with all the 802.11 variants---I voted on them (I am an IEEE member), so I am quite qualified to make the statements that I just made.
Most providers I have dealt with (as an employee or as a partner/reseller) are muxing 24 DSL lines per T-1, though this is beginning to change (due to cost-cutting measures). Some providers are muxing 48 per T-1, and SBC is considering an even higher number (glad I don't use SBC). DSLAMs can be cheap or expensive, so do your homework on them. As I write this I am looking at the lights on an InterSpeed Dart DSLAM (http://www.celeronet.com/dart.html): it takes Ethernet/Fast Ethernet or T-1/E-1 in and provides 8 SDSL ports out. We have been pleased with them. Command-line or Web-browser configuration, access-control lists (if needed), etc. They offer a turnkey solution. You may want to look at it.
We also have Cisco equipment, Alcatel---you name it. We also have service contracts on all of this equipment. You will, in effect, be your own phone company, so what are you planning to do about bad hardware (both your own provider equipment and "customer" equipment)? Some of these companies will give you a service contract, and some will not.
You should also be aware that your local phone company (LEC) may frown upon your use of the current twisted-pair cabling for DSL. Check that---the telco WILL frown at what you are doing. True, it is your copper, but don't be surprised if your LEC decides to blame all future telephone problems in your building on you.
You should have conditioned power for your telecom equipment. Other people will argue it isn't needed, but I'm a telco guy, it is a standard in all telcos, and I would prefer having it.
There are many other things you should consider. Are you planning on offering all traditional services (i.e., e-mail, news, etc.)? If so, have you considered the legal implications? What are your plans for support? What are your plans for defective customer hardware?
Best of luck to you.
Re:my thoughts (Score:3, Funny)
A T1 might not be enough. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A T1 might not be enough. (Score:2, Interesting)
A T1 would work perfectly for this.
Out of 160 units, how many are going to be online at the same time?
That is the problem.
Also if it was me, and since this is for a home user. I would call and see if you can get a nice DSL line. SBC Offers a DSL line that is a T1 Upload, and 6MB download for around $400 a month.
We have a local wireless ISP with about 400 customers. Feeding them all off this line. Bastards! They are making mega bucks at charging these people $40 a month.
Re:A T1 might not be enough. (Score:2)
Re:A T1 might not be enough. (Score:5, Interesting)
At least consider an IMA ATM solution. You can aggregate up to 8 (if I remember correctly) T1s into a single router, where the load will balance nicely between them. I did this at my last company when our bandwidth overran the T1 we had. It was a hell of a lot cheaper than a Frac T3, and the router is a lot less too. You can get a Cisco 2651 with the IMA ATM module and throw some cheap Kingston RAM in it to handle up to 4 T1s. Chances are you can get away with 2 T1s or maybe 3 IMHO. The parts are something like:
1 CSU per T1 (I dig the Kentrox 72656 and 72658 myself)
1 Cisco 2651
1 IMA ATM network module
max out the RAM with Kingston for virtually no $$$
The config takes less than 15 minutes and it works like a charm! Good luck!
Re:A T1 might not be enough. (Score:3, Informative)
Cisco makes a 4 and 8 port IMA adapter that can be used in their 3600 Series routers. (You might be able to use it in the 269x routers (Which come with plenty of RAM in the default config)... I don't recall
Also, as the other commented noted, no DSUs required for this Network Module. It has 4 or 8 RJ-45 sockets, so just plug in the T-1s as you add them. Good solution for fault tolerance, too, as a single T-1 outage simply lowers the overall bandwidth, rather than taking down your con
no kidding. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A T1 might not be enough. (Score:4, Insightful)
My advice (Score:5, Informative)
1) Don't put DSL to each unit - pull CAT-5 and run Ethernet. Your residents will have a much easier time getting hardware than with DSL, and your costs will be less.
2) Pull the wire to a common router closet.
3) One port per unit
4) Lock down the ports that aren't being used.
5) Use DHCP to assign addresses.
6) Set up your own caching server. I would recommend using Squid.
