Attitudes in IT - Mediocrity Wins? 145
podo asks: "I've spent the past two months of my life working almost full time on a PHP/MySQL based web site for a client. Today I received an e-mail from the client point me to a similar web site set up by a competitor. 'Doing exactly what we are doing.' The site in question is not doing what we are doing, they have no dynamic content, no web forms, just e-mail addresses. They scarcely have any content (I counted only four HTML pages) at all. The client is chastising me for taking a long time and because the other site is 'much more impressive visually' than ours. Has anyone else found themselves in a situation where their painstaking work is compared to work which is a showcase for mediocrity? How have you dealt with such clients who fail to see the difference between a shoddy rush job and real quality?"
Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Three "Simple" Words (Score:2)
Otherwise, you cannot under-promise and over-deliver... ;-)
Re:Three "Simple" Words (Score:2, Insightful)
Worthless when you're dealing with websites for people who don't know about websites. People who have never had a site and are in the market for one, are looking for the "oh...neat" factor provided by graphics, not performance. They usually want cool looks and don't care much about the backend workings. It should work, but more, it should look impressive. So, the key for code monkeys is to work together with a graphic artist or the like. That way, you can just code and n
Diffferent definitions of quality work (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but was that in the specs? Or was that something you voluntarily done for your client? If the client's requirement was "a simple Web site showcasing our products and allowing people to contact us", then he's right in pointing out that some things can be done cheaper and faster. You might have implemented scalable multi-processor algorithms for error-checking the text in the Web form, what does he care?
Re:Diffferent definitions of quality work (Score:2, Insightful)
KevG
Yes, But Make Sure Client Knows What He Asked For (Score:3, Informative)
Absolutely. But it is your responsibility to make sure the client understands what will be delivered when you meet the requirements. Part of your job is translating requirements-speak into client-speak.
After being burned (as the client) I learned to schedule a session whose only purpose is to have the client outline for the designers what he thinks the requirements mean. Tends to clear up a lot of confusion before the real work begins.
Re:Yes, But Make Sure Client Knows What He Asked F (Score:2, Funny)
wouldn't that make everything easier?
Re:Yes, But Make Sure Client Knows What He Asked F (Score:3, Interesting)
I've sat in more than enough unhappy meetings between client and software firms for this lifetime. Far too often, the customer is ticked off because they didn't get what they thought they asked for. When the techies respond, "That's the requirements said.", I know that they sent someone over to the client's office for half-a-day to ask questions and write requirements. The spe
Re:Diffferent definitions of quality work (Score:2)
Yes, but was that in the specs? Or was that something you voluntarily done for your client?
I consider myself a pretty good programmer, taking pains to write quality code, that is extensible, powerful, flexible, elegent, etc. It is anathema for me to do a shoddy job.
But some years ago I had a wise boss who told me
Do your homework! Specifications... (Score:5, Insightful)
Regardless, satisfying a client without a very detailed spec (which they sign off on) is a very difficult thing. It's never good enough, or is never matches their conception of what they were looking for.
Always, always, always, have a spec document that details exactly what they're getting for their $$$. Then, when they bitch and moan about what you gave them, point at the document. It's not a fail-safe way to do business, but it will help you not get sued. It also helps prevent scope creep, which if allowed will impact *your* bottom line, not theirs.
Re:Do your homework! Specifications... (Score:2)
satisfying a client
Then, when they bitch and moan...
So if I understand corretly, and correct me if I'm wrong, dealing with a client is alot like dealing with my wife?
Design. Design, design, design. (Score:4, Insightful)
In my opinion, this points to a decided lack of a proper design phase in you development process.
Does the client really not know enough about the design of what you are building for them, that they have made such an 'obvious' mis-comparison with the other project?
Design is more than just 'its going to work this way', its also 'its going to work this way, because'
Re:Design. Design, design, design. (Score:1)
Yes, exactly. No matter how smart you are, you must be able to prove your smartness to critics or else it's not worth anything.
Answer in question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Only a plumber would care mostly about plumbing when buying a house. Most people will first judge on how it looks and how they feel it would be like to live in it.
