Integrating Linux into a Windows Network? 103
Di0medies asks: "I work for a some-what small non-profit organization that uses a windows-based network. We currently have 6 servers supporting about 25 local domain users and about 25 remote users and we're planning on migrating from Server 2000 to Server 2003 in a month or so. Being a non-profit, we're always a little tight on cash and considering Microsoft charges ungodly amounts of money for server software, migrating portions of the network to Linux leaves more cash available for other IT goodies (like a new high-capacity file server!) and also adds more stability and security to the network. All of this depends on how well a Linux server will work on a Windows network. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding Linux integration? Can Windows and Linux be made to play well together? Is there anything out there to add limited Active Directory support to Linux?"
How this even got posted? (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh. My. God. (Score:2)
For the love of God, can't we just answer someone with our experiences and build up this "Google" you speak of with some actual content?
I thought the open source community was founded on COMMUNITY. Man, if the old days of USENET could see us now, they'd be ashamed.
Damn. Posted that reply to the wrong comment. (Score:2)
Re:Oh. My. God. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Oh. My. God. (Score:2)
USENET (Score:2)
I was pretty active on USENET during the old days.
1) People were expected to be reasonably knowledgeable about the subjects they were posting on. That is there weren't many newbie groups at all
2) In general people didn't ask dumb questions that were easily researched (though nothing like google really existed).
3) There were other discussion groups like genie, prodigy, AOL and compuserve which were friendlier for these sorts of basi
Re:Oh. My. God. (Score:2)
One of the beautiful things about the open source community is that it is a meritocracy - your worth and status as a member of the community are directly porportional to the amount and quality of the work you've done. If a poster is seeking to join the community and has questions to ask of those who have successfully integrated Linux into Windows environments, essentiall
Re:How this even got posted? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How this even got posted? (Score:2)
+Informative, and generous too (Score:2)
1. Thank you -- well spoken. You are informative, generous, and polite. SlashDot needs more like you.
2. If someone submits a totally idiotic question, and a SlashDot editor posts that question, then the SlashDot editor is to blame for the idiocy.
-kgj
Re:How this even got posted? (Score:3, Insightful)
He specifically asked for suggestions on integration with Active Directory. Just saying 'Samba' is not answering the question.
Re:How this even got posted? (Score:1)
Re:How this even got posted? (Score:2)
Re:How this even got posted? (Score:2)
Note to self: don't reply to ACs.
One word (Score:4, Informative)
Re:One word (Score:1)
Re:One word (Score:4, Informative)
http://us4.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-C
Re:One word (Score:2, Funny)
actually, true:
Samba [samba.org]
Ad Aware [lavasoftusa.com]
(saw the window, had to go through it ;)
Give Samba and CUPS a look. (Score:5, Informative)
Samba + PAM + CUPS gives you integrated authentication, SMB/CIFS file serving (Windows file sharing protocol), as well as SMB and IPP printing.
I don't know of any tutorials off the top of my head but Google gave me all I needed to figure it out.
Re:Give Samba and CUPS a look. (Score:2)
Re:Use Google yet? (Score:1)
It says "Ask Slashdot." He did. (Score:1, Redundant)
For the love of God, can't we just answer someone with our experiences and build up this "Google" you speak of with some actual content?
I thought the open source community was founded on COMMUNITY. Man, if the old days of USENET could see us now, they'd be ashamed.
Re:It says "Ask Slashdot." He did. (Score:1)
When people ask lame questions in public forums that could have been answered with a minimal amount of legwork on their part, the standard answer is RTFM [reference.com], which coincidently was coined during the days of USENET. Google has built the community already. This guy is just walking around it with his eyes closed.
