Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy? 2117
nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
We are american... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:We are american... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:We are american... (Score:4, Funny)
If you electric car panseys were smart, you'd start promoting EV dragraces. You're sure to get BillyBob onboard when an EV starts winning at "NASCAR".
Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Informative)
A friend in another city has a hybrid. According to him the pickup is slow but the fuel economy is great. Pure electric would be super if you didn't have to make long trips and always had an electrical outlet to charge when parked.
Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.
Some Hybrids make me wonder... (Score:3, Interesting)
What if you made a full internal combustion car with a lightweight aluminum chasis, a variable speed transmission, low resistance tires and sleek aerodynamics?
The hybrids are pretty much the same except they suffer heavy batteries, gain regenerative braking and have smaller lighter IC engines.
Re:Some Hybrids make me wonder... (Score:4, Interesting)
This has pretty much been done. Aside from the full CVT, I believe this kind of car is called one of "Saturn S Series", "Honda Civic", "Toyota Corrola", etc. These cars pretty much all have a spaceframe chassis, small 4-cylinder engine, smaller tires, etc, and they represent just about the best mass-produced conventional cars can do without becoming a "Toyota Echo" or "Geo Metro".
I personally have no problems with the idea of a hybrid car. However, all we need, now, is economies of scale bringing down price. The relative simplicity of a hybrid car (electric + smaller gas engine) should allow up-front costs and maintenance costs to go even lower than current cars (eventually, that is).
Re:Some Hybrids make me wonder... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Funny)
Pet Peeve #1: All Americans who whine about the price of gas. If you really want to whine, come to the UK where our Government has turned taxing petrol into an art form.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Informative)
Pet Peeve #1: All Americans who whine about the price of gas. If you really want to whine, come to the UK where our Government has turned taxing petrol into an art form.
Now, I don't know how much y'all pay for the petrol / gas in the UK, but here in Norway about 80% of what we pay at the pump end up in the coffers of the goverment - taxes, excise duty on petrol, VAT, VAT on the taxes and the CO2-tax...
I visited the US (West Virginia to be spesific) this summer, and I commented on how cheap the petrol was; just 1$49 for a US gallon (3.7 liter), while back home I pay the equalent of 4$90 for a US gallon (the price at the pump today was 9.49 kroner / liter). So honestly, the people in the US has nothing to complain about as far as the cost of gasonile goes... in fact, if the cost of it was higher in the US, we might see more sensible cars rolling of the productionlines, and less of the gas-guzzling SUVs.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry, but the price of gas has very little to do with the total cost of going on a trip. Let's say you've got a car that gets 20 mpg, and you want to head to the beach for the weekend (say, 800 mile round trip). You're looking at 40 gallons of gas, so if the price jumped 50 cents a gallon, you're out a whopping $20. Will that make or break your vacation plans? Hardly.
For all the moaning and groaning, the bottom line is that people's habits haven't really changed much. Look at fuel economy standards, which haven't really gone anywhere in the last 15 years. I say, creep up the gas tax until habits change and people actually start focusing on fuel economy. There are plenty of good things that money could go towards (reducing budget deficits, improving & investing in civil infrastructure, etc.).
Re:but what about his point? (Score:5, Informative)
Please, please, read the statistics, you're more than twice as likely to die in a Dodge Ram 1500 [hwysafety.org] as in a safe 4-door sedan. [hwysafety.org] The safety record on pickups is simply atrocious.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:4, Insightful)
"Petrol" is two letters shorter than "gasoline" and is less ambiguous than "gas".
more on hybrids (Score:4, Informative)
For more geekier chemistry on electric/hybrids, here's Princton's chemistry website about hybrid electrics [princeton.edu]
Pros:
At a stop light, they are silent and no emissions. Silent start-up and DC-motor acceleration until the gas engine kicks on. Cool reuse of breaking energy into charging batteries instead of boring friction and heat in conventional cars. Can be used as a power plant, say, in power outages, or maybe one day, cars plugged into grid can run gas engine to produce electricty during peak times. And they sell pretty well [evworld.com]
Cons:
From a cost point of view, they'll never beat out the super-efficient gas motors mini-cars. Battery life and cost of replacement (currently >= value of older hybrid vehicle). The impact on environment for spent toxic chemicals. Engine repairs. (I'm not sure if you've ever look in one, but they are jam-packed with every inch filled and basically unserviceable in terms of the ever fewer small jobs you can do yourself). Oh, and you *MUST* use specially licensed high-voltage service techs, which are few and far between currently. Will cause gas prices to rise -- see econ 101 supply vs. demand
Re:more on hybrids (Score:5, Insightful)
How's that again? You must have taken a very different econ class from any I ever did.
The "supply" of oil is a function of the price. Higher prices mean more oil becomes economically recoverable. If the demand for oil drops, the oil that is cheapest to pump gets pumped. The rest sits in the ground.
Of course, the problem is that the cheapest oil to pump isn't governed by free market forces, it is price controlled (OPEC), so requiring less isn't necessarily going to mean much downward pressure on the price, but it certainly won't cause the price to go up.
Maybe you are thinking of economies of scale, but oil production is so far beyond the point where that is changing.
I flip over my Explorer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People who believe that SPUTES are safer really need to get a grip on reality.
Re:I flip over my Explorer! (Score:4, Interesting)
The real problem is akin to the problem of bike helmets. True story. When more people started wearing bike helmets injuries went up, not down. Why? Because they gave a false sense of invulnerability and safety. So people began driving more recklessly. It wasn't the bike helmets were inherently more dangerous. (Although recent studied have commented on neck twist injuries due to helmets) It was how people started driving their bikes.
Same with SUVs. The problem isn't the inherent safety of the SUV for those who drive halfway intelligently. It is the fact that people don't drive well. They think 4WD somehow makes them invulnerable in snow. Around here we have a lot of California students. First snow I like to sit at a particularly sharp turn and watch Californians in their SUVs go off the road because they are too dumb to drive slow on the icy snow.
