Taking My Freedom With Me to China? 1392
Solo Han asks: "I'm considering a move to China next year, and while I have just as many problems as y'all do with the government, I still like the freedoms afforded me, especially when it comes to access of information. Chinese citizens, however, do not have the same freedoms, as we are constantly reminded here on slash-o-dot. Pr0n, mp3z, and games aside, what are the things that those of you in the Celestial Kingdom know you cannot access, and specifically, what are the websites, search engines, news sites, and other sites that are classed as potentially 'dangerous' material? This brings me to my overall question: is the censorship that real, that hard to get around, and how do you do it? What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China?"
Well... (Score:5, Funny)
Does that answer your question?
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
Regardless, I found the place to be a blast, but I have to admit you do tend to stay on you best behavior because you constantly bump into police with very large automatic weapons.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, if they want to get you, they will find something to get you. Behave yourself. Not for your sake, but for that of your friends and any relatives you may have. If you are ABC (and you know what that means if you are), this goes double. What they might not do to whites, they will do to ABC.
Be prepared to stand in line for any government business. Also, any privacy you think you might be entitled to at a bank is non-existent. If you are white, you may complain about hospitality and get a little bit of space. If you are ABC, fugetabotit.
You'll lose 25 pounds in two weeks. Be prepared for that. You'll probably also catch a cold your first week there.
Speaking of cold, everyone wears a jacket all the time. It's a cold winter over there right now. Expect to be cold most of the time. Thick blue jeans from Walmart or Farm & Fleet are a good idea. So is long underwear. It sounds stupid. It's not. I wished I had brought some, and I spend my winters outside working without any.
Fly straight through. Immigration is a pain, and two hundred dollars for tickets on United as opposed to China Eastern with a stop over is worth it. It'll be some of the best money you'll ever spend. Also, your luggage will probably break sometime between leaving home and getting back home.
Watch your wallet, especially in the train station. I was there for not too long, and I had four people try to pick my pocket. Also, Beijing and Shanghai are not China. If you are going some place like Dailong, or Kaifung, life will be different.
Take amoxillician. The Chinese are very proud of Chinese herbal medicine. Proud to the point of insisting on feeding it to you until you require immediate hospitization.
Be safe while over there. Pocket knives are a good idea. If you bring US dollars, right now, you can live like a king on a beer budget. But that is not going to last longer than the year. China's going to be changing the way it pegs the RMB soon.
Have fun and good luck. If you need more, check out my journal or leave me a note there. China can get depressing, so keep a smile on your face. That'll cure most ills.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Well... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm sorry, but I don't think I would consider mailing knives a "simple thing". A hat, sure; a weapon, no.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Funny)
We're talking about censorship.
I clicked on the article and got the message, "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along" -- which, if you have half a brain, you know is a phrase commonly used when people are trying to hide or cover up something.
Therefore perfectly relevant and (IMO, though others may disagree), kind of humorous.
Honestly, didn't you have a better use for those moderator points?
Re:Well... (Score:4, Interesting)
-'fester
R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
Somehow I don't think it's wise to do such circumvention if you want to stay there short-term/long-term/permanently.
What would US officials think if a foreigner, who is planning to move to USA, talks about how stupid the whole security thing is, and asks for advice to get around it?
If USA can attack another country "Just Like That"(tm), I would consider Chinese's censorship a godsend given it's only imposed within its own country. If you decided to move there, respect its laws; if you don't agree with its laws, go somewhere else. You always have a choice.
At home I have unlimited access to the internet, but at work I can only access port 80, and I would never try to get around company's security policy because it's restricting my freedom to surf, although others might still try that.
And remember, when you get caught, it's going to be ugly no matter where you are.
So in my opinion, if you want to go into other's territory, make sure you find out what can and cannot be done there, and stick to the rules.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, that seems like one of the easiest ways to stay there permanently.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:3, Funny)
Then again, that might be just the way to stay there long-term/permanently.
OT - Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Interesting)
If you engage in that sort of thing, then you are pretty much accepting that sort of relationship. The question is whether your deported immediately, held for a time, then deported, or put in prision for a long-time.
What I think people need to get past is the idea that their political culture and ideas are both acceptable and compatiable with other cultures. The United States and other western countries all have very incompatable world views when it comes countries like China. The only reason that the United States and China can get along is due to the trade relationship.
There is only one place in China that you enjoy the freedoms that your looking for -- Hong Kong. When China assumed ownership of Hong Kong there were fears that the financial strength of the former British colony would suffer. Hong Kong was granted certain freedoms that the rest of China does not enjoy.
