Are Student Loans Burying Graduates? 121
DrHogie asks: "This is an interesting Op/Ed piece on student loans -- and how they bury the graduate in a load of insurmountable debt. As someone who is considering going back to college to finish his degree, are student loans (and the degree they get you) worth the debt load?" Update: 05/09 5:45 GMT by C :I apologize. The link in this story is bad, and I can't locate the original story on Yahoo. In the meantime, here's a replacement story in the same vein, and an article about student debt and how most college kids are having to work more to offset rising tuition costs. The original question is still valid, however. Is college getting to be too expensive for the average high school graduate?
ugh! (Score:2)
Re:ugh! (Score:4, Interesting)
I am spending about $40k total on my college ed. Even if I spend $100k, over 30 years, that's $10 every 3 years, or 3600 every year. About $200 a month.
Now, if you make $400 more a month just 'cause of the diploma, you already have $200 extra a month after paying off the loan (monthly). An extra $100k over the 30 years, assuming no raises.
That's IRA, pr0n, wedding, anything else money, and that's after those 30 years. Your investment continues after that too... until 60'ish.
Re:ugh! (Score:2)
Re:ugh! (Score:3, Interesting)
That's like getting a subscription to the gym and never going. You give your money and you come out behind.
Re:ugh! (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm sure a couple of fellows named Gates and Dell would have a different opinion.
Re:ugh! (Score:2)
Re:ugh! (Score:2)
Of course, most of these students ended up transferring into arts or engineering or something similar. I believe as many as 60% of all first year students at my post-secondary [ualberta.ca]
Re:ugh! (Score:1)
Let me guess. You are a math major.
Re:ugh! (Score:2)
Great Sig (Score:1)
Viva Le France. How quickly so many disrespect the country that helped us win our freedom. So sad how closely our country now resembles that which we revolted against. Perhaps they should watch The Patriot and Braveheart soon. Hope you won't mind if I quote your signature in conversation. In return, I offer this:
Freedom Fries? More like Fascism Fries.
Re:Great Sig (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ugh! (Score:2)
Re:ugh! (Score:2)
Nah... I'm still alive... (Score:4, Insightful)
More seriously, student loans are not that bad, infact are a decent investment. For a lot of jobs a diploma really looks good, so you should be able to demand more, especially when just out of school since you need that better pay to pay off college. Also, you do not necessarily need to go to a huge named school to get a decent education. If you start with a local CC for your first year or so to get the gen-ends out of the way then go to a "real" state school you can get a decent education at a reasonable price. All said an done, I probably spent less on college then I make in 8 months. While that may seem like a lot, school loans tend to have lower interest rates and payment is deferred upto six months after you get out.
It doesn't need to cost a lot (Score:2)
Unless you want the prestige of a well known university (reads: I failed 2nd year of a prestigous university, if only I had studied C.S. - my real passion - instead of Electronics) UK readers could take a degree course with the Open University [open.ac.uk], you can get a degree in 3 years at 28 hours per week at a cost of less than £1000 per year, books included.
Thats what I'm doing now, except spread over 6 years to fit around my career and family life, currently in my penultimate year.
Sam
Re:Nah... I'm still alive... (Score:1)
When the compiler starts complaining about my spelling I'll start caring.
9 out of 10 trolls agree, when you cannot be bothered to reply to content, pick out spelling.
Compiler (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Compiler (Score:1)
no it isn't. (Score:3, Informative)
Anyhow, yes, it's very expensive to get a good education these days; I was lucky in that I went to an in-state public school, but still ended up with $20k of loans. And for what? Bad job prospects.
I feel for anyone graduating into today's bleak economy, I really do. We private citizens can't just perpetually borrow money like our governments do...
Re:no it isn't. (Score:1)
Re:no it isn't. (Score:2)
you wont get a student loan to go to college? how about a loan to buy a house? a car? a student loan is the best loan available.
for four years of college to get me a computer science degree i am going to pay roughly 12,000 dollars. even if i went to a nice college in my state i am sti
Re:no it isn't. (Score:2)
The keywords are need blind admission, need based aid.