The fact is that cars are a tool. They can be used well or poorly. I have a nice Pathfinder because I want to be able to drive to the places I enjoy hiking, biking and climbing. A lot of those you need 4WD to get to. I enjoy being able to go skiing and ice climbing without having to worry about the snow as much.
I complain about gas because I think a 20 cent increase in two weeks is freaking psycho. I'd probably complain the same if food or electricity went up that much. I can't afford two cars so my SUV is my primary vehicle. And while I want it for my weekend recreation I have to commute in it too. And that does add up.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Interesting)
And the idea that an Economy car is "undersized" is absolutly silly. If anything they are apropriatlysized for the general use case. Thats transporting 1 or 2 people (which is about what you see in 95% of cars on the road at any given time... SUV or otherwise).
Frankly in the long run its cheaper and safer for EVERYONE to drive an economy car, and rent a larger vehicle when you NEED one. You know that MAYBE once a year or every two years that you might move, or maybe that weekend or two you actually go camping.
Biut whatever, once oil price hit where they really should be, I imagine the much touted "Market forces" will take care of the SUVs so im not too worried. And I will still be tooling around in the most practical vehicle I have ever owned...
my motorcycle... 40 MPG in the city, 50 on the highway, small enough to make room and I NEVER have to look for parking.
Not to mention it can fit between traffic in a jam, out accelerate ANY 4 wheeler (taking off or comming to a stop), and lets face it... get the biggest fucking SUV penis extention you want...
When it comes right down to it... everyones watching ME ride down the street, you in your SUV are just another boring fish in the sea of SUVs and other cagers... and with all that... an empty tank still only costs me $5 to fill.
-Steve
Americans are pansies (Score:4, Funny)
No wonder the Iraqi's are kicking your arses now that it's down to the nitty gritty.
Return the suburban (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, I know what you mean. I'm still making payments on the personal jet. Gotta visit Europe sometimes, after all.
Seriously, you're over 25, right? Price out rentals, and see how it adds up against the purchase price and gas prices of the SUV. Try out hotwire.com [hotwire.com], and/or sign up with the various rental agencies to get their cheapest online prices. If your vacation every year is to spend a month on the road with you, the spouse, and your 5 kids, what you're saying could make sense.
If you usually *fly* somewhere for your vacations, though, it doesn't make sense. If you only need the trailer twice a year, to schlep your kid's stuff to college and back, it doesn't make sense.
I obviously don't know your personal situation... but there are actually surprisingly few people out there for whom an SUV is really logical. But how many people really have the self-awareness to just skip the rationalizations and say, "it is worth $xxxxx, angry stares from the tree-huggers, and a greater risk of killing someone to me to avoid driving a station wagon or minivan, and/or to feel bigger than anyone else on the road."
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I for one think a good start to the SUV problem is regulation. Hear me out:
Now the upshot of the truck/passenger vehicle classification dualism is that SUV's are exempt from having to meet milage and emissions standards for passenger vehicles. Therefore most SUVs have more horsepower for a comparable displacement. Yet since they're licensed as a passenger vehicle, the SUV gets cheap car plates and registration. This simply must stop! Either it's a car, or it's a truck. They can't have it both ways.
Secondly and perhaps more controversially, I believe that a new license class should be created for large SUVs. There are simply too many people unqualified to handle a 7000+ pound vehicle [new-cars.com] treating these things like big sports car! When I wanted to ride a motorcycle, I had to get a special certification on my license, and so should it be for large SUVs.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Mom and Dad and the 2.7 kids go out to buy a car. 1.7 of those kids are still in carseats, so the sedan goes out the window. Is it possible? Yes, but not desirable. So we're looking at something that has more space.
They all walk past the minivans because of the enormous stigma built up against them by young men, reluctant to be labeled as married with children. Ditto x 10 station wagons. So we're looking at Explorers, Envoys, etc.
A quick look at shows [msn.com] that the fuel economies of a 2002 Ford Winstar are roughly the same as an Explorer (17/23 vs. 17/21) (there may be some wide divergence between other models, this is Slashdot quality research). Even the Expedition is only a few mpg lower. So why are minivans spared the ire?
I think really what all this is about is culture. There are two cultures in America, the urban and the rural. Urban culturites find themselves immeasurably superior to the rurals. This is somehow hard coded into the human genome, because you can find it all the way back to Ancient Greece.
Sure, a couple of arguments get pitched up about fuel efficiency, traffic, parking spaces, but when you feel that bitterness, that resentment about seeing an SUV, what you're really resenting is the declared culture of the driver.
It works both ways by the way. I'm a rural, and it makes me sick to see a Hummer decked out with leather interior. It's as much a cultural violation to me.
Anyway, this whole penis envy thing comes from the culture clash. You see similar attitudes towards other rural tokens such as guns, pickup trucks, etc. I think it comes from a feeling that rurals are closer to a level of basic survival ~ basic masculinity, and a resentment of that. So when you see a rural token, AND see that token as a false one, you make this whole pocket Freudian association.
Don't own an SUV: can't afford one. I would own a Hummvee if I could. Only the H1, though; the H2s look like school buses to me.
Re:Let's stop this before it starts (Score:5, Funny)
Pet Peeve #i+2 - I fed my Pet Peeve today. He ate everything. I was so proud. Then I shaved him and took him outside to play, where he was suddenly run over by some insensitive clod in an SUV.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, and Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV (Explorer?) in 2004.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:4, Informative)
The Subaru station wagons are fair compromises for people who would otherwise buy an SUV. They are cheaper (in the $20Ks, not $30Ks), get decent gas milage relative to an SUV, handle amazingly well with their 16" low-profile tire and good suspension, etc. The only drawback is that tall people (taller than 6'1" or so) will probably find the driver's seat uncomfortable.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Montana winters
2. Room for passangers
3. Room for cargo
4. Doing my part to NOT FUND OIL WARS
What I really hate about all of the "super trucks" is trying to see past them at intersections.