7) Force all outbound port 25 (SMTP) through your mail server.
8) Run a virus scanner on your mail server. Scan all incoming AND outgoing mail.
9) Don't route the Microsoft file sharing ports or Apple Rendezvous ports between units.
10) Insist customers keep their machines virus free. Disconnect any who don't IMMEDIATELY.
11) Write into your rental contracts that you ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for maintaining your customer's machines or security - if they are scared let them run their own firewall.
12) Offer your own space, accessible to your users, with virus scanner updates, MS patches, and so on. Encourage them to use that to save bandwidth.
13) Routinely sniff around for WAPs. Handle them as you see fit - disconnect, or verify they are set up sanely. Don't ignore them.
Many will disagree with some of my points (esp. 7 and 9). Ask yourself this: do I enjoy being blacklisted for spamming?
Re:My advice (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm a little confused by 10 too. Are you suggesting that he should disconnect anybody not running a virus scanner? Isn't this a little harsh for people running Linux/BSD/Amiga/etc...? IMHO, virus scanners are less important than Firewalls these days. You can avoid viruses with a little common sense, but you cannot avoid unknown remote exploits in your OS.
Also, with 4 are you talking about the physical ports, or TCP/UDP ports?
One final
Re:My advice (Score:3, Interesting)
Point #10: No, I'm not saying they have to run a virus scanner. I am saying that if they are infected, and if they refuse to correct the problem, you pull their connection.
Point #4: Physical ports - in other words, if a unit isn't signed up for access the port is dead.
Final point: I was making my points in a brief, straightforward fashion, so as to keep my message short and easily understood. OF COURSE when you present the
Re:My advice (Score:2)
Re:My advice (Score:5, Funny)
too tight, ditch the extra M$ work. (Score:4, Informative)
It's amazing how far out of their way people will go to support Microsoft's crap. More than half of your list is Microsoft specific. Realize also that #10, " Insist customers keep their machines virus free. Disconnect any who don't IMMEDIATELY." eliminates the need for most of the other M$ virus precations, especially the silly M$ patch server which could get you a BSA visit. Why bother when you could recomend Linux or a Mac?
All small ISPs are going to be blacklisted by AOL/MSNBC regardless of how well or poorly you treat your users.
Re:too tight, ditch the extra M$ work. (Score:3, Informative)
I never said "Non-routeable addresses" - I simply said filter certain ports that have no business going beyond one unit.
By "locking down unused ports" I meant PHYSICAL ports, not IP ports - as in "If Joe hasn't signed up for it the RJ-45 in his place is dead."
Re:too tight, ditch the extra M$ work. (Score:5, Informative)
How'd you come up with this? Only one thing even mentioned Microsoft, and also mentioned Apple in the same breath. Let's see:
1) Don't put DSL to each unit - pull CAT-5 and run Ethernet. Your residents will have a much easier time getting hardware than with DSL, and your costs will be less.
OS independant.
2) Pull the wire to a common router closet.
OS independant.
3) One port per unit
OS independant.
4) Lock down the ports that aren't being used.
OS independant.
5) Use DHCP to assign addresses.
OS independant.
6) Set up your own caching server. I would recommend using Squid.
OS independant.
7) Force all outbound port 25 (SMTP) through your mail server.
OS independant.
8) Run a virus scanner on your mail server. Scan all incoming AND outgoing mail.
Ok, *most* viruses are Windows-based. Most != all, however.
9) Don't route the Microsoft file sharing ports or Apple Rendezvous ports between units.
Again, mostly a Microsoft issue.
10) Insist customers keep their machines virus free. Disconnect any who don't IMMEDIATELY.
Remember, there are viruses for every platform out there.
11) Write into your rental contracts that you ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for maintaining your customer's machines or security - if they are scared let them run their own firewall.
OS independant.
12) Offer your own space, accessible to your users, with virus scanner updates, MS patches, and so on. Encourage them to use that to save bandwidth.
There have been an order of magnitude more patches for my RedHat box this past month than for all versions of Windows combined. And most Windows patches have little to do with viruses, although many of these vulnerabilities do end up being exploited by worms at some point.
