Low Resource Distro and Window Manager for Kids?

Philljd asks: "Computers 4 Kids is an organization run by the IT &amp ;CS department of Wollongong University in Australia that picks up computers from the local area, installs Linux on them and gives them to needy kids. We want to know what Slashdot readers think would be the best choice of distribution and window manager for an average system spec of a Pentium 100, given that the kids are around 10-13."

Windowmaker

[PD]

This question seems to come up all the time. Windowmaker is a good choice because it's relatively easy to lock down, and it's easy to use. And, it takes few resources. There are others, but this will do the job.

More RAM

[Glonoinha]

The deciding factor in most of these posts seems to be which distro works best with minimal RAM, not which best suits your (needs / purpose / intended audience.) Just a thought - given that you can now buy the old RAM (pulls from working systems, used) by the bucket loads for like $12 per pound ($30/kilogram) - actual cost will vary depending on where you find it in bulk to buy, but will be very, very cheap for 72pin SIMMs.

I would say look into buying a BUNCH of bulk used RAM appropriate with your expecte

ice

[squant0]

Icewm [sourceforge.net] is pretty good, fast, easy, kind of looks like windows.

Slackware?

[orangesquid]

I've found slackware tends to be nice to slower hardware. Slack 3.0, for example, is running quite briskly on my 386 now that I upgraded from 3 to 7 Megs of RAM. Plus, I could fit lots of development tools and a minimalist X in 80 megs of HD and 17 megs of swap.

Of course, thanks to glibc, such things are now very tough. But, don't forget, slack used to use BSD libc (which is small and fast!), and guess what still uses it? that's right, *BSD. So if you'll consider more than just linux, don't be afraid to look at NetBSD (which is a little smaller and lighter than FreeBSD.... not sure how OpenBSD compares).

You might also want to test-run Knoppix, since it doesn't even need to be installed (so it can't hurt!).

For window managers, OpenLook VWM, FVWM, Blackbox (probably the best), or mwm. Please don't force them to use twm... they'll never want to look at a computer again!

Re:Or BSD =D

[Bastian]

I have a p133 with 8 megs of RAM. I tried Slack on it first, thinking it would be the most friendly. It was okay - the machine was responsive, but it would go into swapping hell if I tried to run a web browser.

Then I have FreeBSD a try. Much, much better. At least, enough better to make X something that I could actually run applications under and not just a bunch of pretty pictures. I'm not sure what all makes it run a bit faster, but I have a feeling part of the story is the libc and the better VM sys

Re:Slackware?

[nathanm]

I've found slackware tends to be nice to slower hardware. Slack 3.0, for example, is running quite briskly on my 386 now that I upgraded from 3 to 7 Megs of RAM. Plus, I could fit lots of development tools and a minimalist X in 80 megs of HD and 17 megs of swap.

Slackware still runs on relatively modest hardware, but it's not exactly set up for kids. It's the most unixy of the major Linux distros, aimed more towards experienced unix users.

On one hand, there are several distros that aim towards users new t

Re:Slackware?

[Brandon Sharitt]

Slackware that boots staight into Emacs. Thats all they'll ever need.

Ease of install vs. light-ness

[forsetti]

Unfortunately, I have not found a lightweight distro which is "easy" to install. Gentoo is great, because it can be uber-optimized, but it is also tough to install. Redhat and Mandrake are easy to install, but are very heavy.
I'd recommend checking out *BSD. FreeBSD 4.8 runs on pretty skimpy hardware. Throw something like fluxbox on there, and you are ready to go.

XFCE/*box

[Drakker]

I'd give XFCE and Blackbox/Openbox a try. They both run fine on a p200 here. I'm running debian/testing and it fits nicely on a 1-2gigs HD.

XFCE is probably better for kids as it uses icons, kids react better to nice looking icons than to text menus (*box). It's also possible to remove the configuration options from the XFCE panel so the kids can't tweak it by accident (or intentionnaly?). XFCE also minimizes applications to icons, which would be easier to use for kids (no taskbar here..).

Re:XFCE/*box

[g4dget]

XFCE is great in many ways. But its icons/drawer stuff is quite confusing to me: you right click on them, they open up, and they stay open, and you have to click on the little arrow to close it again.

I think XFCE with a simple Macintosh-like toolbar would be better, rather than the CDE clone that it is.