SUVS: Safer for the owners, more dangerous for everyone else on the road.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Informative)
that is where the complain comes from though.
From my test drives of the 2003 Prius, this is not as bad as the accelerator of a 4 cycle ICE automatic... in fact, I thought it was quite better.
and given that the 2004 is more powerful, AND more fuel efficient, I think it should definitely be a consideration if you're looking at a new car.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Informative)
For the record, using Car and Driver's data, here's the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for the hybrids and a few comparisons (Ford Escape
Toyota Prius: 13.0 0-60 and 19.2 1/4 mile
Honda Insight: 11.1 0-60 and 18.3 1/4 mile
Hummer H2: 10.7 0-60 and 17.6 1/4 mile
Honda Civic: 9.3 0-60 and 17.2 1/4 mile
Mazda Protege: 9.2 0-60 and 17.0 1/4 mile
Toyota Corolla: 8.2 0-60 and 16.4 1/4 mile
Ford SVT Focus: 7.8 0-60 and 16.1 1/4 mile
MazdaSpeed Protege: 6.9 0-60 and 15.4 1/4 mile
Honda Accord: 7.0 0-60 and 15.5 1/4 mile
Mini Cooper S: 7.0 0-60 and 15.5 1/4 mile
Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS: 6.7 0-60 and 15.2 1/4 mile
Subaru Impreza WRX: 5.4 0-60 and 14.1 1/4 mile
Chevrolet Corvette: 4.5 0-60 and 13.1 1/4 mile
So, yes, these hybrids are indeed slow. Slower, in fact, than almost any car you can buy. With the exception of the Corvette, which I put in for comparison only, all of the above cars are within a few thousand dollars of either hybrid, and most are cheaper. Just a thought.
Waiting it out (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Waiting it out (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Waiting it out (Score:5, Informative)
Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
Expensive (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Expensive (Score:5, Informative)
Honda Insight = $26,000
Honda Civic hybrid = $28,500 (approx)
Plus if you're in ontario there's a $2000 sales tax rebate for hybrids.
The rest of the country get's a $1000 rebate.
Prius rocks (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Prius rocks (Score:4, Funny)
um, I dont think this is the place to put your personal ad.
Re:Prius rocks (and I've got a Honda) (Score:5, Interesting)
Good review by friends (Score:5, Informative)
The other big issue is the feel of the ride. Some people love it, others don't. They have low-friction tires and stiff suspensions (to minimize the amount of energy loss). This tends to make the car ride more like a sporty car (you feel every bump) than a luxury car (soft suspension smooths out the bumps). Some people love that, others hate it.
Overall, I'd suggest taking it out for a spin, and see whether you like it. They are practical cars though.
Re:Good review by friends (Score:4, Interesting)
The downside is the insane distances it can go while doing long distance driving. Try going 500 miles between fillups (better than 7 hours) without stoping to empty YOUR tank.
I don't know what people are complaining about pickup... I've not had any problems... but then I am not a leadfoot to start with and tend to keep it under 70 MPH anyway
Wierdest thing to happen to me in a Prius... Going over the Grapevine N of LA... going up at 70 MPH engine whining away... get to the top of the hill and start going down - and the engine cuts off. Complete silence. Very spooky going 70 with the engine off
Electric vehicles (Score:5, Funny)
(*)Sponsored by the gasoline industry of America.
Re:Electric vehicles (Score:5, Funny)
When posting on a family site please don't put gay and (*) in the same sentence. Thank you.
You know, car magazines can answer this (Score:5, Interesting)
Hybrids get great mileage, and they work. What's not to like? Buy a Prius, or a hybrid Civic. Or, wait a couple years, because Toyota is supposedly going to sell everything in a hybrid model by 2005.
Electrics... (Score:3, Informative)
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid (Score:5, Informative)
Re:2003 Honda Civic Hybrid - Me too (Score:4, Insightful)
Check out the TDI Volkswagons!! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!! (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.tdiclub.com/
Hybrid electrics are a joke, a stopgap technology until something better comes along. Don't bother.
Diesel is Dirty (Score:4, Informative)
It is true that modern diesel engines produce a lot less carbon dioxide than before, so some people claim diesels are enviromentally friendly, but diesels produce much more of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and toxic particulate matter (or soot) into the air we breathe than petrol counterparts. These particles, because they are small enough to be inhaled deep into the lungs, can cause or exacerbate a variety of serious health problems.
Even with the EuroIV(2005) and EuroV(2008) regulations, diesels are still much larger pollutants than petrol engines, and release more arsenic, lead, sulfur, and other particulate matter into the enviroment.
Re:Diesel is Dirty (Score:4, Informative)
1.) To meet SULEV standards, that current Petrol hybrid Toyota, meets you need to make less than 0.5 g/kWh of nitrogen oxides pollutants, for Diesel EuroIV standards that will be enacted in 2005 the minimum is set at 3.5 g/kWh. Most diesels cars on the road don't even meet these EuroIV standards today. Even the best Diesel standards produce six times more nitrogen oxides than the Hybrid cars discussed.
2.) low-sulfur diesels aren't widely available in the US, the country that produces the most pollutants from automobiles in the world.
3.) Bio-diesels are great but aren't available almost anywhere.
4.) 90% of particulate matter produced by diesels are less than 1 micron in size, thse small particles are not easily exhaled, and stay inside the lungs for long periods of time, corroding cells and ultimately leading to tumor growth (http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/environmentalHeal
Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!! (Score:5, Informative)
I visited a friend in Tucson once for a long weekend. He had the Jetta TDI at the time and including him, there were five of us in that car touring the city for days. With mountains. The car didn't even breathe hard.
After 400 miles, the car still had half a tank left.