13) Routinely sniff around for WAPs. Handle them as you see fit - disconnect, or verify they are set up sanely. Don't ignore them.
Has nothing to do with what OS people run.
Of course, this doesn't even touch on the fact that the reason people spend so much time supporting Microsoft products is that Windows/Office/etc are 90%+ of their respective markets. Duh, you kind of have to. It's all fine and dandy to be an OSS zealot, but when you're trying to provide a service to people, it's rather impractical to just say 'run what I tell you to run'. That sort of thinking is why we hate Microsoft in the first place, remember?
Re:too tight, ditch the extra M$ work. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:too tight, ditch the extra M$ work. (Score:5, Informative)
Why? They can use NAT. You probably are... or are you actually going to get a class C subnet for your condo association? I wouldn't bother - it's not worth the time and money.
It does screw anyone trying to serve content, but I'm not sure that I'd care that much.
More than half of your list is Microsoft specific.
Uh... no it wasn't. There were 3 points that could be considered MS specific (8, 10, 12), and I'd dispute #8. There are Mac and Linux viruses out there. If either becomes a significant user base then there will be far, far more.
No, 7, 9, and 11 are not MS related. Number 7 deals specifically with spam. Number 9 is basic security and privacy. Number 11 is true regardless of OS -- or have you never heard of script kiddies and rootkits?
The patch server wouldn't get them a BSA visit either, you're allowed to redistribute patches.
In any case, welcome to the Real World, where 95% of all systems will be Windows. If you don't take precautions against that then you're just an idiot.
Less zealotry, more reality.
Re:too tight, ditch the extra M$ work. (Score:3, Interesting)
Exactly. I couldn't imagine how nasty the AT&T/Comcast network would be with ports 137-139 open for sniffing and cracking, especially now that XP defaults to a sharing folder. The determined will at least learn how to setup ftp, apache, IIS, etc.
As for the patch/virus server. More power to them. Every ISP should have a link to some free AV (AVG comes to mind) and windowsupdate.com. Toss in a link to Ad Aware for
Why go DSL? (Score:2, Insightful)
BTW - What's up with the lack of the ability for logged in people to post AC??
Re:Why go DSL? (Score:2)
Caches. (Score:5, Funny)
Make sure you add a squid cache at the head end, you wouldn't want all your bandwidth being used up by constant goatse.cx reloads.
Re:Caches. (Score:2)
Think Future (Score:2, Funny)
DSL (Score:2, Insightful)
If you are already going to be running cable through the complex, why not just build a 100bT network?
hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
One Cat5 caveat: Spring for "plenum" rated wire. (Score:4, Informative)
I agree totally with those suggesting using 100 Mbps Ethernet over Cat5. That's definitely the way to go. (Use DSL only if your condo is a subdivision rather than a building.)
One caveat: If the Cat5 is run in anything other than conduit - especially if it's run in an air duct - spring the extra bucks for "plenum" rated wire. In a fire the ordinary stuff may emit toxic gas. Plenum-rated wire is designed to retrofit old buildings by stringing it through the air ducts, and uses a more expensive plastic that does NOT emit toxic gas (or nowhere near as much) and also doesn't spread fire.
One other item: Check what your building's phone system is already wired with. There may already BE a 4-pair cat5 or cat5e to each unit. And if the phone company's demark point is the phone closet rather than the unit's phone junction box you folk OWN the wire. So if a unit has any two pair free you can use 'em and not have to string new stuff.
Note that 10/100 ethernet only uses two of the four pair in the bundle. Traditionally it's pair 2 (white/orange) and 3 (white/green), leaving 1 (white/blue) and 4 (white/brown) free for other things - such as a second ethernet drop, one or two phone lines, or power distribution to distant hubs and/or low-power equipment.
But the pair are all the same (except for the color code). So you can use any two pair for the ethernet feed, and sort it out at a junction at the far end. You can generally splice 'em if you're careful to keep the lengths of the two conductors in the pair equal and twist 'em back together afterward. (Don't sweat getting the twist rate to match exactly. Just avoid having a big untwisted gap with the wires hanging apart.)
