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Books Education Media

Open Source Text-Books in California? 32

Posted by Cliff from the getting-the-attention-of-those-in-power dept.
ebusinessmedia1 asks: "The California Open Source Textbook Project (COSTP) was created a few years ago in an attempt to help California's educational bureaucracy understand the value of open-sourced, K-12 textbook development, and we are an official collaborator with Creative Commons. COSTP could, within 6-8 years, save California up to $400M+ per year in K-12 textbook costs. (in addition to 100's-of-millions more saved in other states). We're looking for further ideas on how we might push this forward, promote it through something like the Connexions Project http://cnx.rice.edu/ at Rice University, work with enlightened for-profits on an open-source K-12 textbook model, get a test piloted, or somehow get the project bumped up a notch, funded, etc. Ideas anyone?"

"Our project has been lobbied/promoted to every level of government and education in California, from the Governor's office, and the legislature, on down. I hear 'this is a great idea' from many people in government, but not a single government agency or legislator (who agree the project has legs) - not even the California Teacher's Assn. - wants to promote it as an initiative in the legislature.

Nobody wants to upset the status quo, where commercial publishers - in a virtual oligopoly - create costly textbook products that have risen at three times the rate of inflation since 1992. It's not unusual for K-12 books to cost 2-3 times what books with similar content would cost in a trade (regular) bookstore."
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Open Source Text-Books in California? More

Open Source Text-Books in California?

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  • Publishing companies (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Alomex ( 148003 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @09:42PM (#6249715) Homepage
    It won't work. There are already cheaper alternatives out there which are not used thanks to the massive marketing efforts (some might call them bribes) from the publishing companies to have teachers adopt the latest, most expensive textbook out (as if elementary mathematics or chemistry were changing from year to year).

  • The problem with open source texts (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 19, 2003 @09:47PM (#6249757)
    Take a look at Everything2 or Wikipedia for examples of what is wrong with open source reference materials.

    Basically, the only information that gets entered is entered by interested parties. Therefore a topic like the Open Source movement get tons of information (both good and bad) and other things like photosynthesis get very little written about it.

    In reference to the point that texts are rising at 3x the rate of inflation, does that take into account the increase in expenses of the publisher? There are many people involved in making a text, from the author to editors to the unions that run the mills and presses. Just because the price of something is rising faster than inflation does not automatically suggest that there is a problem. It could also suggest an improvement in the quality of the final product.
    • Except there is no equivelnet rise in other books. Except perhaps technical manuals.
    • Are authors compensations rising unequally? How about editors? Are only textbook printers unions getting high salary increases and are presses that print textbooks more expensive? No.

      All these forces are constrained by competition in the real world but in the oligopoly/government world of textbooks it's spend city.

      As for people not writing what doesn't interest therm, there are two solutions. First, pay people. Basic mathematics may be boring but you could get very talented teachers in Romania, Poland, or
    • Take a look at Everything2 or Wikipedia for examples of what is wrong with open source reference materials.

      Basically, the only information that gets entered is entered by interested parties. Therefore a topic like the Open Source movement get tons of information (both good and bad) and other things like photosynthesis get very little written about it. Wikipedia has a very comprehensive article on photosynthesis.

    • As a teacher, I can state that, at least in my corner of academia, there is no significant increase in quality of texts. The most expensive texts are not larger, and do not contain any more information, intuition, learning aids, or other educational value than they had before. The only big change is that the formatting of the books is a lot prettier than it was years ago.

      As an example, I currently teach a class using the 11th edition of a textbook, which costs around $130. When I took this same class so
  • Here is my tip (I just graduated from the california school system k-12), burn them all down and let's start building modern schools.
  • It may work if there is the proper âoepushâ. My wifeâ(TM)s grandfather wrote college textbooks and childrenâ(TM)s books for a living and he made squat. Itâ(TM)s not the author who makes any money it is the publishers and the schools that see the majority of the profit. Also some of the âoeapprovedâ books chosen by the state areâ¦lacking in most information. I graduated from a California high school in â(TM)89, when I had a conversation with my wifeâ(TM)
    • The USS Arizona is only one of the ships that were sunk at Pearl Harbor. That there is now a tourist attraction above it does little for it as an historical ship.

      Now if your sister in law didn't know the significance of Pearl Harbor in regards to America entering WWII, then a case could be made against the educational system. Not knowing about one ship in the attack isn't that big a deal.
      • Sorry... My point was _she didn't even know about the U.S.S. Arizona, let alone other ships and reasons for the Japanese and U.S. getting embroiled in the war. The U.S.S Arizona is just the most remembered of the ships lost due to the monument. I also forgot to mention she graduated HS in 1999.

