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The Internet Science

Finding Airfoil Data For Amateur Projects? 71

Posted by Cliff from the digging-for-the-data dept.
An anonymous reader asks: "I am an aerospace engineering student who is engaged in an amateur project. A major hurdle I am having is finding modern airfoil data which can be used for a non-profit project. As most aerospace engineers know, just about all modern airfoil data are guarded industry secrets, so building an amateur project that requires precise airfoil data is difficult, because of the lack of available modern information. There is plenty of dated airfoil data from the 1960s or earlier, but my project requires access to modern data. Note that I do not have access to a wind tunnel to procure this data on my own. Where would one find free modern airfoil data for use in an amateur project?"
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Finding Airfoil Data For Amateur Projects? More

Finding Airfoil Data For Amateur Projects?

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  • Maybe if you ask your manager nicely you will be able to take some old data home to play with it in the context of yoru project?

    Paul B.

  • Uhh? (Score:2, Funny)

    by arrow ( 9545 )
    Could someone explain exactly what airfoil data is? I can conjure up some ideas, but IANAE.

    • Re:Uhh? (Score:4, Funny)

      by stinkyelf ( 558533 ) on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @09:36PM (#7624420) Homepage
      have you flown on a plane? he's after some data about those big long things sticking out the sides of it.

    • Re:Uhh? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Zeriel ( 670422 )
      "Airfoil data" in this context is a summary of performance data over various airspeeds for a given wing cross-sectional shape. There are endless books of these in hard-copy, and they're absolutely critical if you want to design an airframe without having access to a wind tunnel or extensive prototyping facilities.

  • XFoil (Score:5, Informative)

    by slacy ( 605407 ) on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @09:34PM (#7624408) Homepage
    There's a great GPL'd program out there called XFoil [mit.edu] that contains a large database of standard airfoils, including several "flat bottomed" foils, that are easy to construct from balsa.

    I've used these before in some simple hobby projects (that never actually got finished)
    • Strictly speaking, XFoil is not under GPL. The webpage lists additional requirements, such as the requirement to open code to any port of the software, regardless of whether the modified code is distributed. Also, the users are required to accept those conditions in order to be allowed to download the software. Doesn't look like GPL to me, even it says GPL.
    • Sure CFD doesn't use wind tunnel data to get performance characteristics, but the first principles approach used compairs very favorably to data that is available. Try Fluent [fluent.com] or CFX [aeat.com] if you can get your hands on them, they are pretty easy to use, esp for 2D sections...

      Disclamer: I am a former CFD developer turned turbine airfoil designer at a major jet engine company, so I tend to be a bigger fan of CFD than most people...

      That said, we depend on CFD very heavily, we often skip rigs, and go straight to t

  • Ask the experts (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rick the Red ( 307103 ) <Rick.The.Red@nOsPaM.gmail.com> on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @09:41PM (#7624461) Journal
    NASA [nasa.gov]

  • Coordinate Data and other stuff. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Skyfire ( 43587 ) on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @09:45PM (#7624484) Homepage
    Here's [uiuc.edu] a pretty good site with coordinate data. I used it for a Catia model once. If you want data on the performance of the airfoil as well, such as polar curves, here [nasg.com] is another site. Anyways, one thing to take note of is that not all modern airplanes use modern airfoils. For example, the Gulfstream GIV uses a modified NACA airfoil.

  • Sailplanes (Score:5, Informative)

    by littlerubberfeet ( 453565 ) on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @10:05PM (#7624616)
    Sailplanes are a good place to start. Get a copy of "Fundamentals of Sailplane Design" by Fred Thomas, printed by the college park press in MD. ISBN: 0966955307. It has a bunch of equations you are probably sick of (Stokes anyone?) and wing profiles and data for some gliders, including the Eta Uberglider.

    If L/D is all you need, it should be easy, though there are some other numbers in the book that are probably useful. Good luck! Also, it never hurts to ask...Have you tried the military? Sometimes they give up random tidbits of data without a FOIA request.
  • hmm try googling xplane. the end.

  • Classic is the best (Score:5, Informative)

    by Murrow ( 144634 ) on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @10:41PM (#7624841)
    The book that I always pull off my shelf is the classic "Theory of Wing Sections" by Abbott and von Doenhoff (ISBN: 0486605868). It's a compilation of NACA data (NACA is NASA's predicessor) and the most comprehensive reference on the subject that I know of. Amazon has a new copy for $14.

    I'm not sure why modern data would be a must for any non trans/supersonic vehicle (and some supersonic aircraft still use the classic NACA 4-digit airfoils).
    • I'm not sure why modern data would be a must for any non trans/supersonic vehicle...

      Seconded. The request for "precision data" makes me wonder, too. The NACA figures are plenty precise and comprehensive...exhaustively, headache-inducingly so. Since the submitter hasn't told us anything about his project, aside from the fact that it seems to involve aerodynamics, we're all whistling in the dark, anyway.

