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What to Do When Your ISP Steals Your Domain? 68

Posted by Cliff from the digital-claim-jumping dept.
sahonen asks: "Some web hosting providers also provide domain registration on the side, which is great for users who want to keep things simple. What ends up happening, though, is the user will want to switch hosting providers, but their old host will hold on to the domain to try and lock the user in. I've seen this happen many times and it's not pretty. This happened to a friend of mine just recently and he's asking me for advice. I don't want him to have to buy another domain when he's worked so hard to establish his old one. Aren't domains legal property (we are in the US here)? Can he nail the old host for cybersquatting? And for the philosophers, how do these hosts expect to maintain a good reputation when they engage in such unscrupulous business practices?"
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What to Do When Your ISP Steals Your Domain? More

What to Do When Your ISP Steals Your Domain?

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  • this makes changing hosts trivial... In terms of moving the domain anyways.

  • slashdot effect (Score:4, Funny)

    by lubricated ( 49106 ) <michalp.gmail@com> on Thursday October 02, 2003 @06:19PM (#7118473)
    Q: What to do when someone steals your domain?

    A: Slashdot Them!
  • This is why I host everything for my domain myself. Its hard to trust any company in this day and age.
    • This is why I host everything for my domain myself. Its hard to trust any company in this day and age.

      I made my own car out of wood, organic tea leaves, and bamboo. It's hard to trust any auto maker in this day and age, so I do it myself.
      • My point was that with all the click through agreements you never know how the company might try to screw you. Sure, the EULA might not hold up in court but how many end users can afford to got to court against a mutimillion dollar company? With Linux anyone with sufficent knowledge can host their own domain and have complete ownership and control.
        • However, you still have to trust a registrar.

          I use the same provider for both my DNS service and my domain registration. The rest I handle myself through a cobbled together web of broadband connections and a virtual server at 65535.net.
  • IANAL, but check the agreement he had to sign when he registered the domain. It may have said something along the lines of "we, the Company, hereby retain all rights of ownership to the domain. In exchange for a monthly fee of $[amount], we will allow the Customer usage of the domain." If it's got something like that, there's not much he can do, since they legally own the domain. It's underhanded and unethical, but still legal.
    • Are you a lawyer or not? That doesn't sound legal at all, despite the wording.
    • There was a period of a couple years where lots of companies were doing this, especially the various free webhosts. "Free hosting with your own domain name!" etc. I don't know anyone personally who got bit by it, but I did look at several hosters contracts and there was language to this effect in it.
  • Check with your "friend" (this is you isn't it?) and see if he trademarked or copyrighted his company or domain name. Then merely have the ISP served with papers to transfer the name. To be honest though, your friend shouldn't have signed up unless his name was going on the ownership documents. I'm sure this could fall under some sort of class action. If it's a bigger host, then there would be a lot of people involved. This doesn't help in the interim though. He may be just stuck. If the ISP has dece
    • You can't copyright a company name or a domain name. Just FYI.

      Personally, I think this phenomenon falls under the auspices of two adages: know what you're agreeing to and don't put all your eggs in one basket. If the terms of service for this registration did not specify an owner for the domain, or explicitly made the ISP the owner, then he's screwed. The WHOIS record for this domain looks like a person owns it. I don't see why the registrar wouldn't accept changes from him provided he can authenticate.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @06:30PM (#7118602)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Hold Onto the Domain? (Score:5, Informative)

    by bellings ( 137948 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @06:30PM (#7118608)
    Can you explain what you mean by "Hold Onto the Domain?" According to Network Solutions, the WHOIS info is:

