Getting Your Company to Migrate from IE? 199
RunningFerreT asks: "With all the recent warnings and recommendations on migrating from MSIE, I have come across a serious problem. The company for which I work doesn't want to, even after being informed of all the exploits and problems with Internet Explorer. Having the boss 'try out' Firefox isn't working: a single site looks bad, so IE must be better. Has anyone had success in convincing management types to switch from IE, to another more secure, standards compliant browser? If so, how did you get the job done?"
I must ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
As for migrating from IE, I've never had a problem encouring people. The built-in popup blocker is almost an instant 'OK! I'm converted!'. This may or may not be helpful: http://texturizer.net/firefox/faq.html [texturizer.net]
Perhaps, distribute a company-wide email, linking to a download for Firefox (put it on a local server, first, link to that, save Moz the bandwidth.
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
The thing that always gets noticed when I show people (certain) browser alternatives is the tabbed browsing, though the popup blocker also gets noticed, of course.
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
Re:I must ask... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
We might note that Microsoft-related sites have a history of checking the client's ID string and sending garbled pages to non-IE browsers. There was a recent story here about the Opera folks getting a few million bucks from msn.com over this.
When someone compl
Re:I must ask... (Score:3, Informative)
I don't know what is the reason but sometimes it just renders the frontpages article list on top of the left menu.
Ohwell, guess slashdot should put up a disclaimer:
"Designed for Internet Explorer 6 or later"
PS. Damnit, I tried to get it to barf to put up a screenshot but now the damn stubborn thing refuses to render incorrectly
Re:I must ask... (Score:3, Informative)
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21752
Re:I must ask... (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine if MS did something like this? We'd all be screaming bloody murder!
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
It does seem to be a rather bizarre bug, with no obvious correlation with the pages being viewed. But it's serious enough on my Mac (but not my linux box) that I simply use a different browser.
Good thing there are a lot of browsers available.
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
Re:I must ask... (Score:2, Insightful)
I have come to notice that I was wrong - businesses are still as dumb as they where years ago and they still trust MSFT. Now, I realize that some of you are forced to do what the bosses say, but as always, the people that having nothing to do with a projec
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
If you use Internet Explorer, your computer will fuck up.
Back when I started saying that in netscape 4.7 days, one could reasonably accuse me of exaggeratng or even unintentionally misleading--however, it seems that I've been vinidicated
Re:I must ask... (Score:2)
Web Standards (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Web Standards (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Web Standards (Score:3, Insightful)
And to that the boss says "but if IE can make it look right, why can't this firebox thingie manage to do the same?"
How Managers Work (Score:5, Insightful)
PHBs don't think like that unfortunately. They think, "Microsoft is everywhere so it is the standard. Everything else is broken or not good enough." When one of their PHB friends talks about how cool moving over to Firefox was next time they are out playing golf instead of working, you'll get a memo telling you about this great new thing that he's found and insisting that you try it out and have it installed on his machine. Next thing you know, a committee will go away and do a cost/benefit analysis and within 12 to 18 months a document will be written recommending that it becomes corporate policy to only use Firefox. Three to four years later it will become policy, you'll get to install it, but it'll be a 2-year-old version full of bugs and security holes and lacking modern standards.
Re:Web Standards (Score:3, Insightful)
Asking your boss to be part of a geek crusade is *not* going to swing it, not if they're any good at their job. You're not setting out how this change will provide any benefit to the company they and you are paid to represent. You're effectively saying if your boss switches and then an utterly huge body of millions of other users all do the same at around th
Re:Web Standards (Score:2)
Firefox 1.0? (Score:4, Insightful)
At work, many people use IE - but nobody has to. I'm also plannign on moving everyone at the office to Firefox once it hits 1.0. It's hard to get the PHB's to agree to something that's not 1.0
Re:Firefox 1.0? (Score:2)
It's hard to get the PHB's to agree to something that's not 1.0
Convince using death by a thousand cuts
Label it as IE (Score:5, Informative)
I just installed Firefox, then deleted the IE icons and then created new ones that had the IE icon and said "internet explorer" but whose link went to Firefox.
