Employees Rights in an Emergency? 174
Waiting-for-Ivan asks: "In Florida in the past month and a half, we have survived 2 hurricanes. During the last one I was within the areas with a hurricane warning (i.e. hurricane conditions are expected within 24 hours). My company (who will remain unnamed) wanted everyone to come in. Those who did not come in had their pay docked (salary or hourly didn't matter) and threatened with loss of their pay for Labor Day. We are not an emergency facility whose services are required during an emergency. Is this legal? Can they make us come in during a hurricane warning (or any other environmental emergency) and if we refuse can they punish us for not doing so? Do we as employees have any rights (and can they dock salaried employees so easily)? What laws are in affect explaining these circumstances?
depends (Score:2)
there should be explicit laws about that in your area.
Re:depends (Score:2)
Re:depends (Score:3)
Looks like you don't have any, but... (Score:5, Informative)
It is implied on this page [miamidade.gov] that they don't HAVE to give you the day off. It reads:
Judging by that, it's more of a suggestion than a requirement... But I also found this on this page [law.com]:
So, it sounds like people are suing for being forced to work during the hurricane, which might be a slightly different situation than yours.
Sounds to me like your employer is just a major league ahole, and you might not be able to do anything about it.
Re:Looks like you don't have any, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
I know someone who works in the Miami-Dade school district, and apparently all the teachers were asked to go in to work on Friday (the kids were told not to come in, though). I think the public schools are handled differently from the rest of the county, but nevertheless, it's still sounded a bit ridiculous.
Re:Looks like you don't have any, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
But not every time (or even most times) the school is closed. Most of the time it's closed and no one is supposed to show up.
Re:Looks like you don't have any, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
The rationale for this discrepancy is that children and teenagers are at greater risk than adults during bad weather. When conditions are bad enough that other employers are telling their people to stay home, schools usually do the same with theirs.
Workers' rights? (Score:4, Insightful)
Rights???? (Score:2, Insightful)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
oh stop, you're killing me.
Re:Rights???? (Score:2, Insightful)
If he's smart he'll use it and explain to his boss why he's leaving.
Varies by state (Score:5, Informative)
It's a weasely thing to do but there's probably not anything you can do about it.
Re:Varies by state (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Varies by state (Score:2)
Isn't obeying a government order to stay off the roads unless you're an emergency response person something "explicitly covered by law"?
Re:Right to Work? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Right to Work? (Score:2)
"Right to Work" is a political euphemism for ... (Score:4, Informative)
In a free country, people should be free to choose whether to join a labor union.
Re:Right to Work? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Right to Work? (Score:4, Insightful)
Negotiating the terms of my employment is *my* right...I'd rather have a choice in how I do it. You like unions, and that's fine...don't assume that everyone else finds them a perfect fit.
Re:Right to Work? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Right to Work? (Score:3, Interesting)
The very existence of corporations is a state intervention.
If a bunch of people want to form a business, and draw up some contracts to that effect, all well and good. But creating an artifical immortal legal "person" with all the rights but few of the responsibilities of genuine humans, that shields the partners from liability for their actions? That's a huge intervention in the marketplace. It's just one that's been
Similar situation last year (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd been working there all of a month, or I probably would have contacted a lawyer. If it happens again, I'll definitely be exploring a class-action suit. In a state of emergency, when it's not safe to go to work, it's completely unreasonable to expect employees to come in. If it's not illegal, it ought to be. If I were you, I'd contact a lawyer.
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm just curious, what the hell does 'Paid Time Off' in your company mean? Does it cut off your vacation hours, or something? Over here (So. Cal.) it seems to be the time to charge on your timecard for the times when you can not work due to some external circumstances and the company is _paying_ for your _time_off_, thus 'Paid'... Do they have any other definition in the "blizzard-experiencing "
Paul B.
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:4, Interesting)
I can't speak for Dr.Evil, but "Paid Time Off" at my employer is any time you take off from work and expect to be paid. That means sick time, vacation, and emergencies.
On 9/11, just about everyone in IT who had direct reports sent all of their subordinates home, since we were all just running to whoever's browser managed to get through to cnn.com or wherever. The next day, there was a company-wide email from HR saying that Yes, yes, it's quite a tragedy, but anyone sent home without at least director-level approval had to use PTO to make up the time not in the office. I was one of the lucky ones in that case, but there were a lot of pissed off people in other parts of the building.
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:5, Insightful)
If I am told by my boss to take the day off, then I will expect to be paid. If it is a problem for the company then it is their problem if they cannot control the chain of command.