However, when traveling to another country you must RESPECT that country. You are a guest, just as your a guest in someone's home. Failure to obey the rules of that country is rude, inconsiderate and frankly, you deserve whatever punishment is given for violations. It is arrogent to assume that you have the same rights and priveleages that you enjoy here in another country. Further, if you really want to enjoy such privelages, then stay. Part of leaving for that job is the cost of losing some of your freedoms. And just because your a citizen of XXXXXX doesn't mean that your country will bail you out in the event of a problem.
Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
Freedom is not an incompatable world view.
Democracy is not an incompatable world view.
Human rights are not an incompatable world view.
Equality under the law is not an incompatable world view.
All of these are basic rights for all human beings. The fact that the Communist government of China has refused to recognize them is not due to "an incompatable world view," its due to a small nomenklatura of Communist elites denying these rights to their people. The ideas themselves are no more alien to China than they were alien to Japan in 1945.
- Crow T. Trollbot
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:4, Insightful)
The only right you are born with is death.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Funny)
Puff another one and get back to gym before they realize you didn't go to the nurse.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
...and sometimes not even that. IIRC there have been mixed judicial opinions on "right to die" cases, although the most current SCOTUS seemed to side with this in the Florida case.
I believe there are cases either pending or on appeal that deal with "death with dignity" cases.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
When on earth will people learn that no matter HOW GOOD your intensions are; the only thing that simply CAN NOT be stuffed down people's throat, is freedom and the concept of freedom.
You can not force people to be free, they can only be free if they really want to be free.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup. One of the underlying conflicts in many of the wars (ancient Athens, WWI/WWII, Iraq, etc...) fought by civilizations was hubris. People become so patriotic that they think their country is superior to everyone else's. Some leaders have even used this arrogance to justify wars. They believe war is "good" because it tests the true strength of a civilization, and the best culture will overtake the weaker one (social darwinism). In their mind, you're doing the enemy a favor by giving them freedom, communism, or whatever. What these people fail to realize, however, is that the only reason you think you're way is better is because thats the way you were raised; to believe everything you were taught was correct and any other way is wrong or inferior. Americans like their freedom, Iraqis like their dictatorship, and Chinese like their Communism. I'm not saying they're thrilled to be told what to do, but they are complacent because they are ignorant of alternatives. If the people become oppressed enough, they will start their own revolution. If another country tries to impose their culture on them, they will become patriotic to their own government (free or not) because of propoganda their leaders tell them.
You can not force people to be free, they can only be free if they really want to be free.
While education and the decline of religious influence have helped dwarf rascism and taught tolerance, we're still in Iraq right now because of the same egotistical "we're the big bad fuckin USA" attitude ("Bring It On"). One day, I hope people will understand that it doesn't matter if your an American, Canadian, French, Iraqi, whatever - you're still a human being. What geographical area or political climate you were raised in will never change that.
Re:Iraq (Score:4, Insightful)
The problems in Iraq have more to do with lack of security than people wanting to express their minds freely. Had the US done a better job in implementing security post-invasion, I'd wager the problems we see now would have been greatly reduced. You can find any number of 'man in the street' articles with Iraqis basically saying 'Thanks for getting rid of the tyrant, but why do I have to deal with carjackers everyday now?' I'd guess a majority were more than ready to be free of Saddam, but they were not happy that it was traded for anarchy.
Re:addendum (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
However, while I may grant that everyone understands there are basic human rights, the definitions of those rights are cultural, and therefore the point there is moot. The mere existence of human rights cannot be the basis of an argument that another country doesn't have them. You can merely say they don't share our assumption of basic human rights.
As far as equal application of the law, I'll grant that pretty much every culture expects this, it just happens that there are always a few at high levels who can circumvent it, and it falls to the culture to police this. So I don't think the chinese people as a whole have this problem, though the government certainly does.
Now we get to freedom and democracy. You and I take as a given our freedom and the democracy. (ok, this country has an elected republic, not a democracy, but the word will do for now) However, in other cultures, the need for cultural and societal stability outweighs many personal freedoms. From everything I've seen, the culture of China rejects personal freedoms along these lines, though the government does indeed go too far in my opinion in enforcing this mindset.
Simply put, you're making assertions that require serious work to defend, and you have to understand the cultural background of the people you need to defend your assertions against.
Can you truly express why your first two assertions are accurate, and justify them to a culture not founded on them?
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
(emphasis mine)
I'm assuming you are not a United States citizen based on your choice of words here. Civics 101: laws are drafted and then passed around the Senate and the House of Representatives. Only after both groups have approved the bill does it get sent to the President to be signed into law. This means that the PATRIOT act did not pass due to GWB. The PATRIOT act passed because a majority in the House and Senate thought it was a good idea, and the President agreed.
It would seem that I understand my freedoms and democracy better than you. Oh, and I voted for Bush, too. I guess I shouldn't exist according to your logic.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
> Oh, and I voted for Bush, too. I guess I shouldn't exist according to your logic.