People often look at cars as strictly a numbers game, but the TDIs (and hybrids and electrics) can be foolers. All get their pull from very strong, early torque. A good electric job with "only" 60 horsepower has tremendous torque early on, and can seriously give most Mustangs and Camaros a run for the money up to about 30MPH, which is how lots of us suburban/city people live: 0-30-0-45-0, etc.
Another exmaple of great torque early on are VW's 1.8T engines, which are rated for (depending on model year) 150-190 horsepower, but are incredibly strong right off the line. The turbo is actually ALWAYS engaged, but engages gradually more as the revs climb, giving the engine a very flat torque and power curve. "Turbo lag", as the term normally means, doesn't exist.
It's often said that people "buy horsepower but drive torque." Something to remember.
For quite a while, the Insights were besting Miata's and many other "small" cars in class "H" races, I believe, not through big engines, but strong, early torque and very tight handling. I haven't kept up, lately.
Re:Why are there no diesel-electric hybrids? (Score:5, Informative)
Try the Prius (Score:3, Insightful)
Alternative fuels are necessary for national security, in my opinion.
1) The US defeated Japan and Germany chiefly by starving them of oil. The Japanese and Germans had jet fighter planes sitting on the tarmac, ready to pulverize the best we had in the air, but they had no oil to fly them. One day the same thing could happen to America.
2) The environmental impact of fossil fuels, of course, is horrible.
3) With alternative fuels, we wouldn't need to be in the Middle East at all.
Alternative, renewable fuel resources will take us a long way towards national and personal independence.
One word, ... (Score:3, Funny)
Camel
Nuff said.
(Note: Don't go dromedary. Lazy as can be. Uncomfortable. Spend a little extra for the second hump. It's worth it.)
Get a Prius! (Score:5, Informative)
The current model doesn't carry a whole lot, and you can't tow with either generation, but for most of us, that's not a regular issue. The new version is a hatchback with fold-downs eats, so it solves the "carrying stuff" issue.
There's plenty of Yahoo! Groups and other forums on electric or hybrid cars. A couple I personally hang out on and post alot of good geek info:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
See you there!
buy a motorcycle (Score:3, Informative)
If you buy a jap cruiser, you can spend as little as $5,000, up to $30,000+ for high-end bikes or Harleys. I own and highly recommend the Suzuki VL800 Volusia. A phat 800cc cruiser for around $6500.
I fill my tank for $7 (~3.8 gallons) and go 175 miles.
Re:buy a motorcycle (Score:3, Funny)
You have no idea.
A couple of thoughts... (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, here in Oregon, there were complaints that with higher fuel efficiency, there is fewer tax dollars coming from gas to repair roads with. So they cranked up the registration fees of hybrids. That's another cost I would have to have endured.
You should take some time to do some math. How much does gas cost now? How much is it likely to go up for the period you plan on having your car?What's the cost difference in buying it today? Is there any real benefit?
Short of some disaster that destroys or cuts off our oil supply, I can't think of a reason not to go with a traditional gas guzzler.
Re:A couple of thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)
1999..........$0.899
2003..........$1.799
Yeah, it can't possibly double by 2007. Why, we'd have to get involved in a war in the Middle East and have accidents at offshore oil rigs and have problems with the Alaskan Pipe line and have an energy company-friendly administration that won't release oil reserves...
Ars Technica had a great review already (Score:5, Informative)
Prius: (Score:3, Interesting)
One neat feature the Prius has is a "B" setting on its automatic transmission. This is like regular drive, except it is used for long downhill stretches where breaking is needed, the "B" setting forces constant regenerative braking so you store much of that descent energy.
As I understand it, Toyota plans on putting the dual in all their new vehicles after a certain point. I would certanly like on in my 1989 4Runner as the gas milage on that thing is awful.*
* FYI I am probably one of the few people you see on the road who can acutally justify owning a SUV as I need it for teaching Whitewater kayaking and Mountaneering.
My experiences (Score:4, Informative)
I've been driving a 2003 Toyota Prius since April. I'm very happy with it.
It has decent acceleration, about the same as other cars I've driven. It's comfortable, quite roomy for a small car, the back seat has decent leg room. I get 45-48 miles per gallon, closer to 45 during hot periods when I use the A/C a lot. I paid about $21K, including options (I didn't get the GPS system). There's also a tax credit for hybrid vehicles that you should look into.
The acceleration from a standing start is quite good because both engines (electric and gasoline) pull. The gasoline engine cuts off at stops, and in slow stop-and-go traffic only the electric motor runs, which is why the Prius gets better fuel efficiency in city driving than on the highway (the EPA rating is 52 city, 47 highway).
The 2004 Prius appears to be a substantial improvement: it's larger, but gets even better fuel efficiency.
Get a (modern) Diesel: VW TDI (Score:4, Informative)
* fun to drive (german engineering)
* available from small Golf, sedan Jetta, wagon JettaWagen or trendy NewBug
* very safe (tons of safety features by default)
* lotsa torque (you drive torque, not horsepower)
* great mileage (EPA certifies 49 hwy, 42 city)
* you can run on BioDiesel (all or mixture of BioD + diesel)
* soon, Diesel in the US will be very clean (extra low sulphur diesel, like in Europe and Japan)
* diesel is proven technology
* 700 miles on one tank (some guys get 1000 miles)
* diesel fuel has waaay stabler price (no high huckups) than gas
* low maintenance (no sparkplugs, longer oil change intervals...)
* engines made by Audi engineers
* you can easily tinker the engine yourself
Check out http://www.tdiclub.com
I own a TDI and is just great.
Peace!
Toyota Prius Reliability (Score:3, Informative)
Green Vehicles (Score:3, Informative)
A good source of general information on fuel economy is the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide [epa.gov]. This will provide some good information and cold, hard numbers. Of course, the only way to know you'll be really satisfied is by taking one for a test drive.
