PhD's in the Industry? 86
Taylor Flagg asks: "I'm about to finish up with my bachelor's in Computer Science, and am looking into graduate school options. My advisor is persuading me to go right into the PhD program but I know I don't want to be stuck lecturing for the rest of my life. Are companies in the industry hiring PhDs, and if so, what are their roles and is anything different expected of them (aside from making more cash)?"
Re:PhD (Score:5, Insightful)
After four years of real schooling, you'd think most graduates would know whether they want 2-4 more years of the same...
I have only one piece of concrete advice, and that is to make up your mind NOW. Don't decide to pick up school again 15 years down the road -- that is a waste of time, resources, and effort. Education is for the young.
Other than that, my only advice is the standard "follow your heart" pitch. Don't continue school unless you seriously enjoy it, or have an equally serious desire for extra cash
Re:PhD (Score:5, Insightful)
By the sounds of the original poster's question, I would definitely encourage him/her to NOT go into grad school. If you're not sure that you want to go, then you -don't- want to go, period. Grad school is a huge commitment and a lot of work. If you know deep in your heart that it's where you belong and it's what you have to be doing, you can survive and even enjoy it and feel good about it. Otherwise, it's a major drag and you hate every minute of it.
I'm a grad student right now, and I'm *loving* every (atrociously difficult, mind-bending) minute of it. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, but it's worth it. A couple of my friends are here for the career benefit they perceive, not because they truly want to do it. They are miserable, depressed, and they can't wait to just get out of here.
Do not go now just because you think you will never have the chance again and you don't want to miss it. Wait. If there comes a time in your life when you feel driven to go to grad school, THEN do it and forget all the naysayers. If it never comes, then don't look back.
Funny enough, a good two thirds of my fellow grad students are returning to school after anywhere from 2 to 10 to 30 years of working. Most of us are here for the love of it. A few have returned for career boosts, and they're the most miserable.
Re:PhD (Score:1)
Re:PhD (Score:2)
It is never "impossible" to complete grad school -- that's just an e
For industry, get a PhD in something else (Score:4, Interesting)
For a career in industry, either start working now, or get a PhD in another area.
It worked for me... (PhD in Mathematics, professional programmer for 8 years now).
Re:For industry, get a PhD in something else (Score:2)
Get your BSCS, BSEE, or whatever. While in college, try to gain as much knowledge and as many internships and "odd computer jobs" as possible. Spend a lot of time in the library, gaining as much depth and breadth as you can in your field. Write database-driven Linux-based web code for fun and profit. If you're single, you probably have an enormous amount of time a
Re:For industry, get a PhD in something else (Score:2, Insightful)
PhDs useful for exciting research? (Score:2)
A generation ago, when I was an undergrad, the Computer Science department at my University was sufficiently pressed finding PhDs that other departments within
Re:For industry, get a PhD in something else (Score:2)
On top of all that, you can really clean up with a Ph.D. in computer science. Even the post-docs in our computer sc
here... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:here... (Score:2)
At the same time, I know that Google has a large number of PhDs doing research; where does it acquire them? Is there a secret jobs-for-really-smart-people page somewhere on their web site?
Re:here... (Score:2)
I know that Google has a large number of PhDs doing research; where does it acquire them?
They do one of two things: they either ask around and find someone who knows someone, or they hire a headhunter. I doubt they'd actually post a job req for that sort of thing.
Re:here... (Score:1)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?st
Nice new job recruiting strategy.
Re:here... (Score:2)
I'm not sure that I believe that. It really looks more to me like a publicity stunt.
Any time they throw one of these billboards up, people jump all over the problems and the answers get posted all over the web. The people who end up responding to these are predominantly not smart people who solved them independently; rather, they are lucky people who happen to be traversing the right forums when the solutio
You'd be surprised (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You'd be surprised (Score:3, Interesting)
It's been my perception that higher level degree folks go to the big companies. The jobs there are more focused and the large companies can pay the large paychecks and give good benefits. To be honest, you can keep them.
I personally love the small company I work for. Great people, awesome environment, lots of room for career development where you can do what you want instead o
Re:You'd be surprised (Score:2)
Probably depends on the size of the company. I work for a corporation that has thousands of employees. I have an MS in software, about 4 of my co-workers have PhDs (though not in CS/software engineering) and I'm slightly senior to them. Now we do have research departments that are highly populated by (mostly biochemistry) PhDs, but in the SW dept, there isn't a lot of differenti
phd vs CCIE (Score:5, Interesting)
I love research. I could play with hilbert spaces and QED all day, even if that requires putting up with the odd lecture. But I know for more $$$ I'd aim for the CCIE if heading for IT, or EE if heading out in Physics.