Not at all; he simply disagrees with you. You believe you understand your freedoms better than he does; he believes you don't have as many freedoms as you think.
Whether you understand the creation of a law doesn't really determine whether you understand its effect.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Informative)
I have a friend from Peru; I've talked with her a fair bit about what it was like growing up; she mentioned that her favorite leader was Fujimori.
When I tell this to Americans who know anything about Peruvian politics, they seem shocked. "He was a dictator!". "Paramilitary forces killed 25 people under his orders, and Peru wants him extradited for trial!". Etc. They wonder why a person who lived in Peru could possibly have liked him.
However, things in Peru really improved when he was in charge, in her view. From here on, I'm going to cite from memory of what she's told me, so (note to the people of Peru:) if I make any errors, pleae correct me.
Before he took over, rebel groups used to roam the countryside and force people into serving for them; she referred to them as terrorists. Fujimori, through a strict military crackdown, hunted them down and basically drove them out of existance. They used to escape to the college campuses; colleges used to be "no-go zones" for the military; he ignored this, and pursued them into the colleges (causing some riots, which they put down). Several rebel captives were publicly displayed as an example. While a repressive means was used, a group that used to pretty much terrorize many people in the countryside was pretty much driven out of existance. As she grew up in a small town in the countryside, this was important to her.
Then there's the drug lords. The drug lords used to call "strikes" if there were policies that they didn't like. What a strike means is that if you go to work when they've called one, they'll have you shot. They tried this when Fujimori was in power. He took the military and brought it into the cities, and appeared on television downtown, out in the open, daring them to shoot him. He then had the military transport anyone who was afraid to travel to work in armored vehicles. Some people were mad at him for bringing the military into the cities... but the strike did fail as a result.
Then there was the corruption. Before Fujimori, there were a lot of government-aided monopolies, and a lot of kickbacks. Not only did this result in public money going to help enrich those who were already rich (and private money going to keep those people in power), but it directly impacted many people. For example, products were often "bundled" with less popular products; you might not be able to get some item that you need without having to buy a bar of soap with it, or whatnot (so everyone would end up with way too much soap). Since there were no competing companies for many products, people didn't have a choice.
Etc. In short, she was glad to trade some freedoms that she didn't personally care much about for safety and prosperity. I know the quote... but in this case, things worked out well, in her opinion. Not everyone prizes having every last personal freedom and having a democracy over everything else... and it's a bit haughty to think that they should have your views.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with your implication is that, over the long term, security and prosperity are inextricably linked with freedom and democracy. Western Europe had to learn this the hard way, and it took centuries to implement democratic frameworks, which most scholars think began with the Magna Carta in the thirteenth century. Those structures didn't become entrenched throughout Europe until after World War II, and only spread to eastern Europe following the end of the Cold War. The point is that the Western world has had a lot of practice and a lot of backsliding that led to lots of nasty wars, abuses of power and egotism.
Over the short term, some countries may experience a marginally better quality of life due to a government's unwillingness to to respect human rights. Over the long term, however, that kind of government inevitably creates more problems than it solves. See the Soviet Union for a large example. See places like the Balkans or Iraq for smaller ones.
If Peru had adopted and maintained democratic institutions a century ago, your friend would be much better off today. Instead, people opt or are forced into short term, "temporary" structures in which the government has more power than it should. Then that power is misused. It happened in ancient Rome -- a "tyrant" (before the word gained a pejorative connotation) would seize power during an emergency and then relinquish it. Until someone didn't want to. The point is that real benefits, materialistic and otherwise, come from a free people. It's only a fool's choice to offer security or freedom, because the two can't be fundamentally separated.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, and lets hope that every single person in power has the same definition of "riot" as you do.
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not going to stand up for what's happenning at Gitmo--I'm as opposed to it as you seem to be. However, I can't allow the suggestion that what is happening in Cuba somehow makes the US worse than China to go unchallenged.
Mao used to rape twelve year old girls. His "Cultural Revolution" and "Great Leap Forward" accounted for the deaths of millions of his own citizens. When the US starts the wholesale murder of its own citizens while Dubya is raping children in the oval office, then we'll talk about "if you think china is bad..."
Re:Freedom is not an "incompatable world view" (Score:4, Funny)
Personally, though, I always choose Commercial and Industrious, which means I'm either the lowly French or the Carthaginians.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that if you break the rules in another country you deserve what you get but in my opinion you certainly do not have to respect them.
There is a big difference between compliance and respect. Respect is earned.
His next ask slashdot... (Score:5, Funny)
On how to take his limited Chinese freedom of information searching to Chinese prison.