Run one drop to the unit and have the unit's owner add a hub (or his own firewall machine) if he wants to run more than one box.
home grown DSL (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.paradyne.com
The bitstorm DSLAMs are very cool
Hmm... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hmm... (Score:4, Interesting)
I also agree that DSL will end up being a pain. Everyone would have to get a DSL modem. The one plus being that you can just wire the second line (outer 2 wired) of existing phone jacks. Won't be a lot of fun keeping track of it and wiring it for everyone though... especially not in one lump.
If feasable, I'd say go the cat5 route as well, running ethernet and a good switch. You may have to consider security disclaimers as well, if this puts all your tenants on the same subnet. There will be risks involved if they don't use firewalls in their own home (like anyone on a public network should).
One nice thing though with a good 10/100 connection to the local network, your tenants will be able to share files, play games, etc. with each other at nice speeds. I wouldn't mind having a building LAN party! *grin*
-Alex
Re:Hmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
The average user will get home and all use the network at the same time. Like I said, even if 20% use it, it will still suck. Unfortunately, unused bandwidth throughout the day doesn't accumulate for later use.
It would be useful.. to house-wives, student, and the many unemployed geeks in the building. The point being that at peek times the network will suck, and that time wil be the time people will naturally want/tend to use it.
This situation just reminds me of those screwy propgan
It Depends (Score:3, Insightful)
How are the buildings laid out, and are there wiring closets for clusters of condos? Is this a single tower, or is it laid out horizontally into quad units or something?
If you're involved in wiring a tower as it's being built, the plan would be vastly different from one for existing building spread over several acres.
Long Reach Ethernet (Score:5, Informative)
Keeps the cost down, doesn't require a DSLAM, allows for VLAN separation. The C575 has a single 10/100 port, the C585 has four ports. Uses xDSL signalling, so it is compatible with standard voice telephone wiring, and can share a line with voice using POTS splitters.
We use it on a campus wide installation over old underground CAT1/CAT3 cable, and get from 1 to 15 megabits, depending on distance (out to 5000 feet).
Should be fine for a condo.
Or, you could use Cisco 828 SDSL router/bridges back to back, but LRE would be a cleaner, more versatile implementation, with higher maximum speeds.
Cat 5 (Score:3, Interesting)
I also seriously doubt that one 1.5mbit T1 will be enough for 160 DSL connections. It's not even fast enough to support one DSL connection where I live; my 3.5mbit DSL connection, which sets me back about 35$ US per month, would be horribly slow if piped through a T1.
Now, I realize that most people don't have 3.5mbit. Everybody in eastern Canada (At least Quebec and Ontario) have access to 1mbit DSL (1.2mbit minus overhead). It'd only take two people to try to download at the same time to saturate your T1. What if 10 people tried to download? How much would YOU pay for a 150kbit internet connection?
Keep an eye out for auctions (Score:2)
Does everyone want it? (Score:5, Insightful)
If only 25% of people in your complex want the service, depending on which provider you're getting with, installation and continued service could be a shaky proposition.
Re:Does everyone want it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Man, I wouldn't trust a condo board with something like providing me internet connectivity for love nor money... I don't feel like putting network issues up for a popular vote or trusting the condo board to "get it" when it's time to allocate funds for equipment, maintenance, etc. Unless you're going to hire somebody to maintain it, or get yourself a contract, do you really want to be the free tech support guy for *160* users who know where you live.
Re:Does everyone want it? (Score:3, Informative)
cost per unit = $100 / 50 = $2 per UNIT.
Downside: if it went down there was nobody to call, it would take the person in charge a day to figure out that it was down and get around to fixing it.
Upside. Did I mention it was $2 a month? Well actually it was free. The condo board was able to do it without raising the
why is everyone interested in doing hard? (Score:2)
make it web based administration and you are done.
why waste time with DSL or other crap like that?
