Developing for Healthcare - .NET vs J2EE? 645
An anonymous reader asks: "Our small southern shop (an eleven man team) is about to commence development on some medical software geared for physician's offices and hospitals. Since we have never developed in this area before (our primary source of income comes from developing software for regional transportation offices of the government) we are at loss for the reigning technologies. The two technologies we are considering are J2EE and .NET. What are the opinions of the Slashdot crowd? Surely others have developed for the monstrous healthcare industry. Thanks!"
"My senior manager recommended using .NET. His argument is that most desktops he has seen in hospitals already run Windows, the development time will be cut down for this small to mid-size project, rich desktop clients are possible and there will be no application server costs involved. He also contends that .NET has more templates and abilities than J2EE (which is simply 'web targeted' in his opinion.
Half of my coworkers are with him and the other half have suggested using J2EE due to portability--we do not want to cut off any potential sources of income with an already dwindling future. Has GNU/Linux become widespread in the healthcare industry that we should consider developing for it too? What about Mac OS X server?
The last problem we have is winning over the IT staff hearts. They are the ones who ultimately give the go ahead to purchase the software. Java gets a bad rap for being slow, while Microsoft (and by extension) .NET has the shadow of being insecure. How can you possibly win?"
ARGH!!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:ARGH!!!!!! (Score:3, Informative)
2. It is possible to build very slow
Re:ARGH!!!!!! (Score:2)
What, Linux, Apache, Mono, Postgresql? It's good that there's a
Re:ARGH!!!!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
(Awaits the volley of flames)
You can't win.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Either your client dictates the technology or he doesn't. The "Healthcare Industry" is a vast array of mixed technologies, so it doesn't matter that way. And if they're buying your solution, they're buying your SOLUTION (which typically involves hardware), so THAT'S not important.
Go with what you know, go with what you're comfortable with. The success or failure of your project will have nothing to do with this decision, just in how you pull it off.
You can find all sorts of excuses to fail in either platform, and you can find just as many reasons to succeed. Pick one, don't second guess yourself, and stick to it.
Good Luck!
Re:You can't win.... (Score:3, Informative)
I work in the SouthEast now. I'm not directly envolved in software development for the medical industry but I do keep my eyes open. Most medical systems that are doing modern development have chosen J2EE over .Net and I have no clue as to why.
Re:You can't win.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Stupid programmers can do stupid things regardless of the platform and choice of language. Good programmers can do good things regardless of platform and choice of language.
As far as the OP, I agree with others who say you will be able to choose the whole platform (hardware and software). If you are entering a
Need extra stuff (Score:2)
Re:You can't win.... (Score:2)
Re:You can't win.... (Score:2)
Why are you asking us? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why are you asking us? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention,
Re:Why are you asking us? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm a Java developer for an enterprise-level J2EE shop. I happen to like Java: the rich libraries, the elegance that OO can bring, the cross platform support (we code in Windows, have Solaris and Linux for our staging environment, and deploy to Solaris.) I have no complaints about Java, and encourage its use.
Having said that, however, ultimately a decision like this shouldn't be made on techonological grounds. I haven't used .NET, and typically cringe at anything Microsoft, but for Festivus's s
Re:Why are you asking us? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now if you mean to say: Use what most hospitals use, then sure.
but many hospitals are not using whats best, just what the guy running the hospital told them to do.
Cause he's a doctor, and as such is an expert in computer technology. Just ask him.
Yes, I've worked with hospitals.
Nice troll. (Score:5, Insightful)
You're asking an Internet message board for advice on a development platform? For software you're going to develop for an industry you have no experience with?
Re:Nice troll. (Score:3, Interesting)
Either a troll or a REALLY clueless person (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Either a troll or a REALLY clueless person (Score:2)
Re:Either a troll or a REALLY clueless person (Score:2)
Re:Either a troll or a REALLY clueless person (Score:2)
At least people won't be constantly telling him how powerful Visual Basic is for this, or recommend that he set up an Access database to store the information...
Blame Cliff, for posting it (Score:2)
Very true.
But let's put the blame where it belongs -- on Cliff, for posting the post.
-kgj
Re:Either a troll or a REALLY clueless person (Score:2)
Think of Security (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Think of Security (Score:4, Funny)
HIPAA not HIPPA
HIPAA not HIPPA
HIPAA not HIPPA
Healthcare industry? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing I can tell you for sure is that it's much easier to prove to an IT staff that something's not slow than that something's not insecure -- just show them Eclipse or anything else that...doesn't use Swing...which is the one really slow part of Java.
Really, though, these technologies are so similar that you should probably just pick one and go with it.
J2EE and webapps (Score:5, Informative)
A webapp has the strength that all you need is a web browser to view the content. When you update the webapp, all clients are updated instantly, without having to push something out to them, or making them download something. This saves a lot of stress and headache.