Re:His next ask slashdot... (Score:5, Insightful)
For instance, if you're a government executive and the government gives you an allowance with which to outfit your office, you can buy desks for a song. Prisons who teach woodworking as a trade skill offer some beautifully-made things for under $100. They can do this because their labor costs are pretty much nothing. However, the prison can only sell it to other branches of the government--you won't find them for sale in the prison gift shop.
Prison labor is also used to clean up roadways; to dig firebreaks in areas where forest fires are a concern; to make license plates; etc.
I'm not offended by manual labor in the service of the state being a criminal punishment. I'm offended by the idea of convicts being used to make their wardens and jailers independently wealthy, which is precisely what happens in China.
Before you go about preaching there's no difference between what we do and what they do, you may wish to learn what the difference is.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
Screwing around with the legal system of China isn't like wearing a deCSS t-shirt and thinking you're some sort of badass revolutionary. They have those restrictions because they intend them to be obeyed. If you're a citizen of a major country, probably nothing really bad will happen to you, but just getting deported will have dire effects on your future travel plans.
If you genuinely want to be a freedom fighter there, good luck. But judging from the frivolity of your post "here on slash-o-dot", you really seem to have no idea what you're getting into.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
saying stalin was better than hitler is like saying "Being killed by falling into a giant puddle of lava is better than being killed by falling into a giant puddle of molten lead." they're both very, very, very bad and probably very very painful, even if just for a moment.
killing people is wrong no matter how you look at it. kill one person out of hatred and you are no different than someone that has killed millions out of hatred.
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (Score:5, Insightful)
actually, i'm having a hard time deciding whether the original poster, cliff, is a cop from china. posting a request for chinese citizens to publicly state:
- that they are breaking the law
- and explain how they are doing it
sounds a bit like a sting operation to me. if i were a citizen of china and i could get throught he great firewall, i sure as hell wouldn't be talking about it on slashdot.now... where did i put that tinfoil hat?
Re:Just Like That? (Score:5, Informative)
Bacillus Anthracis
Clostridium Botulinum
Histoplasma Capsulatam
Brucella Melitensis
Clostridium Perfringens
Clostridium tetani
Escherichia coli
This was confirmed By CDC records, Senate Banking Commision records, and U.N. weapons inspectors.
Knitpicking... (Score:4, Informative)
Chemical weapons include such nasties as Mustard Gas, VX, and other blood and nerve agents.
Also, I doubt very seriously that Iraq approached us, and said "Hey, we'd like to make some biological weapons so we can really stick it to the Iranians, with whom we are at war. Waddya say?"
The CDC wouldn't have been involved if the request wasn't made under the guise of medical research. If we hadn't provided it, they could have gotten it from any number of other sources.
I'm not saying we never sold them chemical weapons, or the makings thereof... Just that these aren't them.
Not everything is as sinister as you think it is.
Re:Knitpicking... (Score:4, Insightful)
It is ironic that the lead article is about censorship in China. Chinese censorship is clumsy and ineffectual compared to the advanced spin and propaganda in the USA. This is why most US citizens think America is a positive force in the world, and are completely baffled when the rest of the world resents and distrusts them. Of course, nobody likes to be told they've been accepting lies. Most US citizens will be feeling very defensive and will vehemently deny that they could be influenced by propaganda. Everyone thinks its something that can only happen to someone else. That is one of the reasons it is so cuccessful.
Outside the USA, it is well known that the USA supplied Iraq with biological and chemical weapons. Its not even controversial. Its just one in a long list of disgusting behaviours the USA has done and is doing. It was based on the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' logic. Hussein was supposed to use these weapons to win the war against Iran.
Funnily enough, the reason the Bush government was so confident that they'd find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is because they know he had them because they sold them to him!
> The CDC wouldn't have been involved if the request wasn't > made under the guise of medical research.
I'm not sure if that is your personal theory, or if that comes from some actual propaganda. Either way, it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Medical research on Anthrax? At the request of a known dictatorship, currently at war? Gimme a break!
Re:Chinese censorship imposed beyond China (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it's not OK now. The world is a patchwork of territories, with every one of the major players having claims all over. When the western world became "civilized" (debatable), the territories were left as-is. The Brits have the Falkland Islands, the US has Pear Harbour and Guantanamo Bay (another wierd one) and so on.
Democracy in it's current incarnation is a farce. Do you really believe that if the residents of a country wanted independance they'd get it? Bear in mind I'm sitting in Scotland here, where a large percentage of the population wants it, but there ain't gonna be a vote on it. Over the water from me, Northern Ireland has been contested over by terrorist groups (funded from the US ironically) for decades, and it's not worked for them. On the other hand, we have Yugoslavia, where a bloody civil war got nations their independance.
The only peacefull change that springs to mind was the UK's hand-over to China recently. The whole independance giving (which China ain't!) thing isn't all that popular.
Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's status only came into question in the last fifty, thanks to the involvement of the CIA, during the cold war. Remember that? Lot's other places were contested over.
The fact is that I don't have a clue about whether the Tibetans want independance. But I'm not going to blindly believe the usual anti-communist crap that the US has been spilling for years.
Missing obvious point? (Score:3, Insightful)
Obvious Point: Torture of Rebiya Kadeer (Score:5, Interesting)
What was her crime? He wanted to mail copies of publicly available news articles to her husband residing in the USA. The articles dealt with the plight of women in Chinese society. She is serving an 8 year prison sentence, starting in 2000.
Is anyone angered by this incident? I was infuriated when I received the documents from AI. Visiting China may be "safe" for foreigners, but should we not express our moral outrage by boycotting China and its products?
Nothing wrong here . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing wrong here . . . (Score:3, Funny)
If you're a foreigner... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If you're a foreigner... (Score:5, Informative)
Namely they don't want dangerous ideas to spread. So low-profile sites may escape censorship.
If it were me, I would set up an SSH server on a public host (maybe hosted by someone like hub dot org). I would set it to listen on port 80. I would then also set up Squid and allow anyone from localhost to proxy through it (Squid on port 8080). Then you can port forward port 8080 on localhost to 8080 on the proxy server and proxy to anywhere else. Depending on how the GFWC works, you might be able to get around it this way. Otherwise, depending on if it recognizes that it is NOT http, you might still be blocked.
If you keep it a secret from others, it may be low enough to escape their radar. But if you get caught...
Honestly? I have travelled to many other countries, and I generally recommend trying to live under the customs of the countries. You learn more that way. If you are an American, you can always move back here when you need a change.
Re:If you're a foreigner... (Score:4, Informative)
There are automated processes in place for blocking some content, and there are automated processes that evaluate material once it is accessed in a certain pattern. There is also a manual evaluation in which material is reviewed.
There was also something about logging of IPs and caching, so review can be done later for information that can't be determined up front. All of this combines for a list of IPs, a cache of content, and a number of filtering algorithms that fairly effectively block material. However stuff does get through, but only sparsely. If one IP starts hitting a site over and over, or many people start hitting it, it draws attention.
You can download the talk at this site [the-fifth-hope.org]. Scroll down to the one entitled "How the Great Firewall works"
Re:If you're a foreigner... (Score:5, Informative)
I have had the fortune of travelling to China back in 1998, and here is a bit of advice if you plan to make a trip of any significant length.
1. If you plan on visiting or staying for some period of time, try to avoid bringing any computers or electronic devices with you. They have a strict policy at the border to inspect and confiscate devices if they consider any materials within them to be "detrimental" to the ideologies of the government. If you absolutely need one while you are there, consider buying one in China (the prices are relatively cheap). It is easier to get one out of the country than to bring one in.
2. While the "Great Firewall of China" might be a nuisance to you, it will be very difficult to avoid. SSH tunnelling will likely be your friend in this case.
3. Be courteous and cooperate with officials. The larger cities have dedicated police forces, but once you are in the more rural areas, these locations are policed by the army. And they use nice shiny AK-47s as sidearms.
Re:If you're a foreigner... (Score:5, Informative)
There is no special policy whatsoever for electronic devices, and they don't even inspect them at customs. Odds are that half the people on your flight will have notebook computers, digital cameras, PDAs, and of course they will all have cell phones, most of them with cameras and web browsers.
Certain pieces of computer equipment are cheaper in China (mainly parts like RAM or hard drives) but portable computers are generally more expensive than in the US.
The "Great Firewall of China" is very much not in evidence in the large cities. Overall, it tends to block specific Chinese dissident web sites, and not obvious stuff like CNN or Voice of America. I was not affected by it at all and you probably won't be either.
Being courteous and cooperating with officials is always a good idea no matter where you go, of course.
Have fun (Score:5, Insightful)
So basically your question is stating "I'm going to China and expect to be able to break their laws as I was fortunate enough to be born in a more free society."
Don't whine to the foreign media when you're jailed as a subversive influence.
Re:Have fun (Score:4, Insightful)
"Get Around" the censorship? (Score:3, Insightful)
You'll be breaking the law.
In China.
Are you a big fan of breaking the law in general? Are you a big fan of spending days, weeks, or years in a Chinese political prison? Do you like having your legs unbroken?
I would highly recommend against going to China with a plan of "Getting around" the censhorship. It's not just a technological hurdle to overcome, it's the law. And as a general policy, you don't want to be breaking the law in foreign countries. Their jails aren't as nice as ours.
Re:"Get Around" the censorship? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes actually, if they were broken I would very much like to unbreak them.
I'm confused (Score:5, Funny)
I'm actually reading your post from China right now, and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking:
Do you really want to ... play ... a game. Are you a big fan of ... the ... general? Are you a big fan of ... Chinese? Do you like ... your legs?