Re:It says "Ask Slashdot." He did. (Score:1)
Here's a suggestion: The "Why can't we help him" people sould all start providing the help they think should be provided rather than berating the "RTFM" people for not being helpful. The RTFM people can continue to say "RTFM" or whatever as long as they provide links to relevant google searches of oth
Re:Wasteful (Score:5, Insightful)
I work for an organization that provides tech support for non-profits. It's sad but true, non-profits have to live in the same world as commercial entities. They're subject to the same forces as anyone else -- they have momentum with existing Microsoft installations; there are custom legacy software that would require replacement, retaining, and conversation of data; they have users who only know Windows and (rightly or wrongly) would resist a switch to any other OS because it would mean they have to learn to use something slightly different.
You should be supporting the original poster's efforts to switch, not deriding him for not having already completed the task on every machine they have.
Re:Wasteful (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Consider that this is someone who is looking into using something besides Windows, and not blindly spending money bacause "that the way it's always been done."
2. Sit there and HELP THEM DO IT! (Though above postings are doing a good job, so it may not be necessary).
and this is the most important one:
3. Go help a non-pprofit with their tech needs
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
Re:Wasteful (Score:1)
Re:Wasteful (Score:1)
I work for an organization that provides tech support for non-profits. It's sad but true, non-profits have to live in the same world as commercial entities. They're subject to the same forces as anyone else -- they have momentum with existing Microsoft installations; there are custom legacy software that would require replacement, retaining, and conversation of data; they have users who only know Windows and (rightly or wrongly) would resist a switch to any other OS because it would mean they have to learn
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
And how much would they have spent on consultants to set that all up for them in the first place?
Grow up. They spent money and got what they needed. "Wasteful" is a relative measure.
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
Note to managers responsible for IT purchases: You have Windows at home, so you feel comfortable with it. So fucking what, you're supposed to be making money for the company you work for, or effectively performing to your charity's charter. Spending other peoples money on making yourself comfortable is pr
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
I'm mad at you and mad at the mod who marked you insightful. Someone already replied to you about the aspect of most people and organizations not knowing about
Re:Wasteful (Score:3, Insightful)
The Free Software Foundation?
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
You should not have been rewarded with a mod point for that. The FSF is an organization whose purpose is to use Linux, rather than provide help to anyone. That is why I said "non-profit/charity" organization, rather than just a non-profit. You were ignoring the question, which was about beneficial charities like the Red Cross, Salvation Army, American Way, etc. that ar
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
I should have been awarded a "funny" mod point - it was more of a joke and it was meaningless to the conversation.
Windows is sometimes free (Score:5, Interesting)
You work for a non-profit organization and it's shelling out contribution money for Microsoft products?
Just because an organization is running Windows servers doesn't mean they have to pay for it. For some organizations Microsoft will donate software and coordinate with a local .NET users group to develop "line-of-business" applications unique to the non-profit. Case in point, the local (Kansas City) .NET users group developed an internal application to allow the Salvation Army (SA) to coordinate donations and logistics getting items to/from the SA warehouse. Those who contributed to development were given copies of Visual Studio -- for the duration of the project, of course -- and server licenses were given to the SA by the local MS office.
Usually, Microsoft software is not free, but sometimes it is...
Re:Wasteful (Score:4, Insightful)
Not all non-profits are the EFF though.
Don't be a dickhead. You know who you are, AC. Now go put your fuzzy slippers on and get back to daytrading on your Mom's WebTV. It clear you don't have the social skills required to formulate a proper response anyway.
The idea that some other undersocialized loser modded you insightful just removed any hestancy I had in going off on you. Perfect.
Do what you will mods. I could care less if I have 'Excellent' karma with a room full of asshats like this.
A non-profit is the same as a for-profit (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't have time to sit around and learn an entire new infrastructure from such (apparently) great helpful linux zealots on
Windows works with the majority of the applications that are out there and if this person is purchasing through Dell as a vendor for thei
Re:A non-profit is the same as a for-profit (Score:2)
I certainly don't agree with the troll you're replying to (see my post above in the thread). Don't let him stand for all linux users on
Kinda Small (Score:4, Insightful)
In any event, your network is *way* too small to deal with Win* crap. Even if it's *donated* by MS, there's bound to be licensing issues at some point.
