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Data Storage OS X Operating Systems Software

Multicast Imaging for Mac OS X? 69

Posted by Cliff from the REAL-server-PUSH dept.
ATomkins asks: "The school where I work has 128 new G5s which will be set up in a couple of labs. We want to completely re-image all G5s at least every semester. Ideally, we would want to use something like Ghost to push the image out to all the Macs at once; with Dell boxen, under similar circumstances, this takes about 20-30 minutes. Is there a viable alternative for OS X?"
"So far, among other things, we've tried NetInstall and ARD2, which preformed horribly, taking over 200 minutes using GigE. Our best solution has been Carbon Copy Cloner over FW800, but that costs a lot in terms of labour. UDPCast over a Gentoo LiveCD image (distributed via NetInstall) seemed promising, but is being troublesome.

Assuming block-level unicast isn't an option, does anyone have any ideas how we can make this more automated?"
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Multicast Imaging for Mac OS X? More

Multicast Imaging for Mac OS X?

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  • NetRestore (Score:5, Informative)

    by huber ( 723453 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:31PM (#10114390)
    Netrestore http://www.bombich.com

    • Re:NetRestore (Score:2, Informative)

      by kandersn ( 758127 )
      I agree, NetRestore is the way to go. Although NetRestore and Carbon Copy Cloner are just GUIs to the command line asr tool, they make the job much easier and more automated.

      I work for a school district and we have a dual 1.25 G MDD G4 as a NetRestore Server. I use this to reimage labs and new machines out of the box.

      Use the newest computer you have and set it up for the lab. Use Carbon Copy Cloner to create the image with. Boot the source computer in Target disk mode and plug it into your computer wi

      • Re:NetRestore (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        FYI, you could deploy that beast Dual-G4 as a real machine and use pretty much any G4 (or even a G3-500) as the image server with no loss in performance. Not criticizing, just pointing out that blowing a very expensive apple machine for a simple server task is massive overkill.
    • Apple's own 'Disk Utility' has included the 'restore' funtionality from Netrestore since 10.3 came out. It's just a front-end to 'asr'.

      I use command-line stuff and Carbon Copy Cloner to make a master, and use target-mode, disk utility, and several long firewire cables to restore labs.

      If I had to automate it, I'd make a non-automounted partition with just Darwin on it, copy 'asr' and any needed files to it and boot to that to reimage the 'OS X' partition.

      As far as I know, there are no multicast mac imagin
    • Try the following:

      to set this up, start by making a hardlink copy on each computers's disk of the entrie disk:

      su root
      find / | cpio -dpl /image

      this creates an (almost) no space occupying duplicate of your current disk in the subdirectory /image. Note dont do this twice in a row without adding flags to find to skip the image dir!

      Next when you want to push a new image simply mount the remote disk (without roosquash) and do a differential copy of the new image to the old image directory using rsyncX or rdi
    • The OP is asking about MULTICAST network restore solutions (and I take it to mean IP multicast). NetRestore isn't. It's all unicast. We use it, but are also suffering from the "can't rebuild more than a few at a time" syndrome.
  • How big is the image? How big is your Dell image?

  • ..Or Radmind (Score:5, Informative)

    by huber ( 723453 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:33PM (#10114403)
    Radmind works fatastically. i use it to manage about 600 macs with different loadsets using the tls certificate feature. http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/radmind/

    • Re:..Or Radmind (Score:5, Informative)

      by iradik ( 247593 ) <ossix.ossix@net> on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @02:33AM (#10115586) Homepage
      I agree. For many years radmind was the only robust solution for OS X. It is by far the most widely used for this task. Though radmind is slow. It will take 2-8 hours to update your computers from scratch. However, why does it matter? Plus radmind will allow you to push incremental upgrades in as little as two minutes. It's somewhat difficult to learn, but the radmind user list is really really great. Most of the people on the list run big university labs or corporate labs and I find them to be really smart and creative. Check it out: http://www.radmind.org/ [radmind.org]

      Thoug I have to say sometimes radmind sucks, like if you go from Jaguar to Panther it can break. Though generally for minor system updates and security fixes it's okay. This is why you TEST! And if you need a full restore you use apple software restore or netrestore from Mike Bombich. I like that guy: http://www.bombich.com/ [bombich.com] But then you need an Mac OS X Server http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/ [apple.com] as I recall, in which case, you might as well by an xserve http://www.apple.com/xserve/ [apple.com] since it comes with the software. But again you will only need Bombich once a year; so you can just visit every machine with a cd ad it might be as effective as all the ASR which I found to be difficult to implement. We had to get an Apple Engineer to set it up for us. heh.