I would highly recommend ... going to China. Their jails are ... nice.
You have problems with the government? (Score:5, Funny)
What kind of problems? Did you sell military secrets to the Chinese?
Re:You have problems with the government? (Score:4, Interesting)
P: What kind of problems? Did you sell military secrets to the Chinese?
Wait... so, he says he has just as many problems with the government as you do, and you ask him if he's committed espionage and treason?
What did you do?!
Necessity.. (Score:3, Funny)
Better Yet (Score:5, Funny)
To help fit in (Score:5, Funny)
The one question you have to ask yourself is. (Score:3, Insightful)
I do not know what the legal climate in China is but you may want to think about about it very carefully. What risk will you be putting yourself and or your family if you get caught? It could be as little as a polite warning or getting run over by a tank.
I'd tell you, but.... (Score:3, Funny)
I'd tell you, but then they'd have to kill me.
-geekd
tor.eff.net? (Score:3, Informative)
List of Chinese Banned Websites (Score:5, Informative)
elgooG (Score:3, Informative)
Asking for it! (Score:4, Interesting)
Obviously some people break the rules, use outside proxies not yet blocked by the government, and get access to prohibited information. I've been there, three times. I know some of this. And I don't recommend it. If caught, and lucky, you'll just be thrown out of the country. It can be worse.
The question you should be asking yourself is: Just how much do I want to have a long, happy, and enjoyable time living in the PRC?
Why not try living like a real Chinese citizen for a few months just to see what it's like? Why else go, if you're only trying to live your Western-style life just in a new location?
Possible Solution (Score:3, Interesting)
freedom gone (Score:3, Informative)
a) hope you know chinese
b) public interenet, cds, etc. is OK, and there may be more there than is let on. Note: they banned this because it's already out.
c) there are proxies that will let you circumvent, but they will know you did that. It's a moving target game.
other notes
- self censorship challenges; Americans (I'm one) are loud and boisterous. Like to challenge boundarys and assumptions. That's not their culture and frowned upon.
Basically, it's going to be different, and depends entirely where you are in that vast ranging country.
Beware of the Peoples BSOD (Score:5, Funny)
Censorship.....Bah! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Censorship.....Bah! (Score:4, Informative)
Regarding the internet, some friends and I made use of a commercial product with an encrypted IP tunnel past the Great Firewall. As a result, I never suffered any problems regarding online censorship. The only time I noticed things really being censored(other than the propaganda machine that is the Chinese press), was immediately after the attacks on 9-11 when the TV news channel that I was watching got shut down.
Parent's got it right, as long as you give them no reason to bother you, they will spend their time bothering someone else.
-ex
Falun Gong (Score:3, Funny)
First in a series of Ask Slashdots! (Score:5, Funny)
Taking My Cocaine With Me to the US?
Taking Kiddy Porn With Me to England?
Taking Salman Rushdie With Me to Iran?
-
Problem solved (Score:5, Interesting)
A simple unencrypted squid proxy. I live in China, and some sites are blocked (BBC News, Miami Herald, etc). I set up a proxy on a linux box in the USA, and I use it whenever I encounter a blocked site (hit F12-x in Opera to toggle).
It's also useful when there's simply a bad connection or slow speed. Often, I can't get a good connection to some site or other, and it's not blocked, I know it's up, but the crappy infrastructure here drops my packets. So, even if there were no Great Firewall, I'd still have my proxy handy. The Great Firewall isn't too concerned with English language websites. As far as I know, only Chinese and English language sites are blocked...any other nationalities get off scot-free.
And don't worry about getting clubbed in the head by the cops, or anything stupid like that. China is just like everywhere else...you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Hell, we smoke joints openly on the street. Nobody knows what it smells like. We went out on a lake, and the boatman asked, "why are you 6 people sharing one cigarette...you don't have enough money to afford cigarettes for everyone?"
VPN tunnel. (Score:3, Interesting)
Piercing the Great Firewall (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as free access to information goes, good luck. They seem to have several layers of control. The first layer is DNS. Just about any US based radio or TV domain name will not resolve. You might be able to get to the site if you can get the IP address (perhaps using a method similar to above). Many sites use the hostname in the http query to determine which site to serve, in these cases you're out of luck. There may be DNS and web proxies that you can use but these are fleeting.
--
Sigs are a waste of space
Chanelling (Score:3, Interesting)
I call Shenanagins, the question is either just troll BS, or the the guy asking it is too dumb to utilize the answers.