Not only a plumber would care... (Score:3, Interesting)
The "blame" lies somewhere in the middle here.
Home buyers who don't care about the quality of the plumbing are just asking to learn the hard way.
People who want a website but want it quick (and without any maintenance system behind the scenes) are asking for trouble later when they can't keep it updated.
Re:Not only a plumber would care... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's the thing - it's usually not worth the effort making mantainable websites because the odds are the website author won't end up maintaining them anyway.
Re:Answer in question... (Score:3, Insightful)
The web team at our office consists of two people. A developer, who writes the code, and a graphic designer, who makes it look pretty to the customer.
Customers only see (and often only really care about) the user interface. If the software is insecure, inadequate, screws up their data, or whatever else, they truly don't seem to ca
Not sure you want to hear this... (Score:5, Insightful)
You might have an amazing database engine, but if it is not visually appealing, there is still a major issue.
To sum up: Customers like shiny things. Make it pretty.
Re:Not sure you want to hear this... (Score:1)
Re:Not sure you want to hear this... (Score:5, Interesting)
Your design may be prettier, more effective, etc. but if the end result achieved is only slightly different than the competition, and you took 4 times as long to get there, it should be clear which site the client is going to prefer.
You need to step back from your work long enough to evaluate honestly whether your interface is actually more compelling to the target audience, and whether the interface is even a key decision maker for the target audience. For example, I don't choose what hardware to buy for my PC based on the quality of the vendor's websites. Do I appreciate a vendor who has an intuitive and well organized website? Absolutely. But that's not going to make me spend more money for one product over another. I'm sure that's the perspective of your client, and it is completely valid.
Lessons... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, it has been my experience that flash always beats substance. My bosses/clients have always spent all their time niggling about design, layout, and color selection, rather than the actual functionality
Re:Lessons... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lessons... (Score:1)
Re:Lessons... (Score:2)
And you will then be hired and paid by whom?
Re:Lessons... (Score:2)
Re:Lessons... (Score:2)
That's why he's the boss, and not you.
You're talking about a web site. That's marketing, sales, publicity. That in turn means pizazz, shine, flash, user experience. The back end is utterly irrelevant, except in so far as it helps the above. The boss understands that, because he's a businessman. A lot of people in this discussion apparently don't, because they're developers. Lucky there's enough room in the w
Re:Lessons... (Score:2)
Re:Lessons... (Score:1)
You are right.
It's rather ironic, really: the best functionality is that which goes unnoticed. It's like the tech support personnel of an IT Department: nobody notices they're there, until something goes wrong.
Re:Lessons... (Score:2)
for a while.
but yeah, most people with money are fools.
put them out of their misery by parting them
from their money: give them what they want.
think of them as children, not as rational
economic agents. give them shiny toys, and
they will be happy. do rocket science, and
they will whine and pout and probably piss on
you.
Re:Lessons... (Score:1)
Failing that, at least read The Non-Designer's Design Book [peachpit.com].
Solution is: (Score:5, Funny)
That way everyone is happy.
Re:Solution is: (Score:4, Insightful)
The cost of a flat in london with the same interior volume as that of a 42u rack at a colo is about the same as renting a 42u rack at a colo. Just rent a rack and live in it.
On topic answers to ask slashdot.
A) get paid and walk away.
B) hire a talented graphic designer.
C) hire a student who aspires to be a talented graphic designer.
D) try to improve your own graphic design.
E) customers are impressed by shiny things. Put more shiny things on your website.
F) make it look good first and make it functional later. The sooner the client has something that will draw in customers, the sooner they will start making money. The sooner they start making money, the sooner you will get some of that money to improve the back end.
G) if you don't like dealing with customers, don't work freelance.
Do you need more options?
Bob.
Problem with Option G (Score:2)
The problem with this option is that in many cases it's no longer an optional option- it's work freelance or starve. Permanent private sector IT jobs are going overseas or bringing in low-wage-slaves to do them, and permanent low-skilled jobs are going to "undocumented" workers. The only thing left is freelance, retraining, or government- and government/retraining can take a year or more to get into.