    • Re:..Or Radmind (Score:2, Interesting)

      by jps3 ( 2870 )
      In my lab, I will NetBoot my Macs to a NetRestore.nbi image, which points to a *.dmg file I make of my new setups base install (using Carbon Copy Cloner, or SuperDuper). The base install images is set up to run radmind on first boot to get all updates, add any apps needed, etc. Works well. I do not think Radmind is slow, unless the damned building netcam is on (the Dean installed it, I can't touch it, grr).
  • First, create one G5 exactly the way you like it for every "grouping" of hardware (i.e. identical configurations). Second, boot knoppix ppc. Third, mount an nfs partition where you store the images. Forth, use the dd command to backup the harddrive device, e.g. dd if=/dev/sda of=/nfsmount/image bs=4k . To restore, use the dd command in reverse, e.g. dd if=/nfsmount/image of=/dev/sda bs=4k . Creating a different image for each configuration.

    Not the easiest, perhaps, but free and effective, and only limited

  • macosxlabs (Score:5, Informative)

    by brianmed ( 131838 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:39PM (#10114433)

    macosxlabs [macosxlabs.org] has articles and whatnot about this, i believe:

    From the site:
    Welcome to the web site for the Higher Education Mac OS X Lab Deployment Initiative. Our goal is to simplify the task of installing and maintaining Mac OS X in a computer lab.

    • Re:macosxlabs (Score:5, Informative)

      by Graff ( 532189 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:50PM (#10114858)
      macosxlabs.org [www.macosxlabs] has articles and whatnot about this, i believe
      macosxlabs.org [macosxlabs.org] is definitely a great site to use as a resource. The specific area of the website to take a look at is the"Documentation - System Deployment & Maintenance" [macosxlabs.org] section. Here is a link to a PDF [macosxlabs.org] that explains how to use MacOS X Server, NetInstall, and Apple Software Restore to accomplish this task.

      If the copy operation is as slow as you are mentioning then the disk image that is being restored from probably was not properly prepared and so the image is probably being copied at the file level rather than the block level. This would cause the operation to take a great deal more time. As someone else mentioned, a man page listing of the asr shell tool under Mac OS X will show you a good discussion on optimizing restore speed. Here is a web site [hmug.org] with that man page.

  • Ghost 4 unix (Score:5, Informative)

    by fok ( 449027 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:48PM (#10114497) Homepage
    From the site:

    g4u ("ghost for unix") is a NetBSD-based bootfloppy/CD-ROM that allows easy cloning of PC harddisks to deploy a common setup on a number of PCs using FTP."

    http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/ [feyrer.de]
  • You could offer a linux/netbsd ppc kernel and root image from OS X's dchpd/tftpd, then push and pull images to/from nfs/cifs. You could also use your iPod (or another external), with a full rescue OS X install or netbsd/linux to do imaging.

    Its quite useful to have a menu'd network bootstrap at the ready for this kind of stuff, or installing whatever OS, or a nfs rooted copper Gbit media boxes (oh my).
  • I haven't really spent time with NetRestore, but it just is an easy wrapper for Apple Software Restore. ASR can do block copies instead of file level copies but I don't know if NetRestore defaults to using that. 'man asr' might be useful, since you can really just skip the netrestore stuff once you know what is it wrapping.

    Mac OS X Server includes a netinstall feature, though it really just netboots clients off an install image. I think there is supposed to be an 'unmanaged' install feature, though I ha
    • I use it to manage my lab of 28 G5s. I have a Mac OS X Server set up to deliver a NetBoot image with NetRestore on it to the lab machines.

      When I want to re-image a machine from scratch (as a side note, I haven't had to do this once in 2 years, Radmind and OS X do such a good job of keeping everything the way it should be), I just boot it while holding down the N key, NetRestore loads, I select the appropriate image, and there it goes.

      A single machine takes about 10 minutes, and since the OS X Server also

  • OS X Server + Net Install (Score:4, Informative)

    by PygmySurfer ( 442860 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:59PM (#10114566)
    Have you tried using OS X Server and Net Install?

