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Micro ATX and Linux? 79

Posted by Cliff from the you-can-only-be-this-tall... dept.
Chasuk asks: "I work at a large computer retailer in a college town, and I've finally convinced the powers-that-be to sell PCs with Linux pre-installed. The catch is, it will only be installed on Micro ATX machines, which require half-height everything, and we can't find a source of half-height Linux compatible PCI modems. Even those universal, generic half-height replacement hangers/brackets would be acceptable, but I can't find those, either. Can anyone on Slashdot help? "
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Micro ATX and Linux? More

Micro ATX and Linux?

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  • External modems, why modems? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by n1ywb ( 555767 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:39PM (#8398171) Homepage Journal
    uh, maybe use external modems? what the hell do they need modems for on a college campus anyway?

  • Good luck finding cheap internal modems (Score:5, Informative)

    by Craig Maloney ( 1104 ) * on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:40PM (#8398192) Homepage
    Just on a whim I did some searching to find an internal PCI modem for my PC. What I saw was rather dismaying. Very few PCI modems aren't Winmodems nowadays, and the ones that aren't are upwards of $50. Not the kind of price you want to add to a pre-built machine.

    • Re:Good luck finding cheap internal modems (Score:5, Informative)

      by dasunt ( 249686 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @01:02PM (#8398469)

      Very few PCI modems aren't Winmodems nowadays, and the ones that aren't are upwards of $50. Not the kind of price you want to add to a pre-built machine.

      Although there are some good Winmodems, my general experience is that the $25 winmodem tends to experience more network problems -- including more unexpected dropped connections and lower speed.

      The "expensive" $50 hardware modem is better built, more reliable, and is compatible with almost any OS that supports a dialup connection.

      You get what you pay for...

    • 'Expensive' $50 modems? You never bought a SmartModem, the original AppleModem, or a CourierHST back in 1989.

    • When I worked for an ISP [4+ years ago], we saw two major types of winmodems.

      The Lucent ones, which lacked flash, relied upon the system for its initial setup information. The Rockwell ones, relied on the system for just about everything, and would drive the load up on your system.

      Of course, there were some growing pains with the Lucent ones, but after a few revisions, the Lucent LTWinmodems didn't suck... At least for windows users. And there are some Linux drives out there for them. The Rockwell HCF

  • Two Words (Score:5, Funny)

    by iammrjvo ( 597745 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:41PM (#8398202) Homepage Journal
    Band Saw

  • options (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Apreche ( 239272 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:43PM (#8398245) Homepage Journal
    external USB modems?

    Also I once saw a thing that converts a PCI slot on a desktop machine into a PCMCIA slot. You could get a half-height one of those and put a laptop modem in it.

    Or just use micro-atx motherboards that have builtin modems.

    • The problem is that you once saw the thing. I once saw one, too. It attached to ISA slots. I passed it up because I wanted one that used PCI. I've been searching for one ever since.

      I think they've disappeared, though there's a rumor that you can extract the wireless card from some desktop wi-fi cards and re-use the adapter.

      Also, it's been my experience that most wireless modems are -not- winmodems, but that may be changing.

    • external USB modems? ...
      Or just use micro-atx motherboards that have builtin modems.

      Wouldn't both mainly be winmodems necessarily? I honestly don't know, but I'm imagining a dongle in the case of a USB modem, which wouldn't leave room for hardware, and a motherboard-mounted one makes me think of my laptop, and most recent laptops, which use winmodems -- presumably for space and heat dissipation reasons (a dsp is thinner with more surface area than most modem components, so I'm assuming here). Also, an

  • Micro ATX doesn't always require half-height PCI (Score:5, Informative)

    by questionlp ( 58365 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:45PM (#8398269) Homepage
    Micro ATX does not require everything to be half-height. That may be the case (pun not intended) with some Mini-ITX cases, but there are quite a few Micro ATX small tower cases that support full-height, half-length PCI and AGP cards, smaller ATX power supplies and standard drives (be it 5.25" or 3.5").

    The main difference between standard ATX and Micro ATX is the "length" of the board, which determines the number of slots, usually PCI. ATX gives you a maximum of 7 slots to occupy (be it 0-1 AGP + 1-6 PCI) where as Micro ATX can have at most 3 slots to occupy. Check out formfactors.org [formfactors.org] for more information.
    • Micro ATX does not require everything to be half-height. That may be the case (pun not intended) with some Mini-ITX cases, but there are quite a few Micro ATX small tower cases that support full-height, half-length PCI and AGP cards, smaller ATX power supplies and standard drives (be it 5.25" or 3.5").

      Heck, my Coolermaster 620 case takes a micro-ATX motherboard but has 4 regular full height slots in the back. Of course, it's also the size of a full 4U size desktop case so I'm not sure why it only takes

  • Maybe you should rethink it then. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by FesterDaFelcher ( 651853 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:47PM (#8398298)
    Why does it have to be installed on Micro ATX? I personally dont see you selling a lot of these, since (even if you dont want to hear this) the average Joe User is not going to be very receptive to a machine with Linux pre-installed. Make a cheap EXPANDABLE machine with Linux pre-installed, and you are going to appeal to a much larger base of users.
    • Why does it have to be installed on Micro ATX? I personally dont see you selling a lot of these, since (even if you dont want to hear this) the average Joe User is not going to be very receptive to a machine with Linux pre-installed.