If a company doesn't accept it, then I suspect that all employees getting director level confirmation of any management request will soon cure them of that silliness and make them more consistent in their interpretation of the command chain
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:2)
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:2)
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:2, Interesting)
We had a scheduled power outage a few weeks back at my company... nothing special, the power company were just replacing a local transformer or something, scheduled to take most of the day.
Everyone here got the day off, with pay.
Funny thing was, the power company decided on the day that the maintenance couldn't be done until a couple of weeks later!
At least that time it was out of office hours...
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:2)
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:2)
Last year, we experienced a blizzard so severe that the city issued tickets to any non-emergency vehicles on the road. The power at the building was also knocked out. Yet when we got back to work, we were expected to make up the time or use Paid Time Off. The excuse made by management was, "Sometimes you have to use you PTO benefit for the company's benefit."
My answer would have been "Sure, I'll start that as soon as you use your profits to buy me a car."
Labor Unions; the only thing betwe
Labor Unions; the only thing between us getting be (Score:4, Insightful)
But IMHO, there's a class of people that can smell money, and insinuate themselves into money flows. Some time ago, they smelled Union Dues, and the res is, sadly, history. Also unfortunately, some time back they began to smell Health Care, too.
Re:Labor Unions; the only thing between us getting (Score:2)
That probably doesn't smell very good, however. I know hospitals always seem to smell funky to me....
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:3, Informative)
As for retaliation for not risking your life for a non emergency-critical job, Them's probably lawsuit words.
In Canada, I think that most provinces have rules that don't allow employers to force employes to put their safety at r
Re:Similar situation last year (Score:2)
I left early (Score:5, Interesting)
The good news is that I hated that job and I quit today anyhow. (they're sleazy snakes) all in all, F any employer that asks you to stand in harms way so they can make a buck. If more people took this approach employers would have to be more considerate. I'd guess your employer is a publicly traded company, where Money is the only diety.
Re:I left early (Score:2)
Talk to an employment lawyer about this! (Score:5, Informative)
That being said, TALK TO A LAWYER ABOUT THIS. You should be able to get at least a reasonably cheap 15-30 minute consult to get the answer you need. Also, talk to the appropriate parts of your state's government, ie THESE GUYS [state.fl.us].
Hope that helps.
-jason
Call your state attorney (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Call your state attorney (Score:2)
What about the hidden costs of having you come in? (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess it's harder to quantify human resources, enthusiasm, and loyalty than missed hours...
Re:What about the hidden costs of having you come (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What I found (Score:4, Informative)
The Sun-Sentinel has an article! [sun-sentinel.com] Here's a snippet:
So apparently there's nothing in law, but you might be able to put a little fear in your employers pants by calling the hurricane hotline. Good luck!Re:What I found (Score:2)
(yeah I would guess that even in the mighty usa you have work safety regulations that must be met!)
Re:What I found (Score:5, Interesting)
Employers Could Face Civil, Criminal Liabilities [local10.com]
POSTED: 6:17 pm EDT September 4, 2004
MIAMI -- Some employees concerned about being forced to go to work have contacted Local 10 for answers.
Local 10 has received e-mails and phone calls from people who say they are being forced to leave their homes to go to work even though the area is under hurricane evacuation order.
Saturday, State Attorney Katherine Fernandez-Rundle and Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas addressed those concerns.
Penelas reiterated that no one should be out on the highways and no employer should be forcing employees to go to work unless they are "essential" workers such as medical care workers or law enforcement officers.
Fernandez-Rundle told Local 10's Michael Putney that employers who ignore the county's request and won't do it "for good will and to protect others" should obey the request because they could face both civil and criminal liabilities if an employee is hurt due to being out in th
e storm.
Re:What I found (Score:2)
A non-essential company that's sleezy enough to force people to come in during a hurricane warning, when the government is telling people to stay home or otherwise seek shelter, probably isn't going to be that worried about could and if. If they think they can make money, and the odds of an employee being hurt are low, they'll do it.
Why should the company have to pay you? (Score:3, Insightful)
The question is
Re:Why should the company have to pay you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why should the company have to pay you? (Score:2)
Re:Why should the company have to pay you? (Score:2)
In some cases, it is though. (See my post above)
Re:Why should the company have to pay you? (Score:2)
(Score: -5, Missing The Point)
If you want "don't work, don't pay" terms, you're welcome to them. I believe you'll find contractors' rates start at roughly 2.5x the equivalent salaried worker's. That's because contractors have to cover their own days off, health insurance, etc. etc.
If you want to pay the cheaper rate, accept that you're responsible for basics like sick/vacation pay, accept that it is irresponsible to require employees to attend under these circumstances, and pay up.
Why should they? (Score:4, Insightful)
It would be a totally different matter if they had said you would loose your job if you didn't come in.