On an average, MIT financial aid packages are over 20kusd/year. Parental contribution is determined by their ability to pay out of actual income (not by their ability to take debt). If your parents are totally poor you will get full financial aid. Nothing to do with academic performance, etc.
Yes, in general you'll accumulate something like 4000usd/year debt and your parents are not really
Re:no it isn't. (Score:1)
Wowsers (Score:2)
I am guessing medical bills for a family member, a lawsuit that went horribly wrong, or something. Given that you are totally anonymous here (new user id, no post history, no email address) you mind sharing with us (me) what that was, if for no other reason than to insure that we (I) don't have the same thing happen?
Re:Wowsers (Score:1)
As for how much they're pulling in, it's roughly half of
Leave it alone (Score:5, Insightful)
work while in school (Score:4, Interesting)
School doesn't need to be paid for all at once. Pay for each semester as you earn the money. Do a work study so that you are learning on the job and making money to pay for your next semester.
Re:work while in school (Score:1)
Here in the Netherlands you can do a dual study, where you work for a company (more or less full time) and do some school work too.
The first two years I spent studying like everybody else, and now im working 32 hours a week (40 soon)
Though the costs of college are a lot lower here (total will ammount to about 10K for 4 years)
Re:work while in school (Score:2)
My Student Loans (Score:4, Informative)
Re:My Student Loans (Score:1)
Re:My Student Loans (Score:2)
Get into co-op/internship (Score:2)
Re:Get into co-op/internship (Score:2)
oh yeah (Score:2)
Think it's worth it, now?
Re:oh yeah (Score:1)
Indeed. McD's is getting real picky these days.
Seriously though, if short-term money is the issue, then perhaps save the 50 grand for sheer survival. Things are nasty in the IT career world right now.
It depends on your future salary potential. (Score:4, Informative)
For example, if you are planning on getting a degree, and similar people with that degree are offered a median starting salary of US$45000, then you might be able to tolerate a significant debt load after you graduate because your debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of your monthly income.
If, however, your likely starting salary is US$20000, that same debt load might not be such a good plan because it is going to be a significant fraction of your monthly income.
As noted by other posters, an education can be a good investment, provided you will ever have the means to pay off your debt, and you make the most of you time in school so that you actually learn something.
Re:It depends on your future salary potential. (Score:3, Interesting)
Debt is bad, m'kay? (Score:2)
Re:Debt is bad, m'kay? (Score:1, Funny)
Its people like you that allow me to get away with borrowing $X from the bank to buy a house, and rent it out for $(X+Y).
So while you wait and wait to buy your house with cash, I'll have multiple houses paid for! Being in debt really sucks!!
Going BACK to college? (Score:2, Informative)
Of course, they do this because it benefits them when you bring your enhanced knowledge and skills to the job.
Worth every penny in interest. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll be paying $80 a month for the next 30 years, but I wouldn't have my current (great) job if I didn't have a degree, so in the long run, there's no question. Student loans are a wonderful thing.
Re:Worth every penny in interest. (Score:2)
80$ a month for 30 years? Insightful? We need a "Sad" moderation....
Re:Worth every penny in interest. (Score:2)
It would probably be wise for you to bump that payment up several notches and pay the loan off early (but pay off your higher interest loans first).
You'll save thousands of dollars in interest, and it will save you some sanity if you ever decide to get a home loan.
And save money, now.
Re:Worth every penny in interest. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Worth every penny in interest. (Score:1)
Criminally easy ways to not screw yourself financially:
- Never carry a credit card debt unless there's a good reason (and a bitchin' stereo isn't a good reason), and if you have to pay it off ASAP. Treat you CC as cash. Only put on it what you can pay off at the end of the month.
- Put money into a savings account every month (direct deposit is your friend), even if it's a minor amount.
- Only buy cars / homes that you can afford. Sure, a Lexus may be nice, but a Honda will get the job done for m
Re:Worth every penny in interest. (Score:2)
The interest rate is so low on these loans that my money is better off elsewhere (and I already have a house). Plus, I was overestimating a little on the length of the loan. I had to go back and check but it's 20, not 30.
