User Interface and Carpal Tunnel - Tech Solutions? 120
the_REAL_sam asks: "I've been using computers since the apple 2+. I've played many games, and worked in silicon valley. I can't even guess how many hours I've logged at a keyboard. Now I'm 32 years old, and my hands sometimes shake and get numb after using a keyboard/mouse for too long. So I'm asking Slashdot what, if any, affordable technology exists to circumvent the traditional (potentially RSI-inducing) means of human-computer interface."
Hand Shaking (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Hand Shaking (Score:2, Insightful)
Take up a hobby/sport where you perform different actions with your hands. I have been using computers fairly continuously since I had my Commodore 64, yet have never had any pain or numbness associated with RSI. I play golf, go bike riding, take photos and lots of other things.
Simple solution, get away from the computer for a bit each day and do something else (using a TV remote doesn't count either).
Re:Hand Shaking (Score:1)
What I do. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What I do. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What I do. (Score:3, Informative)
User interfaces (Score:1)
Re:User interfaces (Score:1)
Especially if you are like me and can only speak two languages - English with a NZ accent, and bad English with a NZ accent.
body! (Score:5, Informative)
Another book (Score:3, Interesting)
It's Not Carpal Tunnel Syndrome! RSI Theory & Therapy for Computer Professionals
Take up music? (Score:5, Interesting)
--
Evan
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Re:Take up music? (Score:2)
I don't play piano (not for many many years in a college class far far away)... possibly the "spider", "palm down" position is too similar to using a keyboard (putting the R in RSI)?
--
Evan
Re:Take up music? (Score:2, Informative)
My wrists start to hurt after a few hours of playing piano, but so far I haven't had any significant problems on computers. My symptoms usually occur in the evenings after I leave work.
I find it absolutely hysterical that my CTS developed within one year after I started using computers on a frequent
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Ehh, make that "instead of writing them."
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
So I sat down and thought, what instrument can I learn that doesn't use my hands?
The harmonica!
That was four years ago. I'm reasonably good now (good enough to play with the church band), but the instrument was much harder to learn than I thought it would be! They say it takes 9 years of practice to master. Others say you never really master it.
Re:Take up music? (Score:1)
Are you sure? Maybe I'm doing this all wrong. I'm probably at my computer a bit more than playing my guitar, but somehow my wrist still hurt. My right wrist is bugging me because of the mouse, and my left wrist is irritating me because of the guitar.
Right now I have a left w
Re:Take up music? (Score:1, Funny)
alternate stuff (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe some form of weightlifting would help you.
I never have any pains other than sore muscles, and I routinely log 12-14 hours daily on a computer. A big part of that is time spent in the gym. You don't have to be a bodybuilder, just exercise 3 or 4 times a week at some light to medium weights. Figure out what the maximum weights you can lift are, then do about 60-70% of that weight for 4 sets of 8 repititions. Recheck your maximum weights every couple months, and adjust accordingly.
It will make you feel better, and improve your concentration when you have to sit still and type all day. Also, the women like guys with a little muscle on them
Re:alternate stuff (Score:1)
How does sitting at a computer in the gym help?
Re:alternate stuff (Score:2)
I second this. And for those people who don't like going to the gym but do spend some time commuting: do some weightlifting in the car!
Seriously, I spend about 2.5 hours every day travelling. I have two small weights in my car and everytime I hit a traffic jam, I do some lifting. Keep it low, otherwise you'll get some blank looks... And ALWAYS KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD!
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
I prefer the mouse, but I turn up the acceleration to obscene levels. It has the same effect as a trackball of having only finger movements, but without annoying me. I you hate trackballs, but don't want to hurt your wrists, you should try it.
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
You can also try a very small mouse, the type you get for use with laptops. They allow to rest the heel of your hand on the desk and move them between pinkie and thumb so that you don't need to move your wrist or shoulder. Personally I find the huge things shaped to fit your hand and advertised as ergonomic to be anything but.
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2, Informative)
Mods and trolls, please forgive my spelling.
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
Sorry I didn't explain myself very clearly. If you take your hand and wrest the heel at the edge of a desk and allow your elbow to drop then you'll notice that your arm is in a comfortable position. Your elbow is at your side and there is no strain on your shoulder, also your wrist is bent slightly forward like the way we're supposed to type. With a very small mouse you can put your hand in the correct this position and control it with only your fingers. With larger mice I find either my wrist is bent ba
Use emacs for everything (Score:1)
of web surfing. I use emacs to edit files, compile, read news, read mail, debug (with gdb) and run shells. I even use the keyboard to switch between subwindows (c-x o). Since I started this system (and got a split keyboard---comfort keyboards are amazing) my wrist problems have more or less gone away.