Deploy Linux in your server room and then migrate your users at a later date...if at all.
Re:Kinda Small (Score:3, Funny)
You have, what, 50 users?
I wonder why 6 servers are needed for only 25 local and 25 remote users. Are they doing a render farm for non-profit animations?
Re:Kinda Small (Score:2)
Re:Kinda Small (Score:2)
If their remote users are using any of these boxes for RDP or VNC, I'd be wondering how they get along with just 6.
Re:Kinda Small (Score:1)
While I can definately see the comedy in having 6 servers for 50 users, it's still realistic. While small, reliability is still an issue. When you start thinking about the need for file, web, mail, database, and any specialty server applications it makes sense to spread things out.
Microsoft charges ungodly amounts of money for server software, migrating portions of the netw
Re:Good plan (Score:2)
Active Directory (Score:2)
Having never set up Linux to use kerberos either, I couldn't tell you what packages are available to do this, but I would imagine that they do exist.
Re:Active Directory (Score:2)
AD integration (Score:3, Informative)
I know there are lots of free software bigots on this site and you can find lots of sites purporting to have easy configuration instructions for kerberos/AD set up, but I don't care. This product works, period. And it does it in an easy manner and it does it flawlessly, at least in our environment, which is a true 24x7 environment where uptime and accessibility matters -- a hospital.
Re:AD integration (Score:1)
Licenses (Score:2, Informative)
Informative?! TS licenses are *not* free in 2k. (Score:2)
Q. Do I need to purchase a Terminal Services CAL for each machine that is running a validly licensed copy of Windows XP Home Edition and connected to a Windows 2000 Terminal Server?
A. Yes, all Microsoft
Re:Informative?! TS licenses are *not* free in 2k. (Score:1)
I believe the bold section above is what the parent post was referring to. Unlike Windows 2000, Windows 2003 requires seperate Terminal Services CALs for XP Pro and Windows 2000.
Linux + Samba (+OpenVPN) = Goodbye MS (Score:4, Interesting)
And if you need remote VPN access, check out OpenVPN. It's SSL based, easy to configure (comparitavely), and stable. There are clients for Windows, Linux, and Mac.
What Server Based Applications are Running? (Score:2, Insightful)
If you have an application that requires Microsoft to run on the backend, then you are going to have trouble replacing said server with Samba. If it is an application that everyone uses, then even if you replace the other servers with Samba, you will still need the Microsoft CALs (client access license) to attach to the one remaning server. That is where the costs get you, not always the server software, but the CALs.
You can still make a case for migrating away from Microsoft at that point, but not bas
Re:What Server Based Applications are Running? (Score:2)
But if he can get away with getting the CALs for a single server instead of 6 servers, he is still way ahead!
Re:What Server Based Applications are Running? (Score:1)
What is a server? (Score:2)
And, how will adding servers improve your stability and security? Is there some sort of hot-backup software you're using that works on both linux and windows?
Regardless, if you're using 6 servers for only 50 users you might want to investigate whether or not all of them are really necessary. First figure out what you're
The question is terribly incomplete. (Score:3, Informative)
If you are more specific about what your servers are currently doing I am pretty sure people will help you out.
Now, for basic servics:
- File server and print server: Samba.
- Authentication servers: I believe Samba can act as a domain controller.
- DNS server: bind running in Linux.
- Web server: Apache.
- Dsta Base servers: MySQL.
- Backup server: Amanda.
- email: sendmail, postfix....
So, exactly which services are you aiming to provide???
Re:The question is terribly incomplete. (Score:2)
If the box is
Running Linux
On one CPU
With 2G of RAM or less
And keeps the total database space to less than 5G
= free Sybase ASE 12.5
Sybase Linux Promo [sybase.com]
Re:The question is terribly incomplete. (Score:2)
MySQL is faster. Other than that I can't think of any area where it isn't worse than SQLServer.