Face it, would anyone comming to the US really ask, in a public forum, how do I get around the US's stupid drug laws? (Please don't answer this, I'm trying to nurture a little faith in humanity)
What a sad way to define "freedom" (Score:5, Insightful)
I do not work for the chinese government (Score:5, Funny)
It's a bootleg economy. Enjoy it! (Score:4, Informative)
There are malls there that are huge, and hold nothing but pirated software. Also, they copy EVERYthing, even entire cars. Honda in fact hired them for some parts manufacturing because they copied theirs so well for a much lower cost. If you can't beat them... They even introduced a complete copy of a "GM" car before GM even announced it. They are absolute masters at copying everything, manufacturing those copies, and even industrial espioniage. And the speed at which they do it is amazing.
It's a bootleg economy. Enjoy it I say!
Let's get something straight here. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to me very few of you have actually been to China or even understand how the system there works. For the same reason why Europeans think we're a country of hicks driving around in a pickup with shotguns who elected a idiot to office is why you think the Chinese is some sort of omni-present superpower that oversees all of the minute details of its citizens' lives and takes sadistic pleasure in torture. You're taking in media hype and a fear of the unknown. China has its share of problems: freedom of speech and freedom of religion come to mind. These are serious issues that need to be addressed but that doesn't mean everytime you commit a crime in China you will be sent into "reeducation." That also doesn't mean if you use a proxy to surf the web that they're going to break your thumbs. The Chinese government are too busy with the same serious issues that the US is dealing with to be bothered by these minor offenses.
While it may sound like the Chinese police force operate a Gestapo-like regime but that's far from the truth. Believe or not, China has laws and 99% of the time, they are followed. They also have lawyers that will free an innocent man. Some people vision of a totalitarian society governed by "The Party" are just too far fetched. Do they honestly think that the police operate on whatever laws they please and the people live in constant fear? I'll tell you from actually lived in China that it is hardly the case. People are way too reoccupied w/ making money to give a shit. Just remember the same media that is telling you to be afraid of China is the same one that ran the special on 20/20 about the wide-spread dangers of drier lint fires and the world-wide SARS epedemic.
Have you ever BEEN to CHINA? (Score:5, Informative)
I have family in Shanghai (huge city), Xi'an (pretty big city), BaoJi City (Medium-sized city), and a small villiage nearby. I have travelled to all of these places and stayed wih my relatives. As a native-born American, I was thoroughly impressed with the freedom that they enjoy.
Many Chinese never even come in contact with a Policeman. Judges and government officials (my cousin is a Provincial (read: State) Supreme Court Judge, and her husband is a high-ranking government official, BTW) live like common "folk," and people do and say almost anything they want. My nephews all play Counterstrike on-line against their classmates, and they all surf the internet. You have to understand that Chinese people are just not into Pr0n and such things like we (Americans) are. So, for them, not having access to Pr0n just isn't a big deal.
But hey, don't take my word for it. Go see for yourself.
Oh, and the one baby thing is only enforced in the big cities. Again, don't take my word for it. Most of my family in the smaller areas have several children.
Re:Have you ever LIVED in CHINA? (Score:5, Interesting)
I lived for 4 months in Baoji and then for 2.5 years in Shanghai. My girlfriend lived for 2 years in Baoji working in University and Middle Schools and for 6 months in Beijing. So, I've seen and experienced probably more than you.
Living in China made me realize how much freedom we have in the west. Yes, many people speak quite openly about what they dislike. As do most people still believe Mao was the greatest person on earth (put some "70% good, 30% bad" in it to water it a bit down). But you realize how much freedom is missing when people criticize the government and keep looking over their shoulders if no strangers are listening. Can you imagine bashing Bush in Central Park in New York or bashing Blair in London and worrying that someone might hear it and get you into trouble? Privately and with foreigners they don't risk too much by being honest.
The worst thing about China in my experience is the utterly useless and terrible media (because of the extreme censorship) and the non-existing legal system. So, theoretically many people have rights. But when a street with its buildings gets completely destroyed outside the university (as happened in Baoji) to make room for a wider road, then theoretically all the shop owners and restaurant owners get compensated for losing their main source of income. But they don't and they don't even think about going to court because it's useless.
It's true about the police, but only because the police actually has little rights. The communist party is the ruler and they take care of things. But aside from that Chinese are in most cases very decent people (much more than in the west) because of peer pressure to not lose face for the family and other reasons.
Go there for a longer period of time and you'll see what the real deal is. Most people only go for some weeks or months and haven't even scratched the surface. The Chinese people are very good at making you believe things are great and only later you find out that things actually aren't great.
(Not often that I see the precious chicken (Baoji) mentioned on
SSH (Score:5, Informative)
If you're going to do human rights work there, that it's probably best to do one illegal thing at a time. So, don't look at porn when your issue is Falun Gong. And likewise, don't look at Falun Gong sites if your issue is porn.
If you're just on vacation, consider spending your time seeing the sites rather than surfing the net. It'll be there when you get home.