When someone makes a web browser that has an emacs interface, I will use it. Aside from that, if it cannot be done in emacs, it is not worth doing.
dtg
Re:Use emacs for everything (Score:2)
Re:Use emacs for everything (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:1)
1. Traded in the stick-shift for an automatic.
2. Got her a smaller and lighter purse (less crap in it).
3. Went to a trackball.
4. Went to a split keyboard (Microsoft Natural).
I mentioned Pete Egoscue's book above. He suggests that the reason so many people have RSI's these days is because we are motion deprived; before the past 40-50 years life was harder- more manual. It kept our bodies in shape. Egoscue contends that we require food, clothing, shelter and motion to survive.
I can't dispute your clai
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
What about the stenographers and typists spending 8-10 hours a day on manual typewriters and electric typewriters? That was no small number 40-50 years ago.
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
Grab.
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:1)
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
As for keyboards, I DON'T recommend the Microsoft Natural keyboards. There's nothing natural about the position that they put your hands in. Personally, my ar
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
Now I have several of them. One for my home system, one for the office, and a spare for "whatever". I strongly recommend them.
You claim their is nothing natural about the position they put your hands in, but that is verifiably not true. The positioning that the MS Natural keyboard leads to is *much* more natural than what a regular keyboard forces you into.
Re:Lose the mouse, maybe get a split keyboard. (Score:2)
When I put my hands on a MS Natural keyboard, I find it pushes my elbows out, rolls my wrists up, and forces my wrists to curve up unnaturally. As an experiment, hold your arms out, and let your wrists drop down. Wiggle your fingers. No problem, right? Now push your wrists up and wiggle your fingers. You'll probably feel some tension in your forearms. Th
Not cheap, but... (Score:2)
Re:Not cheap, but... (Score:2)
The stuff I've tried that's kept my han
Re:Not cheap, but... (Score:2)
Re:Not cheap, but... (Score:2)
If you're really interested in wearable stuff, check out MIT's wearable computing lab [mit.edu] - they have reviews on various keyboards and other hardware. I wouldn't recommend buying the stuff to avoid RS
Get thee to a doctor (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Get thee to a doctor (Score:2)
Don't talk to a doctor. They can't really add to the solution. You'll read more information googling and asking slashdot than your doctor can tell you.
Besides, these problems (RSI, carpal tunnel) are highly personal, as well as the solution. For some people, exercise helps. For others, putting a halt to stress helps. But your doctor, he didn't spend a couple of hours thinking and browsing on your problem.
missing the point. (Score:4, Interesting)
Any user interface method will suffer from this in exactly the same way - if you spend too much time doing the same action, you will cause damage - tennis players and coal miners will tell you that they also suffer.
The only long term solution is to vary your actions. (I guess I'm saying you should tear yourself away from the computer for a few minutes each day, but I know that's asking a lot of some folk here
Quick Answer (Score:4, Informative)
Every hour or two and before you start in the morning, stop working and stretch your hands and arms. http://www.mydailyyoga.com/yoga/rsi.html
I had problems a few years ago with these types of symptoms, and after seeing a physiotherapist (and performing these types of exercise) for a while they went away.
Unfortunately, if you are experiencing numbness you may have damaged some of your nerves. I would recommend seeing a doctor/physiotherapist very soon or you could completely lose use of your hands.
Research, Devices, Variation, Breaks, Stretching (Score:1)
1. Do google searches on 3 types of wrist deviation.
2. Get keyboard that help with deviations. Kinesis Keyboard [kinesis-ergo.com]
3. Get multiple pointing devices [ergocube.com] like this [ergocube.com].
4. Switch among devices, using left and right hands.
5. Take a break to stretch every 20 minutes minimum.
6. Do a google search on stretches for CTS and wrists, arm, shoulder, back, chest.
Re:Tablet (Score:1)
The pen does sometimes cramp my hand, particularily if I try to hold it while typing instead of putting it down, but generally speaking I've found it much more comfortable in the long
Re:Tablet (Score:2)
Ergonomic basics (Score:5, Informative)
1) The computer screen should be directly in front of you, at eye level. Should be obvious, but quite a few people don't do it. If you are one of the dual-screen types (I expect there are a lot in the
2) Your knees should be at a 90 degree angle. This might mean a new chair.
3) Your forearms should be parallel to the ground when typing on the keyboard. This might mean a keyboard tray, which is a wise investment.
4) Your forearms should also be parallel to the ground when using the mouse. No putting it on the top of the desk.
5) If you read from documents while you are working, you should seriously consider a copy holder that puts it near eye level (many monitor stands have this feature, or you can get a model that puts the document next to the monitor).
