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Data Storage Technology

Are DATs Still Worth Buying? 71

Posted by Cliff from the media-types-slated-for-extinction dept.
Anonymous Coward asks: "DATs are currently the standard for recording legal concerts like Phish and the Grateful Dead. However, they're absurdly expensive even on eBay and are no longer being developed actively by any companies. Are there any alternatives that are more cost effective than DATs (Sony has a D100 out for 700 USD) and maintain the same quality? (DATs can sample up to 48kHz)."
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Are DATs Still Worth Buying? More

Are DATs Still Worth Buying?

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  • Hmmm... (Score:4, Informative)

    by JAYOYAYOYAYO ( 700885 ) * on Friday September 05, 2003 @07:33PM (#6884244)
    If you absolutely MUST have 48kHz sampling rate then i don't know. If you're just going to be recording Phish and Greatful Dead concerts then all you need is a MiniDisc recorder. MD has pretty much taken over the DAT market.
    • I was under the impression that MD couldn't replace DAT for criticl uses because recordings tend to drift on MD. Has this been fixed? Or was this never a problem and I've just been misinformed all these years?

      • Re:Hmmm... (Score:1, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Neither. DAT is used in recording studios. I can bet you MD never is - and I have an MD player (though to be honest I have touched it since I got my iPod). There is a distinction in quality. On the other hand, if you're recording from the audience of a concert, I doubt that CD quality would do you that much good anyway - you're not getting the sound very cleanly to begin with.
        • ..DAT is used in recording studios. I can bet you MD never is..

          Well, Sony does make a multi-track Minidisc recorder, or at least used to (check out this page [minidisc.org]).

          Also, when I was working at a [student] radio station, we used to use minidiscs for all of our ads and promos. Of course we didn't need pro audio quality for broadcast, but they had some pretty nice machines back then, and this was in 1994 or 1995.
          • MD's for spots??? Why, in my day (about a decade before yours), we [wrpi.org] put all of our promos, program intros, etc. on carts, with an archival copy on 8" Ampex reel-to-reel, and we liked it!

            You young whippersnappers probably don't even know how to cue up an LP....

            Remainder of my .sig: be the majority of voters.
            • Funny enough, I was the GM for a college radio station and we had to teach people how to cue up LP's...

              Incidentally, we did all our promos and donuts on carts and reel to reel.

      • Re:Hmmm... (Score:3, Informative)

        by gilesjuk ( 604902 )
        DAT is uncompressed audio, MD is lossy compressed audio. Thus DAT is better for those who want every detail preserved.

        I would imagine a hard disk based device would be better suited to the job, DAT tapes can get a bit knackered causing clicks.

    • Re:Hmmm... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by BirksNCap ( 53917 )
      I'd only say to counter this that in my nearly 9 years of taping, i see only about 10% of the units being used to record concerts are minidisc. It's not a lossless recording mechanism, and still requires too much attention and "flips" [ swapping media ]. 48 kHz is the standard at which most 16 bit recording is done by competent tapers who care about the archival and continuing sonic value of the music which they are mastering.
      • I always DAT stuff at 44.1khz, since quite a few digital sound cards will automagically 'downsample' 48khz to 44.1khz. I can't tell the difference between 44.1 and 48khz. Maybe I'm not just competent :)

        Totally agree with you on the 'flips'. Anytime you have to open up a deck at a show, it's a bad, bad idea. I've had tape jams from trying to flip too fast, dropped a tape on the beer soaked floor, etc.. etc.. See above 'not competent' comment.

        • I always DAT stuff at 44.1khz, since quite a few digital sound cards will automagically 'downsample' 48khz to 44.1khz. I can't tell the difference between 44.1 and 48khz. Maybe I'm not just competent :)

          I find it quite comical that my soundcard MUST play 48KHz on ALSA to not be almost all static (Curse the VIA 8233)
      • God bless my DMB tapers.
    • minidisk has other problems, not like dat, but in some ways, worse (dat doesn't have a TOC; if you scramble the TOC on a MD, you're fscked for sure).

      MD was better in some ways. but its not bit-accurate, and really, for enthusiasts (regardless of the material), they want to know they got the whole show and in the highest quality. MD uses lossy compression, so even the initial capture isn't bit accurate, so to speak.

      what tapers want and need is a bit accurate, non-lossy compression, long-length recording
    • While I'm not sure of the market share of MiniDisc versus DAT, I can tell you that MiniDisc will not give you the same quality because it is a COMPRESSED MEDIUM. DAT stores raw data and therefore there is no compression artifacting. Now, if its quality you're after, I recommend a laptop with a good audio input (pronounced "external audio interface"). There are firewire and USB pro-grade interfaces starting at under $250. Many even support balanced XLR inputs and also supply phantom power. If you can ha

  • hmmm (Score:3, Funny)

    by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) on Friday September 05, 2003 @07:36PM (#6884260)
    Ask the RIAA, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help you out.
    • Actually... I believe that the RIAA gets a cut of all 'audio grade' blank DAT sales. If you buy the DDS grade DATs (which are cheaper and statistically have less errors) you avoid the cartel.

  • Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:5, Informative)

    by ksheff ( 2406 ) * on Friday September 05, 2003 @07:45PM (#6884315) Homepage

    I'll have to see if it can record at 48KHz, since I've only used it at 44.1KHz (CD sample rates). Since it stores at least 20G of data, uses USB or firewire, optical/line-in, dual replaceable batteries, etc., it is great for recording shows.

    Minidiscs are certainly cheaper, but they can only hold a little more than an hour and if they screw up during the 'finalization step', the recording is toast - I don't have one but I know of some people who have had this happen. Also for the non-compressed audio purists, it's a no-no since it employs a lossy data compression scheme to store the music on the disc.

    • I checked and for WAV recoding the sample rates are 11.025KHz, 22.05KHz, 44.1KHz, and 48.0KHz. For recording as MP3, the bit rates range from 64Kbps to 320Kbps. It also has an adjustable gain setting(+/- 12db). The product page for it is here [creative.com]

    • Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:2, Interesting)

      by ottothecow ( 600101 )
      I'll second that, it has very good inputs, and the dual rechargable bateries make it last long even with the disk writes. You can record up to 48KHz wav and 320kbps mp3 with up to 48dB boost. The onscreen display give you enough info to monitor and adjust the gain if needed without attatching some headphones to monitor for clipping. Overall I have used it to record a genetics confrence and the results turned out nicely using the output on an SPL meter as my mic. I have also used it wiht my cd player for
    • Jamie Lutch on the laptop-tapers group on yahoo groups has done extensive testnig of this unit, and it cannot support live recording due to dropped samples. It's not reliable enough for most tapers to be willing to not use DAT.

      • I've NEVER had a problem with mine and the other tapers that I know that have a NJB3, love them. The only one that had problems was an old-school DAT-head who screwed up his firmware upgrade. They are superior to the other widely used option: MiniDisc.

        I have no idea who this Lutch guy is, but IMHO, he's full of it.

        • Jamie Lutch knows what he's talking about re: dropped samples and bit-for-bit perfect. Amongst us truly anal audiophiles every transfer and every step of the recording process needs to be bit-for-bit perfect. This ensures that when we make lossless audio files from the recording we will get the best possible quality, in effect an exact copy of what we recorded. Us tapers have been looking into these kinds of things for years, and bit-for-bit perfect soundcards, or standalone recorders are not the norm. It's

          • Sorry. I still say he's full of it. Sure, the Nomad doesn't have the hardware to compensate for when the gain is set too high or when the input gets painfully loud unexpectedly. In that case, the audio will get clipped. With a little practice, that can be avoided. The device is still something that I can lock the UI, slip into a pocket, and enjoy the show. I don't want to bring damn near as much shit as the band does to a show, or worry about some drunk accidentally spill their beer on a laptop.

            Audio

            • I agree with you that the Nomad is a pretty damn good piece of recording equipment, and the end result is probably better than if you were to record a show on a laptop with an "inferior" soundcard, or just tape on a D8 and do a bad transfer to get it to your computer. Personally I'm not one of the anal audiophiles, but I do know what they're talking about and I trade with them. If it sounds good, then great. The more folks taping the better, whether they've just got MD and Oktavas or bit-for-bit perfect u89

          • Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:2, Informative)

            by ksheff ( 2406 ) *

            As, I expected, the 'dropped samples bit-for-bit perfect' issue was all about the initial crappy firmware. In this message [yahoo.com], your man Jamie claims it's bit-for-bit perfect and makes DAT obsolete. But a few days later, the problems crop back up again. All of which is very odd and runs counter to my experience and that of other people I know. It seems it's a love it or hate it device.

            • Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:2, Informative)

              by Read Icculus ( 606527 )
              At least he was correct about dropped samples and not being BFBP for the Nomad with the old firmware, which I guess was the last I read on the issue, (sorry for the mistake). I'm happy to read that the Nomad is now BFBP, although some of the posts about it being "picky about what is feeding it the digi signal" cause me some concern. Also the group seems to have a somewhat mixed opinion about whether or not the Nomad makes DATs obsolete. Being limited to Windows only, and the lack of 24-bit support currently
          • This ensures that when we make lossless audio files from the recording we will get the best possible quality, in effect an exact copy of what we recorded.