You guys... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you hate what you are doing, or are incapable, the only honest thing is to stop becoming vicitm and starve to death.
If somebody with enough education to be designing websites starves to death for lack of work, they deserve to starve.
Still I want to see proof that people are starving to death for lack of jobs in the US IT industry.
Whinning, whinning and whinning is the only think I see here....
Re:You guys... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Problem with Option G (Score:2)
The contractors that do well (as in earn lots of money) are the ones who do exactly what the customer thinks they want.
The contractors that do exactly what they think the customer needs should really be looking for permanent work, or
Re:Problem with Option G (Score:2)
Thank God for State Government- which saved me after 26
Many times... (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Write a report explaining the importance of each and every piece of your project;
2) Schedule partial presentations at least every other week;
3) Write another report showing the weaknesses of your competitor, and providing information as to why your project (and in consequence, your client's project) is technically superior.
But don't forget that from a layman's point of view, prettier is almost always better (and the case is not necessarily true).
Re:Many times... (Score:2)
Wow.. (Score:3, Funny)
ugh...
Re:Wow.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The arrogance of programmers is only exceeded by their snottiness.
Re:Wow.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah. It's not like I'm paying your money or anything, so why in the hell would you want to do what I say?
If you are willing to hire someone to do work you don't know how to do, you should be willing to listen to them.
Example: Lets say a client comes up to me and asks about upgrading his CPU in an AMD 1.13GHz/64MB machine because his machine is too slow.
I'd ask him what he was doing and probably suggest upgrading the memory instead.
The problem is when he ignores my suggestion and goes with the CPU -- in the end, his machine will be slow, he won't be happy, and it will look like I did a crappy job.
Re:Wow.. (Score:2)
Well, one reason is that your name is being associated with a very visible work. If it is unpleasant to look at or use, then it will be a detriment to your future employment. Some contracts are not worth taking because they will have a negative impact. Your job should be to provide what the client needs and get him to appreciate it (the harder part).
'The arrogance of programmers is only exceeded
Re:Wow.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wow.. (Score:2)
Not the same (Score:3, Insightful)
Web design is similar, in that you have a custome
Two types of IT people (Score:2)
Here's an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you can explain to the client in question why "visually impressive" means absolutely nothing if the site is functionally inadequate.
Have fun.
/. competition (Score:2)
The server that stays up the longest - wins!
Oh, yeah, forgot! (Score:2)
Re:Oh, yeah, forgot! (Score:2, Funny)
Or the variant approach I'm fond of:
"Okay, for $2000, the dog will walk through the hoop. For $4000, the dog will jump through the hoop. And for $6000, the dog will do a double-back flip through the hoop while juggling plates and whistling 'The Star Spangled Banner' through a body part not
Hmmmmm (Score:5, Informative)
For example, you state they only have 4 pages of content - how many do you have, etc.
There are a number of things about your post that strikes me as a bit odd. For example... when we bid projects we give a firm one-time price and a firm one-time delivery date. These are always adhered to - come hell or high water. Of course, changes to the specification can cause changes to the price and timeline, and our clients are aware of that - but as long as no changes are added to the original requirements document we ALWAYS meet our deadlines. Your post tends to leave that kinda open ended (I've given two months of my life - well, didn't you SPEC THAT OUT?).
Secondly, a MAJOR part of our client relationship is TEACHING THE CLIENT what a good website is, etc. Since almost 100% of the sites we do are heavy cgi-bin coded sites (C) with database handling, image processing, etc... there are many factors in such sites that require us to teach the client why one approach is better than another approach. THIS SHOULD BE DONE UP FRONT - NOT AT THE END. You have committed to an approach, but it doesn't strike me that you have educated your client as to the pros and cons of your approach.
Step 1: Discuss the clients needs with the client and show them examples of a number of solutions and outline to the client why each solution is better/worse than the others.
Step 2: Have your client give you feedback on which approach they wish to take, and why. Keep in mind how the site might progress in the future.
Step 3: Deliver to your client a detailed specification that outlines the site, the engines, how they work, how navigation works, how the site graphics look and feel, firm FIXED price and timeframe to delivery. Include periodic goals to show the client (we actually allow the client to critique the design while it is in progress)
Step 4: Create said site, in said timeframe and for said price.