You better be careful (Score:3, Funny)
Remember the Total Infomation Awareness project?
Don't you think they read Slashdot?
And what about your neighbours or the mail guy, have you already forgotten about the Terrorism Information and Prevention System?
Better be a good citizen and get that SUV.
Neither!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Definitely get a Honda Civic Hybrid (Score:5, Informative)
My girlfriend got a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) last April. This vehcile is phenominal. As soon as I have the money, I will be getting one myself.
With proper driving technique, I've gotten it as high as 52.6mpg (average). (There is an instantaneous mpg meter beneath the average gauge that shows you what you're getting as you go over hills and so forth--it really helps you adjust your driving for maximum efficiency.) Without much thought, it usually averages between 43-46mpg. With a 12.7 gallon (it might be 13) tank, I've gone as far as 620 miles.
The engineering is quite nice, the car has been very reliable. The ride is remarkably smooth and the acceleration is silky. Handling is amazing. One nasty downside is the car is very light, so it hydroplanes easier than most vehicles. I would highly recommend getting AA-AAA rated tires (like Falkens) if you drive in wet areas a lot. They will help reduce this.
The interior is great too. If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you would think you were driving a regular car (albeit the console is very slick, kind of a retro look). It's a very spatious, full-sized sedan. The backseat floor does not have a hump in the middle and is also quite generous space-wise. I cannot say enough about the interior: it's a very decent size.
A quick summary of how it works: you have a small, 1.3L gasoline engine (I think 52hp). Right on the drive train, just before the transmission is the electric motor (that contribute an aditional 41hp for a total of 93). When electricity is "pumped" into the motor, it obviously reduces the load on the engine. This is used for acceleration and hill climbing. When idle, the electric motor does what all motors do when pushed externally: it generates power to charge the battery. The brakes are regenerative. When you stop at traffic lights or stop-signs, the engine stops to save gasoline. Since it has solid state ignition, it has zero turn-over, so it starts instantly (as soon as you let off the brake).
Apparantly, there are also a variety of hacks that can be done to cause it to favor the electric motor more for those of us who are really light on the gas pedal. I haven't really investigated this, so consider them rumors.
My recommendation: get one ASAP. You will not be disappointed with this car. It could use a few extra trimmings, but even in its simplicity feature-wise, it's a very enjoyable car. My girlfriend calculates it will pay for itself in a matter of 5 years. Nothing much more to say. At least go test drive one.
Oh, and we also looked at the Toyota Prius. Those things suck ass. They are very rough to drive. The computer screen is always full of motion and it's very distracting without lending much usefulness. Furthermore, it's cramped inside and the vehcile controls are just... bizarre. The engine compartment is also very cramped. Doing work on that vehicle would require taking a lot of shit apart, ergo it may be very expensive to service. Handling sucked. Overall, the Toyota Prius is just as shitty as its Echo counterpart.
One last note: you may want to hold off on a hybrid from anyone though. Honda has plans to market a fuel-cell powered electric car in the US within the next couple of years. Those will be far more interesting I think, if they ever actually reach dealerships.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Honda in any way. They just happen to make a spectacular hybrid vehcile.
Re:Definitely get a Honda Civic Hybrid (Score:4, Informative)
All modern Honda Accords and Civics use the same frame and base. The only difference is the shell and the luxuries. Also, try getting into one. They're quite large.
It looks cool. It's hard to get much information from that Flash crap though. Is there anywhere I can go to just get information, not a marketer's wet-dream manifested by a cheasy Flash animation?
However, it seems my primary complaint with the Prius remains in effect: the car tries too damn hard to be futuristic.
Joe Consumer doesn't want a car that looks and feels like it's from 50 years in the future. Joe Consumer doesn't want an Enterprise shuttle craft. That is not going to turn on most people except for geeks and early adopters.
I see hybrids as a direction with a specific purpose: reduce gasoline consumption as much as possible. This has many benefits which I will not elaborate on besides saving money and the environment. The Prius does not work to encourage the masses to accept electric cars. The masses don't want to know it's an electric car. They really don't care. Basically, Toyota is pushing TECHNOLOGY TECHNOLOGY TECHNOLOGY. Honda is pushing a practical, attractive car (oh, and by the way, it's electric and gets good gas milage). The Prius is loud and obnoxious. The Civic Hybrid is subtle and calm. See my point?
Toyota needs to offer a car that's offering these features and doesn't appear to be from the sapce age. That will attract many more people to the offerings. Right now, the perpetuate the stereotype (myth) that all electric cars must have this insane tear-drop shape and other crap. Sure, it may be better for aerodynamics, but people don't want that.
That was just a summary: here's answers. (Score:4, Informative)
They are a great value. Your mom would be proud of you.
If driven properly, you should see as high as 46-48mpg in city driving. If you drive with little concern for economy, you usually get around 43-45mpg.
How about on long road trips?Again, driven carefully, I've gotten as high as 52.6mpg on my girl's Honda Civic Hybrid. That is accomplished by driving around ~55mph and slowing a bit when climbing hills. If you drive aggressively (say, 65-70mpg constant), you get around 47-48mpg. They can certainly keep up with traffic, mind you.
Remember, this experience is with a Honda Civic Hybrid, not a Prius. Your milage (arf) will vary.
Honda Civic Hybrid (Score:5, Informative)
First, the good news: I drive my car about 40 miles a day (driving commutes suck!) and get around 55 miles per gallon. My commute is about 70%/30% highway to city driving. When I drive it around the city (which I generally try _not_ to do - Boston is bike-friendly enough, plus I live near the T), I get mileage closer to 50 mpg, and when I've gone on longer roadtrips it's up near 60 mpg.
More good news: It's a real car. It seats five. It has a reasonable sized trunk (not huge, though). With a few exceptions, it's very similar to the non-hybrid Civic, so my car is comfortable, well equipped (CD player, power everything, ABS, etc.) and pretty well designed. I wasn't interested in the Insight 'cause it's small and somewhat awkward and not what I call a "real" car.