            And yet after all that careful equipment selection and use, you're still stuck with a Phish tape. It doesn't really seem fair, somehow.

            --saint
            (the chip-shouldered child of hippies.)

  • ..recording legal concerts... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You should thank you are not paying the prices as those of us attending those illegal concerts. Although illegal concerts are way cooler.

  • Harddisks (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 05, 2003 @08:18PM (#6884503)
    Harddisks are the cheapest way to store just about any kind of data these days. Alesis (alesis.com), Mackie (mackie.com), Tascam (tascam.com) and many others sell dedicated recorders that take removable harddisks. Unfortunately all the examples of these I know of are large multitrack rackmount beasts, which is maby not what you're looking for. I would try searching google for harddisk recorders though.

    Another option you might consider is using a notebook computer. M-Audio (midiman.com) and Digidesign (digidesign.com) both sell relatively small USB audio interfaces that are better than any laptopss built-in sound. Mark of the Unicorn (motu.com), Presonus (presonus.com) and Echo Audio (echoaudio.com) all sell bulkier-but-nice firewire and pcmcia interfaces.

    If you want something that you can carry around in your pocket then minidisc is probably the way to go.

    • Take a look at the Alesis MasterLink 9600 [alesis.com].

      It's a two-channel recorder (up to 24-bit/96kHz, but also has 88.2kHz to avoid aliasing when you eventually sample down to 44.1kHz). It has a built-in hard disk. It has SPDIF input and output.

      However, it lacks any high-speed digital I/O. SPDIF can only do 20-bit, and only at real time. The built-in CD burner is only 4x. The CD will burn ISO 9660 discs, though, so you can transfer off the full 24-bit 96 kHz files -- of course you'll chew through 700MB with f

  • Old-fashioned way (Score:3, Funny)

    by The Clockwork Troll ( 655321 ) on Friday September 05, 2003 @08:55PM (#6884683) Journal
    Hook up the sound engineer with the drug(s) of his/her choice, and get yourself a direct digital feed from the board. Don't be stupid, there is a protocol for doing this intelligently and I leave its details as an exercise to the Googler (hint: it does not involve approaching the sound engineer during the concert)

    Then use a Nomad or similar to capture the PCM.

  • is gaining popularity with the USB ADC/DACs. I'm quite happy with my UA-5.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/laptop-tapers/ [yahoo.com]

    MD is lossy and has no decent digital outs.

    The nomad is fairly popular, except for recurring reports of dropped samples. I haven't heard if it's been fixed.

  • awkward, but... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheSHAD0W ( 258774 ) on Friday September 05, 2003 @09:50PM (#6884927) Homepage
    To match the fidelity of a DAT recorder, you'd need a laptop and a USB audio adapter, and record the raw audio input (no compression). A palmtop with an auxiliary battery and Microdrive might work as well.
    • Are there USB audio adapters that record at 96 KHz? Because I'm used to higher sampling rates than 44 KHz with my Delta 66 (4 track USB card) but it's not portable by any means.

      44KHz is fine for recording sine waves up to maybe 16 KHz but not any high frequency signal with harmonic content.

      • Re:awkward, but... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by joto ( 134244 )
        Are there USB audio adapters that record at 96 KHz? Because I'm used to higher sampling rates than 44 KHz with my Delta 66 (4 track USB card) but it's not portable by any means.

        Yes. Most professional soundcards are recording at 96kHz or higher. Some of them are probably portable. Ask your local music store.

        Because I'm used to higher sampling rates than 44 KHz with my Delta 66 (4 track USB card) but it's not portable by any means.

        So, because you are "used to" higher sampling rates, you think you need

        • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday September 06, 2003 @12:30AM (#6885598)
          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • As for the difference between 24 and 16 -- concert stuff? Thats a hard choice...if you are just going to throw it on the internet...16 IS the right choice as Joto says. I would still argue 24 bit because it gives you far greater headroom to deal with before clipping. it could mean the difference between a bad take and one thats easily salvagable.

            That's a good point. With the unpredictable levels at a live recording situation, it is a good thing to have a few extra bits to discard later. I'm mostly used t

        • Re:awkward, but... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by bobbozzo ( 622815 )
          Yep, and the main reason most DAT drives only recorded at 48KHz was to prevent us from making digital copies of our CDs.

      • The ua-5 and similar units do 96khz/24bit/stereo half-duplex; you need something that speaks WDM or ASIO. I like wavelab for field recording, but it's a bit pricey.