At this point, it doesn't matter what the competitor does or did - the CLIENT was offered all the solutions and all the pros and cons and was properly educated as to why each was good / bad. OBVIOUSLY the competitor also selected one of those solutions - if they didn't, you left one out of your explaination. But assuming that you did your work correctly - than the client will ALREADY know the competitors site sucks (or cost a boatload more) and they will know why.
Most likely the call you will get from your client is *hahahahaha, check out the crap that the competitor did - man are we glad we went with you*.
Coding Skills Irrelevant To Running a Business (Score:2)
Remember, a web development business is not a place for you to geek out. It is a business. If you can't run a business, your coding skills are irrelevant.
Copy the competitor's site, call it alpha (Score:2)
What does this have to do with IT? (Score:5, Informative)
And the resolution is the same in every case: either the consultant over-estimated what the client wanted (in which case, the consultant is in trouble), or the consultant has to explain to the client that his so-called alternative really isn't that great.
Nothing to see here ... move on.
What color do you want that database? (Score:3, Funny)
If he says "I think mauve has the most RAM", run like hell.
Re:What color do you want that database? (Score:2, Funny)
Order give an Etch-a-sketch and see if he likes his new Tablet PC and dont't forget to explain how to reset it (hold above head and shake)
This happends all the time. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This happends all the time. (Score:2)
What the company actually wants is a simple program that is fairly static and simple.
That's for programming.
This is web design.
In my cynical experience, most small companies have no idea what they want in a website and have little, if any need for a website. The only reason why they want a website is that other people have a website.
The net result of this tends to be a flashy website that has no purpose and isn't used by anyone.
Re:This happends all the time. (Score:2)
While the statement "most small companies have no idea what they want in a website and have little, if any need for a website." was basicly true 5 years ago. It is no longer true any more. Too
All the friggin' time. (Score:2)
A counterquestion: Have you ever been forced to use low quality applications designed for multipurpose messing-things-up because it's easier for people with no programming knowledge to maintain than specificly designed applications that it takes less time to write? (For the record, I'm talking about Acc
Re:All the friggin' time. (Score:2)
Does WindowsME count?
Does everyone have to reinvent the wheel? (Score:4, Insightful)
Then concentrate on layout, but in the first place:
Make shure you have the fsck**g content for the site.
Then go back to refining the layout.
The backend should never take two whole manmonths for a single customer.
No wonder you have bitching customers.
Re:Does everyone have to reinvent the wheel? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Does everyone have to reinvent the wheel? (Score:2, Insightful)
Dont Compete with Micrsoft. (Score:2)
Cool. Email addresses on web pages. (Score:2)
Did you point out how much spam that would engender?
Mistake... (Score:2)
In reality, your client wanted fast now over quality and lower long run costs.
Also, if at THIS point in the project you have to explain to your client what you are doing, you didnt "sell" the project properly to begin with.
Heh - all the time! (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is conveying the value to someone with no foundation of knowledge to build on.
In this particular case I would use real-world examples of how your implementation is better. E.g. "If you decide to do XYZ or ABC or whatever down the road you can with my design because I've taken the time to analyze your needs and plan for the future. The site you're looking at would cost more in the long run because of the lack of forward-looking infrastructure."
That said, I would definitely see about partnering with a good graphics designer to make your site just as pretty (or more so).
Looks sell, ask any beautiful woman!
Re:Heh - all the time! (Score:2)
If he reaches for the checkbook, copy that other site, change the email and phone numbers, and buy me a Dell 18" flat panel LCD.
Re:Heh - all the time! (Score:2)
Heh, cute!
(For anyone taking him seriously that's a good way to get sued!)
I Don't. (Score:1)
What they get is graphical artists running Windows NT servers out of their homes and webpages that aren't supported and never work properly.
I don't care if there is money in it, I won't do it.
All the time (Score:2)
I built a complete publishing system in PHP / MySQL that supported downloads, uploads, media clips, fan club, automatic emailing based on calendar events and geographical location (and user's permission), etc. etc. etc.