The not-so-good news: The one large complaint I have about the car is that the back seat does not fold down (that's where they stashed the batteries).
Some economics: I spent a little less than $20K on my car. The hybrid is about three or four thousand more than the regular Civic. I'll get a $2000 deduction on my 2003 income tax (giving me about $600), and I'll save some (but not tons) on gas vs. the regular Civic that probably adds up to over about $1500 over 100,000 miles. So basically, I break even. If I had bought a used car, I would've spent far less money, even in the long run.
I think I made the right decision when I bought my car because:
So, the bad news is that supporting hybrid technology and being good to the environment (while still owning a car) is an expensive proposition right now. The good news is that the more and more people are buying the cars and that if you can afford them, they're quality automobiles.
I'd be happy to answer questions about the Civic or my decision-making process. I also collected some links and made some notes about the car - you can see those here [dsz123.net].
You note the cost. Interesting point... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, Civic Hybrids are fairly expensive vehicles for what you get. It's a matter of weighing the appropriate price-performance ratio.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
So while it's good that we're supporting hybrid technology and trying to encourage auto manufacturers, they may not move forward as quickly as we'd like. Perhaps with increased popularity, they'll produce a higher volume and refine the manufacturing process? Who knows.
Unfortunately, according to the same salesperson, Honda is interested in selling these vehicles so they can reduce the average vehicle emmissions of all cars they sell. This allows them to legally sell more SUVs and other gas guzzlers (hence they are willing to make a 10,000$ write-off on every Civic Hybrid). Nothing for free it seems. What a lousy trade-off.
Current US hybrid choices (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius [toyota.com]
2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html [toyota.com]
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printab
if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.
if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com [hybridford.com] (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html [lexus.com]
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.
I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).
Diesel-Electric Hybrids Are Coming (Score:5, Interesting)
I drive one (Score:5, Informative)
There are three hybrids being sold right now:
- Honda Civic Hybrid
- Honda Insight
- (2003) Toyota Prius
The Hondas use a gas engine as their primary engine with an electric engine (which doubles as a generator during braking) as a secondary source of acceleration. Think of this arrangement as a gas engine with a massive-battery-powered electric supercharger. If the electric engine fails, the gas engine will still get you there -- it just accelerates slower.
The Prius is the other way around -- its primary engine is electric, and a secondary gas engine gives it the acceleration. In the Prius, it is possible to drive (with very little gas pedal pressure) on electric alone -- something the Prius owners call "Zen driving." If the gas engine fails, you can still drive on the electric.
Reliability:
I know people who own both a Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) and a 2003 Prius. I personally own the HCH. I would have no hesitation in buying one again. I average 54 MPG in the summer, and 45 MPG in the winter. Range is ~600 miles per tank; I drive 50 miles a day, and fill up twice a month. I have heard that it is possible to get ~700 miles/tank in a Prius, but have never got a first hand report of that.
The Honda had one early bug with deep, cold weather -- very occasionally, the electric system would shut down and not restart until the car was shut down and restarted. A flash of the computer firmware fixed it. Many people reported this problem. It also had an issue with a squeak in a support pillar, fixed by shimming with a business card. Maintenance visits are scheduled for every 10000 miles. Gas mileage is better on the highway (51 mpg) than the city (49 mpg).
The 2003 Prius has had more problems. Issues were with "highway wandering" -- it feels like the car wants to migrate around the road -- and shaking of the steering wheel at low speeds. Cause: the entire power steering rack needed to be replaced. There's also the gas engine failure called the "Big Hand" that's fixed with a similar car reboot, but it's caused by the Accelerator Pedal Assembly needing to be replaced. Many people report that they've had both of these problems. Maintenance is more frequent at 7,500 miles. Gas mileage is better in the city (51 mpg) than the highway (49 mpg).
I don't know anyone who drives a Honda Insight. Supposedly they still make ~1500 of them a year, but rumor has it that Honda is going to be dropping them.
Near-term and Farther-out Models:
The Prius has been out longer than the HCH, and is getting a technological refresh in 2004. The 2003 Prius and the HCH are both 4-seater compacts, but the 2004 Prius will be a mid-size, with better mileage (59 city, 51 highway) and better acceleration (0-60 in 10 instead of 12). There is currently a waiting list for them.
Cars/Trucks/SUVs due to be released as hybrids in 2004:
Honda Accord,
Honda CR-V,
Ford Escape
2004 or 2005:
Chevy Silverado
Saturn Vue
GMC Suburban
Here's an in-depth look [ucsusa.org] at Hybrid technology from the Union of Concerned Scientists (Google HTML translation here [216.239.51.104]).
Here's the best description [arstechnica.com] of what it's like to drive one.
There is a federal tax deduction of $2000 [fueleconomy.gov] for buying a new hybrid. Several states also offer their own tax deductions or credits -- check here [dsireusa.org] to look them up. Some states (but not all) also let you drive them in their high occupancy lanes, even though you may only have one driver in it.
Oh, by the way -- I know that the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrids are
Hybrids don't beat good driving habits (Score:4, Insightful)
2-door Dodge Neon I get 41 highway and 33 city -- and the car was very cheap to buy, there are no modifications and the car has 132hp and a
In the end, the Prius, for example, can only do at most 10% better then that so it does not justify twice the cost. I bet if I made my Neon as aerodynamic as the Prius (.26 CD) and put on the same tires (less rolling resistance) I could get near the same gas mileage as the Prius.
Gas mileage is also *heavily* dependant on driving style due to the laws of conservation of energy -- the top things overall that I found increase it are:
1) Standard transmission -- almost all cars with a
standard get better gas mileage then an
automatic.
2) Drive 55 -- Going from 75mph on the highways to
55 increased gas mileage by 26%!