    This document [apple.com] provides an overview of it, but doesn't really detail the procedure. Might at least point you in the right direction, however.
  • I'd imagine Apple's Remote Destop [apple.com]would do the job, as well as give you a lot more, probably usefull admin tools to play around with. Although it's not free, $500 for 130 machinies isn't that much when it come's to probably pretty good reliability.
  • The above posters sound like good advice. If they don't work, you could try asking at a Mac store and see what they use. I'm not sure if or what they use, but their systems are always pretty clean. They must use something to reinstall their systems regularly.

    • The use some variant of NetBoot imaging to re-image the machines from a central Apple server (at Apple HQ, IIRC). I think this happens every night. That way they can ensure that every machine in every store works identically.
  • Even Apple make one....boot all the G5s off it...GigE makes that easier.

    -psy
    • At over $500 per machine, a Fibre Channel SAN doesn't look like such a good idea in this scenario. OS X doesn't support iSCSI, so an Ethernet SAN is out of the question.

  • Not NetRestore (Score:5, Informative)

    by Mikey-San ( 582838 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:41PM (#10114789) Homepage Journal
    As far as I know and can tell, NetRestore isn't multicast imaging, guys. I've imaged thousands of machines with NetRestore, and while it's a wonderful wrapper for ASR and such, it's not what this guy is asking for.

    However, it would do his job just fine. If you've only 125 machines, and you're not pushing out more than one image, I bet you could do them all in a day or so by yourself. (A 2-gig image can be pushed to a new Mac in ten minutes or less, depending on its HD speed. If you do 24 at once--24 being a random switch port count I picked out of my head--you could do two to three sets in an hour, accounting for setup and breakdown time.) You're going to be limited by your network, mostly, as a single Xserve/NetRestore combo will tear through 20-40 machines at once, depending on image and client hardware (faster drives equals faster imaging).

    Tips:

    - Automate the shit out of it. NetRestore can run post-flight shell scripts and adjust computer/Rendezvous name on the way into the image process. You just gotta set it up.

    - Gigabitgigabitgigabit. If you don't have a gigE uplink to the server, prepare for some /pain./

    - Put your NetBoot image on one physical drive and your image(s) on another. Maximize those channels.

    - Visit macosxlabs.org and read as much as you can before you start. They've been there, done it, and own the t-shirt factory.

    NetRestore and NetRestore Helper are great tools, and should be just fine for 125 units.

  • It's called 'dd'. (Score:1, Redundant)

    by aminorex ( 141494 )
    You can boot a CD, mount a network drive, and
    dd a disk image over the hard drive. I recommend
    a Knoppix PPC live cd.
    • Reading this, I think I wasn't explicit enough:
      I'm suggesting daisy-chaining the imaging process.
      Pop in the CDs in order, boot the machines in order, and start the dd from the upstream machine
      in order. You'd want to adapt the Live CD image
      to mount the finished disk and set host, network parameters
      according to MAC address from a table.
    • AFAIR dd also duplicates the factory defects and the grown defects lists when used on whole drives - pretty bad behaviour for different hard disks...

  • Netrestore (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jfunkk99 ( 809617 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:44PM (#10114816)
    http://www.bombich.com/

    We imaged 1500 Powerbooks in 4 days using an Xserve and NetRestore. The image was about 5 GB I believe and we averaged about 20 mins a machine with 25 going at once. There should be enough on the forums to get you started.

  • Easy, non automated way (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:54PM (#10114884)
    I use this method a high turn around, needed-it-yesterday rental house. Granted I only need to do about 10-15 systems at a time, but this non-automated way to 'Clone' Mac systems may be helpful.

    Server:
    - OS X 10.3 Server NetBooting 10.3 with Diskless option selected
    - A network accessible shared folder.

    Client:
    Any Mac configured exactly the way you want it.

    To make the Master image:

    NetBoot your template machine and use Disk Utility to 'Make Image' of the host computers HD - Save image to your shared folder.

    NetBoot your target system. Make accessible your disk image that you saved in your shared folder.

    Use Disk Utility to format its hard drive.

    Use Disk Utility to do a 'Restore' using the image as the 'Source' and the Mac HD as the target.

    Wash, rinse, repeat.

    Things to consider:

    Machine specific components, processor speed differences, etc. Make new images for different processor class machines. (i.e., Dual 1 Gig has much different architecture than a Dual 1.25, but the 1.25 is very similar to the 1.42 (FW800 on both).

    Safest bet is to make an image for each config/machine variation.