Re:why is everyone interested in doing hard? (Score:2)
DUH!
I'd add the requirement that each user MUST use a smb barricade or other hardware firewall. if you live in a condo you can afford the $80.00 for one is nothing.
Bandwidth sharing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bandwidth sharing (Score:2)
do that math and 2400 BPS looks good.
ISP bandwidth is not as simple as you think, basically take the number of people you can fit on it comfortably... Say 30 for a T-1 and multiply by 10 and that is your percieved saturation point.
1 T1 for 160 units is more than plenty, yes at times it will be slow, but hey EVERYTHING can be slow at times.
Re:Bandwidth sharing (Score:2)
Use a managed switch with per-port bandwidth caps, or use a good traffic-shaping capable router between the switches and the upstream connection.
Then you either a) allow people to buy extra bandwidth, or b) simply put QoS directives onto the P2P and other bandwidth-hungry stuff.
I looked at this about a year ago... (Score:5, Interesting)
The 100MB was MORE than enough for the 1.5MB internet pipe, and as an added bonus the dwellings could game with each other on a true 100MB LAN!
Re:I looked at this about a year ago... (Score:2, Funny)
Why not run ethernet? (Score:5, Insightful)
-Dan
Think ahead (Score:2, Insightful)
Keep it simple (Score:2)
Why DSL? (Score:2)
Just use plain old twisted-pair Ethernet...
Re:Why DSL? (Score:2)
I can think of a simple reason to use DSL instead of ethernet: wiring. Why run through each building and into multiple rooms running cat5, cutting holes, etc, when you can just use the outlets for phone that are already installed?
DSL is plenty fast enough and easier to install after-the-fact.
The other alternative is wireless. Perhaps no more labor-intensive than setting up DSL (remember, using the existing phonelines) and as easy as placing and firing up a few APs. Done.
A Powerline Comm possibility (Score:3, Informative)
DSL? Why? (Score:2, Funny)
DSL doesn't seem like the best way, but then again, I have cat5 running throughout my house/duplex, down halls, stairs, under doors, to my room. I had to convince the gf that she just had to 'deal with it'. (she is a neat freak)
connectivity through the power grid? (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's the link [gigafast.com]
Wiring for Ether Expensive (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, the advantages of DSL should be obvious: no new cable needs to be laid. You can just install the DSL equipment at the central phone switch of the condos, and then give each resident a DSL modem. Much simpler, much cheaper.
But I agree -- a T1 isn't going to cut it for 160 heavy users. If you only expect moderate use, you might be able to squeak by. I'd combine multiple T1s (better redundency) or spring for a T3 (nominally cheaper per megabit). The choice is yours.
-Shylock
Re:Wiring for Ether Expensive (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wiring for Ether Expensive (Score:3, Interesting)
Let someone in the business do it (Score:5, Insightful)
As for what I would do, don't go DSL unless you have to. DSL is only needed if you are really going over the limit of Ethernet and you want the rate limitiing built into most DSL boxes. It ain't like slapping in a Cisco router or your linux router in there.
The sizing should be in the 20 to 40 users per T1 and then you have to do load balancing between them - more fun and games.
And for your friend who is cabling his building project, he should put both CAT5+/6 and fiber. Only expect to use the copper for now but at only 50 bucks a unit to rough it in its worth it when you really want to do it.
Non-technical aspects. (Score:2)
How will you get the condo board to go for any such proposal. Chances are most people in your building don't know anything about networking and will be happy with their dial-ups...if they have internet access at all.
I'm finding it hard enough to get my condo to start a DVD library.
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
umm you're gonna need more than a T1 for 160 units (Score:2, Informative)
Re:umm you're gonna need more than a T1 for 160 un (Score:3, Insightful)
Coincidence? (Score:2)
An idea I have is to run wireless between the buildings in the complex and Cat5 inside each attic to drops for each unit. It wouldn't take very many wireless runs to connect all the buildings together. That would be nice. I would much rather run Cat5 to each building, but I doubt I can get the permission to do that kind of digging nor do I really want to dig. Hiring someone to do it would be too expensive.