Not all debt is bad debt. When you can borrow money at or just above the prime rate (+0.5% above in this case) it's better to keep paying th
Re:Worth every penny in interest. (Score:2)
This is a really important point. My credit cards, which have a far lower balance, cause me much more trouble on a month to month basis than do my student loans, all because of the interest.
Even better, for subsidized federal loans, the feds pay the interest while you're in school at least half time.
Also of benefit -- if you're a bit late on your payments, the DOE doesn't automatically report you to the credit bureaus.
No they are not. (Score:2)
Re:No they are not. (Score:2)
>price of real estate in most areas.
That is precisely what keeps me from going to school full time. Remember that the student loan must pay for housing.
Re:No they are not. (Score:2)
You tell me (Score:5, Informative)
From the 2002 Statistical Abstract of the US [census.gov] (warning - this is a PDF):
Median Annual Income by Educational Degree (No 664)
Overall - $32,092
High School Graduate - $27,669
Some college, no degree - $33,035
Bachelor's degree - $49,180
Master's degree - $59,376
Professional degree - $81,606
Doctoral degree - $71,732
Obviously, the answer to your question depends on how much debt you're carrying. But education does pay off.
The wealth numbers (which I don't have on me) are even more striking. The vast majority of Americans are in debt. If you have a college degree or above, you can begin to break even (especially if you own your house and are middle-aged or older). Those with Master's degrees have the most wealth, followed by those with Doctoral degrees. (Master's does better than doctorate, I suspect, because of all the MBAs.)
Re:You tell me (Score:2)
Re:You tell me (Score:1, Informative)
oh and these numbers are GROSS... (ie before uncle SAM rips^h^h^h^h gets his share)
Re:You tell me (Score:2)
The numbers provided above are medians rather than means which helps to minimize the effect of extreme values. But you're correct in that you can't compare your individual salary to these numbers -- you need to correct for local cost of living.
Subtract Taxes from that Salary (Score:1)
Subtract taxes from that Salary. Add student loan interest, plus that fact that those Doctorial degree's mostlikely came with $100k of loans and you're looking at a life of pain and suffering. $71,000 is not a lot of money when you take into account cost of living and interest of $100,000 student loan.
Yes, an education pays. Does it pay enough? Not nearly. I think there will be a huge backlash in the coming future as people realize that a lifetime of debt is not worth the resulting salary. Schools ri
Outrageous tuitions to blame (Score:3, Insightful)
Interesting link:
http://www.acenet.edu/washington/college_c
Re:Outrageous tuitions to blame (Score:2)
"It" is trying to return to the time when a college education was considered a privilege afforded to the more wealthy and the most exceptionally motivated of the non-wealthy. "We" insist on treating it as an entitlement.
Re:Outrageous tuitions to blame (Score:2)
My alma mater [uky.edu] is bound and determined to set enrollment records every year, but the morons don't realize that the tuition paid is chump change compared to grants, fellowships, patents, and gov't contracts that come from cranking out a well educated student body, as opposed to ever larger (and dumber) classes.
I'm all for switching to a European style system where getting accepted to a college or university is merit based with very high performance requirements for entry.
Grad school a goood bet... (Score:5, Informative)
If you're a programmer wanting a productive way to ride out the recession in school and you've already got a bachelor's degree, consider going to grad school in CS, mathematics, EE, or any of the 'hard' or even soft sciences. (particularly if you're female [slashdot.org])
Why? First of all, it's a great way to develop all those great ideas you weren't "allowed" to when working in a closely managed and directed "role" with the concommittant "responsibilities." Second of all, here's a little secret: in grad school in the US, they pay YOU , not the other way around. Low wages, but beats workin'! Third of all, your entering, say, CS with a psyche background, or math with a bio background, or physics with an engineering background is not only possible at the best schools, but positively encouraged. It's not "off topic" or "irrelevant" background, it's cross-disciplinary .
