Selling Software - Shareware, Piracy, and Profit? 105
qjereq asks: "A few months after being laid off from a large corporation early last year, I decided to create some image browsing software to sell on the web and, perhaps later, in stores. Unfortunately, besides competing with hundreds of other similar shareware and freeware products, I have found that the bulk of my product's downloads come from pirate web sites. I have tried unsuccessfully to make my software hack-proof. I have also looked into selling the product in-stores, but I have only heard bad things about this including the possibility of having to eat the cost of returned merchandise. I am running low on cash and am on the brink of giving up, but I know that the product is good. Do any Slashdot readers have any success stories about how they were able to make money by selling software? My product is currently sold as Shareware. Should I consider a combination of Freeware and a Full Version? Is it worth the hassle of trying to get onto store shelves? Help."
Have your considered... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Have your considered... (Score:1)
Re:Have your considered... (Score:1)
Not to be discouraging ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not to be discouraging ... (Score:2)
Re:Not to be discouraging ... (Score:2)
This is exactly my feeling on the matter, it's the pure truth and there's nothing flamebait-ish about it at all.
for starters... (Score:1)
hack proof (Score:5, Insightful)
If this is true, putting in ever more complex protection schemes will have no effect, other than to make the software an even more interesting target for the hackers.
Hmm.... sorry to sound cynical.
Re:hack proof (Score:1)
Re:hack proof (Score:4, Interesting)
Then, if a cracker posted it for bragging rights, people could laugh, removing that incentive.
finally! (Score:2)
2) ???
3) Profit
Finally, the missing step is found to be:
Ask /.!
um.. (Score:1)
Simple solution. No returns on opened packages. If it's unopened, then the store can just reselve it, up one for the invintory, and then sell it to someone else.
Besides, I don't know of ANY store that will accept returns on digial media.
Re:um.. (Score:1)
Barcode (Score:1)
Re:Barcode (Score:2, Informative)
"Price Protection" and returns explained (Score:1)
You convince a store to buy X copies at Y dollars apiece, with 1.5 - 1.6Y as the MSRP.
Then, someday, should you decide to discount the software, so that it costs, say Y - Z dollars for the store to buy, every store will expect you to send them Z dollars for each copy that remains unsold. This is called "Price Protection"
Additionally, eventually (like when the product is on the $5 rack and still not selling) the store will expect to return all remaining unsold copie
PKI (Score:2)
The
Re:PKI (Score:1)
As for uncrackable software, you have you looked at ELicence? I'm a fan of Out of the Park Baseball. Paid out my hard earned for it (well worth it), but have ONLY seen OOTP4 cracked in one place on the net, and OOTP5 has yet to be cracked at all. OOTP is pretty popular among baseball stat heads like myself, and ELicence's support is top notch.
Re:PKI (Score:2, Interesting)
The rest of that scheme can be bypassed very easily simply be running the installer through a debugger or ICE setup and/or running the final installation through the same.
The only way something like what you're suggesting would have a hope of working would be if the entire installation program and files w
Re:PKI (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:PKI (Score:1)
And no, I have nothing to do with the program, just a BIG fan (first util I install on any new PC I use).
And at the risk of being modded down, this 2 minute posting delay SUCKS!!! Totally relevant post and I have to sit here kicking my heels. Thanks Commander Jackass.
It's a good price... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's a good price... (Score:1)
Re:It's a good price... (Score:5, Interesting)
On a side note, what might help draw these people to your new site is your participation in other sites and usenet groups. If you know how to do this right, which I think of as being an active and useful member of the community (not spamming), you will get click throughs to your site (best with your website's URL in your sig). This is a fine line to tread and it does take time.
Re:It's a good price... (Score:3, Interesting)
This brings up bandwidth issues if portfolios are online but it might also bring up additional revenue possibilities if you're interested in providing services along with the program itself.
Re:It's a good price... (Score:1)
One thing that constantly pisses me off about windows/mac is everyone wants money for *ANY* little VB app they write.
The author needs to make it easier to pay for the software then to pirate it. But I think the real folly is this: Image viewers are mostly used by pornographers. Pornographers are already pirating porn off the usenet, what makes you think they're going to pay for software?