Anyone know a goo
DS1/T1 are cheap nowadays (Score:2)
Get a T1/DS1 service over DSL. Better QoS, better care from the Telco if something breaks. If you need more bandwidth, bond a pair of DS1 or get a fr
Hire a pro (Score:5, Insightful)
I really wouldn't recommend pulling the cable yourself unless you really know what you're doing. BTW, depending on where it's pulled, it might need to be plenum or riser rated, and there may additional fire/code regulations for your area. You may need a license for cabling - but the cabling people would know all that.
My Apartment (Score:4, Informative)
With approximately 1000 total residents for all the buildings, this setup worked fairly well at first because not very many people had computers that were network-ready.
Around late 1999, the network began slowing down. A year later, streaming video was impossible, and by late 2001, I was better off using a dialup. It was BAD.
About a year ago, they added two more T-1s, and it's been smooth sailing since. There are about 400 people in my building, maybe 500 in the next, and 100 or so in the other places. The network is almost always fast. Obviously this is due to adding the extra bandwidth. One can assume that the user-base has reached its saturation by now (almost everyone has a computer with a NIC, since it's a student-oriented place), so they probably won't have any more speed problems.
They banned Kazaa and Morpheus, and apparently that helped. They don't give you an e-mail address or server space. They simply provide network connectivity. It's actually not a bad deal -- at $100/year, it's as fast an any cable modem or DSL connection.
I think two T-1s would probably be alright for only 160 units. And I might recommend Cat-5E wiring. We just rewired my work's building with about 500 data ports, using 5E. Everything is gigabit ready. Sure, 100-base-T is fast, but are you gonna want to rewire the whole damn place in five years when you want gig? Probably not. It cost us $120,000 for those 500 data ports and about 300 voice ports. Plan ahead!
Globe199
Hidden costs / SLAs (Score:5, Insightful)
You could run the entire block off a low-end Cisco router, but are you budgeting for a Cisco service contract and / or a 'hot spare' router?
How about line monitoring and alerts? Backups / service contracts for your switches? Environmental systems to keep your equipment closet nice and frosty? Factored in the electrical costs of that to your business plan?
Who's going to support the system? What do you do if a switch craps out at 3am? Running a community ISP can be fun, but it's *less* fun if you've not thought of these things before you start.
Thing of the bigger picture (Score:5, Interesting)
You also need to think of other possible options.
A big one, Voice over IP. With a 100 meg backbone in place, you could replace all the traditional phone service as well as providing internet.
(some legal issues here to look at though).
I'd implement it as follows
1. Do a SURVEY of interested tenants. Include VOIP as an option.
2. check Cat3 option, use it if possible.
3. Get some
when something fails... (it would really depend on how many IDF's you are going to place)
4. Plan your IDF locations carefully. Remember environmental and power factors.
5. Use the WIFI AP's to go from IDF to MDF on a temporary basis until you can rollout a fiber backbone.
6. Monitor and then put Rate-limiting into effect for the people who abuse the service, i.e. mp3's and warez out to the outside world.
7. Make clear service terms so the users know what to expect and what not to do.
8. Someone will have to monitor/troubleshoot this service. If you don't have someone, an option would be contract out with a Local ISP, or
perhaps a local computer consultant.
Finally, for those not interested in paying a monthly fee, offer LAN access for free, (to get them hooked as it were)
Without knowing more details the above is all I can give you. Hope it works out!
Don't forget the lawyers (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Have a good privacy policy
You may need to fall back on it if the authorities (or the RIAA) come knocking for your logs. If they badger you into turning them over without a court order, you could be in one of those stories about the criminals sueing because they got caught.
2) Look at the big ISP's agreements for ideas
You may see something you hadn't thought of.
3) Lawyers are much more cost effective when used to prevent you from being sue, rather than defend you after the fact. Think about having one draft or review your agreement.
Not trying to scare you, just make sure you're covered if the guy on the third floor turns out to be a pedophile, terrorist, or (gasp) file trader.