No compliants, no spyware since.
Re:Label it as IE (Score:2)
Re:Label it as IE (Score:2, Interesting)
> took this less-sneaky route myself), rename your new icon to "Internet", not
> "Internet Explorer". That way you're not just lying
Yeah, it's often just a matter of people not recognizing alternative browsers. I tried a similar approach at work, which is a small library setting. On our public computers I made a new shortcut to Firefox on the desktop, gave it a generic globe icon, and called it simply "Internet." Now I
Re:The picture is just as sneaky (Score:2)
Often, the article doesn't even need to have anything to do with the world wide web :)
Re:IE == internet (Score:2)
You'd just get a ton of requests of "where is internet explorer, internet is not the same as internet explorer" and other ignorant bullshit like that.
You have to draw the line of practicality somewhere.
ISV's (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
I assume that it's not java, but a windows dll style plugin (activex). In which case, IE and Windows
And, most of that crud should be gone. Even MS is pointing you at
ratboy
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
actually... (Score:2)
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
Our solution has been to do the sneaky icon switch somebody posted above and set things up so that everything defaults to FireFox but we also gave people separate appropriately labeled icons to those IE-specific sites with IE locked down so they can't go wandering off (or at least not as easily anyway).
It's a little ugly but it works and we've sent various emails to the site maintainers wit
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
But what about businesses where employees are paid? Surely if someone can't endure an extra mouse click even after getting paid to do it, fire their lazy asses!
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
Firefox developers, if they want their browser to be successful, need to have it render pages EXACTLY the same way IE does. WHEN THEY'VE DONE THAT, they can add W3C compliance and all the cool features that IE won't have because it's a stagnant product.
Users
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
Now they're in a bind, because people have already coded sites based on the assumption that IE does X and Mozilla does Y. They can't become IE compatible without breaking stuff.
The worst thing is that Netscape/Mozilla sat out the d
Re:ISV's (Score:2)
Actually, it already is successful. Don't measure success by the raw number of users. That's Microsoftthink. You don't have to have the entire world as a customer in order to call yourself successful.
I prefer Konqueror over Firefox, and I don't see myself switching anytime soon. But when I have to use Windows, it's Firefox or Mozilla everytime.
IE - Safari problems (Score:3, Funny)
My simple idea so far is just to remove his permissions to IE
Re:IE - Safari problems (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:IE - Safari problems (Score:2)
Windows-using corporate types have heard of IE and have heard of Macs, so they tend to write Mac/IE testing into their requirements. However, they haven't heard of "Safari", so it's not as likely to be written into the specs.
In fact, I bet that even most Mac users haven't heard of Safari, because it's only really availble on the latest OS X version, and half the installed base is still on OS 9 and below. If you want to reach t
Re:IE - Safari problems (Score:2, Informative)
"IE is a piece of shit and has security problems. I'm installing another browser."
"But...my bookmarks"
"Your bookmarks will be there"
"Uhm...Ok"
No apologies, just do. If there is arguement, print out some Windows IE bug reports and pretend they affect the Mac. Highlight those phrases like 'critical', 'data corruption' and 'complete data loss'.
Re:IE - Safari problems (Score:2)
You point about hourly loss doesn't actually
Why isnt there an IE skin? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Why isnt there an IE skin? (Score:2)
Re:Why isnt there an IE skin? (Score:5, Informative)
I've used it many times. Switch the icon for Firefox to IE. Install Luna. Done.
Re:Why isnt there an IE skin? (Score:2)
Is that the right link? That theme doesn't look a bit like IE...
IT folks should have the final say. (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because a single site "looks bad" by the boss' taste is hardly an excuse for letting open your company's IT infrastructure to all sort of malware and viruses. Even if not for the technical aspect, the boss will understand how much money can saved by avoiding the problems in the first place, and should be convinced. Same as with backups, really: this comment [slashdot.org] from earlier today, is pretty insightful to that matter: how much is your data worth ? Justify the migration "costs" (free in your case, but some cosmetic issues the boss will have to do with) by figuring out what your data is worth to begin with.