Freeware plus Full Version (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't waste time, effort, and resources trying to make your software "hack-proof", spend that time instead on making more reasons for someone in a store pick your box up off the shelf.
Re:Freeware plus Full Version (Score:2)
I agree, mostly. In fact I recently played with some shareware that I liked, wanted to continue using and appreciated - more than that I wanted to buy it as a way of helping them stay in business and continue to develop that line of software.
I went to register it and when I asked how much it was the email I got back said $300. Ouch. I liked it a lot, but times are tight right now and $300 might as well be $3,000 because neither fit
Re:Freeware plus Full Version (Score:2)
Good software or not, I think those guys need to re-evaluate their business plan. I can't imagine releasing something as shareware and charging $300 for registration, that's seriously absurd! Then again, I'm a Linux user, so maybe I'm just spoiled...
Re:Freeware plus Full Version (Score:2)
You should check it out.
Re:Freeware plus Full Version (Score:2)
That, and this guy is trying to break into a pretty saturated market. I use gqview on linux, and irfanview on windows.
Re:Freeware plus Full Version (Score:2)
I find that if a serial number is all that is needed and it is something I don't care too juch for, I will Warez it. If it becomes any harder to find then that I will buy it or stop using it.
An example of good shareware practice was the older Opera, 30 days u
Re:Freeware plus Full Version (Score:2)
don't rely on keys at least.. (Score:2)
instead have another version of the software available only for registered users, this alone would cut the amount of freeloading(instead of just trying to find the key he/she would have to find the whole software which is generally much harder than to just find a serialnumber/key). also you should make buying much easier than freeloading(evilpaypal&etc), if it's easier to find a serial and download it than to buy it m
Re:don't rely on keys at least.. (Score:1)
I like your last comment. I have thought about doing this.
Re:don't rely on keys at least.. (Score:1)
The only sure-fire way to do it is to make it personal, everytime someone buys a copy you embed their info into the program. That alone is worthless since you can binary edit it. But here's the sneaky part, you also put some ECC data in with the user data that is never touched by the program. When the program becomes pirated you can
Re:don't rely on keys at least.. (Score:2)
Then just buy two version of the programs, find the differences and just clear those bits. Voila.
Re:don't rely on keys at least.. (Score:1)
Secondly, if you read my post I said that the program should never touch the data and you would have to be a moron to publicisize that you have hidden ECC data in your program binary. Thus how would you know to buy two copies?
I think you've already answered your question (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, there you have it. Why should anyone buy your software? Is it unique in any way? Were you the first to get it to market? Does it satisfy a particular niche? Is your product of superior quality?
You're always going to have a certain level of piracy. You can see this as negative (lost sales) or positive (free marketing). Most people who pirate weren't going to pay for it in the first place. You have to hope they'll recommend it to someone who will. Software protection is an illusion that reduces sales.
I have a friend who wrote a fairly simple utility. He did it well and did it early. He sold it as shareware (no longer though) and was turing over $500K a year lat I heard. So it can be done.
Don't get your hopes up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Very little can de done against it. So the real question is how do other companies like say supermarkets get us to pay for their products. Yesterday on my way to the dentist I walked past the back of a supermarket and totally unprotected where stending several loafs of bread. I could have saved myself A. some money B. the time standing in the que. I did not take the loaf. Why the risk was not worth it for me.
With software however we feel that "stealing" it is not so much a problem when we consider it stealing at all. You think differently? Cute from a guy who calls his image browser software "abc" I am sure acdsee [acdsee.com] has something to say about this. Software is easily "stolen" and the risks are non-existent.
So the answer? Well look to a different way of doing business. Opera, you got their icon on your page, seems to be surviving despite the fact that it gives its full browser away for free. Oh yeah they got add banners. Even if you are to lazy to find a serial for it you probably filter out the ads at the proxy.
I don't think it is really possible to escape pirates anymore. The cracking has become so fast that games are out cracked before they are in stores. How is a little shop like you possibly going to compete. So go the way of some game companies. Don't bother. Quake without any protection nonetheless was a huge seller. It can be done. But try to stay away from overzealous copyprotection.