        You have to power down and power up to change bitrates or input / output; but that helps to avoid hitting the wrong switch in the middle of a session. The pre-amps are actually fairly decent, and it has optical and coax digital I/O (it does reclock, but not too badly). It doesn't do digital passthrough for a backup recorder without mods; that wo
    • I've tried. usb audio (for input) is NOT reliable for bit-accurate audio captures.

      for output, it seems to be fine (I use it for very high quality spdif playback of .wav or .mp3).
      • followup: this device [ebay.com] is supposed to be fully bit-accurate. for the longest itme, it was wicked expensive (abvout $500). but at $200, its much more affordable.

        (ob. disc: no, I'm not that seller nor am I connected with him.)

        I've heard reports that you can stack 2 of them and get 4 channel recording, all digital. but there are sync issues that you later have to resolve (there is no common timing between a pair of cards like this. fyi).

  • What does that 4 khz get you? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Smack ( 977 ) on Friday September 05, 2003 @10:42PM (#6885141) Homepage
    Can you really hear the difference? Especially since live recordings generally suck anyway, even with good quality (i.e. $$$) mikes.
    • While the above is accurate, there is an exeption. Concert recordings can be stunning if you have board access. One merely taps the connection between the board output and the amps.

      good recordings can also be had with the MOTU and Mackie equipment pointed out above. I have used MOTU software and it is excellent.

      More important then the sampling rate are the mics. mics make all the difference. the omnis from radio shack don't cut it.
    • I take issue with the premise, especially with quality microphones, preamps, AD converters and recording gear. It also makes you independent of venue issues, so that when the power goes out or there's a dead channel in the board, you just keep rolling tape [ or hard drive ]. I was proud to record just such a show on June 8th 2003 of Bela Fleck & the Flecktones, available for free download in shorten format over at Archive.org's Audio site [archive.org]. please avail yourself of the chance to download a few of the tho

  • Neuros (Score:4, Informative)

    by Unknown Lamer ( 78415 ) <clinton@nOSPAm.unknownlamer.org> on Saturday September 06, 2003 @12:58AM (#6885709) Homepage Journal

    The Neuros [neurosaudio.com] with firmware 1.40 (I'm using 1.40A, which is 1.40 with the fully optimized Vorbis decoder which rocks because now I can listen to my 160kbps ABR Vorbis files without clicks over MyFi [in 1.40, they skipped to the point of being unlistenable over MyFi, but only skipped in really complicated sections of songs through the headphone out]...but I'm getting a bit off topic now). Anyway, support for recording to wav files was added in firmware 1.40, with the option of recording 8kHz/8-bit, or 44.1kHz/16-bit or 48kHz/16-bit. 48kHz/16-bit is DAT quality, and the Neuros has a line-in jack so you should be able to hook up most external mics to it (at least with a preamp because it doesn't have a +20dB signal boost; of course I assume that bootleggers don't use crappy unpowered mics that have a maximum signal level of -20 dB instead of 0 dB).

    The only problem with recording is that the unit's built in mic picks up a low pitched "hum," which I assume is electrical noise and the noise of the hard drive spinning when it needs to dump the recorded data from where it caches it (I'm not sure if it just caches in RAM or if it writes to the built in flash and then copies over the hd; I think it writes to flash because the hd only spun up once every ten minutes or so when I was recording for about an hour in 44.1kHz/16-bit mode).

    The recording stuff has a nice level stereo level meter but no editing tools (yet), so it isn't quite as nice to use as many recorders, but Digital Innovations seems to be responsive to user requests for features (Ogg Vorbis support, scheduled radio recording, equalization, etc.) so maybe there will be a few simple editing tools added eventually (I'm thinking stuff like being able to hit one of the present buttons to make a mark and then hitting the menu button to do something like delete everything between markers or normalize it, etc.). Still, it works great for just recording stuff and then copying it to a computer for editing.

    • Re: 20 dB boost. The Neuros does have this, but I didn't notice it. If you start to record, you can hit the control stick up to add a 20dB boost, and back down to go back to 0 dB boost.

  • Laptop! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tom7 ( 102298 ) on Saturday September 06, 2003 @02:06AM (#6885935) Homepage Journal
    Sure, a laptop with a 24-bit, 96-khz sound card.

    If you're doing field recordings, though, I somehow doubt that you need such fidelity. Then, portable MD recorders are pretty attractive...
    • One problem with MD based solutions isn't necessarily the lossy compression on the master you make (although some will not even tolerate this)
      What makes MD useless for this kind of activity is the inability to make a bit-for-bit copy of a MD, so you get generation loss every time you dupe the concert.
      Almost puts you right back in analogue land =)
      -k
      • > ... you get generation loss every time you dupe the concert.