      Put them in those Shuttle cube style cases, forget the modem (if they need a modem they can go buy a USB one) and then do a full install of some friendly Linux setup. The KDE desktop is very nice with the latest release.. I've even switched to it from Gnome. Other than pla

    • 1. It is small.
      2. It is cheaper that rackmount.
    • Most adult Joe Users won't even notice the difference in other terms than stability and customizability. Believe me, I have done a Linux installation on almost every windows luser who comes to me and complains that their computer (windows) is broken and needs some repairing. : )
      They won't complain as long as they have a DE (usually KDE or Gnome), some card games, a web browser (Mozilla Firebird) and email app (kmail).. And of course OpenOffice and some image viewers so they can open up email attachments.
      Ma

  • External serial... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Paladin128 ( 203968 ) <aaron@traa[ ]rg ['s.o' in gap]> on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:56PM (#8398403) Homepage
    Seriously, external serial modems are ALWAYS Linux compatible, easier to deal with, and usually of high quality.

  • Come on... (Score:5, Funny)

    by vasqzr ( 619165 ) <`vasqzr' `at' `netscape.net'> on Thursday February 26, 2004 @12:56PM (#8398405)

    I work at a large computer retailer in a college town, and I've finally convinced the powers-that-be to sell PCs with Linux pre-installed. The catch is, it will only be installed on Micro ATX machines, which require half-height everything, and we can't find a source of half-height Linux compatible PCI modems.

    This sounds like a Dilbert comic. Marketing getting way ahead of research/development.

    On a related note, I've convinced my local pizza joint to buy pizza boxes from me that keep the pie warm. I just have to invent it.

    • I suspect the marketing element is they cna now sell computers at $50 less than their competitors with no software pre installed. Students then buy the box, go home and install the latest superduper everything from that CD of stuff their classmate downloaded.
      • From Debian. Of course. Or maybe one of the BSDs?

        Maybe they want a box where they know all the hardware supports Linux without doing all the research.

        I know IHBT.
    • You know those little hand warmers... expose them to air and they heat up to about 120F. If you buy them in bulk, or make your own i'm sure it's relatively cheap. Just put an assload (tm) of them in some kind of chamber under the pie. Have some kind of cellophane that when removed, heats up the carbon stuff, and you have a hot piebox!

      -Tim

  • Work from the other angle... (Score:5, Informative)

    by bolix ( 201977 ) <bolixNO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Thursday February 26, 2004 @01:13PM (#8398586) Homepage Journal
    Goto http://linmodems.org/ and find a "Winmodem" that meets your specs.

  • answer at linux modem compatibility knowledge base (Score:5, Informative)

    by obtuse ( 79208 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @01:16PM (#8398610) Journal
    at http://start.at/modem lists severak Taicom low profile PCI modems as "Winmodem chipset with Linux driver that must be purchased. "

    There are lots of real PCMCIA modems too, so the PCMCIA adapter would work too.

  • How can you tell the difference? (Score:3, Informative)

    by bellings ( 137948 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @01:31PM (#8398814)
    You've certainly already hit this: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=half+height+in ternal+modem [google.com].

    The second modem that comes up claims to have a 16550/A compatible UART. Doesn't that mean it's not a Win Modem? I'm afraid I haven't used a modem in a long, long time, though -- I don't have a clue how you tell the difference between a WinModem and one with a built-in serial port.

    Actually, aren't there Linux drivers for the more popular WinModems yet? Maybe unlike nVidia graphic cards, there isn't much geek market for low priced linux modems. Maybe the modem manufacturers know something you don't -- maybe anyone who uses Linux is going to be willing to pay extra for a decent external modem anyhow, since in general a Linux machine generally ends up costing more than a Windows machine anyhow.

  • More Important... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Whatchamacallit ( 21721 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @02:16PM (#8399514) Homepage
    It's more important to have an option of buying a box without any operating system pre-loaded and offer a discount to do so. i.e.

    - Windows XP Home
    - Windows XP Pro
    - Linux (RedHat Whatever)
    - None -- THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!!!

    I doubt many average computer users would know what to do with Linux if they got it. I also doubt many of those who want it want it preloaded with whatever distribution you decide to load.

    Offer some REAL modems that don't require software to run. i.e. a modem with an actual chip that does the work!

    The only reason WinModems are successful is because they work (on Windows) and they cost slightly less. This is no big deal for a few machines, but it really adds up when you sell hundreds of thousands as DELL does monthly.

    With broadband, modems are becoming more and more obsolete anyway. Sure there are many who still use them but not nearly as many as there once were. I personally haven't used a modem in years... I honestly haven't needed to.

