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Education IT

WAN/LAN/VoIP Training Other than Cisco? 106

Posted by Cliff from the budget-safe-educational-options dept.
skeezix-the-cat asks: "After 9/11, the economy tanked, and a lot of state budgets shrank drastically, especially IT budgets. I work for a NOC for a western state with a population as sparse as Wyoming, but not nearly as well connected that was particularly hard hit by the recession. Training money at our agency has been scant, almost non-existent since 2001. Security has seen some bucks, and Windows/Microsoft training of course for the LAN team but general WAN training has suffered. Cisco VoIP training would be swell, and it's everywhere (but in our state). I have one shot at top-shelf training, a week, maybe two. What else is out there as far as LAN/WAN/VoIP training that would cover VoIP and related in a non-Cisco format that still would translate into my Cisco environment?"
"Even with the lack of training, we do ok -- Cisco TAC is nothing to sneeze at, Qwest carrier services techs are available and (IMHO) second to none, and our WAN team is blessedly a talented bunch of self starters. We route, switch, tunnel and bridge just about any whacked out architecture you can think of (but no MPLS yet.....). Our WAN is insane --multi-vendor frame, ATM, private DSL, private-line, lashed to a Sonet-MGX core (among other aggregation schemes), you name it we do it.

It has come to pass that I have a rare opportunity for some honest-to-god paid-for training, and w/ VoIP barreling down on everyone, this is where i'm looking to throw myself with this chance. We are pretty much a Cisco shop, but some agencies are prevailing on non-Cisco VoIP solutions. I have CBWFQ successfully making VoIP work --VoIP 'trunking' switch-attached phones between multi-cloud-connected sites w/ ATM-- across select backwaters of our network, I grok the basics and can even make it work.

I'm no expert, but I'm to the point, having made it work in one or two locations, that I have some nuanced, technique questions even (queueing, etc). If the Cisco training is all that's realistically available, I'll take it and be grateful, be it Cisco VoIP offerings or (jeepers) CIT would be fantastic...arguably better/more useful than the VoIP stuff, per se.

Is anyone out there prevailing on any great WAN/routing/QoS/troubleshooting training that *isn't* Cisco? Management wants me to tell them what I want, and tell them soon as in within the week --before the money evaporates."
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WAN/LAN/VoIP Training Other than Cisco? More

WAN/LAN/VoIP Training Other than Cisco?

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  • compTIA... (Score:3, Informative)

    by jmrobinson ( 660094 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @07:57PM (#11047474)
    has some certs [comptia.org] other than that you are looking at proprietary certs for a particular product.

    • Re:compTIA... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Daniel Boisvert ( 143499 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:51PM (#11047818)
      CompTIA's certs are worthless, in my opinion. I've seen the people that come out of them and sat through their Network+ class, and I'd never do it again. It was easily one of the biggest wastes of time I've ever experienced. The trainer actually taught a bunch of stuff flat-out wrong.

      The poster could easily walk in and teach any of their network classes. I'd recommend he look elsewhere.
      • Is it the certification or the instructor? Sounds like a bad instruction who must of been a paper MSCE.

        I'm currently taking a Network+ class at the local college. The instructor repeats often that classroom time (about 64 hours) is only 1/5 of the total hours that Comptia recommends before taking the exam, and that getting an "A" in the class is not going to get you certifed. He also mentions that both Microsoft and Comptia will change their certification programs in the near future to require proof of act
        • Is it the certification or the instructor? Sounds like a bad instruction who must of been a paper MSCE.

          Are you serious? The MS TCP/IP test was harder than the Network+ test, not to mention the other tests necessary to become an MCSE, even a paper one.

          I'm currently taking a Network+ class at the local college. The instructor repeats often that classroom time (about 64 hours) is only 1/5 of the total hours that Comptia recommends before taking the exam, and that getting an "A" in the class is not goin

        • Re:compTIA... (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          You are comparing Network+ to the MSCE?