I can think of many places where a CS PhD will be useful but those markets are small. Think of the data scientists at CERN, raking in the data using rooms and rooms of server farms, obtaining data at terabytes per second, and processing it in real time. For that stuff, you need CCIEs, CS PhDs and Math PhDs. Also at places like Google I'd imaging.
Not at your run of the mill IT house, or corp that needs an IT dept though.
Re:phd vs CCIE (Score:3, Insightful)
But I have known some worthless PhD's and some pretty smart Cisco Guys, so maybe the comparison is apt.
I just have a bachelor's, these thoughts are way above my pay grade...
Re:phd vs CCIE (Score:3, Informative)
Consider the amount of time and effort required to get a doctorate versus a properly earned CCIE. Theyre about the same.
Sure, this being IT, youll find 20 year olds with the CCIE, just as youll find 14 year olds with the MCSE, but the PhD needs you to go through the course of time. Youre right about the dumb PhDs and smart cisco guys too.
The thing is, cisco has really been jacking up the difficulty of their certs increasing their value, and in the market, geeks truly obsessed in their own fields head more
Re:phd vs CCIE (Score:1)
But I guess, you were referring to: PhD - many disciplines (and specialize in one), CCIE - already specific to one discipline?
It will probably do you more harm than good . (Score:5, Interesting)
First off, you will probably expect higher compensation than someone fresh out of school. When I look at what you will be asking for starting salary, you will be competing with some fairly seasoned veterans out there. I'll very quickly go on to your real world experience - and compare that to someone who has been doing this for many years. You don't stand much of a chance.
Secondly, I'll have a strong suspicion that you will probably move on to another gig once you do get that real world experience under your belt. It costs a fair bit to ramp up a new employee. Again, I suspect the extra years of groveling on a pittance of a salary will leave you expecting a big payout.
Lastly, I'll wonder if you can really do the work. Even if your graduate work truly was world-class stuff, it will be hard to get past the 'it was only in school / hobby' status.
There are exceptions out there... some shops are very focused on the sciences, and a PhD would be considered the norm. These places tend to be the exception rather than the rule. I have worked in shops where they would specifically target physics post grads because they would be *happy* to work for half of what others expect. Not saying it is right...
Re:It will probably do you more harm than good& (Score:1)
what "shops" are these (so that I can avoid 'em)?
Re:It will probably do you more harm than good& (Score:3, Insightful)
In contrast many employers appreciate an employee who earns a PhD while on the job. Part time graduate work is quite common. Even the few R&D shops that really appreciate PhDs seem to prefer PhDs earned while on the job over fresh PhDs.
Re:It will probably do you more harm than good (Score:4, Informative)
That's the key right there. If you've got a PhD, don't go applying for web development or desktop administration. On the other hand, my company is hiring PhDs right now to program digital signal processing. We make embedded medical imaging systems, and we've even hired MDs to do SQA testing! My immediate boss has a PhD from Brown. With only a bachelors degree, and a bachelor of *arts* at that, I feel like the dumb guy at my job.
You *do* know how to interview, right? (Score:2)
If you aren't asking the applicant to actually do some of the same type of work in the interview that they'd do on the job, you are wasting everyone's time.
Please tell me you have something more than "So... I see that ... you worked at Acme, Inc ... for 2 years ... Do you know... HTML? ... Hmmm... where do you see yourself in five years? ... What is your greatest weakness? ... (etc)"
Re:You *do* know how to interview, right? (Score:2)
Re:It will probably do you more harm than good& (Score:4, Insightful)
PhDs are definately hired, but usually right into a management position. Also, you will end up looking at different type of jobs, usually research related rather than simple a progammer or similar.
Only hiring PhDs:
http://www.research.att.com/areas/stat/res
Again, mostly PhDs only:
http://domino.research.ibm.com/hr/research
Note the mention of 'postdoctoral-researcher' at the bottom of each job description:
http://research.microsoft.com/about
Again, *requiring* PhDs:
http://www.caprion.com/content/careers/bio
And I could go on and on. Basically you will be looking at totally different types of jobs. Jobs that the parent can't even get! And yes, they will pay you well. But no, you can't get a job doing basic programming easily. You are over qualified.
Re:It will probably do you more harm than good... (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps I sound a bit bitter, because I am... I was a bioinformaticist, who slowly devolved to a soulless code whore (and then worse) when the money
Something Good (Score:5, Informative)
It's by a guy who got his doctorate and he discusses reasons to do so or not to do so. Hope it helps!
enjoying the process (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:enjoying the process (Score:2)
That assumes that working extremely hard on a job will earn you a higher salary than those that don't work quite so hard. There's no guarantee of that. Bad luck, office politics, or economic conditions can have you back on the street no matter how hard you work.