Re:The question is terribly incomplete. (Score:1)
Re:The question is terribly incomplete. (Score:2)
Don't jump down his throat (Score:5, Informative)
To the question: Yes, you can phase out your Windows 2000/2003 server in favor of Linux servers. Whether it is worth it is up to you to determine - if you have a lot invested in your Windows server admin skills, and you don't have time to devote to raising your Linux server admin skills, this may not be for you. Both OS's require a degree of skill to manage, particularly for networks of desktops being employed by people who need the desktop to be perfect all the time (which is what my experience tells me small non-profit users expect).
If you are willing/able to meet the skill requirements for the system & network administration, and can translate that into desktop support that meets or exceeds that you deliver now, you need to come to an agreement with the organization about how best to deliver services using Linux. Some services can be moved off of Windows relatively transparently, but those which users seem to be most sensitive to generally aren't as easy to migrate.
If you are running Exchange, particularly if you are using group calendars, there isn't a terrific free-as-in-beer Linux solution. SuSE Openexchange Server offers what looks like a nice solution, but the pricing isn't a significant difference to the Microsoft non-profit pricings that I've experienced, and it comes with a recurring annual client license fee.
If you are extensively using Windows DFS for your file service, then the transition to a system that uses SAMBA, NFS, or DAV will be visible to the desktop user, with all the associated gnashing of teeth that brings. If you haven't implemented DFS, then the reproduction of home directories and shared directories with SAMBA should be simple and, with group policies, transparent.
Authentication of users against the Active Directory to Linux network services isn't as hard as it might seem. By installing the Microsoft Services for Unix (or whatever they are calling it this week) you will get POSIX fields in the Active Directory schema that can be used to write LDAP queries against for authentication via PAM, Apache modules, and PHP, Perl, and Java applications. Likewise, logins on Linux servers and workstations with AD credentials can be directed against the AD via LDAP, and SuSE has this option included in their default install process.
Finally, there are likely applications that are seen as critical to the success of the organization that are only supported on Windows. These niche applications will necessarily govern how much you can remove Windows from your back office.
In general, the introduction of a few Linux server into your back office is as painful as you want to make it. Moving user or customer facing services to Linux has to be an organizational decision, but it doesn't present a lot of technical problems. The biggest thing to remember is that you are meddling with the culture of the organization. These 50 people are doing something they consider very important, and they are not interested in what is cool to a bunch of geeks. If you thing Linux will save you enough money to buy 'IT goodies' then you shouldn't even bother, because it isn't the right motivation. Linux can save money, it can be more secure, and it can be more stable, but all of those things are irrelevant if they users are pissed off because 'it worked fine before you changed things'.
My advice is to use Linux to deploy new services, integrate it into the existing network, but only replace something that works when it is time to upgrade (since it will break anyway) or when it stops working. Be open and honest when you deploy something, when it breaks as well as when it works fine, and if you blow it up, take responsibility and don't blame someone else.
Hrm.... (Score:2)
The support is there fore most distros to use an AD server for authentication, (users, not groups, and the users must exist in the password file). On fedora, which I recommend as an alternate to RHEL (RedHat is the easiest to configure in this area imho), the command to look at is authconfig. Enter your domain, your primary and secondary servers, and your AD auth setup is done.
(2) VPN:
consider using PopTop [poptop.org] as a pptp vpn server for linux. There is documentation available but there are also other way [tldp.org]
A lot of choices (Score:4, Interesting)
Now for the application stack. I prefer using Novell's eDirectory [novell.com] as opposed to Microsoft's Active Directory. It'll run on Linux so that's one less Windows server right there. The price is based on a per user basis which comes up to $2 per user! Not a bad price. Tie that in with all your Linux services such as Samba, IMAP server, Postfix with eDirectory using the LDAP protocol. Their password self-service [novell.com] option is pretty enticing as well.
While we're on the topic of Novell and moving away from Windows on servers, look into GroupWise [novell.com] as a messaging server instead of MS Exchange. Again, it runs on Linux as well a bunch of other platforms and has cross platform clients so you're not limited to Windows for end users either.