    Domain ID: D3077347-CNO
    Domain Name: bigboydrums.com
    Creation Date: 2003-01-16 17:47:38 UTC
    Expiration Date: 2004-01-16 16:50:28 UTC
    Sponsoring Registrar: CORE-95
    Created by: CORE-95
    Updated by: CORE-95
    Last Updated By Registrar: CORE-95
    Maintainer: 95
    Registrant ID: COCO-1401654
    Registrant Name: Daniel Cervantes
    Registrant City: Moreno Valley
    Registrant State/Province: CA
    Registrant Postal Code: 92557
    Registrant Country: US
    Registrant Phone Number: +90.96408124
    Registrant Fax Number: +.
    Registrant Email: danrox79@aol.com
    Admin ID: COCO-1401655
    Admin Name: Daniel Cervantes
    Admin City: Moreno Valley
    Admin State/Province: CA
    Admin Postal Code: 92557
    Admin Country: US
    Admin Phone Number: +90.96408124
    Admin Fax Number: +.
    Admin Email: danrox79@aol.com
    Tech ID: COCO-68844
    Tech Name: Fast DNS
    Tech Organization: FastDNS
    Tech Address: 4 trefoil drive
    Tech City: Trumbull
    Tech State/Province: CT
    Tech Postal Code: 06611
    Tech Country: US
    Tech Phone Number: +99.99999999
    Tech Email: reg@fastdns.net
    Zone ID: COCO-68844
    Zone Name: Fast DNS
    Zone Organization: FastDNS
    Zone Address: 4 trefoil drive
    Zone City: Trumbull
    Zone State/Province: CT
    Zone Postal Code: 06611
    Zone Country: US
    Zone Phone Number: +99.99999999
    Zone Email: reg@fastdns.net
    Name Server: ns1.worldaxxs.net
    Name Server: ns2.worldaxxs.net

    Database last updated on 2003-10-02 22:25:44 UTC
    Are you saying that your friend registered the domain through his hosting company, but someone at the hosting company named "Daniel Cervantes" registered it in his own name instead?

    If that is the case, then you don't have a domain squatter. You have theft through deception. Take them to court.
    • Interestingly enough, that happened to me too... A domain that I have owned for years suddenly had someone from the University of Wollongong, (I googled that; it's somewhere in New Zealand) as the technical contact...

      Fortunately, my name was still Administrative contact, so I simply logged into the Network Solutions site and kicked the loser off. It's not like my domain gets any traffic; I mainly use it for email, so either NS screwed up or some hacker screwed around...
      • A domain that I have owned for years suddenly had someone from the University of Wollongong, (I googled that; it's somewhere in New Zealand) as the technical contact...

        Yeah, just like the University of California is somewhere in Canada.

        Maybe some 'hacker' had been screwing around with Google?
      • wollongong = australia not new zealand.

        Some might argue that nz is our eighth state tho. Theres actually a provision in the aust constitution welcoming them in. They seem to of declined the offer :)
        • Some might argue that nz is our eighth state

          Whereas the more astute will know that Australia is properly considered the West Island of New Zealand.

          (To make that slightly less localized humour -- NZ has two main islands, imaginatively named the North Island and the South Island. There's also a third very small island at the bottom, but nobody talks about it very much because it's called Stewart Island, and that confuses the system too much.)
    • Dan Cervantes is the owner of the Big Boy Drum company. The problem is that the ISP won't let him transfer the DNS to the server he wants to move his web site to, actually a web host I run. No, I won't plug it, 'cause we're near our bandwidth limit already. =D

      • Solution is simple... (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Since Mr. Cervantes is listed as the Admin contact for the domain, all he has to do is contact the registrar and change the technical contact for this domain to himself, then he can set the nameservers to whatever addresses/hostnames he pleases, whenever he pleases. Do bear in mind that once you change you nameservers on the domain record, it may take as long as a day or so for the updates to propagate around the planet.
      • So... the webhosting company currently hosting the site doesn't want to just host the DNS and e-mail and point the website elsewhere?

        Find a new company to do your DNS, and e-mail and
        contact the registrant to move everything.
      • So in other words, OLM is not "Holding your domain hostage" by listing themselves as the registrant, you just don't know what you are doing. And you are a webhost. Great. I feel very sorry for your "Customers".

        If OLM doesn't allow you to point the domain to another nameserver, all you have to do is transfer the domain from OLM to another registrar. The transfer will go through without any problems because your friend is the contact. This will all happen without OLM's approval.

        Once you've transfered

    • I live about 20 miles from moreno valley, get me an address and I'll go kick his ass :)
    • Take it up with CORE or see if Ari (esqwire.com) can provide any advice/assistance.