6) Look for ergonomic equipment. For mice, I use a Humanscale mouse [humanscale.com], which forces my wrist to be straight when I use it. Trackballs are good for people as well. The split keyboards are very useful for some. You can actually get mice you can operate with your feet as well.
7) Learn to use the mouse with your opposite hand, and trade off.
8) Learn keyboard shortcuts.
I'm not a doctor, don't take this as medical advice, blah blah blah.
Re:Ergonomic basics (Score:1)
Get a kid (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Get a kid (Score:2)
Additionally, obtaining a kid usually takes about 9 months, so this won't offer immediate relief.
Make sure all the stations are different (Score:2)
Voice Software (Score:1)
Dvorak (Score:2)
Re:Dvorak (Score:1)
If you're not familiar with dvorak, it's an optimized layout that plac
RSIGuard (Score:1)
It thinks I have very low willpower and won't let me skip any breaks. Locks me out of the computer completely, keyboard doesn't work.
innovations definitely, but exercise as well (Score:2)
However, given the innovations and improvements in all fields, rather sooner than later we will have some new devices or mechanisms of input (there is talk already of speech-based input devices).
Howeve
Eye Watcher (Score:2, Interesting)
I really want something that watches where my eyes are focused as a pointing device.
Then if I tap my index finger against my thumb, it's a left click.
Second finger against my thumb, it's a right-click.
Index finger stroking the thumb, it's a wheelie scroll.
I understand that there are issues. Like that eyes get "jitters", but surely these problems can be overcome.
Then there's the keyboard - but don't get me started on that!
Re:Eye Watcher (Score:1)
Adding a little filtering introduces a small lag, but accuracy improves. I estimate that a desktop icon size area could be found on about
Of course the amount of lag that is acceptable is determined by what you are trying to do. For word processing moving the cur
Re:Eye Watcher (Score:1)
Re:Eye Watcher (Score:1)
FaceLAB is used primarily for creating logs of eye and head movement for later study for use by, for example, reaserchers into tiredness.
I was involved in a project to create a demo game that can be used to show off Seeing Machines' technology in real time at trade shows and the like.
Use Mozilla and keyboard-based navigation (Score:2)
You must constantly try to click on very small links. In order to do so, you first move the pointer near the zone you need to click, and then you unintentionnally stress all your muscles in order to "slow down" the pointer and put it to the exact target location. _This_ is exactly what brings RSIs.
If you have to work with browsers all day long, definitely use the Mozilla suite or Firefox. Instead of having to use the mouse, everyt
Variety of Motion (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:Variety of Motion (Score:1)
In any case, I try to keep the back of my hand even with my forearm so my wrists aren't bent, and I've never had trouble with the whole RSI thing. I think form is the most important aspect of prevention.
Suggestions That Have Helped Me (Score:2)
1. Try to have a variety of motion. I think the key part of "repetitive stress injury" that most people overlook is "repetitive". Think about it- human bodies are designed to be in motion as long as you're awake. But evolution has not designed our bodies to make the same, small, twitchy, repetitive motions over and over again for 8, 9, or 10 hours a day. So rather than trying to reduce the amount of motion your body and hands do, switch it up a bit-chang
Re:Suggestions That Have Helped Me (Score:1)
1. Changing positions isn't (I'm guessing) a necessarily bad idea... However, make sure you keep changing them, and don't do anything ridiculous... like put your feet in your chair. I think the problem most people have with thi
Fingerworks Touchstream (Score:1)
Evil Mice? (Score:1)
keyboard at least eight hours a day since 1983. I have always used
the mouse as little possible. For the past ten years or so I've
used a trackpad for the little mousing I do (mostly the occasional
copy (I paste via keyboard) and the times I have to access a web
site that can only be used with javascript active (and even there
I use the keyboard shortcuts in Mozilla/Firefox as often as not)).
Oh, and it's probably worth noting that I use only the *
Problem and maye a solution (Score:2)
You could soak your hands in warm-to-hot water. Ideally, the water should have a moderate sulpher content. But that doesn't prevent RSI, or answer your question about HCIs.
To build a human-computer interface (HCI) that doesn't pose a risk of RSI is a challange. A lightpen-driven GUI would probably help.