Then I was told 'Thanks, but we want flash'.
Lesson learned- more sizzle and less stake.
Maybe it *is* more visually impressive (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe you should have spent half of your two months working on the front-end design...?
What color would you like your car? (Score:2)
Let me bring in an old analogy. In my High School, the Cool/Rich kids had Ford Mustang GTs (5.0 litre V8 at the time). The car (so they thought) turned heads at school.
About a year later, a kid started showing up to school in a Mustang as well. Of course, he talked about how he paid for it with his own hard cash and 'Mommy/Daddy' didn't buy it for him. Upon closer investigation, we found out that the his car had a
A little help with the flogging... (Score:4, Informative)
However, to hopefully help you out of this mess, here is some light reading that you might find useful:
1) Read Don't Make Me Think [barnesandnoble.com] (not on safari yet) by Steve Krug. It's the best web usability book out there and will take you all of two hours to go through. His usability testing alone would have found your problem earlier.
2) Read Eric Meyer on CSS [barnesandnoble.com](no safari) to find out how to make your site look better. If you can find/afford a designer, use them, but learn how to abstract your design from your code and your life will be much easier. (If you like it, there is More Eric Meyer on CSS [barnesandnoble.com] (safari) [oreilly.com] as well.
3) If you're trying to do public sites, I've found Submit Now [barnesandnoble.com] (safari) [oreilly.com]by Andrew Chak to be an excellent read. It's common sense, but its good to be reminded.
I hope this helps, and good luck salvaging the gig.
Did Client Want Dynamic Content, Web Forms? (Score:2)
Even if you think the client is ordering mediocre design, your job is to provide the best mediocre design you can.
My AC 2 Cents (Score:1, Interesting)
As with any contract labor, you need to be specific and entirely up-front about every little detail and put it in writing. This goes double for dealing with non-techies.
If you had done this, you would have already established that your CLIENT WANTS/EXPECTS lots of bling-bling and if you wanted to get the job, you would have given it to them.
Also, you would have laid out your timeline for accomplishing the site that THEY WANT.
When y
Sometimes that's all they need (Score:2)
The important thing is figuring out what will best suit their needs before you're 2 months into development. Suppose that 2 months cost them $20k, that's a lot of money compared to say, hiring a guy for 2 days, one to talk design, and the other to produce 4 pages. Y
What we have here is a failure to communicate. (Score:2)
Probably, your skill set is not appropriate to the
needs of the client. They want a graphic designer
to create a visually impressive collection of views.
They don't care about middle logic.
Just get the truth out on the table, and everyone
will be happier in the long run.
oh yeah baby (Score:4, Insightful)
First, if your client doesn't appreciate what you are giving them, you are either giving them too much or not selling them on what you're giving them.
Giving them to much - there is no point in giving your client something they will not appreciate. If you can't get them to appreciate it, it's not worth your time to develop it.
Not selling them - If you are dead set on giving your client something they don't value, you have to convince them that they need what you are offering. This is an uphill battle, this can be a full time job.
They key is to find out what your client truly wants, and then build that for them. When a client doesn't know what they want, you're in big danger, those are the kind of clients who won't appreciate what you give them (they can't appreciate it if they don't know they want it) and who will come to you with new bizarre requirements late in the project (they feel they haven't asked for much up to this point).
Explain the differences (Score:3, Informative)
Different Expectations (Score:1)
From your description, you are talking about different expectations. Most of the other posts already addressed the issue of needing good graphic design (which is a different skill from coding), client needs (which you address in the project specification including delivery time), etc.
Have you meet your agreements? Has the client? Are you doing something the client doesn't need because you think it would be neat to do X regardless of whether the client needs it? Perhaps the client is pointing it out to ren
Business value (Score:2)
What kind of car do you drive? (Score:2)
The next lesson you need to learn in business is that crappy stuff that works "well enough" is actually MORE valuable to most people than something extrodinary.
Ah, but does it work...? (Score:2)
Many people have said "Maybe you didn't take the customer's needs into account" - but that's only one half of it. (Besides, only you know whether you did or not. We don't. For all the rest of us know, you already did your homework thoroughly.)