  • Read the fine print (Score:4, Informative)

    by Rick the Red ( 307103 ) <Rick.The.Red@gma i l .com> on Thursday October 02, 2003 @06:31PM (#7118622) Journal
    What does his agreement with the ISP say? If it says they own the domain, he's screwed. The domain should have been registered in his name in the first place; the fact that it was registered in the ISP's name should have been his first clue.

    BTW, domain name disputes cost $1000 to $2000 [internic.net]. So if the ISP is asking less than $1000, that may be your cheapest route out of this mess, as morally repugnant as that sounds.

  • checked the policies (Score:4, Informative)

    by herrvinny ( 698679 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @06:32PM (#7118638)
    I checked the legal garbage at (http://www.olm.net/standardpolicies.html) and there doesn't seem to be any provision about OLM.net keeping domain name rights. Hit them with a complaint, and file complaints with the Better Business Bureau, etc. By the way, since your friend's site seems to be /.'ed, the Service Agreement here (http://www.olm.net/sla.html) says your friend is due some refund because his site is down....
    • As much as a refund would be nice, the site was down before it got linked to on slashdot, I think the ISP took it down when Dan cancelled his hosting. But they kept the domain name. =P
  • Nowadays, it's really easy (and cheap) to buy a domain, but a lot of customers prefer to let the ISP/hosting company do this for them. Back in the day when there was a single registrar for .com, .net, etc, and the procedure involved complicated e-mail forms this was understandable. But today, buying a domain is as easy as buying a book on Amazon.

    If, however, you insist on having your ISP do this, make sure that you are at least one of the listed contacts and, if the admin is done via a web form, make sur
  • It's not clear from the article exactly what your friend's plight is:
    • Did he try to change his DNS servers and was denied?

      That's obnoxious. Your friend should transfer the domain to another registrar with less obnoxious policies. Alternately,
    • Did he try to do a registrar transfer and was denied?

      He should check his account to see if his domain is "locked". Allegedly, registrars allow customers to lock their domains so as to prevent unauthorized/"accidental" transfers to other registrars. I say allege
    • Register.com is the worst ever. They have no security practices or policy to speak of, and have been known to just hand a domain over to somebody who claims they are the rightful owner if it seems right to them. Yes, I shit you not.

      Use domainmonger.com for important domains. I've been using them for several years now, they will always get on the phone and resolve problems if need be, and their support and reliability are fabulous. They will never bend over and hand a domain over without a full ICANN d

    • At least three of the registrars I have dealt with (register.com, cheap-domainregistration.com, netsol.com) have shady domain locking practices. For my money, I've had positive experiences with GoDaddy Software.

      i've used godaddy for several years now. mostly good experiences. their "lock" system didn't work right when they first implemented it and the almost obsessive compulsive urge to stick "buy this too" ads in the process of registering a domain is the bad bits. but in their defense, a quick email
  • Best practice is to buy it yourself from a place like GoDaddy, then just set up your DNS. Its not rocket-science. But the details are always in the fine print. My last hosting provider stated outright that they would transfer for only the cost of the transfer fee, if one is charged. And, BTW, despite being in the US or not, domains are only legal property if the registrar makes it. Check out the fine print for the .ws registry one day - website.ws - they operate in the US and state that you are leasing the
  • " And for the philosophers, how do these hosts expect to maintain a good reputation when they engage in such unscrupulous business practices?""

    Reputation doesnt matter for most of them. All they need is to gain an equal or more amount of customers a month than they lose and theyre making money.

    Most of the hosting companies out there just want to make money, they don't care about whats right. Most are just paper engineers that want to make aquick buck and end up bugging me for the most simple stuff.

    I've h

  • The Register [theregister.co.uk] reports that domains are like property.

    IF you own the name you own it like property (in the USA). Whose name is on the records?