      So, anonymous reader: What flight regime? What neighborhood are we talking about for aspect ratio?
      • And how about a sense of scale, or of the method of construction? These factors will limit your ability to generate the desired airfoil shape with a high degree of accuracy. In that case, you may want to trade off on high-performance for high tolerance of irregularities.
    • Theory of Wing Sections is the best book ever! Unfortunately, where I went to school, they failed to mention it, probably to keep it a secret so we'd buy the $80 and $90 dollar books for the sophomore and junior-level courses, not realizing until the capstone course senior year, that Abbott and von Doenhoff explain much of it better in a $15 book. It is indeed absolutely indispensable. Did I mention that it's wonderful?

      Xfoil is pretty decent, too, but i never found it significantly more convenient than

  • Previous Discussion on this? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Zapper ( 68283 ) on Wednesday December 03, 2003 @10:57PM (#7624938) Homepage Journal
    This discussion [slashdot.org] (Free Hydro/Aero-Dynamic Software Simulators?) has some [maybe] useful links in it.

  • How important? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mduell ( 72367 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @12:33AM (#7625420)
    If you're close enough to come to Prescott, AZ I have a feeling my university (Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University) would let you peruse our hundreds of volumes of data that NASA has given us (some of it on airfoils).
  • What would keep you from going to an airfield with a tape measure and an inclinometer to take some measurements. Surely these measurements could be translated into formulae to make an airfoil model.

    • Re:ruler, inclinometer (Score:3, Insightful)

      by torpor ( 458 )
      Yeah... that would've been neat in 1902, maybe.

      Airfoil follows fairly well-known laws of aerodynamics; I would wager that any modern use of airfoil data is an order of magnitude (time) more extensive in its demand for details...

      What he wants is data - modern data - which means probably *lots* of data for modelling, analysis, on a very accurate scale.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Totally agree (Score:4, Informative)

    by rudog ( 98586 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @04:20AM (#7626573) Homepage
    I have encountered the same lack of current information and airfoil performance. I am a garage-engineer that produces experimental r/c aircraft somewhat regularly.

    I have found several gpl/shareware programs that do help design airfoils and predict their usability, but on a small scale for r/c. And the properties obviously change for real-world aircraft.

    here are some links that may help though:

    http://www.pagendarm.de/trapp/programming/java/p ro files/NACA4.html

    http://raphael.mit.edu/xfoil/

    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Harold_ Gi nsberg/

    http://www.compufoil.com

    http://www.profili2.com

    http://www.ozemail.com.au/~malhardy/

    These are applications that I have used with mixed success. And remember - most of these are for model aircraft so YMMV.

    Also just google, there are lots of others out there who have run into the same situation and started the own projects to make data available.

  • He's using the American spelling (Score:5, Funny)

    by Andy_R ( 114137 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @05:15AM (#7626752) Homepage Journal
    Until I googled, I had no idea what an 'airfoil' was, the word isn't in my English dictionary here in England.

    Turns out he's just asking about Aerofoils but it's one of those words that the Americans spell wrong, like 'color' and 'potatoe'.

    I suggest he tries all the places he already looked, but use the spelling the rest of the world uses.

  • It is very interesting that you call yourself an Aero Eng student, but haven't mentioned anything about the NACA series of aerofoils (or maybe that is what you are calling 1960s or earlier). Why modern aerofoil data is required, as opposed to these foils is not known. If you are on the cutting edge of design, then you should have ready access to a wind tunnel for testing. If you don't, then you should be able to convince your instructors to let you carry out a project to derive appropriate NACA data for

  • The BBC's car review site has some erm, 'interesting' examples of amateur aerodynamic modifications:

    http://www.topgear.com/content/fun_stuff/carbage /0 /

  • TetrUSS is a suite of computer programs used for fluid dynamics and aerodynamics analysis and design. The TetrUSS system was developed at NASA Langley Research Center during the 1990s to bring the state-of-the-art in computational fluid dynamics (CFD) to a higher level of utility, and is geared towards novices and experts alike.

    Not sure if it is what you are looking for, but works both on PC and Mac OS X

    http://aaac.larc.nasa.gov/tsab/tetruss/mac/

  • Mark Drela (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TheLocustNMI ( 159898 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:11PM (#7630552) Homepage
    Dr. Mark Drela @ MIT is a great resource for these things. He is also an RC Sailplane enthusiast, so that is where I know him from. He is one of the most knowledgeable, helpful guys around, and makes all of his airfoils available to the public.

    http://raphael.mit.edu/DRELA.bio.html
    http://ww w.monkeytumble.com/dnc/supergee.htm
  • Remember that big black bird that does Mach 3 at 80,000 ft (SR-71)? 1950's technology and still the fastest/highest jet ever. Granted, more modern data would be nice, but you can do a lot with 1960's aerospace tech.

    It's too bad knowledge has been replaced with secrets. Think what we could do if everyone shared the knowledge. Instead we obsess about hiding our little sliver of information from the rest of the world and charging as much as anyone will pay to have a peek at it (after they sign a NDA of course

  • First ... (Score:1, Funny)

    by wgnorm ( 163220 )

    You get yourself 120 laser pointers...
  • Xfoil is good and airfoil data and geometry is easily gotten from nasg.com. You'll probably want to look at it in English. Abbot and Von Doenhoff is pretty useful, too. --Fellow ASE student

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