3) Anticipate lights (let the car roll to slow
down when you see a red light ahead of time
rather then breaking at the last minute) saves
a lot, too.
4) Coast down hills
5) Accelerate slowly
If you follow these rules and buy a compact car you'll get near the hybrid's gas mileage with no fancy technology.
Re:CNG Vehicles (Score:4, Insightful)
Buy a smaller car that gets great gas mileage (ie Saturns are a good example) that doesn't cost much money (Saturn SL-series cars (before the ugly Ion's) were under 12k).
That's my worthless
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:3, Informative)
I have a bud who owns one and loves it (the Toyota hybrid). While the mileage isn't as good as they advertise it to be, it certainly is up there... almost as good as the old Geo Metro 3-cylinder car.
And you can't beat how cool it is when you're sitting at a stop light and the car is absolu
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Try to maintain a constant speed.
2. Accelerate evenly when taking off, using a moderate amount of electric motor assist.
3. Try to maintain a steady cruising speed between 35 and 45mph. The mpg bar will show you know when you've found the "sweet spot".
4. Gas mileage is noticeably higher in warmer weather.
5. Maintain large following distances, avoid hard braking, and roll through stops whenever possible. If you start braking early enough for that stop light, it could turn green while you're at 12mph instead of sitting at a dead stop.
6. Use the hardest, lowest rolling resistance tires you feel comfortable with (the stock Bridgestone Potenzas are good for me). Keep them properly inflated; underinflation decreases fuel economy.
7. Above about 30mph, you get better mpg with the windows up and air conditioner/vent in "economy" than with the windows down. Never use "auto" mode, since it disables the Insight's auto-stop feature.
Contrary to popular opinion, using a higher-grade gasoline has shown no noticeable affect on fuel economy.
My lifetime mpg over ~22,800 miles is 59.7mpg, including a trip from Louisville, KY to Seattle, WA and back by way of Montana. Through Snoqualmie and Lookout Pass. In January. With stock tires & no chains. As long as you don't try to plow through snow deeper than about 5-6", you should be fine through the winter.
Final note: don't forget to check with your accountant for a possible tax break (both state and federal) on your "green" vehicle. Being able to write off a couple thousand in taxes can make that $20,000 Insight a hell of a lot more appealing.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Informative)
500 miles on a tank of gas IS pretty spectacular, when said tank is only 13.2 gallons. 42 mpg average so far, with a mix of commuting and highway driving. That figure is still rising too. I did about a 100 mile round trip highway, and got 53 mpg. Damn nice on the wallet.
The Civic Hybrid is just that. A Civic. The only significant difference is that you can't fold the rear seat down because that's where the battery pack is mounted vertically behind the read seat. Trunk space? you couldn't even the tell battery pack was there if it wasn't pointed out to you. Plenty of space for normal people.
The dealer readily admits they aren't entirely sure how long the battery pack will remain useful. So it comes with an 8 yr 80k mile warranty on that system; independant of the vehicle warranty. I got a 6 yr 100k total vehicle warranty so it's good for as long as I realistically plan to have it.
Geek factor: I'm finding it's cool being able to watch (& feel) the electric assist kick in. Or the engine shut off while I'm braking to a stop. The engine shut off is selectable; there's an 'econ' button on the dash. If it's not selected then the engine won't stop. Summer and needing AC are the main reason for that. The AC doesn't run if the engine isn't running. The fan still works but it can get warm. Having the option is a nice touch.
I'm still in the 'new car' mode of figuring things out, but this has a whole knew paradigm of stuff to figure out. The dash gauges are a pretty informative mix of what's going on. It has a instant mpg bar that goes up n down as you drive, as well as displaying the overall mpg for a trip mileage. (2 of these). One I have on total vehicle mileage so I can see what I'm getting as I continue driving. The other I use for various trips to see what different types of driving produce fuel economy wise.
All in all I'm very happy with it so far.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Interesting)
Do the math: let's say you drive 12k miles a year, this is 285 gallons of gas. So you pay around $500 a year for gas. A regular sedan owner with 21 mpg would pay twice as much, ie $500 a year more. In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service.
So from the point of view of money, hybrids do not worth it - and would be considerably worse if automakers were not forced to sell them (some percentage of total cars sold should be hybrid or electric in U.S.).
I think hybrids are great for environment and a cool techno gadget, but hopes of saving on gas - forget about it. Not in the U.S. where gas is still very cheap (compare with Europe).
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Insightful)
I would disagree. A hybrid car can save money in some other ways too:
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:4, Insightful)
Not that anyone seems to give a rat's ass about the air we breathe, all the arguments here are about horsepower and saving money.
Environmental Mafia (Score:5, Funny)
And with the 500 miles off of a single tank of gas, there is no credit card trail at gas stations on the way to drop off the body. Efficient and practical.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Insightful)
My parent's 1988 Ford Aerostar had all that. My dad's 95 VW Jetta had that, as does my brother's 2000 Jetta. I'm sort of amused that most people haven't had this kind of thing for years.
I think you missed a key point - he's not talking about mileage, he's talking about a REALTIME miles-per-gallon display. That is the instantaneous mpg your vehicle is traveling at a moment in time. I have a 2000 Jetta with every option, and unless he added it afterwards, your brother does NOT have this option.
On a different note on this feature, the only cars I've seen with a real-time mpg display before the hybrids started coming out was all the BMWs (that I've driven) for the last decade or so. It is a very handy feature that I think more cars SHOULD have. It's amazing to see how little changing your highway speed in a BMW M3, for example, makes the different between a constant 20mpg on the highway and between a constant 25-30mpg.