      • Re:Authors don't get squat. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by shaitand ( 626655 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @10:41PM (#6250124) Journal
        Perhaps, but I can give you a good example. I've yet to hear of a Grade School US History class that mentions that most of the people in the colonies during the revolutionary war were loyalists.

        They neglect to mention George Washington was a slave owner.

        That prior to entering politics, in his time as a lawyer, Abraham Lincoin was counsel in alot of cases relating to slavery and run away slaves... yet he never defended a slave.

        They don't even mention that the 16th amendment could not be ratified without the southern states, but was put into effect anyway. They don't mention the drastic changes in citizenship that came with it. It wasn't until this point that people were U.S. Citizens instead of citizens of their respective states. They also strongly imply the civil war was over slavery even though historical evidence does not indicate this...

        • I don't have any problem with this information being taught, but is it relevant and necessary to teach it to grade schoolers?

          Is it more important to know that the majority of people living in the colonies were loyal to the British crown or that the American War for Independence freed the colonists from British rule?

          Is it more important to know that GW was a slave owner or that he was a general in the War for Independence and the first President?

          Is it more important to know that AL was a lawyer or that he
          • "Is it more important to know that the majority of people living in the colonies were loyal to the British crown or that the American War for Independence freed the colonists from British rule?"

            Both are important, and it hardly takes significantly more effort. I believe the view of these things should not be scewed in favor of the victor. If what we teach is one sided, like neglecting to mention that the first act of our foundering fathers was to ignore the will of the people, they have a name for it. B

            • As I read this I found myself mostly in agreement until...

              but refraining from giving overall OPINION, and sticking with OVERALL fact

              You speak as if "facts" were some pure and knowable thing, freed from bias. I think this has been the thing that has most plagued the teaching of history, particularly US history, particularly at the primary and secondary levels. Because there are no facts devoid of bias, and even if we were able to boil the teaching of history down to "just the facts", we would be in a

        • They don't even mention that the 16th amendment could not be ratified without the southern states, but was put into effect anyway. They don't mention the drastic changes in citizenship that came with it. It wasn't until this point that people were U.S. Citizens instead of citizens of their respective states. They also strongly imply the civil war was over slavery even though historical evidence does not indicate this...

          I have the distinct impression that you, suh, ah a Sutheneh...;)

        • I took AP US History and had an excellent teacher. He covered all/most the points you mention, even if only in passing.

          You're WRONG about the Civil War not being over slavery. The primary reason for the Civil War was slavery. There were many other reasons, however. We covered those in class, too.

  • COSTP could, within 6-8 years, save California up to $400M


    This kind of talk about future savongs always makes my bullcrap meter go off the charts. Why is it taking 6-8 years? And in 9 years if it's still losing money what then?

    • I think the issue is introducing texts in a few grades at a time. So if you save $30M per year, per grade and you're doing two grades a year, at the end of 7 years you're saving $390M a year. Startup costs will eat into savings at the beginning and not needing to go on those fancy national textbook review sessions anymore will save a bit more at the end. It may be BS but you can't tell from the phase in period.

  • Good luck (Score:5, Insightful)

    by duffbeer703 ( 177751 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @11:20PM (#6250369)
    The publishing industry is deeply rooted in the corrupt educational beuracracy and is gaining ground, if anything.

    You'll notice in college classes today that large freshman English and Literature classes use something called the "Mercury Reader" which is a customized collection of stories that costs about $40. The publishers encourage instructors to swap out stories every year. (Killing the used book market)

    I taught a English 101 class a couple of years ago and was forced to use it. My students went and spent $40 for works that are in the public domain! They could have easily purchased four or five Dover Thrift Editions for $8-10, or bought used books for less.

  • I've brought this up with several teachers, and there are those teachers that need the structure that a textbook supplies. I've crunched the numbers in my school district, where it would be economically feasible to outfit all the students 6-12 with a laptop and pay some teachers to come in over the summer and create the coursework for the upcoming year. Not well received. This is too early... Maybe in 5 years, or with the production of a cheap ebook.

    For this to be successful, it needs to be patterned after

    • Volunteers come easy in certain subjects. Anybody wanting to break into the field would have an incentive to add to their resume 'textbook publisher' and for the really boring stuff that has no advocacy group (and you'll be surprised how many subjects do have them) you simply pay people from countries with good educational infrastructure but lousy economies and low pay. You can get textbook writers for a few hundred a month a worker for all the hard sciences. Pay by the math problem if you like and set it a

  • K12 reform is complex and mysterious (Score:3, Informative)

    by joelparker ( 586428 ) <joel@school.net> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @11:38PM (#6250533) Homepage
    Your project is admirable and challenging,
    affecting politicians and also publishers.

    I advised Sun Micro on California ed. projects
    and learned K12 reform is complex & mysterious.

    I learned that real power is seldom with the politicians,
    saving money is seldom sufficient motivation to change,
    and state departments and teachers are critical allies.