Wiring Condo's - DSL or HPNA is the BEST way (Score:3, Insightful)
A couple of ways to do it. (Score:3, Informative)
Here's the easy, cheap way to do it. Go over to ebay, buy yourself a Cisco 1720 with a Wic-1T-DSU card [ebay.com] in it. Your t1 plugs into the WIC card, and ethernet port on the router plugs into your switch. You'll be able to do bandwidth limitting and port filtering as well.
From there, the only question left is the distance involved to the condos, which would dictate the structure of the ethernet design.
There are a few flaws with that design: First, with everyone on the same L2, there's no end to the mischief that someone can cause. Second, virii capable of exploiting the "network neighborhood" will spread like wildfire.
If you want to do things a bit better, put a firewall/router in each building, and wire those back to your central distribution switch. The "router" can be a $40 machine from the thrift store, with a couple of 4-port ethernet cards in them. Each ethernet port can be on it's own subnet, with appropriate firewalling on a *per port* basis. That will help you prevent lots of accidental and intentional problems that can crop up.
Of course, with 160 units, 1 t1 is pretty small. That only guarantees each unit about 10 kbits/second, which is lees than a 14.4 modem. Of course, not everyone is going to be on at the same time, but even if 1/10th of the people are on, that only guarantees them about 100 kbits/second.
When you also look at the fact that some people will use as much bandwidth as possible, then it gets even harrier. Let's say that you can each individual's bandwidth at 256k, with bursts to 512k. That means that it only takes 6 people downloading ISO's, using their favorite P2P app, watching streaming porn, or anything else to really make the connection suck for everyone.
Shop around, and see if you can get a good deal on a larger connection. Not long ago, I was offered a full DS3 (45 mbits/sec!) from Broadwing for $6k per month. While $40 per month might sound high on a per-unit basis, remember that would *guarantee* 768 kilobits per resident! There are very few places you can get that sort of *guaranteed* bandwidth for $40 per month *anywhere*.
steve
Marginally Off-topic Suggestions (Score:4, Informative)
I own a domain, and use it primarily for the unlimited mail aliases. Every site I go to gets sitename@mydomain.com, which just forwards to my main address. If they start spamming, I can tell exactly who it is, and redirect (or block entirely) the mail. Why not give each customer a subdomain (customer.condo.com) where they get, say, 5 POP boxes, but unlimited aliases? Used effectively, this could *really* fight spam. (This is venturing more offtopic, but Cpanel [cpanel.net] seems to be the most popular web-based control panel; you could provide customers with some webspace and e-mail access. It's easy to use, but even great for geeks. You can get licenses for like $40/month, or possibly less.)
Another thing I've always thought ISPs should offer was NAT access. Rather than getting an external IP, they'd get an internal one and use your proxy. It'd save you from needing as many IPs, and it gives them great security -- unless you go out of your way to set it up, no one can connect to them. Of course you shouldn't force this upon people, but some people might *want* NAT. Offer it as a 'privacy' plan. (Heh, you could probably even charge extra, lol)
Something like Squid [squid-cache.org] could really speed things up, especially if you only have a T1.
The last "If I ran an ISP..." item regards DNS. Maybe it's because Adelphia is so crappy (they have like 5 DNS servers, and whatever you have as primary ALWAYS goes down, so you're re-ordering the nameservers several times a week to make it work at all...), but I ended up using OpenNIC [unrated.net], which essentially is a 'democratic' TLD assigner; they have a lot of new TLDs not supported by 'real' DNS. (And, of course, lookups for regular TLDs work, too.) Not sure if you want to make it standard, but I'd be way impressed if an ISP gave me the choice of 'regular' DNS or OpenNIC DNS servers to use.
Oh! Don't forget to do your part and setup a good firewall. Another seemingly uncommon thing I've always thought ISPs should do was to do *good* egress filtering: filter traffic *leaving* your network too. I start to rant about this idea every time I read about a big DoS attack; if ISPs were more careful about what leaves their network, a lot of DoS attacks would simply get dropped at the attacker's ISP.