There are many technologies out there for writing a database oriented project like this a lot easier. These include
Apache Tomcat, JBoss, and many of the other java based application servers are supported on many different platforms. You can run it on Windows, Linux, Mac OSX, and virtually any hardware provider you want.
I've been working now on this project for 6 months, and I have to say, I love the structure of this way of working on webapps far more than the common hodge-podge of php or perl. This isn't to say you can't program a nice, easy to maintain app in these languages, just that there is a nice framework with examples and plenty of books to do it in Java.
Re:J2EE and webapps (Score:3, Insightful)
For languages, although some differ, I would suggest Perl or PHP first (not only because they are fast but both languages run on a large number of systems in the same manner. So if your boss comes to you one morning and says you are moving from a Windows box to a Linux box y
Re:J2EE and webapps (Score:2)
With PHP you create classes.
With Java you create classes.
With C++ you create classes.
With
Well, yeah, but I wouldn't consider OOD for each of these similar at all.
Re:J2EE and webapps (Score:3, Interesting)
The security holes in php compared to j2ee app servers... Ever heard of Weblogic?
Re:J2EE and webapps (Score:4, Informative)
Some random thoughts though:
* you can talk to you manager about the time you can save by using the orm (object-relational mapping) technique vs. sql in general (from my experience you can save a lot of time). Then you can tell him/her about hibernate. There is also ibatis which is available for
* The opinion about java and
1) Tapestry (jakarta.apache.org/tapestry). It is used by nhl.com and theserverside.net (check by seeing the source for the pages and search for the word Tapestry in it). Tapestry uses a component based approach. Sample components: a nice table, a tree, a date picker in js... It is trivial to write your own and there is a plugin for eclipse called spindle
2) WebWorks - I have only heard good opinions about it, haven't used it personally.
* when presenting and using/developing in java avoid using swing when possible. It is ugly, user unfriendly and slow. SWT/JFace is the way to go. You can also check out the eclipse rich client platform (rcp) tutorial on developerworks at ibm.com - it was two part, probably still available at their web page
* if possible don't use ejb - especially entity beans. Hibernate/Spring (you can also check hivemind - another IOC), WebServices can be very useful
* when talking to a manager - references, references, and one more time - references. Who uses this technology, what successful project is based on this technology, who backs that technology (you check who is behind eclipse).
* Java and J2EE by itself (servlets, jsp, ejbs, swing, jdbc, JDO) as it comes from SUN is rather weak and I would recommend not to use it if it wasn't for open source addons and replacements.
*
Re:J2EE and webapps (Score:2)
I work in a hospital. We have a web app that we had built for our physicians to access patient data from anywhere. It is basically a screen scraper. What it isn't is pretty. What it is is quick and very functional. The physicians LOVE it. So do their staff, and ours.
The advice about avoiding a local app is GREAT advice. Version contro
XUL, fast, light and stable (Score:2, Interesting)
= desktop like interface,
= lightweight desktop install (eg. firefox)
= backend choice of components - eg. prototype in PHP, then decide if you really need to go that extra mile with C for any of the slow bits.
= Users think it's great
= It's responsive, even on old win98 pentium II's
= Alot cheaper to add/change develop. etc.
The platform doesn't matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, having said all that, I will fall back on the usual logic and say that if your application needs to be platform independent, J2EE is the obvious choice. If you want the easiest and most productive development environment, stick with
Re:The platform doesn't matter. (Score:2)
> independent, J2EE is the obvious choice. If you
> want the easiest and most productive development
> environment, stick with
I'd agree with that, with the caveat that I don't have quite the same level of expertise with J2EE that I do with
On the other hand, surely you're considering making some/most/all of your apps browser-based. If so, why not go with the following approach:
- build back-end with J2EE or
Re:The platform doesn't matter. (Score:2)
This is rather a myth unless your team is a bunch of MS junkies who've never used anything but Visual Studio. Java development tools, overall, are more powerful than those for
Been there, done that (Score:5, Interesting)
If the PHP is not elegant enough, for the love of sanity please use Java. If we don't feed the monster that is choking, screwing, and robbing us, it may weaken and we can get on with an unshackled future. We do the entire world a favor whenever we choose sane engineering.
"If no one tilts at windmills, the damn things will take over the world!"- Christian Simpleman
Re:Been there, done that (Score:5, Funny)
What kind of medical facility is this, and how can I check in?
Hospital systems (Score:5, Insightful)
Our debate is focused on whether we should support only one OS, probably Windows, or continue to support three. We'll be switching from UNIX to BSD at some point. (Personally I'd rather use Linux, but as a company we are familiar with UNIX and I'm told BSD is very similar.) The Unix variant side likes the security and reliability, the Windows side likes the graphical interface and the fact that Windows machines are everywhere. Plus we have both Windows and AIX customers that insist on their OS of choice. One thing that scares me about Windows is HIPAA, which makes the hospital liable if a patient's information is leaked. No court cases have been brought yet, but the thought of all that patient information on a Windows machine that could get hijacked is scary. A lot of these hospitals allow remote vpn connections and some of these networks get infected with a worm now and then. I wonder how long before someone decides to steal a patient database and bribe the hospital?