          Or any certification for that matter?

          CompTia is there for a reason. You don't have any expierence, but you want to show you can apply somthing .

          I just passed my CISSP Examination, and I'm going through their random audit for the minimum of 48 months of expierence.

          I'm not belittling Network+ for what it's worth, but damn, dude. Don't compare a Go-Cart track to Nascar.
        • I readily admit I never took the Network+ exam. As I said to management after returning from the class, "I'd be embarrassed to have a cert saying I know this stuff. It'd be the networking equivalent of having a cert that says I know how to add single-digit numbers.".

          I don't mean to knock your experience in the class. Depending on your background, you may very well need that cert to get you an interview. For somebody who's already in the field though, it's a waste of time. The MS certification path is
          • I'm actually taking the class because it's a requirement for a programming track I been taking at the college. Since I got my A+ certification, I'm going to get my Network+ certification, which in turn will satisify the elective requirement for the MCSA certification.

            The textbook I'm using has 800-pages of obscure details to memorize (which may be useful if you're designing a network) and the testing software is not easy in my opinion. (I would say that Microsoft Windows 2000 study book and software was
        • I completely agree with the original poster. I took both A+ and Network + in beta years ago, neither one took more than 20 minutes. I am very glad I didn't take some course or pay full non-beta price for the tests.

          I can't believe the rates some places are charging for courses for these tests. At the time I took them I was working as a tech in a local computer store with some networking out-calls to set up printers and stuff, and those were easily the simplest tests I've ever seen, even then.

  • Off topic 9/11 rant (Score:3, Insightful)

    by nufsaid ( 230318 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @07:59PM (#11047500)
    > After 9/11 the economy tanked

    I just would like to point out that the U.S. economy was heading for a correction about that time. It has proven convenient for people to blame terrorism for problems with the U.S. economy rather than address root causes. Then again, perhaps the poster was not implying cause and effect here?

    • I would like to point out that the Economy was starting a correction cycle back near the end of 2000.... AKA the good old days before Bush.

      the economy had hit the official definition of recession in the summer before the attacks (those two quarters prior to the attacks made it a recession)

      the terror attacks hurt an already weak economy, drawing out the pain of a recession even longer because we had a flat period in growth from then till about the next summer, after which the economy grew a tiny bit per qu
    • I agree. Every company that had ridiculously puffed up earnings and business models based on an unending growth market suddenly announced that because of 9/11 they wouldn't make thier numbers and started balancing the books again.
      • Which makes total sense, in a sense : consider the people who bought into their business model before 9-11..it only makes sense that the same people would buy the retreat from the model they accepted, otherwise that would show them how incompetent and delusional they were. Nobody, not even critics like discovering they were foolish.
    • With all the "budget-oriented" shortcuts that governments are taking of late, I imagine there will be some big-time messes to clean up once (if?) the economy gets rolling again. That should mean some decent times for techies WRT gov jobs for a while. Hopefully we can postpone worries about offshoring for one more decade.

      But pay-your-own-training is becoming the norm in the private sector. It will likely spill over into the public sector as well. It is becoming an "on your own" economy under the new conserv

  • YDI (Score:2, Informative)

    by pdabbadabba ( 720526 )
    YDI (DC based, I think) offers training seminars/conferences. I've sent some employees there and have been reasonably satisfied with the results. Here's their info page: http://www.ydi.com/support/training.php
  • 90% of the concepts will port.

  • The answer is yes (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    They are called books and they can be had usually for $50 or less. There is also something called the Internet, it has a lot of information too.
    • They are called books and they can be had usually for $50 or less.

      Who modded this down? I'm amazed at the number of people who refuse to learn anything unless some authority figure spoon-feeds it to them. People, give yourself a little more credit than that.