At least with a degree you basically understand what the requirements are and if you achieve them you'll g
Re:enjoying the process (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:enjoying the process (Score:2)
Re:enjoying the process (Score:2)
Go into industry (Score:2)
My experience with academics is that they are generally very disconnected from reality. During my undergrad (97-01), most every major software development project was an interpretter or a compiler for some simple language. During the peak of the internet boom, we didn't even have a class on web development. I'm not sure if we have one gea
Re:Go into industry (Score:3, Insightful)
That's your fault then. You should call them Computer Scientists not software developers. Computer Science is the theoretical aspect of computers such as classifying languages, developing new paradigms, and developing more theories. Computer Science is not meant for "practical" usage. If you want someon
Re:Go into industry (Score:2)
The numero uno objective of the computer science program at Ohio State i
Re:Go into industry (Score:2)
Re:Go into industry (Score:1)
Get it. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Get it. (Score:2)
I would argue that you are expressing a very strong bias on multiple points here. What do you consider satisfying and interesting? Personally, I derive satisfaction in pursuing a breadth of knowledge, not just in different computer related topics like administration and development, but in areas like design, business, marketting, and relationships. Many small businesses allow
Re:Get it. (Score:2)
Yes and no. The other thing to say about getting a PhD is that it is an indication to any potential employer that you are both intelligent and also able to follow through on a project. This is also why companies also require a BS: The ability to meet standards and follow through. Is this concept always right? No. But, you have a lot better chance of finding an intelligent employee if they have a BS or MS or PhD, it shows they are directe
That's actually a very tough question (Score:5, Interesting)
Companies also don't like people who are likely to move to a competitor or who might become a competitor. That is threatening - and I can understand why. As a result, people who are "too smart" can get left on the shelf, because they are perceived as being a danger to those who might hire them.
Related to this is an atmosphere of companies not wanting to hire someone who is "over-qualified". Such people are seen as likely to move on at the first opportunity, wasting the company's investment in training them to do the job they were hired for.
Those are the negatives, but as I mentioned right at the start, there are positives. An experienced and well-educated employee can be trusted to do the job right. That's one reason certifications are popular. They "prove" (in theory, anyway) that the person is competent.
A skilled employee, especially in an R&D division, may very well generate revenue by producing cheaper, quicker, easier processes. They're also a primary source of "Intellectual Property" and patents. Given the choice, companies prefer to make money than to give it to one of their rivals.
PhDs are also relatively rare. The value of the degree, as a degree, is relatively small. But its uniqueness draws attention. That makes it a very powerful tool, when you've a saturated job market. Being seen, when you've a few thousand people vying for the same job, is critical if you are to get even to the stage of an interview.
Finally, although "academia" is relatively poorly paid (fools that Governments are), academics are valued in industry, where the money is much more forthcoming. Why? Because academics can give a project much more credibility. A company is expected to spout bullshit and offer vaporware. An academic, especially from places like Harvard or MIT (in the US, Oxford or Cambridge for the UK) is expected to be honest - or, at least, more so. As such, it is not unusual for projects that might raise eyebrows with shareholders or consumers to be carried out by Universities, sponsored in the background by the companies who actually want the work done.
Conclusion? A PhD is a gamble. If it pays off, it'll pay off extremely well and you'll not be short of cash. If it doesn't, then it's cost you a lot of money that you might never earn back. But there's only one way to find out, and that's to give it a try.
Get a Ph.D. if... (Score:4, Insightful)
Even in a field like mine, Philosophy, where a PhD. is required just to get interviewed for a position getting the degree is incredibly difficult and often tedious. In a field where you can get a good job without one there is little incentive to get a PhD. beyond personal desire.
Succinctly, if someone where to ask you, "Why are you in the doctoral program?" Your first answer should be, "Because I can't imagine myself doing anything else." If that isn't your first answer then you should probably do something else.
Re:Get a Ph.D. if... (Score:2)
Whole different perspective (Score:3, Insightful)
Even comparing 1st year with 4th year. In 1st year, we would go through 1 chapter of a textbook a month. In 4th year, it was about 1 chapter per week. These days, I try to get through 1 technical book a month and 1 non-technical book a month. That's on top of the 50 hour work weeks that I put in.
It's just a whole different ball game. If you continuely challenge yourself, you will adapt.
Btw, this is not a knock against academia. Do what you love. Do what challenges you. If that happens to be academia, go with academia.
Masters degrees can be fun (Score:4, Insightful)
If you aren't drooling over those courses like I was, I can't recommend post-grad work at all.
If you also don't know you want that PhD, but you are drooling over the course descriptions, consider a Masters. My institution offered a course-only Masters program, and I took that, because I looked around and I thought the Masters projects were a joke, and I figured I was better off working on my own. Can't say if I was right yet but it has at least been fun.