A few years work experience-- or even more than a few years--particularly in any area of computer support, installation, management, programming, are all viewed very positively by selection committees (I know, I've sat on them). Why is this? Well, for one thing, they can get certain kinds of specialist work done around the department for about a third of the commercial rate. For another, you're going to appreciate the chance to work on your own projects far more actively than a kid fresh out of college who's maybe done one or two closely supervised "independent" projects. You know how to organise and present your work. You can make decisions for yourself. You don't necessarily believe everything the professor says. This is called critical thinking and it's positively discouraged in high school, can get you labelled as a troublemaker at work, is encouraged in some university classes, discouraged in others -- but in graduate school and beyond in academics it is absolutely essential .
Furthermore, hving been in the "real world" you know the real economic advantages of developing and owning your own Intellectual Property-- as distinct from developing IP for someone else. You can develop all sorts of ideas into almost marketable products in graduate school--prototypes--and create the opportunity for yourself to develop it further when you get out. It's much, much easier to get invesment with that Ph.D. after your name, and the prototype you and only you developed in your pocket .
For those of you who quit to go to work for awhile say, half way through your undergraduate degree, you might as well take a few courses at a time while still working, at the local state or community college to get back into it. Cheaper, and it gives you more flexibility in which course of study you choose to get your undergraduate degree in, because the competition at those institutions is just not as stiff. If your heart is in the field you're switching to, believe me, you will ace these courses, and be able to transfer into a "real" school -- with scholarships . The other advantage of taking a few classes is that it will eat into your savings enough that these won't literally count against you when it comes time for the real school to calculate your financial aid package. If you've switched to working-part-time while taking your classes, all the better.
Basically, there are a number of winning strategies for finishing degrees and even changing fields in the process that don't involve taking out huge loans and going for broke. What you need to do is take up the discussion with the financial aid officer and some of the faculty you are interested in working with at your "dream" school, your "safety" school and your "University Near Mom" school where you can take a few courses(that's what we used to call UNM, which is a very good school for a very reasonable price BTW).
These people are experts in helping people
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:2)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:2)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:1)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:1)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:2)
The only hard part for me is gonna be deciding on what I wanna do for a thesis. I was told by a professor (almost exact words) "If you can't decide then you're not ready." But what he didn't real
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:1)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:1)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:1)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:1)
Re:Grad school a goood bet... (Score:4, Insightful)
Grad school does not pay you. At least, not reliably. (Disclaimer: All of the following claims are about the humanities)
Also, most schools most certainly do offer subsidized, inexpensive housing to grad students. You're not entirely on your own. Living in cheap housing is a part of grad student life, and you're actually better off sharing a big old house with a bunch of fellow grad students than trying to live like a dot-com himbo in limbo the rest of your life. Living in cooperative housing is part of the grad school experience--and it's the greatest source of the intellectual stimulation you're in grad school for in the first place.
You'll have to get creative to find cheap entertainment, too, by the way. We had a neverending game of bridge running in the living room, which had modified "Tenement" rules. Anybody who had to go to class could pass on their hand to someone else, shouting which suit was currently trump as they ran out the door. In Tenement Bridge (not to be confused with Tournament Bridge, which is also a good way to make money) it was valid to end a really bad hand by saying "Who dealt this river of s**t" which, if the other players reiterated this code phrase, it was a reasonable point to break out into a "card fight" --google on "Ricky Lee" and "Cards as Weapons" for more info :)
Then there was "Mad Max Wednesday." The local movie theatre had a dollar off for the first show of the day, another dollar off on Wednesdays, and another dollar off for students. Movies were five bucks in those days, so we'd get everybody together to skive off early on Wednesdays to see a movie if there was something good on--for two bucks a head. The first one we saw was "Mad Max--Beyond The Thunderdome" which is how the practice came to be called "Mad Max Wednesday" or, conflating it with another contemporary movie, "A Mad Max Afternoon."
On the topic of funding, some of my fellow grad students in mathematics used to play tournament bridge and backgammon in the local bridge and backgammon parlors for money, two used to take alternate semesters off to work as traders at the Chicago Board of Trade. Another worked as an actuary alternate semesters, in a cooperative arrangement.