Why? Cause the only ones you hurt with all the stuff like serials and calling home functionality are the legitemate users. Not a single company so far has succeeded in keeping popular software out of the warez scene. Not microsoft, not acdsee and neither will you.
Concentrate instead on making the program superior to anyone elses. Then hope that enough people will simply buy it because they find "stealing" wrong to support you. Plenty of free software projects get funding without any obligation to contribute anything.
Remember there is no law wich says you got to be able to make a living. If this doesn't pay your bills then though. Get a J.O.B.
But the real question to you is. Did you pay for opera? Did you make a donation to Apache and all the other OSS software you are using? In short did you fully pay for all software you ever used? No then shut the fuck up. You steal we steal. If you did, then give yourselve a pat on the back, there will no doubt be a place for you in heaven, with just a little bit of hell for infringing on acdsee's trademark. :P
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you choose to support Apache, good for you. You're doing good work.
Kindly remember that theft is not piracy (piracy is copyright infringement), and that using software which is freely given away is not even piracy.
Cheers.
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:2)
For example I yet have to go into an office where I don't find a winzip way way way past the shareware version expire time. But that don't count according to even very large firms (teleco
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:2)
nowadays, since zip is built into winXP, it seems likely that use of winzip past the shareware period will decrease
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:2, Informative)
What about the Association for Shareware Professionals [asp-shareware.org]
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:2)
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:1)
No. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement, I believe FSF definition for piracy [gnu.org] is the most accurate.
Re:Don't get your hopes up. (Score:2, Informative)
I have purchased Opera, my development IDE, an image library, and many other software products (including MS Windows). (I have also sponsored Opera via banner ads.)
I have not donated to the Apache or JBoss projects since I haven't made enough money with which to do so, but I have their logos on my pages to give credit where credit is due.
You are very right about at least two things: Let the pirates have the software and try to
Forget about retail unless it's a labor of love (Score:2)
If you need the bread, work as a consultant. There's quite a bit of work available if you look in the right places.
If you want to get your stuff out to a grateful audience, find a specialized field to learn about then use the newsgroups to find out just what people want.
take a page from dopewars (Score:2)
Re:take a page from dopewars (Score:2)
I don't use Windows XP but I understand it has some kind of online registration process. How does Microsoft deal with those that don't have the ability to connect to their servers for registration?
Re:take a page from dopewars (Score:2)
MS provides a toll free number for you to call to activate your product if you don't have an internet connection. If you've ever been through one of those calls, you realize that MS actually requests more information about you from the phone call than with internet based activation. I bet they're using the sale of that extra information to help defray the cost of having an activation phone bank.
Re:take a page from dopewars (Score:1)
Then comes the host name and general info like memory, network card, etc that might be sent as part of the PC profile... example: they might know how many XP users use AMD chipsets vs Intel chipsets... How much memory people have on their PCs; what kind of video cards are out there; hard drive sizes etc...
Its true that the info might not be "Personally Id
Re:take a page from dopewars (Score:2)
Give Up On Hackproof: Focus on Software (Score:5, Insightful)
A freeware version is a good idea, as it will raise your visibility... If someone is so cheap that they would use a pirated version, you might convince them to become a customer by offering freeware, then enticing them with the full thing. Most of the copies of WinZip out there are the freeware version, but there are a heck of a lot more paid copies than if they didn't offer the free one.
A 15 day trial is too short. You are not just trying to show users the full value of your software, you are also trying to get them so used to using it that they are willing to shell out the cash to keep doing what they are doing. Most people have settled on 30 days, but 60 days wouldn't be out of the question.
I'd also charge more for the software, as price creates a perception of value: 25 - 35 dollars should be sufficient. At 15 dollars you are putting yourself in the realm of cheaply made, junky Visual Basic apps.
You've probably heard the following, but as an avid digital photographer I would find your software difficult to use. For one, you don't have an intuitive, on-screen way to navigate through folders. There is a reason every other piece of image software out there has this... it's much easier to manually search your image collection, which is why you have a browser in the first place. No real image collection is a flat folder.
The single-level Thumbnail filmstrip is also a cute analogy, but it makes it difficult to, once again, search your pictures. There should be some way to have multiple filmstrips to facilitate easier searching.