DSLAMs are cheap and plentiful! (Score:5, Informative)
1) It lets you control the top speed. I suggest that the top speed to a user be less than half of your feed speed. A company I work very closely with has almost 200 DSL lines in a luxury condominium. They feed it with only two T1s. That's quite adequate! They have to pay for that bandwidth -- backbone ISP service isn't cheap, and the T1 loops into the condo aren't free either. Of course they only provide 700 kbps service. Sure, people might like more, but the competition is dial-up, and price matters.
2) DSL tolerates long wire. It can go a few miles, after all -- even a sprawling condo complex is a short hop for DSL. Ethernet tends to be pickier.
3) ADSL can share wire with telephone. You might be able to piggyback onto the phone wire. (A CLEC can; whether you can is a different issue.)
4) DSL is cheap! Lots of providers tanked, leaving good working gear on the secondary market. A 500-line Lucent Stinger can be had for $12k; a 200-line ADSL DSLAM is maybe half that. SDSL needs its own wire pair (can't share phone like ADSL) but the DSLAMs are a glut on the market, much cheaper than even that. Check eBay, telephone.com, etc.
I'd be happy to talk more about this offline (isdnip at netscape dot net)....
Support, NAT and the Future (Score:5, Informative)
1. Put in CAT5, or even CAT6 if you can afford it. Put in twice as much as you think is reasonable. Get it certified and tested. Next time you think you need just those couple of extra pair, you won't regret it. The big hit in any infrastructure installation is labor - you are going to spend about as much for labor to have two CAT6 cables pulled in to a jack as you would pay to have one CAT5.
2. NAT would be a pain in the ass for your users if they want to do anything more complex than web browsing and mail. This sounds like a multi-year project - what do you think people are going to be doing with the Internet in two years? Doing SIP telephony, H.323 multimedia, etc. etc. through a NAT connection borders on impossible for an average user.
3. No matter what you think the skill level is of your users, cut it in half. People seem to get dumber than dirt when they get home at night. I have personal experience - I'm living in a residential compound in Kazakhstan right now. I spend my days working for the Man, nights dealing with residents who stuck floppy disks to their fridges with magnets.
4. All the cool stuff like web cache, proxy servers, even community web sites are very nice. With every single item, just think about who is going to support those things after you make your fortune and move to a grass hut in Tonga? KISS in all things.
5. On the subject of support - residents are 24/7/365. When the Smith family can't have that video conference with Grandma on Christmas morning, who they gonna call? Set up a well understood service level agreement that every resident signs. Make it simple, but clear. The rule of thumb is that if it can be explained in an elevator between floors, it's about right.
6. Fiber isn't that expensive, and there are some cool devices available now for doing lots of fun things with it. Investigate using it for house distribution. In 5 years when those 2mb DSL connections become passe', and folks start wanting those 10-20mb connections, they will look at your portrait on their mantle and smile.
7. Here's a turnaround for you: Have you thought about cable modems? Not only can you do a few channels for high speed data, you can also do digital TV distribution, and telephone distribution. What if the folks had a TV channel for the community front gate, so they could see when the mother-in-law is coming?
Have fun - this if obviously a passion for you. On those all-nighters when you are trying to solve some stupid routing problem, remember it was YOUR idea.
Andy
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wireless? (Score:2)
That's fine for clueful types, but setting up IPsec is non-trivial for the most part. Unless you want to get into the user support business, this sounds like the wrong way.
That and doing a good wireless network from scratch is hard. It's not a matter of throwing a couple of APs out there. You have to get a bunch of APs, figure out where dead spots are, fix tho
Re:Wireless? (Score:2)
Get some high quality multimode 802.11a/b/g gear and put a bunch of access points (depending on the density of the users) connected with a wired backbone.
We just rolled out the new 54mbps wireless network in a 16 story building and everything is extremely smooth. The money we are saving just in paying electricians to run cable paid for the infrastructure.
Re:T1? Is that all? (Score:4, Informative)
Ah, but a T1 is guarenteed bandwidth, and will have service level agreements in place.