      If you can't motivate enough for individual study, then select a book or two, form a small group and meet regularly as you work your way through it. Use the internet to find answers to questions that the books don't address. You won't get anything more

      • Certification (regardless of its actual worth) always looks good on a resume.
      • I don't know about the original poster, but I certainly learn better in a classromm/lab environment than I do by simply reading books.

        There's a lot to be said for being able to ask questions, or get clarification on the nuances of a topic, especially if it's new to you.

        The study group is a good idea, but you need to find a number of other dedicated individuals that are going to take it seriously. That can be hit or miss.

    • Not sure about other companies, but where I work I would be hard pressed to have a week off from work to learn from books and the Internet. Formal training gets you out of the office and away from day-to-day interruptions.

  • New Kinetics (Score:3, Informative)

    by VirtualUK ( 121855 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:09PM (#11047561) Homepage
    New Kinetics http://newkinetics.com/ [newkinetics.com] offer VoIP training, primarily focused on European clients for their VoIP courses, though they do perform in house training in the US too.

  • cisco vs avaya (Score:2, Insightful)

    by SoupGuru ( 723634 )
    I've been in on a Cisco VoIP intranet system from installation thru implementation and then to the point of realizing it wasn't doing for us what we wanted it to do and what we were promised it would do. I was at a school district and we had some requirements for some pretty strict call routing rules that made us look to an Avaya solution. I was there when we installed that as well.

    What have I learned about VoIP and different companies? Mostly that one company's management tools are a world of differenc

  • Seriously, Get some books (Score:4, Informative)

    by wschalle ( 790478 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:10PM (#11047569)
    Buy the Cisco Press books then take the certification test. Then pass the books on to the next person in your department. Easy as pie. Those classes are usually hard to learn anything concrete from anyway.
    • Careful, Cisco certification involves simulations these days. A little hands on helps a lot, either on the device under test or a simulator.

      I don't mean to claim CCNA and related are that hard, but when I took it I had a butt-slow simulator who ate up time while I was waiting for it to catch up with my typing! It really helps not to be fumbling for commands during the test.

    • "Those classes are usually hard."

      "To learn anything concrete."

      "From anyway."

      Geesus, man! I agree the Cisco Press books are well written, but your suggestion would have been more valuable if it included the passing of participles along with books.

  • Avaya (Score:5, Informative)

    by NetJunkie ( 56134 ) <jason.nashNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:10PM (#11047570)
    Avaya has a very strong presence in the VoIP world. They offer training all over so check them out. Will it carry over? It depends. All of the management and software is different between vendors. Sure, some of the underlying stuff is the same, but anything you usually mess with is different.
    • Good god. I can't believe anybody would recommend this bunch. Lucent-connected or not, I wouldn't let these people near my residential phones, let alone my office phones.

      Take Cisco classes, then look at asterisk to see if it'll do what you need it to.

      Chances are good that it will.
      • I didn't say I'd recommend it. :)

        We're using it right now. We got stuck in a lease which kept us from changing. For the most part it works fine, but I don't think we use a lot of the capability.
      • I must say the partner system that we have at our family business is a wonderful system. Its simple and offers a good amount of functionality and is easy for me to administer. I wouldent mind a system like that at home.

  • Self-teach! (Score:2, Informative)

    by Lando Griffin ( 698606 )
    Get FreeSCO (http://www.freesco.org/ [freesco.org]) and download FAQs and stuff. Even the "cheap" training places don't offer their product for free, and you can at least nail the concepts down with books and Internet-provided information. I work for a $4 billion pharmaceutical and am allowed exactly one training course per year.
    • I don't think freesco will help him in the realm of VOIP to the degree that the poster is looking to understand.

      The poster is looking for WAN/routing/QoS/troubleshooting training that goes above and beyond the basics that the freesco FAQs will teach.
      • True. I can attest to FreeSCO working fine with Cisco's VOIP CallManager/Selsius product, but it was just in a pinch while my old 3160 routers were being replaced with Infonet's 2600s during our MPLS migration. I was happy it worked at all, but did not delve into QoS or any in-depth troubleshooting.