But be prepared to live on beans and rice for a few years. Dried beans cost next to nothing, onions and carrots are cheap, and do go to the farmers markets. Some indian shops and co-ops sell nuts and oats in bulk very cheaply. And you can't imagine how good a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with a big cold glass of milk can taste sometimes. You can also find out when and where various receptions are being held on campus, and, well, dress nicely and eat up, it's expected! Do attend the seminar, too, though--you pick up a lot of interesting notions. This is called "participating in the life of the mind," and this, too, is expected.
Sure, it hurts your wallet in the short run... as does any good investment . Plus, it's a fun way of life--I did it for nearly 20 years, counting undergrad, MSc, a 2-year stint as a unix sysadmin in one of the departments, then as a grad student again to get my Ph.D., and then several years of research on postdoctoral grants and fellowships in North America, Australasia and Europe. Wouldn't have missed it for the world. Plus, your alumni associations and your associations with alumni are an ongoing source of interesting correspondences and friendships for the rest of your life. As an alum, also, you have substantial influence in changing some things on campus for the rest of your life.
All in all, the plusses outweigh the minuses, but it's not a purely financial calculation.
Alternative article (Score:1)
Since the one posted doesn't work, how about this one: (if you don't mind the pop-ups)
Student loans come back to haunt single mom [signonsandiego.com].Re:Alternative article (Score:2)
Holy SHIT!
Me, I think that most of the kids in college and uni today shouldn't be there. What we need are apprenticeships and tradespeople to be recognized as legitimate.
Worth Every Penny (Score:3, Interesting)
Tha debt loan can eat up a decent amount of your income when you first graduate. But, I think it is more important to look at it as an investment. If you can raise your earning potential from $6/hour (12,000 a year) to $15 (31,200) you are seeing over a 100% increse in your investment (yourself) in the first year alone.
Take that over your entire lifetime and see that they will end up giving you more than they take away.
Investment vs. Expense (Score:2)
If you go to school, and use the degree gained therein to get a better job than you might have otherwise, it's an investment. If you go to school and get a degree but are unable to find work in your field and end up in desktop and network support [innocent whistle], your education wasn't an in
Student loans are not the problem (Score:2, Insightful)
Student loans are not the real heart of the problem with education debt. Yes, they open opportunities to pay for an education one might otherwise be unable to afford. But the fact so many people need loans to go to those colleges is indicative of the need for better government support in education. In some countries, such as the United Kingdom, as well as in states like California, education is surprisingly inexpensive because it is subsidised for local residents.
In America this would be a controversi
Funny you should ask... (Score:3, Insightful)
Here a few of the things I did to make that happen:
1. Went to a state school in my home town and lived at home most of the time. Saved a ton of money there.
2. Freelanced and made some decent money (while learning my trade!!!!!) instead of a burger-fliping job...
3. Co-oped three semesters, and used the money from this to buy for a good chunck of school.
4. Didn't abuse credit cards or live a crazy lifestyle (beer adds up, first from the wallet, then to the belly)
5. And lastly, in the spirit of full disclosure, my dad help me a little the first few years, take advantage of every oppurtunity you get...
Yeah, I know sounds like my college years sucked, but they didn't really. I didn't need dorms to find friends, and I traveled a lot with money i saved over the years. For those of you about to say that most state schools suck. I agree, ALL school suck if you attitude is that you are going there to sit in class and be pumped full of info. I learned so little IN class, but out of class, I learned a ton, special projects, starting a business, independant studies, etc...
There is just about no better feeling to be had with your clothes on that having your car and dipolma paid off.
Now bring on that 30 year mortgage!!!!
In the UK... (which is not as Soviet as it should (Score:2)
This is fairly typical for MEng students, and is a big burden when they start their careers on about £20k~ ($30k~).
Recently however there has been lots of talk about making students pay tuition as well, adding around £20,000 to that figure
Re:In the UK... (which is not as Soviet as it shou (Score:2)
Two words for you: Media Studies
WTF? What does this do for you? I totally agree with the comments on Engineering/Physics/Chemistry, but what good does "Media Studies" do to anyone?
Re:In the UK... (which is not as Soviet as it shou (Score:1)
Gives you three years to smoke pot?