    If not your friends then look at the registration advertisements and agreements and see who was supposed to own the name he paid for, maybe fraud took place at registration

    Sam

  • ...by getting the site slashdotted.
    • If the domain was pointing at the new provider, which is a server I own, there wouldn't be a problem, and I would keep the link as far away from Slashdot as possible. =D But I figure, hey, the link still points at their server, let's have a bit of fun. And get some interesting IANAL insights at the same time.
  • It's not difficult. You hire a lawyer. You could call the cops, but they don't really focus on who owns what subdomain on the Internet.

    Get thee to a barrister's office, my friend.

  • I'd say it depends on their terms at the time you were with them. If they're violating it, it's a simple breach of contract. If they keep the rights to the name in the ToS, it's more involved. I'm no lawyer, but I see 2 ways out then:
    - the ICANN/WIPO route
    - register the trademark and sue for trademark infringement in a US court*
    *this might work even if it's not registered, but I'm not positive. I say definitely consult a lawyer on this one!
    • Option 3 is just wait.

      They will probably not bother to renew it when it expires. It all depends on whether someone else will get hold of it, and whether you can be bothered waiting until it expires.

  • Related Situation (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nlh ( 80031 ) on Thursday October 02, 2003 @11:07PM (#7120637) Homepage
    I was involved in a somewhat related situation. Here's what happened:

    I used to work for a software company. I registered a domain for that software company through register.com and *MY* name was on the domain registration. I never actually transferred ownership to that software company, but leased the domain to them under a verbal arrangment. Their website was handled by XO and the domain registration was still handled by register.com

    Software company gets acquired, and the new owner doesn't want to use the domain. Instead, appoints some scumbag to try to auction it off. Only problem, of course, is that the domain is still owned by me, and it was never theirs to sell.

    Scumbag decides he wants control of the domain and sends a threatening lawyer-writ letter to both XO and register.com. XO AND register.com decide that the whole UDRP thing is just too complicated and simply lock me out of the website, my POP account, my register.com domain management account, and everything else related to that domain. Unbelievable. Take my credit card off the account, basically pretened that I don't exist anymore -- EVEN THOUGH my name was on the account, I was paying for the hosting, paid for registration, etc. I called, yelled, screamed, etc. Neither company cared...they just caved to the most scary-sounding letter and "wanted to avoid trouble". Scumbag thought he won.

    So what did I do? Transferred the domain to new registrar (domainmonger.com -- very cool guys who actually respect the UDRP). Luckily, the automated register.com system let that happen, and all of a sudden, the domain was back in my (rightful) hands. Lots of people got pissed off when all of a sudden they realized that many lawyerletters had changed hands (and money was spent) and they had nothing to show for it. Tried the same approach with domainmonger, and got a simple "please refer to the UDRP if you wish to dispute ownership of this domain" right back in their faces. Upon realizing that a dispute takes time and money, they quietly shut up and went away.

    • I used to work for a software company. I registered a domain for that software company through register.com and *MY* name was on the domain registration. I never actually transferred ownership to that software company, but leased the domain to them under a verbal arrangment.

      What an amazingly bad idea. Why in the world would a company let someone else own the domain name that they use? Why as an employee did you allow your employer to enter such a bad deal? Why did you only go with a verbal agreement?

  • I run a Linux Virtual Private Server Hosting [rimuhosting.com] company.

    I've been considering providing a domain name service. But I think its in people best interests to decouple their domain name from their hosting provider. Why?

    You can probably get the domain cheaper from a domain name specialist. GoDaddy and the like.

    Places like ZoneEdit [zoneedit.com] offer an unbeatable, easy to use, reliable and free DNS service. Or you can just to it yourself on your VPS [rimuhosting.com]. You have root right?

    If you need to move hosts then there is no th

  • I am the owner of OmegaSphere [omegasphere.net], a web hosting company (among other things). We frequently get customers who wish to switch to us and realize that they don't actually have their name on the records of the registration -- its shocking the number of web hosting companies that put their own names on the registration as a means of holding their customers hostage. Its not good for the customers, and its not good for the reputation of the industry.