Devils Advocate, have you *asked* MS? (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, you really need to decide if it is the right tool and if you can make it the right tool. Before doing that, consider your current setup and your current upgrade path. Is MS wrong for you? Maybe not. Do you qualify for Non-profit MS licensing? [microsoft.com] Yes, it is evil and I should be lashed for suggesting it. However, it is important to know that the option exists. If you do qualify, you are not going to get a better licensing option from MS at your size in all liklihood. Small Business Server 2k3 is definitely targetted at your size organization; find out what pricing you can get for it from the MS marketroids. Let them even give their TCO arguments to you. Remember them, write them down, you'll need them.
Once you have that info, you have the ammunition to help justify your linux proposal. Or you won't and you'll have at least chosen the Evil Empire with thought...
Don't make the switch just because the zealots are pushing you to. Make the switch when it is the right economical, business & technical supportable option. Learn Samba. Prove it works to yourself. Bring in a workstation with it and prove it works to the non-profit. Prove the TCO argument. You *will* win if they really listen.
Two related things you might want to consider (Score:2)
Contact MS (Score:2)
Re:Contact MS (Score:2)
Microsoft Flunkie?
LK
Take a look at this... (Score:1)
The European Union offers a 148 page migration guide for going from Windows to GNU/Linux. The IDA-project [eu.int] produced this high-quality must-read [netproject.com].
You go now.
Re:Take a look at this... (Score:1)
hmmm, I did not read it yet, but is this still up to date and valid?
Re:Take a look at this... (Score:1)
A real answer... (Score:5, Informative)
I run a corporate AD forest that covers 3 countries. We have 3 primary AD controllers at the corporate office and a local AD controller at each major branch office. I've started integrating Linux into the mix, with an Oracle server, Mail server, DNS server, and a few application servers.
The hardest part has been getting Kerberos to properly authenticate with the AD tree. Basically, strip an off-the-shelf copy of Linux of anything related to Kerberos, then install a fresh copy of it from MIT. Once you've got that working, go pick up a copy of pam_krb5 and plug that into the PAM system. From then on out, all the linux services can authenticate with the AD tree through Kerberos.
If you want to share files, then you'll need to go the Samba route, but you don't have to start there. Plenty of Linux services (Courier IMAP, QMail, Bind, etc) work just fine on an AD forest without Samba.
I'm not sure if I'd trust my entire enterprise to Linux just yet. The time involved in figuring out which of the 5,000 configuration files I need to update to add a user isn't worth the ~$15 per user license of Windows. A single Windows 2003 server license plus users is very reasonable. It's the cost of 10+ server licenses that will kill you. Run a Windows AD controller and use Linux for the services on your network.
Re:A real answer... (Score:2)
I've been involved in investigating Linux for our enterprise, and have been completely underwhelmed. Kerberos usually doesn't work out of the box for authentication and administering a few thousand of these machines is going to be a nightmare.
By the time we start maintaining our own distro, train our support people and shove linux down the user's throats, we'll have spent 5x more than the cheap Windows licenses.
Re:A real answer... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A real answer... (Score:2)
Re:A real answer... (Score:2)
What were you investigating it for? It sounds like using Linux servers to replace Microsoft servers on Microsoft specific tasks in an all Microsoft environment using staff that are Microsoft trained. Well yeah I guess Microsoft does probably do a pretty job under those conditions.
You misspelled it, you f*ckt*rd! (Score:1)
Re:You misspelled it, you f*ckt*rd! (Score:1)
Oh, the humanity!
Re:A real answer... (Score:1)
Re:A real answer... (Score:2)
Non-profit Open Source Initiative (Score:1)
Integrating Linux into a Windows Network? (Score:1)
Look for Non-Profit Pricing (Score:2)
Check out TechSoup [techsoup.com].
The real problem is the pc with win, if xp home (Score:1)
Re:The real problem is the pc with win, if xp home (Score:1)