Re:Masters degrees can be fun (Score:2)
Re:Masters degrees can be fun (Score:2)
[Jumping up and down] Me too!! me too!!
Substitute "Software Engineering" for "computer Science" and you'd have the same thought that sent me off to grad school.
It wasn't a means to an end, it was the means itself that interested me. Now that I completed my degree, it's nice that my employer recognized it by giving me a raise & a promotion (I think it was at least in part due to t
Certainly consider the option (Score:2)
It also depends on the nature of what you'll be doing in the program. Software engineers vs Computer Scientists. Very few companies need the kind of expertise a PhD provides in CS. You should probably be looking for who they are. Essentially, you'd be workin
Not a good reason to do one. (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it worth having a PhD? I did mine because I was told by someone I respected that if I didn't do it then I would always be someone's assistant rather than ever get to lead my own research. This is true within academia but is less true in the commercial world. If anything, a PhD can make you less employable because you may be seen as too expensive, too 'brainy' or too much of a threat to the higher ups. If you think about getting into management the MBA people are likely to look down on you as a PhD because they will think you are far too interested in research and less interested in making money. This is a sweeping statement I know but it does come from my personal experience.
So, a PhD is hard work, the effect on your pay and job prospects is likely to be minimal unless you want to stay in academia, and people who don't have one will consider you a threat and you may have to hide the fact that you have it. IMHO.
Re:Not a good reason to do one. (Score:2)
Re:Not a good reason to do one. (Score:3, Informative)
When I finished my BSc I had no idea what I wanted to do. The field I was in was in serious decline rather suddenly so I ended up drifting about trying various jobs. I hadn't done well enough at my BSc to qualify for a grant to go onto postgraduate wor
My advice (Score:1, Insightful)
Pharmaceutical industry or chem manufacturing? (Score:2)
If you're better qualified for another aspect of chemistry, like photo chem, plastics or inorganic - then I don't know. You should be able to do OK
You are not limited to academia with a chem PhD - it's VERY hireable.
Re:Pharmaceutical industry or chem manufacturing? (Score:2)
Geez, that's depressing if you're a chem major. The best they can hope for is to live in New Jersey, the armpit of the country? That really sucks.
The same advice I was given two years ago.... (Score:1)
Gov't Service (Score:2)
Re:Gov't Service (Score:2)
His thoughts:
"Working for those guys...you can be the absolute best in the world in what you do, but you can never tell anyone about it."
The NSA would be the same.
He passed.
Ms or PhD? (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if you want to stay at the university, you have to consider that a lot has to do with politics and the chance if you get a professorship depends on this.
I would think you need to do a Ms before starting on a Ph.D., just to get the 'practical' and 'theoretical' background required.
You have to consider that, once you have a Ph.D., the expectations in industry are also larger: if you just want to 'score', go right to industry; if you like a challenge, get the degree (challenge 1) and next fulfill the high expectations of your employers... (challenge 2..n).
And most importantly, don't do it for the money (in any case): do it because you are interested in the field and have a passion for it; you like to dig into a problem where little is known of and you don't get to sleep easily unless you figured out the problem... If you have this, you will not mind the pushing around that much and still love what you are doing and work with collegues with the same passion.
Re:Ms or PhD? (Score:2)
Not about lecturing (Score:2)
There are plenty of jobs outside of academia if/when you want to leave (speaking of PhDs from physics/math/CS ie technical fields)
Get MS along the way (Score:2)
Get a Masters, not a PhD (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Get a Masters, not a PhD (Score:1)
If you try to go part time, your school options will be very limited. Luckily for me there's a local university with a decent CS program, so I can continue to work and pay the bills while I'm trying to further my education. There's no way I could afford to quit my job and go back to school full time.
Also, I could b
One man's experience.... (Score:2, Informative)
Do what you want to do (and Ph. Ds are not alien) (Score:1)
PHD's Yes Minister PHD's (Score:1)
Google and MicroSoft (Score:2)
On the other hand you'll find some companies that wont take a chance with a PhD because they think a PhD wants too much money or feel certain types of work are beneath them.
PHD's? Apostrophes are NEVER ever for plurals. (Score:1)
See: http://www.craz [crazycolour.com]
it's not worth it for the money (Score:2)
How to have a Ph.D. AND a career in software (Score:2)
If your ultimate goal is to write software for a living, but you don't like doing independent research (reading books and journals, pencil & paper research, writing and publishing your research), don't do a Ph.D. You'll be miserable doing it, and if you manage to get through, which is
Academia is the rare path. (Score:1, Insightful)
The result of getting a PhD is two-fold: it teaches you to think/do totally orginal things on your own, and teaches you to focus on one small problem. Those two qualities are universally useful, but