Most hospital systems, and even some Physician software will communicate with other systems using HL7 protocol over TCP/IP. This is the thing keeping us busiest now and a lot of times it's what the hospitals find most useful.
Just my two cents, but get used to having the customer tell you what they want and be prepared to do it, if at all possible. Flexibility is key, even more than taking advantage of the latest software trends. Support wise, they will need hand-holding, but they will be loyal customers if you respond to their problems quickly and kindly.
Re:Hospital systems (Score:2)
Supporting only one OS mostly makes sense only if it _isn't_ Unix. Also, Linux is more like most recent commercial Unix, unless the last Unix you supported was Ultrix. Seriously.
Re:Hospital systems (Score:2)
Use to work for UK healthcare solution provider (Score:5, Insightful)
I use to work on a Unix based custom information system that over a decade old, and on a dozen Unix platforms, and they were developing a new Windows based system. It took multiple years to develop with the new product that was not good enough to replace their existing Unix solution, so hadn't sold a single copy of the new system.
Of course, to your secondary question, I don't know, but I think it is a classic case of horse before the cart though.
Re:Use to work for UK healthcare solution provider (Score:2)
I know a database engineer that works for a large national health care provider she says this isn't as true as it used to be. Y2k was a wakeup call for an industry that was still maintaining an amazing amount of COBAL and even MUMPS [wikipedia.org] code on old school big iron. This particular health care provider did an organization workstation upgrade during '99. All machines were not only required to be Y2k compliant but those that were running Microsoft OSes were
Re:Use to work for UK healthcare solution provider (Score:2)
The hospital I work for has repeatedly ranked first in Hospital/Health System Information Technologylists published by Information Week and other like publications and organizations. The bulk of our clinical systems are based on Intersystems Caché, [wikipedia.org] which is basically the most current descendent of M/MUMPS. Increasingly, the front end is web based, but there are still apps that require terminal emulation. Although we too held a Y2K upgrade free for all, that was five years ago, and many of those deskt
Slow (Score:3, Informative)
I would choose Java over
While I don't have extensive experience with it, you could compile your Java into native binaries...see GCJ and JET.
That having been said, I would definitely consider some of the options presented that do not fall in the binary choice you have presented us.
Finally, while I have not done so personally, my cousin's husband works for a company that develops their product in Java, but apparently can, with not too much trouble, use some automated tools to generate C# for the occasional dead-set MS customer than they come upon now and then. I don't know if tools to perform the inverse exist. He made C# translation sound like fairly trivial an issue for them.
Re:Slow (Score:2, Offtopic)
And Java's JIT compilation actually out-performs natively compiled C++ in some cases. So it's not a clear-cut "Java i
Re:Slow (Score:2)
And I like to point out that Java virtual machines ARE c++.
Finally I'd like to add that Java 1.5 has implemented footprint sharing which will reduce the amount of RAM used by multiple JVMs running at the same time. Not exactly ignoring the "problem."
well... (Score:5, Informative)
Both .NET and J2EE are good platforms for developing and hosting business applications. Both support n-tier architectures via client- and server-side component models for assembling enterprise applications. This allows for use of either fat or thin user interfaces with both platforms. However, .NET and J2EE are far from identical, and each platform has distinct strengths.
The primary strength of .NET is its use of multiple programming languages running on a single platform. This eliminates the programming language as a barrier for adoption. Further .NET strengths include ease of use and speed of development as programmers might be transitioning from COBOL or C. (In contrast, transitioning to Java usually takes greater skill in object orientation.)
J2EE takes .NET's multiple programming-language/ single-platform paradigm and turns it around: The primary strength of J2EE is its use of a single programming language capable of running on multiple platforms. This eliminates the platform as a barrier for adoption. Further J2EE strengths include vendor neutrality and the active involvement of a large, open-source community.
Legacy applications: Can either platform make integration easier?
Healthcare providers are moving from traditional reliance on paper-based records and isolated legacy systems. Most now embraced more systematic electronic exchange of patient data, exchanged both within and across organizations such as other providers, diagnostic and laboratory test facilities, managed care organizations, etc. Creating and maintaining patient records requires the ability to extract and integrate patient data from a range of "legacy" document and system formats. legacy applications constitute an even more difficult integration category. Consider a host application that was developed in-house 20 years ago, and written in COBOL. No J2CA resource adapters are available, nor will they be available, to help integrate these applications in a J2EE environment.
From an integration standpoint, JDBC is actually more promising than J2CA. This API provides access to virtually any data source, from relational databases to spreadsheets and flat files. With a JDBC driver, all corporate data can be connected, even in a heterogeneous environment. In addition to its support for actual relational databases, JDBC can also support emulated relational models based on legacy information sources. But to do this, JDBC requires an integration product that can map the legacy-application functions to emulate a relational database model.