Perhaps they should charge media studies, artists and pol/sci people double to subsidise engineers, mathematicians and the like
College? (Score:5, Interesting)
My wife and I have had quite different lives. She came from a family where the mother didn't give a shit about educating her four daughters, but managed to get her son interested in commmunity college (an old-school Mormon mentality, where her daughers were to be perfect wives/baby-makers and nothing else). She dropped out of HS, got knocked up (before she met me), got a GED for herself, and has worked shit jobs ever since. I came from a middle class family that paid for 5.5 years at a decent state college, but I never finished. I'm a sysadmin. Sometimes she gets irritated that I can gross $25/hr sitting at a desk at a job that I love while she (when she decides to work) usually busts her ass for (at best) $10/hr.
The quicker route would be to take that $40k for college (if you have the savings) and simply jump to the final step above (own real property with no consumer debt). But the 4 years of living poor will really make one appreciate the value of money.
You might think that both of us would be huge supporters of the college degree thing. Oddly enough, we're not. We've both filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy at different points in our lives. She did mostly due to hard times (single mother anyone?). I did because I was a dumb-ass who racked up unsecured debt and then lost his job.
Once we both we jarred out of consumerism, we became much more accutely aware of just how well-off most people could do with modest income. The problem is that most people choose not to. They piss away countless money on eating out, cable/sattelite TV, new cars, homes in the 'burbs, and countless other crap. It's sad, really.
But it doesn't matter what demographic people are in, they'll waste money just the same. There are just as many DirecTV dishes in poorer neighborhoods as there are in your typical middle-class 'burb.
Ever hear a parent advise their kids: "When you graduate, I'll buy you a reliable used car. I want you to find yourself a cheap place to live. Share a house or apartment with 2-3 other kids your age (in a college town), or find a cheap efficiency, whatever it takes. Then find the best-paying job you can find right now. I don't care if it's labor shift work at a factory, waiting tables (decent money for the work), or whatever. If the pay-to-rent ratio is too low, I'll relocate you. You're young, you have your health, and you have no family and/or kids to bog you down. Live like a pauper. Scrimp every spare penny you can for 4 years and put it somewhere where you can't touch it -- bonds, CDs, even a savings or money market account at your local credit union. I'll cover disasters for you (you break a leg or your car gives up the ghost), but you handle the rest. You may not believe it, but in 4 years you'll be far further along than 95% of your classmates who went to college. Many will have loans, and nearly all will have credit card debt. You'll have at good-sized wad of cold hard cash and you can use that to put down (or buy outright) a fixer-upper house or a piece of land to throw a trailer on. From there, if you're smart, you'll be on a very short road to financial freedom, and you won't owe anyone a dime (excepting property taxes)."
Of course you'd never hear that. Any parent who said that would be shunned as an evil parent. Note that I didn't say to kick the kids out the door and hope they have a good life. I think a life of financial freedom (note, not "idependantly wealthy") is better than any typical middle-class life that I know of.
Maybe slightly idealistic, but true freedom is possible for most everyone until they head down the road of consumerism and debt. The sad part is that most people want Shiny New Things (tm) instead.
Man, if I
This is a good piece of advice (Score:2)
The situtation might be different in the USA, but here, if you're just going to do a BA or BSc with no intention of a post-graduate or professional degree, then you're insane and probably wasting your time. It's not just the cost of tuition and the loans, but it's the oppo
No Roasting (Score:1)
You learned hard life lessons the hard way. That isn't what bothers me about your post.
College isn't for everyone, that isn't what bothers me about your post.
What you seem to have missed about college is a different freedom. Not a financial freedom, but freedom of the mind. The ability to think for yourself, discover what you enjoy, set up a plan to achieve that goal, and achieve it. If college fails to do this for kids, then the college failed them (Or the kid didn'
Re:College? (Score:2)
Re:College? (Score:2)
My thoughts (Score:3, Informative)
1) I'm a Brit. That means with my parents throwing in $400 a month, and working 40 hours a week in vacations, I'll only owe $18000 when I graduate.