Re:IT folks should have the final say. (Score:2)
Re:IT folks should have the final say. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:IT folks should have the final say. (Score:3, Interesting)
The next time th
Re:IT folks should have the final say. (Score:2)
Use a trusted brand name (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand the enthusiasm here for Firebird, but it's still essentially a beta product. Netscape/Mozilla has always rendered pages for me correctly, so I'M more comfortable with that option as well. Yes, the Feds warning against IE helps, but if you're an IT manager or sysadmin, it's still your rep on the line when something doesn't work right. The fact that Netscape appears to have gotten a reprieve (7.2 is coming out soon) helps matters. Businesses and government organizations like to play it safe. They don't want to hear beta or open source. They want to hear a trusted brand name. When that brand name uses open source, all the better for you the technology implementer.
Re:Use a trusted brand name (Score:2)
I have explained to folks that Netscape = Mozilla (just ask em to type about: into their URL)...and then I explain the fact that Netscape 6+ = Mozilla + AOL Marketing...
I already have my boss using Firefox and a few folks (parents and friends) using Firefox because of the recent exploits. Telling them that "it's their patriotic duty" [slashdot.org] isn't a bad idea either
Outlook Web Access = IE, != Anything Else (Score:4, Informative)
At several of the organizations I've been involved with over the last couple of years, remote email (and calendar and discussion and ) has been via Outlook Web Access. Funny enough, usability tanks regarding attaching files, spell check, moving emails, preview panes, etc.
IMHO, it is not the internet at large that's the issue with browser shifts; it's the intranet.
Re:Outlook Web Access = IE, != Anything Else (Score:2)
Make it fall-over simple to write ad deploy terribly insecure applications
Do so by inte
The first step is easy... (Score:2)
1. Get the website to fix their websites to look good in your choice of browser
2. Install a proxy to fix sites as they flow through. Plan in maintenance so the rules are updated as sites change.
3. Convince the company to use a different resource that is complaint
Then switch everyone
How I did it (Score:5, Informative)
Imported Favorites and settings...made IE hidden..
2 or 3 users are special cases and they really need IE for some IE specific ActiveX crap but that's it...
I spent 5minutes clearing spyware in the past 6 weeks.
What I've found... (Score:3, Insightful)
In any event, when faced with a similar situation, I generally follow this tack:
1. Write a memo (I'm better with the written word than the spoken word - additionally, the written word has a date on it) that clearly, unemotionally lays out the advantages/drawbacks to whatever I'm proposing. If you're fairly good with the written word, you can weight your bias, if you're so inclined. Even without bias, you can mention stuff like the TRUE costs of fighting a vulnerability (computer/worker downtime, multiplied by the number of users, estimated cost in your salary per instance, etc).
2. Submit the memo, and don't get offended if your idea is not taken. Even well reasoned, compelling arguments are not always enough. Keep in mind that we're focusing on base hits, not home runs.
3. Time is on your side. There will only be more vulnerabilities. This does not mean you should be happy with new vulnerabilities, but they are only serving to bolster your case. Hopefully you've made management aware of the associated costs of dealing with IE vulnerabilities. Keep in mind that management understands cost and benefit. They don't respond to features and feelings. Do a really good job of showing how the cost and benefits outweigh the inconvenience, and you'll usually have a green light.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
Re:What I've found... (Score:2)
I would dispute this. I've seen any number of cases where management is dedicated to Microsoft and/or IBM. When I ask to see their numbers jjustifying this, they never have them. I've never seen anything approaching a financial study of the topic in any company. (Well, actually I did see one 15 years ago. That company converted over to Sun.
Most managers just "know" that MS and/or IBM is the best. Since they
How to deal with ''Management Types'' (Score:3, Insightful)
Forward your boss.... (Score:3, Funny)
After he fills them all out and submits them, go into his office and explain to him what he just did.
How about creating mod_noie? (Score:5, Insightful)
It worked for Microsoft to squelch DR-DOS [kickassgear.com], didn't it? Turnabout is fair play.
Re:How about creating mod_noie? (Score:2)
837009 (Score:2, Funny)
Re:837009 (Score:3, Insightful)
If I was a PHB (what the hell - at my last job, I was) - the next words out of your mouth about this could very well be your last.