The .NET platform, with its dependence on Microsoft BizTalk Server, has the same drawbacks for legacy-application integration as it does for packaged-application integration. So, despite the very real integration potential of .NET and J2EE, both platforms have their associated limitations. And when it comes to legacy-application integration, neither platform can complete the job on its own.
Be aware that all vendors of application integration products do not provide equal support for .NET and J2EE. Many vendors have built their solutions exclusively around one platform or the other, heedless of the fact that both .NET and J2EE will still be the strongest presence in the years to come. Buying an integration product too hastily can tie your organization to a development platform they might not have chosen otherwise.
Therefore, you should look to application-integration vendors that are closely aligned with--and can articulate a long-term strategic relationship with--both .NET and J2EE technologies. That means checking to ensure that a solution offers interfaces such as .NET Class Libraries, COM Objects, ASP, ASP.NET, and .NET web services to support your .NET-based development efforts as well as interfaces like JavaBeans, JSP, and Java web services to support your J2EE-based development efforts.
Coming from the healthcare industry... (Score:5, Informative)
My experience...
1) Don't worry about the run-time in terms of a desktop requirement. Since you'll have to install your software, you'll have the opportunity to install the VM.
2) Getting security clearance to run on a hospital system will largely be dependent on your application architecture and not on your application framework. Do you depend on certain ports or services, certain databases, file shares, web services, etc.
3) A majority (overwhelming majority) of these systems do run Windows. If you find Linux in the mix, it'll usually be for very specific systems (PAX/DICOM) or back-end work (your mainframes and such). Due to the large number of small vendors in healthcare, a ton of applications are installed to the clinican's desktop. (And may have simple architectures or older frameworks like VB, Delphi, and even Terminal/Telnet). Everything from intergrated hospital wide systems to what a doctor uses on his own box to manage X, Y, and Z. [hint: look-up CCOW]
4) Integration with an EMR is important, and again, most are Windows based. If you want to feed data into "the system", be prepared to work with the system. EMRs are heavy on HL7, light on Web Services and XML.
5) Depending on your architecture, your GUI/interface and your "server" can be running on different systems, platforms, and/or frameworks. Probably not the best route but it is possible.
General knowledge and opinion...
1) Mono (.NET) for non-Windows applications is just as viable as Java for multi-platform use. You could do
2) Hospitals pay huge $$$ for integrated systems. As such, they will purchase hardware dedicated to your implementation. If your worried about running on their existing OSX servers, don't be - sell them a Dell running Windows 2003 or a black box running RH. Your software will be more expensive than the boxes. You could also just include $2-10K in hardware costs as part of the PO.
I highly recommend going to a trade-show or just talking to vendors "as a 100-300 bed hospital". You can see what others do by being a customer.
Not saying you have to do what everyone else does - but it does help to sell something that won't take a lot to get going.
Re:Coming from the healthcare industry... (Score:4, Insightful)
That being said, if your target market is small physicians offices, don't worry about the runtime; the overhead of installing it to the workstations is indeed negligible. BUT, if you plan on targeting hospitals at all, the lack of a runtime can indeed be a great selling point. While writing a web-based PACS/RIS/scheduling (RIS=Radiology Information System) my company found that in the vast majority of installs, the clincher to the sale was the lack of a required executable install (except for the radiologists who were doing diagnostic reads) and/or the end-to-end integration of our system, which meant they didn't have to cobble together four or five different vendors' software using obscure export/import procedures that usually ended up as a post-it note on the monitor of the technician doing the job.
on the choices of software: if you go with
honestly, if you're intent on going into this area, go for the little shops first. hospitals are attractive targets for the big boys like GE Medical Systems, and they will eat your friggin lunch, right after they kick you in the balls just for fun. There's a huge market for smaller offices who can't afford an entry-level price of half a million for a HIS system but still need practice management. This is what the ASP business model was born to cover. Tell a doc you'll install for less than 5k, charge him 5 bucks a patient/study/unit of work/whatever but in doing so allow him to better track his expenses, increase his payments from medicare/insurance, see more patients in less time, employ fewer people, or whatever promise your software makes, and he'll be foaming at the mouth to buy whatever it is you're selling.
Take a look at TAPAS. (Score:3, Interesting)
Take a look at the Technology Assisted Practice Application Suite [sourceforge.net], which is based on Zope/Plone (written in Python), the jSyncManager [jsyncmanager.org] (a pure Java (J2SE) synchronization protocol stack and toolkit for PalmOS-based handhelds), and some custom applications.
This project is geared towards two areas: online access for medical offices, hospitals, retirements homes, etc., and handheld access using Palm Tungsten C handhelds. It uses open tools and open standards, and is released completely as Open Source. Phase One, currently under development, is implementing handheld management systems, security (both validation and encryption) calendaring, and messaging. Phase Two, starting Spring 2005, will be implementing patient data.
Being open and using languages like Python and Java, the suite runs virtually anywhere. The prototype systems are running Debian, however I often do development and testing against a similar setup on Mac OS X (as I develop all of the handheld synchronization and management routines).