The competitor's site, does it work? Does it do the job? And does it have flash, or any code that breaks other browsers, or takes an age to download? (Also ask the same questions about your site)
Now if it's a well-written easily-loadable site, then maybe you have a
Par for the course. (Score:2, Funny)
"I am a professional... " (Score:5, Interesting)
His answer went something like this: "I am a professional. I am exactly as good as the last job I have delivered. All my work is of professional quality, always, and I do not compromise or scamp my work for anybody, ever, because that is not what professionals do."
He went on to say that a professional must never do shoddy work and must always be willing to risk his job when asked to. He argued that it was committing career suicide to ever have shoddy work in public view with your name on it.
One of the characteristics of a professional is a sense of responsibility to "the profession" and to fellow professionals, as well as to the person who is writing the check.
I expect to get flamed by replies from people who write checks or who have been indoctrinated by people who write checks, and I don't say he was 100% right, but there is an ethical dimension to professional work.
As a Business Analyst, my advice is to... (Score:3, Informative)
Obviously, if you just give him the same thing as what that other site presents, he'll regret it. And, you'll regret it as it probably doesn't really cover his needs. You need to find out what he needs. Then, present it to him as a clarifying document so that he can see what you're doing for him, and if he agrees with it.
Use that other site as a base and start talking to your client about what he finds good about it. Then, find out what he finds missing in that site and yours (if you have something he can see). To fill in the puzzle of his needs, you need to pump him for requirements, and avoid giving him more sugar than he can handle. It wouldn't hurt to put together a diagram of his business process pertaining to the site. But, if you think it's overkill, at least put together a Functional Specification (really just a list of things he needs the site to be able to do) that describes what the site should do as part of his business. This can be the beginning of a contract that you and your client can come to agreement on, and anything else outside that contract is out of scope until the next revision. This will reduce some of the annoyance in dealing with a none-technical person who also happens to hold the purse-strings.
= 9J =
Is this you .... (Score:2)
If it is then I hope you designed something more visually appealing and usable for your client. It may provide the information via a neat-o program but it's not easy on the eye.
Me too = $11,000 hit (Score:2)
I also took a verbal description of their proposed new logo and did the design and graphics for it. It's a complicated, ani
Recommendation (Score:2)
The posts above are dead on when they say "get a good graphic designer on your team!" By the same token, that also means that you have to develop the entire site with this graphic designer in mind, who no doubt is NOT a programmer.
My wife and I have done a number of collaborative projects with her on design and me on programming. The first time we did this, it was an unmitigated disaster because I had not taken into account the necessities of "plugging in" the design after the plumbing was done; think of
Re:cei-la-vie? (Score:4, Insightful)
As many others have already pointed out, this was a design flaw. Apparently there is some disconnect from the user (client) and the developer. The developer is creating something different from what the user is expecting, wasting lots of time.
If the above isn't true, then the developer hasn't created a valid requirements spec which can be shown to the user to explain the difference between "crap product X" and "your product". Needless -- it sounds liek the client/user isn't being involved nearly enough.. where's the ongoing UAT?
Re:cei-la-vie? (Score:1)
Re:cei-la-vie? (Score:2)
confused (Score:5, Interesting)
"Quality" and "features" are not exclusive.
Negative extremes of these two are "over-engineered" and "bloated"
Would you code in triggers even if your project didn't need them, or merely insist your DB had them in case you might need them? (Smells like over-engineered)
Sam
Re:confused (Score:1)
As does the original questioner's website.
Re:confused (Score:2)
That was supposed to say:
(Smells like over-engineered)
As does the original questioner's website.
Re:confused (Score:2)
Its hard to tell if the original 2 month website was over-engineered or not without knowing what the customer actually asked for.
Sam
Re:It's sad but... (Score:3, Interesting)
"Well sir, if you think my efforts so far are unsatisfactory, I can take what I've coded so far out of the system entirely and you can look into hiring someone else."
--Some of the time, they'll back down - because they've already invested (time, money, reputation, $intangible) in what's been done so far. If they don't, you wouldn't want to work there anyway.