Try XFCE

[snoozerdss]

Try XFCE (www.xfce.org) It's a great light weight WM but is still easy on the eyes, very easy to customize, stable and fast. It's only a 4MB download as well.

FreeBSD + Windowmaker

[beholder77]

Easy to install, and runs great on these older machines. As well, maybe Abiword and Gnumeric. Kids might like to write, and do math homework and such.

If the box will be shipped with a pinter don't forget to portinstall APSFilter or magicfilter.

Web browsing will be quite bad on a box that small, but if it has enough memory (96-128m), Moz *will* work, and it provides email to boot.

Any games you can find that work on machines that small will be a big plus also. If the machine is a pure homework station, i

Debian + Blackbox/FVWM/OLVWM

[adelayde]

Sounds like a cool project, nice one!

Debian's a good bet as it installs with a very small footprint and you can work on a good custom build with just what you want. Once perfected, it's easy to get the packages list file of one machine and install packages on another from it. It's excellent for network installs and security updates, nice and stable, not cutting edge (which is good in this case), albeit a little more tricky to learn - but once you have, it, even dselect, is very easy to maintain.

Working in a community wireless project [psand.net], I've installed builds of it on old recycled Pentiums on I find that either Blackbox, or even the old FVWM or OpenLook (still very good window managers) are the ones to go for, stay away from KDE and GNOME, they're monstrously big in both disc space and RAM terms.

GNOME or KDE

[sporty]

GNOME or KDE on Redhat. Definitely. [/joke]

Yeah, I'll karma-burn for this one.

Lean desktop environments

[baka_boy]

I spend a fair amount of time working on a ThinkPad 560 (Pentium-120, 40MB RAM, 800 MB HD, 800x600x16bit LCD), and I have to say that most of the "standard" desktop environments (GNOME, KDE) choke a system like that.

Windowmaker is indeed a good choice for a basic window manager and launcher/task manager, but it doesn't provide a lot of the file management and drag-and-drop support that even kids expect from their computers these days.

I'd recommend ROX Filer (rox.sf.net), which does a good job of basic file management, image preview, etc.; XFCE might be an option, as well, esp. once they release their current development version.

Re:Lean desktop environments

[Glytch]

Windowmaker and ROX Filer make an awesome combination on older hardware. I suppose I'm biased, though. I'm a resource conservation freak who uses that same combination on a 1.7GHz Athlon with half a gig of RAM. :)

Re:Lean desktop environments

[aeakett]

OK... time for me to bang my drum.

For a graphical browser... Opera! I realize that it isn't all that light on the RAM, but the sheer speed of the renderer makes up for it (in my case anyway). The Mrs. runs it on her P200 (under Win98), and she absolutly swears by it... says it makes her dial-up feel like broadband. So, there you have it... my 0.02. But really, give it a try, you don't really have anything to lose, and most people are quite surprised!

Knoppix or Redhat, and twm

[abulafia]

Seriously.

The OS should be simple and replacable. Knoppix is perfect for that.

twm is simplistic, minimalist, and doesn't require much in the way of learning.

Don't teach kids how to use a window manager, teach them whatever you want to teach them.

When they get annoyed with twm, they can move on to something else, and hopefully know enough to choose for themselves. (I know a few OS developers who swear by windows98 as a window manager, and that's cool. Myself, I like wmaker. Being able to choose is the point.)

Debian + WindowMaker

[_iris]

Debian is an excellent system for these circumstances. It is probably not as streamlined as Slackware, but what feels like a 5-10% decrease in speed is well worth trading for the ease of software installation and, more importantly, the massive amounts of compatibility work put into the apt system.

For a window manager, I would use WindowMaker. It is responsive and configurable. Up until 1999 I used it on my primary system, which was a 486 66mhz.

If the people recieving the computers already have a considerable amount of exposure to Windows, then fvwm2 might be a good choice.

Too bad BEOS is gone.

[macdaddy357]

It would have been perfect for that hardware. Linux is too much of a resource hog to run on such slow machines.

Needy kids, what they need...

[Rares Marian]

The computer is fast becoming the replacement of the TV. There's no shame in having a small monitor since the computer can do things where as the TV just sort of sits there.

Suggestion:
Create a KidsComp spec and software to build to it. Just giving a kid a computer is just as bad as sitting them in from of Looney Tunes.