Before you go out there and start writing soething similar from scratch, you might want to see if there are Open Source tools you can build upon and extend for your purposes first.
TAPAS is, BTW, being developed in conjunction with a major university, a major hospital, a group of doctors, and a provincial Ministry of Health here in Canada. You might want to take a look at what we're doing before jumping in and starting from scratch yourselves.
If you'd like more information, please feel free to drop me a line. In particular, if your company hasn't even considered the handheld side of your system, let me know as I have a lot of expertise in this area.
Brad BARCLAY
Lead Developer & Project Administrator,
The jSyncManager Project.
From my expierience... (Score:2, Insightful)
I cannot speak for other healthcare industries in other areas, but we were a 100% Microsoft shop with the exception of our Web Server. Almost every application that I looked at in my time as IT Manager was a wi
.NET definitely works! (Score:3, Informative)
I'm a Student Ambassador to Microsoft, I've been promoting
My thoughts are that yes, it will definitely work in
Also, the
I've developed GUI applications in both Java and
Re:.NET definitely works! (Score:2)
2. Okay.
3. XMLRPC and SOAP mean you can write the client in whatever the hell you want. Write it in C++ with Qt, if you like (which is probably what I'd do). C# isn't faster than Java, either. Sorry. Although, Swing does suck, but who uses it? SWT is great.
4. Okay.
5. You're out to lunch. Do you have any idea of Java's penetration? Some of the largest enterprise apps on earth were written using the J2EE framework (Ford, Coca-Cola, HSBC, etc. etc.), and you're saying the unreleased, "promising" ASP.NE
Hospital Technologies (Score:5, Informative)
operating systems
digital HP Unix
AIX
VAX/VMS
Solaris
Windows 3.1, 95, 98
Windows NT, 2000, XP
programming languages
Mumps (ala the 'M' database)
CCL (fourth generation SQL-esque language)
SQL (a very little bit)
databases
oracle, oracle, oracle
some SQL
First of all, you have got to understand your (potential) client. Therefore, you need to understand FDA regulation of healthcare equipment, and of the HIPPA regulations. Because of FDA regulations regarding healthcare equipment, it often takes years (between 3 and 5, on average) for a piece of medical equipment to be designed, tested, run through trials, and (hopefully) approved. On the other hand, hospitals have a very steady stream of revenue, charge lots of money, generally have massive amounts of cash flow, and have major assets (like CT and MRI scanners, for instance). Therefore, it's common for a hospital to invest $1M for a new CT or MRI scanner at least every 10 years. However, that scanner had better be a workhorse for the hospital.
So, what this means for you as a developer is that most hospitals still have legacy systems in production that date back 10 to 20 years. As a systems administrator for the department of radiology at a local community hospital, my production environment involves:
> a Maxifile VMS/VMX terminal server running an 'M' database programmed in 'MUMPS'
> 6 oracle database servers which 100+ non-admin end-users log onto each day
> a remote-hosted oracle database which sits in Kansas (ala Cerner Corporation), which everybody at the hospital must access via a Citrix box.
> a nuclear magnetic resonance imaging scanner running VAX/VMS
etc. etc.
So, to make a long story short, if you want to develop products for the healthcare industry, you had better start thinking about how to interface with products from Oracle, Citrix, Cisco, Microsoft, and so forth.
Also, Linux is generally avoided in hospital settings. It requires too much computer knowledge (remember that hospital workers are healthcare providers, not information technology developers). More importantly, it's usually impossible to hold the developers accountable with Linux, and it's generally very difficult to obtain support contracts. All things considered, I have 1 linux machine in production, 200+ windows machines, and about 30 unix variations (AIX, VAX, HP Unix, DEC, Solaris).
So, all this being said, I think that you're barking up the wrong tree and not necessarily asking the right questions. Personally, I would suggest J2EE over
If you really want to start asking the right kind of questions, you could start with questions like 'should we start by developing an HL7 sniffer or a HIPPA auditing & compliancy application'? You would then find, either way, you will need to know Cisco (TCP/IP stacks), Oracle (SQL database connectivity), and HIPPA legal concerns (e.g. need for cryptography). In the end, you'll realize that you can do it in either J2EE or
anyhow, just my $0.02
Don't reinvent! (Score:2, Informative)
Instead of re-inventing the wheel, get involved in open-sourced solutions. You can find a good list here [sourceforge.net].
From this list, I have personally only seen VistA [va.gov] which has been used by the Veteran's Affairs Department for a very long time. Certainly long enough to mature. It's scalable and will work with groups of hospitals. It's designed by Doctor's to fit the way they work and it's easy to use (so Doctor's have told me). It's open source, and there's a community [hardhats.org] web site.
There are cons though: It uses a litt
.NET or J2EE? Here's the answer! (Score:2)
I assume that you're delivering a product, and that you have some previous expertise and previous experience building a somewhat similar product in a different field.