2) I graduate in July
3) I'm looking for jobs right now
4) Job prospects in the computing field, for students and graduates, in the UK, are minimal to non-existant
5) Average UK graduate wage is $33k
6) Average UK wage is £36k
7) Above $30k gross earnings, we get taxed at 32%, with an additional 17.5% tax on everything (aside from food) we buy (effectively a 50% tak rate)
8) Above $50k gross earnings, we get taxed at 40%, with an additional 17.5% tax on everything we buy (effectivly a 60% tax rate)
9) The current government wants 50% of kids to go to university
10) Current government propaganda states that the average graduate earns $15,000 a year more then non-graduates ($8,000 paid straight back in taxes). Thats based on figures before the whole "cram everyone into increasingly underfunded universities" policy
11) Almost every computing job outside graduate training schemes requires 1, 2 or more years full time commercial experience. About half of them would like a degree, and a third of them say a degree is essential.
12) We can only take out $5000 a year loans (to cover rent + food), and some banks lend upto $4000 over the 3 year degree.
13) Many UK computer courses suck, teaching you 20 year old crap no companies have ever used (or certainly dont now).
Unless you have, or can afford to take, at least 1 years work experience (which is usually unpaid, as you have no experience *or* qualifications, and demand is very high), chances of finding a job better then flipping burgers is minimal. If you have contacts (real contacts, not people on IRC that claim to run a company in Vermont), you probably wont find one in the computing field. Not in the UK anyway.
Personally, I'm off to greece for the summer - my parents emmigrated from this shithole last year, and things are just getting worse. Thanks Tony!
My degree may help later in life, but it sure as hell doesnt help getting your foot in the door. If you got experience in the boom, then uni's probably worth it. Tighten the belt buckle, stop buying iPods and tivos, maybe sell your DVD collection, and it's probably a good thing. I had a friend that went straight to work at 18, for a year, then chose a local uni while still working there. As luck would have it, that uni is getting better and better (
Working vs. Loans (Score:2, Insightful)
lucky here (Score:2)
Anyways, grad school is a good thing, in the long-run. Gives you the potential to get higher-paying jobs, and will mean that you'll be over-qualified for almost everything. In grad-schoo
Student Loans, with scholarships (Score:2, Informative)
There is over 3 BILLION dollars of scholarship money out there (including those for refrigerator engineers, waitress's, women, everything-- dont tell me you cant get scholarships because you CANT write-- bull), if you try hard enough, work long enough,and prepare well enough, you can have half to all of your college tuition on scholarship money. Some great sites are www.scholarships.com and www.c
International Issues (Score:2)
In New Zealand, the fees aren't too bad and debt is manageable, but they found that the US and UK are the worst for squeezing the money out of students.
Move to Australia (Score:1)
BUT you say... I don't want to be an Australian.
OK it just costs you more to atend the university approx 15k per year and you have to pay it
Re:Move to Australia (Score:2)
However, I haven't really noticed a great deal of USA students at our unis - probably because I'm guessing their system is pretty decent as well.
avoid the plastic (Score:1, Insightful)
CEPR: Debt Explosion Among College Graduates (Score:2)
The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) has an excellent article on the debt explosion among college graduates. [cepr.net] I recommend it to anyone who would like something more substantial on the subject than the anecdotal evidence presented by
Here's a portion of the executive summary:
As usual, it depends (Score:2)
I have $10,923.47 (yes, I've got it down to the penny) in student loans that I have to pay off. I applied for an interest relief extension. My first payment is due in October.
My job will pay about $50k annually. So my loans about 1/5th of my annual salary. That is manageable.
However, I've incurred about $5k in credit card debt in the last 8 months that I didn't have
Re:As usual, it depends (Score:2)
Please note that for the average college/uni student in Canada, it was so bad that it was literally standard practice to rack up 50K+ in student debt, graduate, get a job, declare bankruptcy, and move on. After all the 7 year stigma from bankruptcy was often a shorter period than the debt repayments....
It was so prevalent that laws are being written to exempt student loans from bankruptcy payments....
College debt... (Score:1)
The othe
Re:College debt... (Score:2)
You may be wrong here. The basketball team for the KU brings in more than enough to pay for it's coaches and such. In fact there is a good chance that college makes pretty darn good money off KU basketball.