Let me explain.
You can't name any of the specific unpatched exploits (because you can't be bothered to look them up). Strike one.
Your argument about who installs updates is incomprehensible. Updatable by THEM? Which THEM? I don't want anyone putting updates on my machines except sys/netadmin staff - not Microsoft, not the end users - nobody. "I can't always be the o
13 reasons (Score:3, Informative)
I think i once saw a page with like 100 reasons. But this covers the major ones.
It's all about money (Score:4, Insightful)
If you can't show the financial gain for the change, it doesn't make business sense. Period. Better = costs less overall. Period. "Less trouble for the tech guys" doesn't cut it. Neither does "but Firefox is more standards compliant!"
Siebel (Score:3, Interesting)
I know this because the place I work has been "upgrading" all the Win2K boxes to WinXP so that we can use siebel on them. They spent boatloads of money to both MS & Siebel on the upgrade, so yeah, they're probably not very eager to switch to a browser that will prevent them from using the most important part of their job (Siebel is the main system we use, there are a dozen or so peripheral systems that we use from time to time that may or may not work in FireFox as well).
Consumer's looking to spend money on linux-friendly businesses should probably be avoiding AT&T Wireless... Verizon and General Electric also use Siebel...
Why do you need to get rid of IE again? (Score:2)
IE on win32 is pretty bad in security, but with the prevention steps, we've kept the support man-hours lower than what would be required for
Easiest way to get your boss to convert (Score:3, Insightful)
If he does, then you tell him how it happened. He'll lose his computer for a while while you fix it, and invariably ask "how can I keep this from happening again?" and you tell him.
If he does NOT, then your company's security in other areas is making up for IE's weaknesses, in which case good for you. Still, it might be a good idea to tally up how much money you're spending to protect IE users from themselves, assuming you would actually be spending a lot less if IE wasn't a concern.
And, at the end of the day, if his laptop isn't getting taken over by virii and such, and you can't make a good case for (a) saving money by switching, or (b) reducing non-boss employee downtime by switching...well, you don't really have a problem.
FWIW, I had the same problem convincing my wife to switch. Before her computer got infected, she was highly reluctant. After she lost her computer for a week until I had the time to fix it, she became a convert, and now uses FireFox exclusively.
Do you know anybody decent in Legal? (Score:3, Interesting)
Played right, this approach probably has a better chance than any other of getting a no-appeal "IE is banned" rule from on high.
Printing problem... (Score:2)
Depends on "services" on the INTRAnet... (Score:2)
Security Fixes (Score:3, Interesting)
I read somewhere there's a remote hole in Moz 1.6 and FireFox 0.8. However, the advisory page [mozilla.org] doesn't list them, and hasn't been updated since November, so I don't know what to believe.
Furthermore, some milestone releases aren't totally stable or may behave differently. It would be very difficult for a corporate deployment to follow Mozilla's release schedule, especially if they had to test intranet apps etc.
I know that Mozilla security is not a huge real world problem yet, but maybe someone can clarify what exactly Mozilla's security patch policy really is.
(Also, you'll have to prepare to uninstall and reinstall the whole browser because there isn't a patch procedure, but that probably could be scripted.)
No central management (Score:3, Interesting)
As a power user, I use Firefox as my sole browser on every machine I own and use daily. That being said, as a network admin my network still uses IE as the primary browser for one reason, group policy. I work at a school, so managing Internet settings centrally and locking them down is a requirement. Until I can easily manage Firefox centrally and deploy custom pacakges, I will continue to use IE on my network.
We've never had a problem with IE, and we run an application-level firewall, so filtering the latest IE exploits is quite easy. Popup blocking is provided by the Google Toolbar. Spyware isn't a problem because my users don't run under a privledged account, and McAfee VirusScan 7 corporate picks up browser hijackers as viruses.
Re:No central management (Score:2)
And yes I know it's open source and I know that I could probably write some management modules, but that'
Managers are paid to make decisions (Score:2)
Take a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. Over the left, write "Advantages of Moving to Firefox" over the left "Disadvantages of Movign to Firefox".