If so, my first answer would be to "do what you're an expert at". Why screw around with technologies that you all aren't expert in?
Is this an "old fashion" attitude?
You bet! You're there to d
For healthcare? (Score:2)
Why do they come to me to die? Why do they come?
Hopefully you cross-posted (Score:2)
(Go ahead, mod me troll. I'm already married so I don't have to impress anyone anymore.)
Cross-platform and server-centric, please! (Score:2)
Platform-independece is nice. I am stuck with a vendor who provides windows-centric products. My docs have Apple laptops, and want to use the apps.
Most small to midsize clinics do not have IT
Re:Cross-platform and server-centric, please! (Score:2)
Why fuel the Microsoft monopoly? (Score:4, Insightful)
No offense to the Mono folks, but I just don't see them ever having 100% cross-platform capability. It will never be possible to seamlessly change your development and deployment environments from Microsoft.NET to GNU Linux/Mono. And if it ever does become that easy, Microsoft will be ready with some kind of nastiness (patent lawsuits, forced upgrades, etc).
The group I work in writes custom engineering (design and anlaysis) applications for our company (Fortune 100). Some of these applications have been ported several times over the years as the flavor-of-the-week OSes/platforms changed. And today we're still porting applications to Windows using MFC! What happens when Microsoft obsoletes MFC, or Linux becomes the standard for engineering desktops, or even Apple starts supplying top-of-the-line technical workstations? We'll port again! But now is the time to take advantage of open source, cross-platform development environments.
Spend your time working on a solution for your customer, rather than worrying about future portability issues. I just feel that if you go Microsoft now, you'll regret it in the future; I just don't see how anyone can make a reasonable justification for going with Microsoft and claim to have a solid long-term vision.
Even Microsoft's lame slogan, "Where do you want to go today?" supports their obvious short-term approach. Today just isn't as important as tomorrow: I know where I need to be tomorrow; once I figure out how to get there, what I do today will naturally be right.
Let me save you some time and embarassment (Score:5, Interesting)
We used
Two and a half weeks. With all of "the Shining Stars" of Microsoft's
A decision was promptly made to drop
We use J2EE and are very happy with where its going. Sun has spent a great deal of effort working with us to transition, and their support has been great. Our J2EE stuff Just Works. It works wonderfully. We are very, very happy with it. I'm using short sentences here to get the point across that we are very happy with J2EE. We've been using it for our web services and as our main development platform. We train on IBM's WebSphere Studio Application Developer, and it also is a great (but expensive!) tool.
I, as a developer, recommend J2EE. I do not represent my company in this recommendation, in case you work out who it is I work for. I am speaking totally on behalf of myself.
Re:Let me save you some time and embarassment (Score:5, Insightful)
Since it's for a hospital, I assume that...
1) It's server like, pushing around data and integrating with other systems.
2) It really shouldn't crash.
3) You'll probably have lots of home computers, terminals, etc.. as users. It might be hard to track them all down to get stuff upgraded, especially considering that doctors may not always have the time for you to screw with their computers.
Seriously though, you just can't go wrong with J2EE. It'll run on anything, you can get pretty much any sort of appserver you want. You can get free appservers (JBoss), expensive ones (Websphere), or just embed your stuff in the database (Oracle) if that's what you think is appropriate. Java Web Start is a godsend for managing applications, and EJB will easily handle all your communications needs.
I just can't stress this enough,
This is, in fact the reason I quit my previous job. After trying to pound nails with a screwdriver for about a year (and getting roughly the progress you would expect from such an attempt), I threw in the towel and moved somewhere more sane. My life is much better now.
This slashcode site should help (Score:2)
Medical software is one area where we should all agree that closed source code has no place. After all it is not like a life support system, it IS a life support system. Closed source code for medical applications is like selling drinking water in a life boat. It's wrong.
And while we are on the subject, can anyone explain why we let the government mandate via hippa the use of diagnostic codes that are not in the public domain. Thats right the AMA owns the diagnostic codes t
Java (Score:5, Interesting)
- Microsoft essentially obsoleted our entire company's code base when they introduced
- Java has been around for 10 years, with many fewer technology upheavals.
- Java is multiplatform, much more so than
- Scalability.
- App servers - With MS there is one choice. With Java there are many vendors, with a vast range of product capabilities.
- Development tools - Just as good, wider variety and often far less expensive per seat.
- Maturity - best practices are fully understood, while
Re:Java (Score:3, Insightful)
Sun has worked for the last decade trying to ensure above anything else that Java works on as many platforms as possible.
Microsoft have worked for their entire life as a business to ensure that software only runs on their system.
The track record of these companies should be all the argument that people need.
Consider Python (Score:2)
Mac OS X Server (Score:2)
There are already a few packages for Mac OS X out there to run small dental, doctors' or chiropractic offices with - but you'll tend to see these running on several networked iMacs, in more of a "peer to peer" environment.