    • Your kidding, right? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @09:20PM (#11047965)
      From the article:
      Our WAN is insane --multi-vendor frame, ATM, private DSL, private-line, lashed to a Sonet-MGX core (among other aggregation schemes), you name it we do it.

      It seems to me that he is already trained and experienced in much more advanced WAN scenarios than FreeSCO could ever offer.

      Does FreeSCO support frame-relay, ATM, private DSL, leased line or Sonet? No, I didn't think so. For that matter, does FreeSCO even support a rouing protocol like, RIP2, EIGRP, OSPF, IS-IS or BGP? Even Windows 95 can do the "routing" that FreeSCO does but, that doesn't make Windows 95 a router.
    • Free SCO?

      Is that like Free Tibet, or free drinks? I'm not sure I'd like it either way....

  • Best way to learn... (Score:4, Informative)

    by deep_magic ( 137913 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:38PM (#11047726)
    ...is to do.

    I understand you want to get some formalized training while the getting is good. Don't blame you there.

    But, honestly, the absolute best way to learn something like this is to do it. Download asterisk [asterisk.org] and start playing. You can even connect a free soft-phone (SIP) to it so there is really no up front cost.

    IMHO, formalized training is only useful *after* you have already learned a good deal about the subject matter. It gives you a chance to organize all you thoughts that have been plaguing you, and have a compentent teacher answer them for you.

    Going in cold to VOIP lab, when you leave you will understand some jargon - but most of the deep concepts will escape you.

  • If you are running Windows and Cisco instead of Linux and Asterisk you are not broke!....pay up sucka
    • But I don't have an asterisk.
      • Pretty Mary bought some skates
        Upon the ice to frisk
        Wasn't she a silly girl
        Her little * ?

        Mary had an aeroplane
        Around the world she'd whisk.
        Wasn't she a silly girl
        Her little * ?

        Little Mary took her skis
        Upon the snow to frisk.
        Wasn't she a silly girl
        Her little * ?

        There once was a soldier named Fisk
        Who said, when the fighting got brisk,
        "I'm sorry to say
        that I can not stay --
        I've got only one *"

  • Read. (Score:3, Informative)

    by stacko ( 673397 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:49PM (#11047791)

    You don't need a training class. If you go through the Cisco web site, you'll see that all of the manuals are right there. While lengthy, those manuals provide very comprehensive discussion around the specific commands/steps to implement the concepts. If you look at the tech notes, you'll find all sorts of information on the theory. Together, you get a comprehensive picture of both the high-level concepts and the low-level commands.

    I just went through a CallManager/CRS installation, and spent most of my time reading the Admin Guides and the System Guides, and spent some quality time with the VoIP-specific IOS guides to setup my gateways. Really, look in the manual, and you'll see: Step 1: bla, Step 2: bla, To Verify Setup: bla. No training, no certification, just a working system. Those manuals are great, and TAC will help you out on the rare occasion you get stuck.

    From your question, it really looks like you've figured out the CallManager stuff, and are now just optimizing your network. The thing to keep in mind about VoIP is that it's oIP. All of the knowledge that you already have about traffic optimization applies directly to the voice traffic.

    Spend your training bucks elsewhere, preferably at a conference that takes you to Tahiti.

  • Vendor specific. (Score:5, Informative)

    by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Thursday December 09, 2004 @08:50PM (#11047800)
    Well, there are a few standards in the area of VoIP so, your request shouldn't be out-of-line. But, the fact is that the two biggest players in the VoIP arena are Cisco and Nortel. They both claim to follow the standards but, they also both have enough of their own proprietary stuff in there to make them non-standard. Cisco waffles on about H323 and SIP, Nortel does too but, both prefer their own signaling system.