        You mean, the first time you transfer it to CD.

  • Found it! (Score:5, Funny)

    by sakusha ( 441986 ) on Saturday September 06, 2003 @02:52AM (#6886059)
    I have located a tape recorder [amazon.com] that will meet all the quality requirements for any Phish or Dead concert.

  • I've recently done the research (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Saturday September 06, 2003 @09:18AM (#6886810)
    I'm a long time 'dat-head' (from back in the early 90's). and lately I've heard of an attempt, using a linux-based iPaq, to create a pda-based digital spdif bit-for-bit accurate digital audio recorder. with the goal of making DAT obsolete.

    DAT is far from the idea medium. the infamous 'buzzsaw' diginoise from dirty or misaligned heads, from using thinner 90meter tapes instead of the more standard thickness 60meter ones, etc, etc. getting bit-accurate results from DAT is not due to the spdif side of things, its purely the physics of the high rpm tape head drum and the cheapness in the manufacture of something that needs a very high level of precision. and of course you also have to do regular maintenance on the system to keep it clean and aligned.

    if you can take the tape part out of DAT, it would be fine. oh, and extend it from 2 hours to something much longer (with no 'tape flips').

    the project page [core-sound.com] that I found has a pda sized expansion card that allows you to import and export digital audio via the spdif protocol. if this system works (I've not personally seen it yet), it could mean that we can finally take the physical problems of the DAT drive out of the live recording loop.

    suppose you have a wireless card as your 'storage' (think remote nfs) device. you can go to shows and capture a live digital feed (if you're lucky enough to know the soundboard guy) then remotely transmit the data via nfs/802.11 to your fileserver in your car, in the parking lot. running on the car battery, for reliability. sounds pretty darn cool to me..

    I think the card that the core-sound device was based on is the VxPocket, which you can buy today and will work on laptops. so if you don't -need- a pda sized recorder, you can bring a laptop (and 80gig drives are currently available for 2.5" drives) and capture that spdif stream directly to local storage.

    finally, it looks like there is hope for live recording enthusiasts, with hard-disk based reliability (hey, compared to tape, HD is heaven).

  • For what you want, try.. (Score:3, Informative)

    by xanderwilson ( 662093 ) on Saturday September 06, 2003 @09:41AM (#6886882) Homepage
    The Korg Pandora PXR4.

    Alex.

  • DATs and such.. (Score:4, Informative)

    by SophtwareSlump ( 595371 ) <{jamie} {at} {freakscene.net}> on Saturday September 06, 2003 @09:57PM (#6890684)
    If you're going DAT, don't buy the Sony D100 recorder. Look for the Sony M1 recorder. It's about $100 cheaper, about half the size of a D100, and comes with 2 rechargable batteries. I have an old Sony D8 and I'm waiting for it to die so I can replace it with the tiny M1.

    DATs are expensive? Really? I usually end up paying around $2 a pop for 60 meter DDS (120 minutes in 44.1/48khz mode, 240 minutes in 32khz) and $2.60 a pop for 90 meter DDS (180min , 360 min) tapes. Check American Digital [am-dig.com] and Masterpiece AV [daleproaudio.com]. If you go down to your CompUSA or Micro Center, sure you're going to pay $10 to $20 for a tape, but that's why you buy online.

    I've looked at some of the other alternatives to portable DAT machines, including the mostly open source project Core Sound is pushing, but I'm waiting for it to mature. A 1 gig compact flash card is still over $120 for the most part. That's only about 90 minutes of raw audio. Minidiscs never did it for me. I borrowed one from a friend, and the whole 80 minute capacity issue took me back to the days of flipping over tapes between songs. Do they have discs over 80 minutes for stereo recordings?

    • I have a Sony PCM-M1 and I love it. I used to have a Tascam DA-P1, which, while being the best quality portable DAT on the market, was just way too bulky for my uses (I've been recording indie rock shows [bantha-fodder.com] for 3 years now). The DA-P1 is about the size of a playstation 1, while the M1 is smaller than your average cassette walkman. Add to that some quality mic's (core-sound or what i use, sound professionals), and you can churn out really nice quality live recordings, without having to hook up to the soundboard
  • The Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3 has 48khz and 44.1khz sampling abilities, and records directly to wave files on its hard disk. In addition, because it comes in such large sizes (10-40 GB), it can store well beyond what any DAT or MD could. This is what I have been using for my concert recording as of late, and it has worked like a charm. I don't know much about the sensitivity of the line input, but I'm sure this could be found on Creative's site.
  • I used one to shoot Tupac!

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