Create a KidsTools spec so that kids can learn about computer technology not just play games. For Gaming, board games, consoles, and outdoor sports outshine the computer market, especially when we're talking about old machines.

Create a ParentsTech magazine so that parents don't start screaming when the kid opens up a web page at localhost, when they told Computers 4 Kids that under no circumstances would they get the machine if it had Internet access. And then of course the parents go out into the world trying to sue Localhost.com whom they believe is a division of Apache Inc. I can see it now, Dad: "Get them Indians off that computer now, missy."

Re:Needy kids, what they need...

[l0rd]

Bad iedea. If a kid wants to learn about computers himself he'll find a way. We have enough "hold my hand and tell me how this all works" people in this click and play generation as it is.

Aaaah, the good old days, when every pc came with DOS and qbasic.....Oh how I miss the peeking and poking.....

Droolproof window managers are not rocket science

[ArmorFiend]

... and that's why they're no droolproof window managers for Linux! Nobody seems interested in creating a n00b-oriented WM. I would define a n00b-oriented, droolproof WM thusly:

1. It is impossible for a user to ever have the window decorations off screen - thus the user will always be able to close, minimize, and resize the window.
   
2. It is absolutely, incredibly, in-yer-face clear which winndow has the key focus.
   
3. A "Log out" button that's obvious.
   
4. Solid as a rock.

Magnet-move, fancy animations, blah blah blah, are all worthless for a n00b-WM. I am looking for such a WM to use on computers for seniors. So far I've been using window maker, but it fails badly on counts 1, 2, and 3.

Re:Droolproof window managers are not rocket scien

[g4dget]

Some window managers have those as options and give you clear, in-your-face focus indications and decorations. IceWM, when set up properly, is probably pretty good for this.

Fast...

[finity]

I use Debian and IceWM. I'm told that these work great on slow computers, but even my old one wasn't as slow as the ones you're talking about. I can also recommend blackbox or windowmaker as window managers. Also, slackware is a great distro to run on old hardware, I know that from experience.
There are many good choices out there.

RULE

[himynameisbrak]

http://www.rule-project.org/ [rule-project.org]

Replacement installers that put the latest Red Hat distributions on older systems (~Pentium w/ 32MB RAM). It installs light-weight X-Server, called TinyX (formerly kdrive) and desktop.

See their software database for some applications with low resource requirements.

Modern Desktop Environments

[ralphclark]

It's not really a question of which distribution, as all distributions tend to include the same core packages and you don't have to install what you don't need or what you don't have sufficient disk space, RAM or CPU cycles for.

The problem with running modern distributions on modern hardware is that modern "integrated desktop enviroments" such as KDE and Gnome, and modern browsers such as Mozilla, are very heavy on features and eye candy, and all that tends to consume the resources listed above.

For example: I remember running the Fvwm2 window manager on a 2.0 kernel with Netscape 4, on an old 486DX2/66MHz with just 32MB EDO RAM - and it was pretty snappy. Introducing KDE version 1 slowed things down a bit, but a new machine with an AMD K6-II/233Mhz and 64MB SDRAM solved that problem.

However I'm now running KDE 3.1.1 and Mozilla 1.3 on a 2.4.20 kernel and even though this is on a Athlon Thunderbird/1.2GHz with 256MB SDRAM at 133MHz FSB, I'm having serious problems with memory management and UI response times. My older boxes which I use for file server duties (nothing more powerful than a Pentium/166MHz) are still fine though, even when I fire up one of the older window managers.

So my advice to you is, if you're hardware limited, to put together your own cut-down distro CD's based an any current distribution you like (Debian would probably be the best for this purpose with Slackware a close second) but leaving out the heavyweight desktop packages (those which come with an object framework and a bunch of background demons) and all the Kapplications and Gapplications that require them.

Does this suck? Yes, it does. You can blame the lazy programmers who don't give a damn about memory requirements or people with older hardware.

The good news is that you can still have all the server packages, all the nifty GNU command-line stuff, gvim, a good modern lightweight browser (Phoenix/Firebird?), all of Perl, a lightweight desktop like Fvwm2, xv for viewing images, a load of basic X and Motif apps...all the functionality is there, in fact all you are really missing is fancy motion video viewers and some worthless eye candy.

WindowMaker

[xyrw]

WM ran beautifully on my old P133 with 32MB RAM, and it is fairly configurable through a graphical utility.