    Your employer, a government agency, is unlikely to implement any of the lessor vendor's products. Furthermore, you will never see the likes of Asterisk or Skype while employed there. This all means that you should get vendor training from whomever your employer is most likely to implement. On the surface, it sounds like that would be Cisco but, check the telephone on your desk. If it is a Nortel phone, then there is a good chance that your state may implement a Nortel VoIP solution.

  • sorry, this is what I meant to type in . . http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-VoIP+Training [voip-info.org] Asterisk is worth looking into - install if you like. It is compatible with sip and cisco's "skinny" protocol and works with cisco phones as well as many others. It also does h.323 (if you like pain), iax2 (used by some big companies such as VoicePulse), adsi, sip, etc. http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index.php?page=Aster isk [voip-info.org] You can download an iso and install it from the iso or run from a live cd: http://www.voip-info [voip-info.org]
  • Hmm.. so your environment is Cisco, but there are no Cisco classes in your area... but on the other hand, Cisco education is much more widely distributed than any other type of networking training... Wait... why don't you just go to Cisco training again?

    Sure, there's Juniper, etc. But the reality is that Cisco still has the most comprehensive, practical, network training on the planet.

    Classes aren't good for much except the Lab. In the lecture they basically read the book to you, so if you can read for yo
  • Maybe I'm lucky, but my boss never skimps on the training budget. In fact, he often has to push my colleagues and me out the door, because we're "too busy" for training. He downright insists on training. I work at a small, private university so maybe this is a rare case.

    Enlighten the guy who holds your purse strings about the ROI for training. Do some surfing and find some numbers and statistics. The folks who control the money understand that.

    Best of luck!

    SiO2
    • Maybe I'm lucky, but my boss never skimps on the training budget.

      Yeah, you're lucky - far too many people don't have a smart boss. It's unfortunate that makes you "lucky".

      Enlighten the guy who holds your purse strings about the ROI for training.

      Not to mention the whole point of a VoIP system is to save tons of money - so build some training into the budget.

  • It really depends on what exactly you are looking to learn. Are you wanting to learn a vendor's product? Are you wanting to learn software solutions? Hardware?

    Some of the big VoIP guys that I am familiar with or have worked with are:

    • Sonus
    • Cisco
    • Avaya
    • Sylantro
    • BroadSoft
    • IPUnity
    • BayPackets

    Some of them are hardware switches with VoIP capabilities. Some are PBX systems with VoIP capabilities. Some are software switches that do VoIP in software completely. Some are VoIP voicemail systems. Some are VoI

  • I was going to recommend Global Knowledge [globalknowledge.com], but after reading some of the other posts I see there is plenty of education and training available that I never knew existed.
    Personally I'd rather save the cash, read a book, and test things out in my lab. But that's just me.
  • Nortel is largest manufactor of voip solutions but I'm kinda wary since when they went bankrupt(2001) they sacked their voip division(ALA micom). Sonus came out of nowhere and is probably one the best solutions on the market.

    Stats on voip manufactors [srgresearch.com]

    • Nortel didn't go bankrupt in 2001 and they didn't sack the entire VoIP division. They sacked some departments, sold off some VoIP products but are still in the VoIP market.
  • If I were you, I'd talk to the finance guys so that they just give you the money and you bring them the bills. I'd invest in books and a nice computer farm at home (in fact I have it already), one fast computer for home entertainment + sometimes a server, a slower and cheap computer for serve, sometimes client and a laptop and you can emulate any environment on these 3 computers (plus you can run vmvare or similar and have even more computers) for instance install asterisk on the cheap server and have fun a
  • Typically CBWFQ (Class-based Weighted Fair Queueing) is not used for voice as it gives a bandwdith guarantee, but not one for latency. To keep voice quality consistent you want a fixed amount of bandwidth and the lowest latency possible. On cisco gear this is implemented using LLQ (Low Latency Queuing) which works as a straight priority queue. You can use policing to keep it from running away with all the bandwidth.