Re:Why should they? (Score:2)
THAT I find reprehensible. If you're hourly, you may have the opportunity to make up lost wages by working extra hours, overtime, etc. Salaried workers have no such recourse.
I *can* see requiring the use of a vacation/sick day for the day(s) taken. In fact, I think I'd expect that.
But all that being said, it would be a nice gesture - nice, but not required - for the company to show some compassion for those affected by th
Re:Why should they? (Score:2)
Since we know nothing about the company with this policy I would shy away from calling it reprehensible. Who knows, maybe its a small company on the brink. Having said company cover all the costs of a natural disaster is much different then a larger corporation.
Ideally a company would think first about its employees and tell them to stay home and take care of business. I know mine would.
Sounds like a proxy complaint. (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't be - a fourth of all computer guys are on the streets out of a job and this guy is publicly bitching about whether or not his employer should pay him a full day's wages if he doesn't come in because of the hurricane
Re:Why should they? (Score:3, Insightful)
Otherwise, they should the back-pay for unpaid overtime.
Re:Why should they? (Score:2)
Of course you'd soon be fired but
Everytime I hear someone joke about (Score:4, Funny)
My concern here is that you aren't patriotic enough if you are asking such a question. Stop whinning. It is your patriotic duty to go to work rain or shine. It is important that you work unpaid overtime and even volunteer nights and week ends. Don't complain about your salary either, otherwise we'll outsource your job you unpatriotic-GDP-lowering-French-lover-commie.
Re:You Ignorant Fuck (Score:2)
Who's blowing his whistle now?
Employment At Will (Score:4, Insightful)
If the government is allowed to set down terms and conditions for when your company is allowed to fire you, what's to stop them from setting down terms and conditions for when you're allowed to quit? Sorry, you can't quit this week, a Hurricane is coming we need every able bodied employee available to stack sandbags. Quitting now would cause "excessive loss of profit" to the company and the "Protect our Jobs Act of 2004" says that's illegal. Try again next week, after the flood subsides.
No thanks. Employment at will means at their will, and yours. If you don't like the job requirements, quit. Get off your ass and find a better job. The market is picking up anyway.
Re:Employment At Will (Score:5, Insightful)
So you think the terms of your job should be "protected" by the government, huh?
They already are, in many ways. For example, your employer is bound by the Civil Rights Act, OSHA, Fair Labor Standards Act, the Pension Protection Act, Disability, Workers Comp, Unemployment Insurance and so on. Under the FLSA if you are a salaried employee you probably cannot be docked in pay for anything less than a full day absence. Docking your pay beyond that is likely to be a violation of the FLSA and you should contact a lawyer or your state department of labor.
Re:Employment At Will (Score:2)
Of course, once on the job for 90 days, it's much harder for you to be dismissed without cause. This is so pervasive that you can't get approved for a mortgage within the first 90 days of starting a new job: kind of makes relocation a drag.
Conditions aren't so bad (Score:2)
The alternative plan -- having both sides make certain commitments beyond "I can walk out of the deal any time I like" -- can work as well.
Here in the UK, it's normal for both parties to have to give one month's notice before terminating a contract of employment (or, often, 1 week per completed year for longer-term employees). That means employees always have a reasonable chance to find a new job if they're made redundant, and it also protects employers when employees decide to move on, giving them a "mar
Thank your employer (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Thank your employer (Score:2)
I could be wrong, though. it IS 6am
What they should have done.... (Score:2, Insightful)
The company you work for has a serious problem, and as many others have said before, go see a lawyer about this. The company I work for found a way to keep it's employees safe while maintaining productivity by providing VPN capibilities to us, and having non essentials telecommute when the weather gets bad. (It also makes life easier when I get that 2a support call)
Additionally it may not be a bad idea to search for a new job where your safety is a concern for the company...
Look to baseball (Score:2)
--Stephen
It's slimy, no doubt about it (Score:3, Interesting)
Somehow, for Y2K, my employer managed to convince the county that all of us in IT were "critical" should there be any emergency, and we got stickers to put on our company IDs stating that in the case of an emergency, the police were to allow us to travel. What a load of BS. Nothing happened, fortunately.
My route to work now takes me through one of the most snow-prone sections of the state twice a day. I've already told my manager that once winter comes, if things look ugly, I'll be working from home or taking a PTO day. No job is worth putting my life at risk trying to drive through white-out conditions. Lots of employers like to say "take care of yourself and your family first" - let's see if they actually mean it.
Docking people for not coming in during a hurricane? That's just underhanded & sleazy. Get out of that job, management clearly doesn't consider the employees people, but rather slaves.