    Feel free to contact me if you need web hosting;
    I can give it for free to educational projects.

    Cheers, Joel - joel@school.net

  • Have you checked out the MIT OpenCourseWare [mit.edu]?

    Their strategy [mit.edu] seems well thought out and could be a model for other similar efforts. I seem to remember that it's going to cost them on the order of $100 million to achieve their goal of _all_ MIT course material online.

  • After spending years finding grammatical errors in the English books, statistical and chronological errors in the history books, and mathematical errors in the math books, can it get any worse?P

    Schools are a very deeply rooted in old school ways. It is going to take a long time, and a lot of baby steps to bring them to where people will be happy with them and also be effective. If open sourced books can bring some better quality and save some money, while opening schools up to the idea of a different way t

  • I'm involved with open-source textbooks myself [lightandmatter.com], so the general idea delights me, but I felt the web page lacked specific information. Who would write the texts? Who would pubish them on paper? I also don't understand why state legislation would be required. If open-source textbooks are better and cheaper, then AFAIK there's nothing in state law to prevent them from being adopted by schools. Or is the idea to write something into state law to give preference to open-source books?

    My own books are aimed at the

  • Problems like the graduation tests recently required for California high school seniors. The idea was that if you pass the test, you graduate with a diploma. If you don't pass the test, you get a certificate that basically says that you were there for all your classes.

    It was a good idea. It would help to hold students responsible for their own grades, and make a diploma mean something -- not that you were just passes because you play water polo, or because the teacher didn't want to deal with you again.

    We
  • Have you all heard about a website called donorschoose.org? It's a website where teachers can list there educational needs (ex. a certain book) and if a donor is interested in donating then they click on the teacher they want and donate. How wonderful is that!!!

  • Thanks for the comments so far - and some answers (Score:4, Informative)

    by ebusinessmedia1 ( 561777 ) * on Friday June 20, 2003 @04:03PM (#6257123)
    Thanks for your considered, and thoughtful responses

    Currently, California creates a 'framework' for every K-12 topic (or general area, like language development). Commercial publishers then take those frameworks and build content around them. Open source authors could do the same thing. If the state employed those authors, or contracted them, so much the better.

    The final step for text approval is through the State Board of Education text selection committee. Books that pass muster are then permitted for adoption by districts.

    Open source textbooks would *have* to honor the framework documents to get through peer approval within the state board - that's a given. Thus, all materials have to meet a framework requirement. However, that's what the publishers currently have to do anyway. There's no reason the State itself, by adding some curriculum experts/outside contractors to do the appropriate filtering and writing, could not publish its own K-12 books.

    I spent 15 years in the textbook publishing industry; thus, I can speak with some authority on this issue.

    The economics of open source textbook publishing are a 'no brainer'. We're looking at the State self-publishing, and then reverse licensing content. There are *immediate* savings (this is easily shown) on the front end (marketing, rotalty and inventory costs), and licensing revenue on the back end.

    Almost half the price of a K-12 book comes from marketing costs, royalties, and inefficient warehousing.

    Further savings are realized down the road - say 10 years - when portable devices in the classroom are ubiquitous. If states don't get control of content, can you imagine little Johnny or Jane streaming the Preamble of the Constitution and paying Prentice Hall a micropayment for the privilege? That's where we're heading if states don't get control of content in their respective educational envronments.

    As for the increased costs of textbooks, there's no reason this should be happening. Publishers manage to keep the cost of trade books down...why not textbooks? It's a fact that some publishers offer *the very same* university level textbooks (also outrageously priced) overseas, printed on cheaper paper, for a fraction of the going price in North America).

    Open source textbook publishing is not rocket science, or obscure, as a publishing model. It *will* happen, and it's only a metter of time.

    I will admit that this model may be just a tad ahead of where the market, or educational bureaucratic sensibilities, are at the moment.

    Consider what cost-plus licensing of this material (and the process) to other states would mean - i.e. *billions* of dollars saved, and put back into parts of our state educational systems that need it most.

    Another query had to do with why legislation would be required to start something liek this.

    California used to publish its own textbooks back in the 50's. They were pretty awful. The reason for this was that there was no distributed source of information, or people, that could work on books; they (the books) were penned by just one or two authors. That situation has changed. We now have the internet, digital media, etc., etc.. There is no excuse for not looking into this aggressively, publishing a single curricular area as a pilot, and taking it from there.

    The state legislated itself out of the publishing business in the early 50's, and gave the power to publish K-12 material to private enterprise. Thus, it would have to legislate itself back into the publishing 'business'.

    Again, thanks for all your considered comments. We will be adding more information and updates to our site as we progress; we're in this for the long haul, until it's a reality.

    Please feel free to write with ideas. We can be sourced from our web site. http://www.opensourcetext.org

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