If you *do* have concerns about your new product being compatible on OS X Server, I think
It really depends on your priorities. (Score:2)
When I develop for portability I use JAVA. I can run it on any server that I like. Then again, how many times are you going to switch servers?
Because of what I ment
Kaiser Permanente is a Java Shop... (Score:5, Informative)
I've been with the company for about 3 years, doing both Software development and system support. During that time, most of my development has been in Java. I have yet to see any .NET development.
There may, in fact, be .NET development at Kaiser, but I haven't been able to find many references on the corporate intranet.
I would summarize Kaiser's software development as follows:
In the last few years, Kaiser has had an apiphany regarding in-house software development and now leans towards vended systems. But there is still a significant amount of in-house software development done to integrate these vended systems.
Hope that's useful.
-S
J2EE is too structured (Score:2)
You don't know much about the vertical and your dev team's split. You're going to have a lot of design changes. In my experience, J2ee has a lot of problems handling design and code structure changes, while
But yeah, keep your resume dusted unless the company you're working for has deeeep pockets
web services are what's important (Score:3, Interesting)
As much as IO enjoy OSS and dislike the evil that is blah blah blah, I have to say
So my take as far as the market itself is that the best thing to do is develop web services that can be consumed by the customer. That way, the platform you develop in does not matter. If you have to pick, then know that Microsoft is making huge strides in healthcare with transcriptions, digital medical records, iPaqs and Tablet PCs. I don't see a lot of OSS in the market.
Best of luck.
I am not a developer, but.... (Score:2)
If you assume that the client will not care about the back end, give it a look.
The big problem you may have is any customer with an MS Enterprise Agreement. The unspoken rule with those things is that YOU WILL NOT run ANY technology that Microsoft does not make.
I worked at a client that had an MS Enterprise agreement, and the
Real HC developers use MUMPS (Score:2)
Before making the decision, look at GnuMed (Score:2)
I've worked in healthcare (Score:2)
What does matter is the Sarbannes-Oxley and HPIAA acts, and think like as if your data was in there.
Patient privacy is all important, and that's 100% about process and 0% about technology.
Spend the time to create the system properly.
Think about the entire lifecycle
- architecture
- design
- testing
- coding
- SQA
- Security / UAT / SIT
- Deployment
These things are important. Do not fall into the waterfall lifecycle methodology - it's simply too hard to
So many Anonymous Cowards... (Score:2)
Not an answer... an opinion... (Score:2)
I cannot give you an answer for your particular situation, but I can tell you my opinion, based on my real-world experience.
I am the chief architect for a major application developed by the U.S. State Department [ndf.org], and used by foreign governments for the licensing of hazardous materials [trackernet.org].
We use J2EE, and have been since 1999. JBoss [jboss.org] is our application server. We used to use Weblogic, and were technically happy with it, but JBoss does everything we need, and has licenses and costs more favorable for our e
McKesson is J2EE; it's about availability... (Score:2, Informative)
My experience... (Score:2, Informative)
HAPI is a java-based open source HL7 library:
http://hl7api.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
JEngine can quickly route HL7 messages to & from your application:
http://jengine.org/ [jengine.org]
If your software is open source, or you can use open source components, OpenEMR can give you a leg up for clinical demographic and medical data management. It
the single most important thing to medical (Score:2)
As for your development platform it comes down to this:
More misconceptions (Score:2)
I'm in this Industry (Score:3, Interesting)
This is an interesting question. I'm actually in this industry, and have been for the last half-decade. For an industry that seems to lag remarkably behind the times, I'd like to note the following:
1. The major player in this field, McKesson (previously HBOC) seems enamored with Java. This, however, is only because the Healthcare IT field seems to be 5-15 years behind the current technology.
2. Major players in this field (Particularly Eclipsys) have bet the farm on
3. Many hospitals have strict rules on what IT software is allowed. I will tell you that the following is ALWAYS allowed: Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows 2003, SQL Server, Oracle.
The following is SOMETIMES allowed: Sybase, Any "other" RDBMS, Windows XP, Linux, *nix, etc.
With the combination of Windows and SQL Server, you can't go wrong. Don't believe me? Do your market research. Want more info? jerry@dennany.org.
Here's a health care industry perspective (Score:3, Informative)
In developing this project I've had contact with a lot of the largest health insurance companies in our region.
What I have found most of them have in common is a mixture of J2EE and ColdFusion, almost exclusively. It appears that dotNet hasn't made the inroads with the health care industry that they have with other corporate clients.
Holmes
Beware of EJB's. Make it lightweight Java (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all don't use EJB's unless you have to. If you don't need distributed transactions then stay away. You don't want heavy weight frameworks to drag you down. Read: Better, Faster, Lighter Java. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ [oreilly.com] For a free introduction read: http://www.onjava.com/lpt/a/4744 [onjava.com]
My personal advice is a stack made of:
Don't forget to have fun.