On one hand, whatever algorithms you are using to handle large file databases is solid... ABC took a 10,000 image file folder with only a 5 second pause on this P3 800. And now that you have a solid program, the last bit of polish required is what brings in most of the money.
On the other hand, as you mentioned you are competing with literally thousands of other products, such as ThumbsPlus [cerious.com], SuperJPG [midnightblue.com], ACDsee [acdsystems.com], and many others [softpile.com] which are all highly professional, tremendously polished, and mature products. Spidering websites is a good first step, but you need to differentiate yourself if you are going to see real success. Are you going to be the online viewer of choice, with auto-import from camera / auto-export to HTML via FTP features? Are you going to push yourself onto OEM machines as a simple, easy-to-use viewer for regular people?
And if you haven't read Steve Pavlina's excellent article [dexterity.com] on selling shareware, I strongly recommend you do so now.
Re:Give Up On Hackproof: Focus on Software (Score:1)
I haven't ever paid for a shareware product. Then I tried the demo for AdSubtract (cookie manager / ad blocker). It's demo is fully functional for 5 sites and frankly I only needed to cover 3 sites. Then I got an email from them say
Try creating something for which there is a need (Score:2)
In order to take something from scratch and play catchup in a market like that, you need to either significantly out-invest the other
Remove Their Hard Drive (Score:2, Troll)
Hey, as long as it's in your EULA, it's ok, right?
Re:Remove Their Hard Drive (Score:2)
Re:Remove Their Hard Drive (Score:3, Interesting)
Basically, you crossed a border, and if it detected a crack it threw you in prison but it looked like a normal part of the game and you would NEVER know this was copy protection.
Re:Remove Their Hard Drive (Score:2)
Very sweet answer to the problem.
Copy protection delayed effects (Score:1)
This sort of technique is definitely still in use. About two years ago there was a lengthy article on Gamasutra (since moved to the members-only area) from the folks that implemented the copy protection in "Spyro: Year of The Dragon".
Developers know that a game will be cracked soon after it comes out, sometimes within a few days; but also that most of the sales are going to occur right after release as well. So the goal is to hold off and confuse the crackers for at least long enough to get past the sal
Choice of product? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm a bit puzzled by how you expected to make money doing this.
Warez (Score:2)
Two Thoughts. (Score:1)
I buy shareware... (Score:4, Interesting)
Requirements for me to pay for shareware:
1) Best in class: I paid my $29 for iCab. Why would I do that when I can get it for free? Simple - iCab offers the best feature set for a web browser. I have yet to see any web browser that offers the filtering powers iCab offers in an easy-to-set-up manner.
2) Great software: I am currently shopping for an OS X IRC client. Right now I am using iRC which is good, but not great. It is shareware, but I am not going to pay for it since I can easily imagine a better client out there.
3) Annoying, but not obtrusive reminders: I paid for GraphicConverter for OS X because it has a simple "Click Here to Run the Program" dialog box when you start it off. it reminds me every time I used it without paying for it just how often I was using it.
4) Full feature, unlimited demo: At the same time, with GC, it offers all of its features for as long as you want to put up with the nag screen. Since I use a program for a couple of months before deciding if it is worth paying for, a timed demo never gets my money (it stops working before I get a chance to fully evaluate it in my day-to-day life). Not giving me the full features also prevents me from fully evaluating my need and, as a result, will never get me to pay for something.
5) Professional company/website: I paid for a shareware type of BBEdit, and paid for the MissingSync. The web sites for these companies offered a lot of help and support, and made me confident that I was not going to get ripped off. Since I hate PayPal, any shareware that only uses that form of payment will not get my money.
6) Unique and worth money: I paid for the MissingSync because I needed it to sync my Clie with OS X. It was the only software that would allow this (PalmDesktop now offers this built-in). If a piece of shareware competes with a freeware alternative, the shareware software had better be significantly better than the free alternatives.
7) Good upgrade policy: This is a big one. GraphicConverter and others allow free upgrades for a *very* long time once you pay. I am not going to hand over money for v2.1 of some software if I know I am going to have to pay for v3.0 in three months and then v3.5 three months after that. I would say that, in general, I am willing to pay for a paid upgrade every two years or so.