    A 2 gig image takes me about 20 Minutes. Be mindful that system speed and disk configuration will greatly affect performance.

    For more speed: RAID 0
    For redundancy: RAID 1
    For balance: RAID 5

    Your network architecture also plays a vital role, especially when attempting simultaneous restores. Most all Macs come with GigE now. If your IT budget can swing it, I would highly recommend picking one up (a GigE switch that is).

    Even if you use some of the other software recommendations, hard disk speed, network architecture and superfluous demand on the system will all play a big role the time it takes to complete.

    There are many ways to stream line this process, however this is what I need and this is what I do. I am always looking for new ways to automate and make easier the restore process.

    Already have Ghosting down to a science on the PC side of things.

    ----

    It's live long and PROSPER, not THRIVE...

  • No multicast way (Score:2, Informative)

    by emerrill ( 110518 )
    I administer a couple Mac labs at a university, and best I know, there is no multicast way to push it. I would think one could be written tho, in the way of ghost.

    Every machine boots from a CD or, the net install boot system, then an application launch that then sycns up with a multicast system. Overall much the same way as ghost. Hmm... maybe a new programming project.

  • I know of a .... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Creepy Crawler ( 680178 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @01:20AM (#10115322)
    ..Hick High school that does everything "multicast"....

    Their whole network is BNC longhauls and 10bt to every computer. They thought hubs were "better" cause they were cheaper. They have 1 collision domain...and the network is real easy to "Snoop".

    Quite sad....
  • ... But for a small set of computers Carbon Copy Cloner [bombich.com] works nicely.

    Problem is there's no network install, only local disks. (Hence the subject line...)

  • It's a Mac... (Score:4, Informative)

    by the hopthrisC ( 19257 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @04:27AM (#10115972)
    Everything you need is already there:

    http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/netboot.html [apple.com]
  • You should be able to get this to work on your gentoo live CDs. I'm not sure about it working in OSX:

    http://www.emulab.net/software.php3 [emulab.net]

    Even in whole disk mode, this thing is scorching. I've not seen anything commercial or free that touches it in terms of speed. The whole thing is multithreaded. I use it for restoring PCs on a test bench after regression testing. In fs-aware mode it'll restore a ~5Gb file system in a matter of about 4-5 minutes.

    -Peter

  • You're doing something seriously wrong (Score:4, Insightful)

    by plsuh ( 129598 ) <plsuh&goodeast,com> on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @09:42AM (#10117495) Homepage
    You didn't say if 200 minutes is per machine or for the whole shooting match; If it's for the whole school then 3.5 hours of work once per semester is no big deal, give it a rest. You'll waste more time tweaking it than you save doing it. If it's per machine then you're doing something seriously wrong.

    I manage a lab of 30 machines, and we use NetRestore to wipe them on a weekly basis from a G4 XServe. The switch is only 100 Base-T, so we're bandwidth limited to about 5 or 6 machines at a time. Even so, imaging one machine takes about 10 minutes, and the whole lab is done in under an hour. If the switch had a GigE uplink for the XServe then the whole process would take twenty minutes.

    Check out the numerous links that others have posted to macosxlabs.org and asr, and good luck with it.

    --Paul
  • I'm sure someone already posted this, but you'll probably find everything you need to know here:

    http://www.macosxlabs.org/

    No offense to the slashdotters, but you'll probably find this link more useful than any of the posts here. It's chock full-o-goodness with people who make it happen in real-world situations rather than an unruly group of independent pundits.

    Hope this helps!

    .

  • For fully automated restores, add Apple Remote Desktop to Netrestore in full automation mode. From one machine you select which ones you want to restore and set their startup disk to netboot the NetRestore image and restart the machines. NetRestore will image the machine, set the startup disk back to the hard drive and restart the machine. It can also name the machine if you want. DHCP makes configurations a little easier too.

    One thing we've done is partitioned the hard drive into two partitions, a 15-20GB

  • The question is about IP MULTICAST cloning options! NetRestore, CCC, and asr are all UNICAST solutions.

    Why do I even waste me time reading Slashdot comments....
  • You may want to look into a company called Altiris. (www.altiris.com) They are adding new Mac features to their already robust management toolset all the time. Even though they may not specifically mention mac imaging support I'm fairly sure I've heard of Mac users successfully using Altiris to image their machines. The company is definatly worth a look as their support for educational institutions got them where they are today.

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