Java vs .NET (Score:4, Insightful)
A programmer worth its weight knows that each language has its niche, and for specific tasks there are enviroments that work best. Then there are those who believe the hype and form a concept of things without actually ever having a 1st hand impression. It's a bit like racism, applied to programming languages, and it has a common origin: ignorance. I hope this doesn't sound ecletic, but it probably could inspire flames, since people usually have a hard time admitting their ignorance. But the next time you feel like writing something about Java,
Also, the belief that a programmer can only be good in one language is ridiculous. Give a good programmer a month and he'll excel in whatever you throw at him in a given language. And what he doesn't know, he'll learn. Give him a project and a couple months and he'll know things inside out. Maybe he'll have a preferred language, but who's to say that won't change over time? Evolving oneself as a programmer sometimes involves changing paradigms.
That said, I consider myself mainly a C programmer, then converted to C++. Nowadays I use C/C++ very little, for very specific things or for my private projects (involving OpenGL & C++). I've worked extensively with Java, Perl, PHP, Prolog and bit in a dozen others. I'm in the process of learning everything possible about Mono/C#, and I'm enjoying it.
I don't really enjoy Java mainly because I find developing in it to be a real pain. When you have learned over 20 different languages, you value freedom of expression, and Java doesn't give you that - it locks you into a syntax that is archaic and not very flexible. I don't like the Sun Java team making choices for me, like not allowing operator overloading and not having propper syntactic support for modern OO concepts like properties. Maybe one day they'll understand the language syntax itself isn't important - just convenient - and will follow the road of Parrot or MSIDL (argh).
I like
I have recently gone through a process I consider similar to yours, and I don't envy you. It's a though choice. I recently spent almost two weeks studying the whole issue, experimenting with RAD systems for Java, Delphi, C++ and C#. In the end, I ended up adopting a solution based on LAMP2 (Linux, Apache2, PostgreSQL, Mono) - which should not be confused with LAMP (Linux, Apache, Mysql, PHP). Here's the reasons and thoughts:
- We find C# to be quite more expressive as a language. Mono is in a state good enough for us to use it, which satisfies our needs for platform independance.
- Java is not modern enough syntactically. It wasn't designed for some of the things it's used for nowadays, namedly GUIs, and that shows. Nowadays, having to write 'a.setLabel( a.getLabel() + "..." )' instead of 'a.label += "..."' looks stupid, and just shows what happens when people make decisions on your behalf based on their beliefs: on this I agree with Anders Hejlsberg [microsoft.com].
- We prefer open source solutions whenever possible. We have many people with skills on PostgreSQL and its internals (we've had to extend it before).
- Apache is rock solid.
- Global input from the rest of the team.
There were, of course, lots of small decisions related t
Re:Consider PHP (Score:2, Funny)
PHP is teh R0X0r!
Re:Consider PHP (Score:2)
Healthcare is probably the same, if not even more restricted. Software developed for US healthcare is pretty anal. As I understand it, every user-driven event has to be audited and signed with a key.
Re:Consider PHP (Score:2)
Unrelated, but the project described in the article is going to fail. Here's why.
HIPAA is a real bitch. You're going to need an attorney practically on staff to work with the developers in planning this product.
How are you going to input existing records into the EMR suite? OCR? Hire a typist (consult your attorney again)?
Transmitting personally identifiable health information over the internet? Gre
Re:J2EE hands down (Score:5, Insightful)
I use
I still agree with your cocclusion though - depending on the current skill level of the deveopers of course, I think Java is the better option. Both platforms are pretty similar, but with Java you get (better, complete) portability.
Ben
Re:J2EE hands down (Score:2)
Re:J2EE hands down (Score:2)
Whats to keep Sun from doing the same thing?
Re:Neither (Score:2, Interesting)
Combined with a good GUI toolkit (wxWidgets or for certain applications GTK+ and the wonderful Glade) and with a good database back-end (MySQL on the server and possibly SQLite for local data) you really can do pretty much anything very quickly and effectively. There are even some great free development tools (like DrPython) which are a joy to use.
You ge
Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (Score:2)
- Running web-based clients to business objects
- Running flash-based clients to business objects
- Running Swing/SWT fat/rich clients to business objects
However, unless you use Flash, UI work is not as easy for the developer as it is in Visual Studio (or Delphi, for that matter).
Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (Score:2)
Re:Hrm (Score:2, Interesting)
But seriously, I respect the fact you made some of these comments. But I think some of the reasoning is flawed. Windows is simply not a secure platform from both a quality and archectecture standpoint. I know this from experience (heavy amounts of development for many, many different operating systems... not just Windows/Linux)
I do agree with your comment on researching the target market and that is often what is f
Re:.NET vs Java - The Bad vs. the Bad (Score:2)
While Windows people might not see it this way, I think being limited to just one platform is not a very long term development solution. While
Re:.NET vs Java - The Bad vs. the Bad (Score:2)
We thought VB was here to stay, too. I bet Longhorn is going to mean that a lot of what people are doing now in
Re:Lets break down the platforms (Score:2)
Don't know how that happened (Score:2)