  • Management wants me to tell them what I want, and tell them soon as in within the week.

    Or should that be December 11th?

    Stay on dude, it's scary: Status bar [mozilla.org]

  • I've worked for both Telecom and Data vendors, and every one I ever work with always seem to have problems understanding "the other side". VoIP is such a broad term with so many different signalling protocols, it is hard to really know what the heck someone means when they say VoIP. Learn your basics of the PSTN network, eventually there will be certainly be a call that needs to go out a PSTN. First class I took when VoIP was "new" and was a SS7 course, back then we were signalling with IPDC but one of t
  • I can't argue with those that tell you to get books and study, as that is a great way to learn.

    However, you should be aware of another supplementary training option. Cisco's annual network technology training conference called Networkers is available online for about $300. You will get a subscription to the service for a year, during which you can stream audio and slides from any of the two-hour training sessions presented at the conference. The material ranges from introductory to very advanced, and inclu
  • Montana, the Dakotas, or Idaho?

  • If you really want to learn ... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shri ( 17709 ) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .cmarirhs.> on Friday December 10, 2004 @02:11AM (#11049215) Homepage
    The best place to get trained is google.com :)

  • I hold the Cisco Certified Network and Design Profesional ratings and only the MPLS exam stands between me and the Cisco Certified Internetwork Professional ticket, which means I've had the pleasure of the Cisco DQOS exam recently.

    I used to work for an international voice carrier and I've had my hands in various VoIP projects for about the last five years. I have one customer with a six node Cisco VoIP over low speed frame network, another with a five site contraption that does VoIP and video over poin
  • From the point of view of training being transferable I guess VOIP breaks down into two areas: 1) VOIP protocols actually on the wire This is your H323 and Skinny etc. Any stuff you learn about this and queuing/bandwidth requirements etc is totally transferable from on evendor to another. 2) Config and management of VOIP PBX This would be Cisco CallManager or Nortel BCM for example. Here really we are talking about applications and the management and reporting tools that come with them. These are usuall
  • You will learn more about VoIP if you grab asterisk from

    http://asterisk.org

    than if you attend 1000 training classes!
    • That's exactly what I did about 5 months ago.

      Recently, I've installed 4 Asterisk PBX, and I'm configuring the 5th one, with multiple call queues, conferences rooms, remote agents (at home, with a soft-phone), call parking, voicemail (optionnally delivered to your email), etc.

      Maybe you will not get any certificate from this, but what you will learn is invaluable.

      That's the power of OSS : I can install Linux on a cheap computer (Duron 1ghz, 512meg), install Asterisk, and get myself a working VoIP PBX, and

  • I see a lot of posts to this thread saying things like "read a book" or "use Google", and suggesting that all you need to do is download Asterisk and play with it. I would suggest that these people do not install and support VoIP systems in a production environment.

    Reading and self-study are major components to learning a new technology, and I agree that a few good Cisco Press books will help you tremendously in the realm of learning complex concepts such as QoS. There are quite a number of online and d

  • In my opinion, there's no one better than ARG. I've taken about a dozen classes from them. I've used others, but ARG is tops. (They're changing names to Global Knowledge.

    http://www.globalknowledge.com/ Look at their course catalog. They publish "Virtual Classrooms" at significant savings over classroom schools.

    If you live in a remote area, you may need to travel for the classrooms. They're held in hotel ballrooms, 8:30 to 4:30 or 5pm. Many of the classes involve equipment and hands-on. The clas
  • Inter-Tel is pretty much the only vendor I have worked with that has a reliable VOIP solution. I have never seen a Cisco, Avaya or Panasonic system actually work as advertised in the real world. I have configured installed and supported PBX nad VOIP solutions with all these vendors. Inter-Tel has excellent training facilites and instructors at Inter-Tel university in Pheonix. If you have not looked at an Inter-Tel solution, you probably should. They have everyone beat on technology by a wide margin. E

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