It's also very amusing to watch your realtime mpg when you're jaunting around a racetrack. If you want to see how hard you're really driving the car, it's alot more telling to watch the mpg instead of the speedometer or even the tach. I still get a thrill everytime I blip the throttle to downshift to third at turn 11 at Thunderhill and watch the mpg dial spike from 20 to almost zero in an instant.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe you have every option for the model you seleced, but I can assure you that the top-end (US models, at least) VW Jettas have had both instantaneous and average MPG displays since 1998 at least (my 1998 Jetta had it, as did my 2000, and so does my new 2003 Jetta GLX).
I can't recall the acronyms for the older sub-models, but in the case of 2003 Jettas, you can't get the "dash computer" (which includes the MPG displays among other cool features, such as miles remaining in tank, trip time, etc.) unless you get the GLX model, which really has no options (I think you can pay for 17" rims vs. the standard 16", but that's not really an option, more of a dealer-provided aftermarket thing, I believe). You get V6, leather, sunroof, power everything with memory, monsoon stereo, automatic climate control, trip-tronic automatic transmission, alloy rims, etc. with the GLX whether you like it or not, and several of those features are unavailable on lower-end Jettas.
To bring this a little bit back OT, I'm surprised that the mileage isn't better than the 30-50 the opsted noted. I get 29-31MPG avg in the city with my V6 Jetta (and I am an acelleration-addict), and almost 40MPG on highway trips. I thought the hybrids were much better.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Funny)
repair costs
What makes hybrids affordable is that there are massive government subsidies reducing the price of the car. This masks the fact that many of the parts for these cars are enormously expensive. A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
If the long-term potential costs of maintenance and parts doesn't scare you off, and you don't expect to haul a boat trailer or something, then the hybrid cars can be a terrific way to go. Fantastic gas millage and a super-quiet ride. The inventor of regenerative breaks should get a medal.
Personally, I'll stick with my Crown Victoria for now. It may drink gas, (I get about 20 MPG from my highway and city driving combined) but it's safe, it seats six, and has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags. Plus, the V8 is powerful enough to tow a lot of stuff when I need to, and the suspension is so smooth, it's like driving a hovercraft. Best of all, the reputation for being an "old man's car" means cheap insurance in spite of being almost the same car that the cops are tearing around town in.
The Crown Vic LS is like a Lincoln town car for half the price, and is the most under-rated car of the last decade, IMHO.
If you really want to get a hybrid car, consider looking for a used Toyota Prius, perhaps sold by some Yuppie asshole who only bought it to be trendy, and wants to trade up to a Mini Cooper S now that Minis are considered the New Hotness.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Informative)
Get real! (Score:5, Informative)
A Honda Civic Hybrid that gets into a "minor" collision is going to use the exact same parts to repair as a non-hybrid Civic!!! Meaning there is less chance of it getting totaled, because it cost more!!! The only non standard parts are the engine, batteries, and dashboard. The batteries are in the safest place in the car -- behind the rear seat. If your batteries and dashboard are destroyed, you've got bigger problems then replacing your car -- you're most likely dead. "Minor" collisions rarely require replacing engines; if you're in a collision that requires a new engine, your car is probably totalled regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid!
Why I read Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)
Chop 'em up? Why, I never would have thought of that!
You know, it's just that sort of practical use-it-every-day knowledge that keeps me coming back here to Slashdot! Thanks, guys!
Awsome troll! (Score:4, Informative)
LOL! Now that is the best troll that I have seen in quite some time! I usually do not respond to them, but some people migh fall for the parent comment.
Propane [npga.org] is certainly not a gas that came straight from the ground. It requires more processing than gasoline. It is no more renewable than it's parent source and was created by a fellow who thought gasoline companies were ripping everybody off.
Natural Gas [naturalgas.org] is the stuff that comes from the ground and is non-renewable.
Methane [epa.gov] is "renewable" and the EPA also identifies it as a "greenhouse gas" (for those of you who believe in that greenhouse nonsense).
Now, if you have the instructions to a gas grill, see what those instructions have to say about propane, methane and naturel gas. They usually say the three are not interchangable or that modifications must be performed before switching.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:4, Interesting)
They are still CRAP (TM). They will continue to be crap until they are 100% fuel cell driven or batery driven. If your main engine is electric having breaking recouperation makes sense. If it is hybrid it only adds weight, complexity and increases maintenance costs and it cannot recoup more then around 20% of the used energy ().
For example the new Toyota Prius delivers lower MPG then the Daihatsu Sirion which is made by the same Toyota group (51 best vs 57 best). It is also slower and more sluggish (14 s to 62 compared to under 9.0). It also has higher emissions (almost twice worse on all counts). All of it while carrying the same amount of passengers and having only 30 liters more luggage space. It has a huge maintenance bill as the battery cells last only around 40-50 thousand miles and it has high ongoing maintenance as well. It is also a bomb. There are very few things that are more suicidal then sitting on a shorting battery in an accident with a fuel tank nearby.
Also I will not even compare it to a modern diesel. The new Audi A2 TDI which once again carries the same number of people and has the same luggage space (320 or so liters) can deliver 80mpg with even less emissions then the Sirion. That is VW which I hate. Still it is the diesel king, but Peugeot, Mitsubishi and several others are not that far behind with figures in the 50-60 MPG with corresponding emissions for a small family car. They also beat the crap out of the Prius on maintenance, acceleration and overall driving experience.
Hybrids are not the answer. They help develop technology which is useful for fuel cell or fully electric vehicles, but they are definitely not the answer. So I think they should be sponsored even further so that technology can be developed. But I will not buy one. I will chose something less polluting.
I prefer hydrogen. (Score:4, Funny)
Wimp! (Score:4, Funny)
Breaking? (Score:4, Funny)
Then you should buy an American hybrid. American cars break all the time. ;)
Re:Deathtraps (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Weird brakes (Score:4, Insightful)
have to get used to the new car.
Compared to most other vehicles, the Toyota Prius'
brakes can seem a little "grabby." After a short
time driving, you get used to it.
Heck, I'd rather have "grabby" brakes compared to
"mushy" brakes any day, for safety reasons!