---
Advantages:
Less chance of a
Take it slow (Score:3, Insightful)
As an open source advocate and an employee, it's important not to let your beliefs prevent you from giving advice that's in the best interests of the company. Your boss would probably appreciate a bigger range of recommendations, from adjusting IE's security options to autoupdate to of course installing a new browser and making it the default, or just doing nothing about the problem, in which case state the risks and give past examples of problems that have resulted in loss to the company. You'll probably want to mention Thunderbird for email, since it's also pretty secure, has built in spam blocking, and blocks external images (used to verify good addresses).
Where I work, a lot of us are using FireFox, but it's not a policy, people can still use IE, and the employers were already biased against MS to begin with.
What about the FireFox display bug? (Score:2)
Look before you leap (Score:2)
If your job involves making IT decisions then you should either learn to do legitimate investigation before trying to pitch an idea to the higher-ups or invest in a 401(k) and try to keep yo
It's easy (Score:2)
Second, everyone I've ever switched to Firefox has been really happy with it. It's got a good interface and better features than IE (no that IE has set the bar especailly high).
Just show the underlings... (Score:2)
At any rate, I started showing individuals FireFox (and Thunderbird as long as they aren't using the calandering
A Good Start (Score:3, Insightful)
Be serious about this - on the one hand, it might make your boss realise that you're not dicking about. And if he still refuses to switch, and you've got a signed letter, it might save your job some day.
Re:Easy. (Score:2)
Re:Easy. (Score:2)
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Easy. (Score:2)
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Insightful)
*and* remember to name them to something obvious (such as "Internet Browser" o "Web Browser"). They might think "Firefox" is some kind of game.
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Interesting)
OK, as a rule, when someone is asking a question about workplaces and bosses and corporate policies -- answers regarding "Here's what I did for my mom / my sister / my grandma..." tend not to be super helpful.
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Easy. (Score:2)
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Your average user would never know the difference.
Re:Easy. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the best way is to make users aware of the problems with IE, and then show them how Firefox fixes those problems. The fact that open source coders respond to security flaws faster than coders who work on proprietary software is also an advantage.
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Informative)
No, your average user is utterly oblivious to Microsoft and so on. They really really couldn't care less so long as "Hotmail works". They know that if they click on a blue icon that says "Internet Explorer" then they can look at porn and so on.
Case in point - I installed Firefox for my father recently - he got a PC about 2 years ago and is very much the sort of person who will install anythi
Re:Easy. (Score:2, Funny)
Step 1: Remove Firefox
Step 2: Wait a few weeks
Step 3: Add an entry to his hosts file that directs this one site to a porn site. Better yet, update your local DNS to be authoritative for the domain of the site and set 'www.example.com' to the offending IP. (No evidence on the boss's machine, then)
Step 4: When he comes to you asking for help, tell him his Internet Explorer is infected. Make sure to say "I hope you
Re:Easy. (Score:3, Insightful)
2004 Free Software Advocate: Don't give them a choice and they won't be able to use IE!
Re:Easy. (Score:2)
2004 Free Software Advocate: Don't give them a choice and they won't be able to use IE!
Ah...at last. The student becomes the master.
That's really great.
That's the problem with the undercurrent of this whole MS vs. productX problem. "It sucks" "Mine's Better" "Blah Blah"
IE takes so many hits and attacks because it's #1. If Moz ever gets to be #1, the script kiddies won't be writing attacks on IE flaw because it'll be
Re:Its sad at the end really (Score:3, Informative)
Lots of people say that, yet I don't seem to be suffering the least using any of a number of non MSIE browsers, on my non MS OS.
I guess I'm just lame or something and am not using the "hot" or "cutting-edge" web sites... or perhaps the claim that " if you do not use IE, your missing out on imporatant sites etc.." is just plain FUD.
But, so as to not make waves, I'll opt for the "I'm lame" answer...
Re:Its sad at the end really (Score:2)
http://http//www.ebay.com [http]
In firefox, that takes me to http://www.microsoft.com
WTF? This was just a typo as I got in a hurry trying to visit Ebay.