    To a large extent its a problem that can only be solved through e
  • if you didn't read the contract which tells you whether the domain name is yours or just rented, then just learn and move on

    when you do things for the first time , learn to ask the important questions and don't assume.

    before you leave the old host, put a message on them forwarding users to the new domain name, and a copy of your account on what is happening. the old host is only going to hold on to the domain for as long as it seems useful

  • Warning: The real information is down at level 1 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bons ( 119581 ) on Friday October 03, 2003 @05:50AM (#7122203) Homepage Journal
    If you surf down to Score:1 (or visit http://slashdot.org/~sahonen and surf his replies ) you'll find the following:

    "Dan Cervantes is the owner of the Big Boy Drum company. The problem is that the ISP won't let him transfer the DNS to the server he wants to move his web site to, actually a web host I run. No, I won't plug it, 'cause we're near our bandwidth limit already."

    Since when has a ISP had any control over DNS changes? Why even talk to them about it? Go directly to http://www.corenic.org/ and move the damn thing yourself.

    "As much as a refund would be nice, the site was down before it got linked to on slashdot, I think the ISP took it down when Dan cancelled his hosting. But they kept the domain name."

    They don't have the domain name. Whois clearly says that Dan does. It sounds to me that you simply don't understand the difference between an ISP and a DNS.
    • From the CORE web site:

      "Changes to CORE domain names must be executed through the CORE member which is associated with the domain name."

      In this case, the CORE member is olm.net, the ISP in question. I DO know the difference between an ISP and a DNS, thank you very much, the whole point of the article in the first place was that the ISP and DNS record keeper in this case were the same company.

      We're gonna try to initiate a registrar transfer, but OLM can reject the transfer, and I have an odd feeling t
      • We're gonna try to initiate a registrar transfer, but OLM can reject the transfer, and I have an odd feeling they will.

        Years ago I transferred a domain in which I was listed as the registrant and admin but the registrar was the tech contact. An email was sent to me and to my registrar since those were the contacts on the domain. I approved the transfer and the registrar refused it but since I was listed as the registrant the transfer went through, so I don't think there's anything they can do to prevent
  • 1. Copyright of all material on the site remains with the author.
    2. No Electronic Theft Act and DMCA both could apply.
    3. Attack "boilerplate" contract terms as non-bargained for contracts of adheasion.
    4. Quantum Meruit (for what it's worth); a method of retaining your work product.
    5. Promissory Estoppel: We HOST YOUR DOMAIN does not mean we host our domain that YOU BUILT.

    Three of these actions can be brought in courts of limited jurisdiction (NOT SMALL CLAIMS), and they can be very quickly decided - but yo
  • I used to resell hosting to clients and we would register their domains for them and point them at the webhosting servers that we were resellers for. About 79% of those domains we registered in our own names simply to make life easier on ourselves when it came time to pay the bills or make changes. Many of the customers we did this for had so little understanding of what was going on with dns vs hosting and the facts of owning a domain that it was just much simpler to do it this way.

    However whenever a clie
  • 1) I provide a small number of resold websites for clients--in other words, I don't want to host sites for the general public. Using the registrar provided by the people I lease the space from has been a problem from the outset. I can register my end-user as the owner-of record for a domain name, but the people upstream from me are the only ones who can alter the record. Thank God they're honest, but accidents (mostly delays) have occurred.

    2) If I had it to do over again, I'd provide this as a service for
  • Hello, My name is Chris, Sales Manager at olm.net. I am not quite sure what you are refering to. You are free to move your domain to another host at any time. You have an account with our service, that you are free to log into, and make any changes to the DNS you wish. The whois info lists the information that is input to the the orderform by the customer. It is automatic, we do not change anything on that record. Please call us toll free at 800-741-6813 and ask for the Nameregistrars department. We will
  • Please forgive me, as my opinion on this matter is bias, as I am the sponsoring registrar of this domain. Here are some useful links that will help to answer many questions that you may have about any domain under the Core Umbrella: Whois lookup: http://allwhois.com/ ( It has a annoying pop up, but it will do the job.) This link will give you a status on domains under internic. http://reports.internic.net/cgi/whois? In this case: Domain Name: BIGBOYDRUMS.COM Registrar: CORE INTERNET COUNCIL O

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