Affordable solutions (Score:1)
2. Mouse use
3. RSI alleviating device
4. Anything else
1. Software:
Various man machine interfaces are helpful for handicapped people. I'm not sure that these devices are the best approach for the rest of us. The way we interact with our computer is possibly most often due to the software design. Graphical systems definitely have their place, though they often place a disproportionate bias towards the use of a mouse, trackball, etc., where a simple key based interface might be both more appropriat
some remedies that worked for me (Score:2, Informative)
Get yourself to a doctor (Score:2, Interesting)
Just because you have wrist pain and numbness does NOT mean you have carpal tunnel syndrome. I have had similar symptoms to what you state but not due to carpal tunnel problems. Heck, excessive bending of the wrists while typing for extended periods can bring on pain and numbness. From what I have read, carpal tunnel syndrome really sucks. And what is required to treat it (often surgery) is not required to treat run of the mill really painful wrist pain.
For a start, on
Tips from Logitech (Score:2)
- Take frequent short breaks. Get up and walk around at least a couple of times every hour.
- Vary your tasks throughout the day.
- Keep your shoulders relaxed with your elbows at your sides. Position your keyboard and mouse so you don't have to reach.
- Adjust your chair and keyboard so your wrists are straight.
- Avoid resting your wrists on sharp edges. If you use a wrist or palm rest don't use
Raise your monitor (Score:2, Interesting)
Touchstream keyboard (Score:1)
I agree with other people that changing imput devices - mice, keyboards - would be a good idea. I run the touchstream and a conventional Qwerty in parallel. When running apps which use a lot of F keys or the numpad (which my favourite editor prefers), I need a conventional keyboard. Wne word-processing, I switc
The truth about "RSI"... (Score:1)
http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc [harvard.edu]
For more info, Google for: sarno tms
configure multiple machines differently. (Score:2)
I've found that switching to a laptop at home (which I actually use from my lap, not a desk), and a desktop at work has helped significantly.
This way, I'm getting my hand/wrists making two different sets of slightly different repetitive motions, rather than the same thing every time I'm in front of
Couple of things (Score:1)
1. kmousetool [mousetool.com] to click the mouse for me. Takes some getting used to but I can't live without it now.
2. Xwrits [freshmeat.net] to force me to take 5 minute breaks every half hour. Use the breaks to get up and stretch.
3. A good massage therapist.
Re: (Score:1)
Aikido stretching... (Score:3, Informative)
I've been computing since the early 80's (an Apple ][+) and mousing since 1986 (an Atari 1040ST). Somewhere around the early 90's I started having pains in my right wrist. I tried a wrist brace and supportive pads for my keyboard and mouse usage and they reduced the discomfort, but didn't eliminate it. What finally worked (and still works) for me is some wrist stretching exercises I learned for Aikido. There are some fairly clear descriptions here [aikido-world.com]. The most effective (for me at least) is the kotegaishi, with nikkyo a close second.
RSI - from experience (Score:1)
I've had a lot of trouble with RSI through the years, sometimes to the point I couldn't button a shirt. Here are some tips--
First, though, see a doctor! If you ignore it, you risk making symptoms permanent. Treatment will speed recovery time. Keep an open mind, too-- naturopathy and massage therapy have helped me more for this than the standard HMO treatment.
As for input devices, I've had a lot of luck with the Datahand Keyboard. It's a lot of money up front, and it has a very steep learning curve,
I'm going to get T&F'd for saying this... (Score:1)
Seriously, as someone who also has carpal tunnel... rearrange your life a bit. Different keyboard, mouse, chair height. See your doctor or hook up with someone else who has CTS/RSI and get some advice. Then there are exercies etc. Advil and cold compresses work best for me.
But nothing beats getting away from the keyboard for periodic rest periods. Just don't do equally strenuous activities on your away periods.
Solution (Score:2)
vitamin supplyments (Score:1)
Solutions for Pain and Numbness (Score:2)
Fortunately, there are solutions to relieve the symptoms.
First, I use a wrist brace/splint from Futuro. You can buy one [drugstore.com] from drugstore.com [drugstore.com], though I got mine from the pharmacy or health/wellness department of Zellers [zellers.ca]. They range in price from $16 to $25, depending on where you buy it from and what country you live in. Definitely well worth it, though.
As well
A low tech solution (Score:1)
Here's what my doctor suggested:
Stop playing fast paced computer games with your mouse; this will screw up your wrist more then anything else.
Write in big letters on your monitor (just above the screen)
"Monday morning: move keyboard, mouse and cha
I've found that (Score:1)
Yoga for wrists (Score:1)
Easy Solution (Score:1)
MS Natural Elite / Logitech Symmetric Trackball (Score:1)
I use an MS Natural Elite keyboard and the cheapest Logitech trackball.
The trackball I use is ambidexterous (may be used with the right and left hand) and only costs $20. It's NOT the trackball mouse that requires right hand usage and thumb movement of the ball.
When I'm at work, I use my right hand. I switch for my work at home to my left. This way, both hands are equally utilized and the strain is distributed as well. Also, t