    What is really driving Broadband among those who would not have used it before is VPN and companies who are allowing their employee's to VPN into the network. I would say that most of the corporate users who don't have a computer at home except for their work laptop, are actually buying cable and DSL connections just so they can work at home.

    It was just rolled out where I work recently, and there have been hundreds of users all getting signed up for broadband services. More and more they hear by word of mouth from coworkers on how great it is and they call us to get it setup. Most of them don't own a personal computer, they use only their work computer. Those that do own computers have very old computers. Few have up-to-date computers and few have broadband but tell them they can work at home just about as fast as it is in the office (faster for some WAN users) and they buy it on the spot!

    Add wireless into the mix, i.e. they can work on a comfortable couch without wires and keep a broadband connection to work going and they freak out and want to do it right away!

    Corporate America will soon be accelerating Work At Home as soon as the numbers of employee's able to do it reaches critical mass. They can save a fortune on office space. Heck, I could be doing my job from home if they would just get me a VoIP phone that connects to the company PBX.
    • I doubt many average computer users would know what to do with Linux if they got it. I also doubt many of those who want it want it preloaded with whatever distribution you decide to load.

      The average computer user wants an "Intarweb Appliance" they can plug in and use without having to install an OS. As long as everything works they won't know or care what goes on under the hood. Its only power users that will buy a system sans OS due to the amount of useless crap OEMs install on their retail images.
      • Exactly, a fiar number of them will barely notice the difference.

        Once they ahve figured out how to start up their web browser, mail client and office suite they have learnt to use the software.

    • It's more important to have an option of buying a box without any operating system pre-loaded and offer a discount to do so.

      I thought that the publisher of a major proprietary PC operating system refused to sell OEM licenses to PC vendors that shipped machines without any OS, for the purported purpose of preventing widespread crime on the high seas. Dell worked around this by offering FreeDOS, a very minimalistic Free operating system.

      With broadband, modems are becoming more and more obsolete anyway

  • idot.com (Score:3, Informative)

    by josepha48 ( 13953 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @05:31PM (#8401906) Journal
    go there! NOW.. dont wait

    NO seriously, they have several mini itx motherboards, cases, sound cards, etc, and usually if you buy a harddrive and some other components, you can get a copy of Lindows / Lin---s included for free. I am looking into this to save some space on my desktop. In fact here is one example http://www.idotpc.com/TheStore/Desktop/806Spec.asp ?Product.id=806&Cate.id=19

    I have not tried them personally though.

  • Title says it all ;)
  • why not external?

    Yes, it's a bit uglier (depending on your aesthetics ... I like more LEDs visible at night, so there are tradeoffs), but an external can often be had cheaper than internal (hardware) modems.

    If you're in the U.S.: $50 gets you a unlabeled / house-brand CompUSA serial external modem, which works fine with Linux. And by mail-order, I've seen Elsa external modems which I know to work fine with Linux from friends who have and use them at around $30.

    I dunno wholesale prices on modems, but I be

    • And if you *do*, then you've taken up a precious PCI slot

      Which would have to be filled with a serial port card in the newer so-called "legacy free" machines. So are there any half-height PCI serial port cards? Or do the free operating systems' PPP stacks work with serial-to-USB adapters? And what about the extra wall wart that an external modem needs for its power?

      • then my advice isn't worth much :)

        However, a lot of newish micromachines still have serial ports, like the (sorry, brand forgotten) Mini-ITX shoebox style one next to me. The serial port refuses to die peacefully!

        I have heard that USB Serial adapters work well for other people in connecting to various devices, dunno about modems specifically though, having never done this.

        With no serial port, there's at least one other situation where an external serial modem might still be a good idea -- if you hook a
  • Most people seem to be suggesting going this route. I would throw in a few extra benefits.

    1. Better diagnostics of any problems, with a nice, meaningful array of LEDs, which you get on most excternal modems.

    2. Lower risk of destruction of the PC due to lightning-induced transients. The high-current pulses are likely to remain outside the PC casing and not be coupled to signal tracks on the motherboard. An internal modem invariably lets a lot of energy loose inside the case, it has to go somewhere (as wel

    • ... USB modems cause excessive CPU "overhead"? What do you have, a processor run by two hamsters in a wheel? Get with it man! I've used USB modems, and they're just a USB serial port adapter in disguise with a modem attached. Ohh, yeah, this 56k connection is really stressing my USB bus!

      Why don't you show us how USB modems cause excessive CPU "overhead"?
  • I've just shipped an embedded product based around Linux where we had exactly this problem. In the process of development I've tested a lot of winmodems under Linux, our main problem has been consistency of supply in Europe. The really good drivers are the open source Lucent driver, the SmartLink driver and Linuxant's closed source Conexant driver. It pains me to say it, but our best available choice was to license the driver from Linuxant. Even factoring in the cost of the driver, the modems were still che
  • Try Tigerdirect.com $20
  • Seriously this should be an external option. It is useless for more and more people - a WiFi card may be a much better idea as standard equipment.

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