It's a good compromise between usability and minimalism.

Slightly unusual recommendation: qvwm

[ThinkingGuy]

qvwm [qvwm.org] is a not-so-famous, lightweight, customizable window manager that is designed to emulate the look and feel on Microsoft Windows9x. Yes, many have problems like that, but I think it suits many situations, like:
- getting new computer users comfortable with a GUI similar to the one they're most likely to encounter in the real world
- maintaining a consistent desktop in a heterogeneous computing environment
I've been using qvwm for a couple of years now with no problems. Oh, and it's internationalized, t

Well, i ought not to do this...

[AlXtreme]

as i have something against plugging my own projects, but i believe the Morphix [morphix.org] Livecd's would be ideal. The LightGUI comes with Icewm and runs on 64mb systems, once installed it's LightSpeed baby :)

Then again, kids really love the Game iso. Show them Pingus 0.6 and you'll have a few hours extra on your hands (only problem is that they might commandeer your PC to play it on...)

Another option would be to grab a new shiny Xbroadcast minimodule, giving you the option of one XDMCP server and a network of Xclients. Easy administrating once the server has been set up, centralised logging in, and a X client can work on a Pentium 100 without breaking a sweat. Throw in Knoppix hardware detection and no need to install anything on the clients (livecd's people, pay attention) and you have a sure winner.

Yeah, i really need a life, but honestly, making your own liveCD's is nearly as addicting as nethack. Oooo, off for another iso...

Low Resource Suggestion

[digitaltraveller]

Most distributions have roughly the same footprint. Even if you compile your own kernel, deselect almost everything, take everything out of /etc/rc3.d (or equivalent) and do hdparm tweaks, etc.
I once tried to do something similiar on a '96 DX4-75mhz 16M ram Thinkpad. All I wanted was a graphical Linux environment. Windows 95 (one of the nicer builds) ran much smoother then even the leanest distro's of the time. The problem was X. It was/is a resource hog. I think your best bet is to try one of the things fl

XFce

[Door-opening Fascist]

I've used XFce [xfce.org] on everything from a 486 to a P-4. It'll be snappy no mattery where you run it. It's not too hard to get used to, and almost never crashes.

If you want even less resource consumption, go for VTWM [visi.com]. I've also used it on everything from a 486 to a P-4, and it's even faster than XFce, and not too much more difficult to figure out. We use it at the Earlham College CS department [earlham.edu] on our Red Hat Linux P-4 clients, and it really flies.

Opera...

[M1FCJ]

I browsed through the replies but couldn't spot any Opera suggestions...

Slackware 8 + Windowmaker + Opera... I have such a box for visitors right in front of me, Pentium 100 with 32MB, works like a dream.

RAM

[theflea]

Whatever you do, give your machines as much ram as you can get your hands on.

I have a 120mhz pentium machine with 128 megs of ram; It can run kde on redhat 7.3 (although very slowly). By comparison, I also have pentium II class machine with 48 megs of ram; Its hard drive will thrash continously under similar loads.

Everyone knows how doubling your ram will make a modern machine perform; I think the difference is greater when you use low-end hardware with modern software.

Is it legal?

[YE]

Ummm, isn't their some kind of international law for protecting children from intellectual torture? C'mon, it's 10-13, they need a PS2, not apt-get and bootloaders.

Re:Is it legal?

[ivan256]

C'mon, it's 10-13, they need a PS2, not apt-get and bootloaders.

As I fondly recall being 11 years old and learning 'C' from the manual of my then recently purchased Borland compiler while the Atari sat idle in the corner, I'm wondering: What are you talking about?

Debian + IceWM

[Rysc]

Debian for all the reasons other have mention--light, customizable, works well on older hardware, easy to do mass installs, etc.

IceWM is very light and fast, simple to configure, and looks a bit like Windows.

On this note, perhaps an old version of Libranet? They use IceWM by default, and the older versions are free. Something in the 1.x range with a desktop install would work.

XFce + Mandrake

[Stinking Pig]

Fair number of XFce recommendations, and it's fairly obvious why, so I'll spend more time talking about Mandrake: the urpmi tool makes finding and installing software dirt simple. Easier to use than Debian in my opinion. The msec tool and shorewall integration keeps the adventurous kiddies from borking security up too badly, and Mandrake has pretty good out-of-box support for weird hardware and multimedia.