Glad I live in California (Score:2)
Re:Glad I live in California (Score:2)
Though my company sent us home during the fires, but the fire department would have done it anyway.
Work during the Earthquake!
Labor department (Score:2)
Docking of Pay (Score:3, Interesting)
Find out your employment stats by talking with your HR department. They can tell you if you are classified excepmpt under the "Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)".
If you are exempt, and your pay has been docked, you have a clear legal case. If you are non-exempt, then your employer is just a jerk.
Re:Docking of Pay (Score:2)
Re:Docking of Pay (Score:2, Insightful)
Look at it from their perpective (Score:3, Insightful)
When everyone in the facility ups and walks out at once, processes grind to a halt, money is not made. Worse, some processes may not be as simple to restart as merely flipping the on switch. The day's a dead loss from the company's perspective. Expecting on top of that, that they absorb the damage of paying you (and everybody else) for work you weren't there to do, is adding insult to injury.
Re:Look at it from their perpective (Score:2)
Re:Look at it from their perpective (Score:2)
Ask you union (Score:3, Informative)
Pragmatism (Score:2)
Pragmatism says that when a hurricane is headed your way, get the hell out of the area! Duh!
Perhaps not the best place to ask. (Score:2)
This is
three novel suggestions... (Score:5, Informative)
1. PUBLICITY...
Find out which other workplaces (near yours) are/aren't doing the same as your employer.
Even better, get friendly with people at other jobs who have the same problem.
Then all of you call the local TV news shows, radio talk-shows, and newspapers, and ask them to do a story publicizing the situation and the names of the offending employers.
And after the storm is over, DO post the names of those employers anonymously on some very public forums, and then anonymously email links (to those threads) to the head of personnel and the CEO.
If it's a publicly-traded company, find out which socially-conscious funds are investors -- especially union pension funds, California state employee pension funds, etc.
Anonymously tell the funds about the story, and cc your message to your CEO, AND to your corporation's department of investor relations.
2. Ask your doctor to give you some sedatives because of the extra "anxiety" caused by the coming storm. Call in sick because you're impaired by the tranquilizers. They can't deny your sick-pay.
3. Have a slip-and-fall injury in their parking lot, due to the bad weather. Get sick-time off. Better yet, get disability pay and workmen's-comp.
Better yet, sue their asses if you're hurt badly enough (btw, this is another idea for point #1: tell the company's liability insurer about what the company is doing).
Re:three novel suggestions... (Score:2)
Another small difference between the US & Euro (Score:2)
So last year wa
seems like... (Score:2)
Two Separate Issues (Score:2)
Emergencies and Inconveniences (Score:2, Interesting)
Several hurricanes and nor'easters and snowstorms have limited access to our offices. Even last w
What's this "Employee Rights" thing I hear about? (Score:2)
I might not like it, but I can understand it. We have "full cost accounting," you might say. Almost everyone works on contracts for other companies or the government. These other companies aren't going to pay for hours (or days) of work they don't receive and my company does not have money to make cover it. Where is the money for unworked time supposed to come from? We do hav
Overhead (Score:2)
The situation for bad weather is worse on overhead. There just isn't enough overhead to pay everyone for a day or two. Again, this happens so infrequently that I
Re:Overhead (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? You work for a large defence contractor, who are essentially acting as nothing but a middleman to subcontract you to their own customers, and you think they're not taking several times your hourly rate from their customers for your services? I suspect you're being had! If the company isn't providing security for you as an employer, why don't you just do the contract work directly for the client, at the significantly higher charge-
Um, yeah (Score:2)
Is this good for the company?
Here in Upper-East Tennessee, we have the opposite (Score:2, Funny)
Come to Quebec ! (Score:2, Interesting)
Otherwise, a solution can be to join the local branch of the IWW [iww.org], which is mainly an open membership union, which can help you for f
hurricanes and business (Score:2, Interesting)
not if evey choice is the same (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:not if evey choice is the same (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, they lose all that goodwill by forcing us to take Christmas week off unpaid (or take FTO) every year. Its nice to have the option, but I'd rather take my week off some other time.
Re:Yes... you can seek employment somewere else (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Yes... you can seek employment somewere else (Score:3, Insightful)
The "if you don't like it, take your skills elsewhere" argument is one of my biggest
Will a person always succeed at changing things? Certainly not
Re:Yes... you can seek employment somewere else (Score:2)
Re:Yes... you can seek employment somewere else (Score:3, Interesting)
Problem with market competition? One simple law fixes that- if you want to sell goods or services int he US, you must follow US labor, polution, etc laws (or highe
Re:Yes... you can seek employment somewere else (Score:2)
Unless you're a senior exectuive, there is no field left to switch to.