Re:I buy shareware... (Score:2)
Tweak Your Marketing (Score:2, Interesting)
Selling (Score:2)
I wouldn't worry too much about pirating. Remember that 99% of those who are using it without paying wouldn't use it if they had to pay.
I think the only way to make money out of shareware is to make it ubiquitous first, then extract the money. Really try aggressively to get it onto people's hard disks. Approaching magazines to put it on cover CDs (ideally reviewing it in the mag as well) seems the obvious way.
Once it's well known, then try to tie it up with registration codes or whatever. People a
Copy protection not the answer (Score:5, Informative)
Here's possibly one of the best sites on the net about the philosophy of designing shareware. Note that copy protection is not the answer!
http://semicolon.com/ShareSuccess/Shareware1.html [semicolon.com]
Basically, the author does triage. There are 3 types of people: those who will always pay, those who will never pay (pirates), and those who might pay. He focuses on trying to convince the latter group, and doesn't waste time with copy protection schemes that will just annoy the honest users and not stop the pirates.
What's wrong with copy protection:
http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html [toad.com]
Some typical attack methods:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/3030/co pyfail.htm
[geocities.com]
http://fravia.anticrack.de/advanced.htm [anticrack.de]
You might want to read all of these before deciding if your efforts on copy protection are really worth it in the long run.
http://semicolon.com/ShareSuccess/SharewareLinks.h tml [semicolon.com]
The author of the first link has a page of more links that are also very good.
Looks like a fairly generic product... (Score:2)
Maybe you should try and hook up with some smaller digicam or scanner manufacturers to bundle your software. I have no idea what kind of revenue ACDSee gets from each unit, but their software seems to be included with a lot of gear. High volume, probably low unit revenue, but definitely good for getting your name out the
Selling it to a distributer (Score:2)
You are going in the wrong direction... (Score:2)
But that's just me, if you want to go with the sharewaare model, stop worrying so much about piracy.
Your best off just making a token effort at preventing piracy. Piracy is the same for you as it is for microsoft, as it is for programs like winzip and all other software which
Hardware and OS requirements? (Score:2)
I had a look at the product's website. Something I thought was odd was that I couldn't find out what the hardware and OS requirements were. The page you linked to says (not very prominently) that it runs on Windows, but doesn't say which versions.
The people who are saying that you can't stop piracy are, I'm afraid, right. Your efforts would be better spent trying to get the more honest users to buy the product. In the days when I bought shareware (I mainly run Linux now), something that always encouraged m
Bad Marketing Decision (Score:3, Insightful)
If you had checked the market before starting, you would have saved yourself a lot of time ... a latecomer to a crowded market can't be "good", it has to be superb. The pirated copies aren't losing you any sales ... if you had made it absolutely hack-proof, the pirates would be distributing someone else's hacked software.
Cut your losses, consider it programming experience and start hunting up a job.
A friend does this... (Score:2)
first things first... (Score:1)
seriously, you should entertaining your potential customer, not scare them off.
Thanks (Score:1)
1. I picked the wrong type of program to attempt to sell.
2. Attempting to create hack-proof software is futile.
3. I should greatly differentiate my feature-set (i.e. more web-spider-type functionality), go open source, create a community, sell the product to an established company, o
Re:Thanks (Score:1)
Cliche time. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
While it is true no software can be hack-proof, that doesn't mean that a decent copy protection scheme shouldn't be implemented.
Scanner vendors? (Score:2)
When you said at stores I don't know what scale you meant, but a scanner vendor is probably no harder then a big store.
Programmers = MCDonalds (Score:2)
Use FlexLM (Score:1)
Its cumbersome and somewhat crackable but not widely distributed. Plus if it is cracked, you'll have Macrovision to fight the battle for you, and maybe to hold accountable. But it's probably way overpriced.
Well, good news and bad... (Score:2)
So what are you going to do? You have t
Fravia's site (protection) (Score:1)
From someone who's been there... (Score:2, Interesting)
What I did was to limit my evaluation version to a certain number of entries. It was enough that the user could see and use every single feature in the application, yet since th