Ignore all the idiots on this site who tell you to obey unjust laws.
misinformation (Score:5, Informative)
I was here briefly last summer and am now doing a semester abroad. China really is not that a bad of a place to be. It seems most of the replies are very negative or sarcastic about the security situation in China. In all seriousness, living here as a foreigner is not that bad. Sure you have to deal with weird, to the US, government regulations, but I don't feel as though I'm under an iron fist or anything. Just respect the culture and their customs/laws and you will have a great time.
Oh and if you take the time to learn even a bit of the language it can help immensely. I know I've run into many people who were much more cordial when I told them (in Chinese) that I was a student here learning the language.
Everyone has different experiences, especially if you are ABC or even look remotely Chinese. But instead of listening to a bunch of other people talk about it, just take a 2 week trip to China and see for yourself. I think more Americans need to get out and see the realities of the world (although my cynicism says that when the they do the average Americans will do something stupid, get into trouble, and then blame it not on themselves but on the country they are in)
I won't bother replying to them all... (Score:5, Informative)
China is a wonderful place. The people are nice. The culture is respect-worthy. The landscape is beautiful. The history is intoxicating.
Is there corruption, especially in the really rural areas? Yes. But if you understand the culture and the guanxi (relationships) system then you will have few problems. They ask for 15 RMB for something that is supposed to be free? Give it. Who cares? It's two bucks. Though usually, if you speak some chinese, you can demonstrate that you are a friend of the country and of its people and get around with no hassles.
As for the government's rejection of human rights -- things are relative. I don't approve of everything that the Chinese government does, but I also appreciate that there is an amount of ethnorelativism that needs to be engaged consciously. For instance, the UN definition of human rights includes a provision that allows everyone to live at a certain basic level -- something we know as welfare. But Americans wouldn't submit to that being a human right. Much of the world's declaration of human rights is not considered valid in the developing world because people see them as western-defined examples of human _needs_ -- something everyone accepts. (Read Azar. Human needs fit into three groups -- security (food, protection, water, etc), acceptance (for whatever group you identify with) and access to/participation in the institutions that allocate resources (markets or governments.)
As for Internet access -- it is easy to come by. It isn't the fastest stuff in the world (esp. outside of the big cities) but the blocks are nominal. You can get around them as well. Some methods are mentioned in this thread.
You shouldn't worry about having your freedoms repressed. Just be sensitive. Just like you wouldn't walk around Saudi Arabia (as a woman) wearing a bikini top screaming "you should be allowed to do this too!" you don't walk around China doing things that aren't culturally acceptable. It is disrespectful. And in China respect means a lot.
So I hope you do it. The best seven years of my life (so far) were those spent in China. It was a mind-opening experience. If you have any questions you can email me. (Just make sure that you write a good subject line so I don't click "junk.") Take care! Oh, and don't listen to anyone who says China sucks or is oppressive. The experience of individuals can be awful anywhere. But statistically speaking the vast majority of Chinese and of foreigners live happily.
life in Shanghai - 4 years (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Proxy? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's what I did when I was on vacation in Communist Vietnam.
Problem is, I couldn't post anything on Slashdot because it disallows posting through proxies.
You can still read everything that's posted though.
Re:Proxy? (Score:3, Informative)
Good luck if you do go, and perhaps you can post back to slashdot to let us know what it is really like behind th
Re:Proxy? (Score:3, Insightful)
-Erwos
Re:Proxy? (Score:4, Interesting)
That said, I've set up people who want to have decent access to news outlets and generally anonymize themselves on the TOR network, which is a great project from the folks at the EFF.
TOR (http://tor.eff.org/) uses onion routing to bounce you around within their cloud of secure servers, which makes it very difficult to see who you are, where you're going, and where you came from. You can tunnel almost anything over it, and it's open source.
I've found it to be very fast (even on China's slower internet connections), and those who use it love it.
In this case, they shouldn't (Score:3, Interesting)
If you don't like their rules, don't move there.
Re:I have said it before, and I will say it again (Score:5, Informative)
I know that sounds "insightful" from where you are, but I live in China, and nobody gets "dragged off in the dead of night". It's just like everywhere else. If you get into legal trouble, you just bribe your way out of it. If you go to China intending on overthrowing the government, you can expect to end up in their version of Leavenworth, just like any foreigner who goes to another country to make trouble.
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:5, Insightful)
So those executions I saw where they had the people kneel and put a bullet in their brain never happened?
So there really is freedom of religion and speech in China?
So the Chinese government does not make huge amounts of money from prison labor?
And the Chinese did not lob missiles over an island full of people to keep them in line?
Just asking if these are all myths that I have seen on TV?
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at the posts.
The first one is critical of the reduction of US civil liberties after 9/11. Okay so this is the same as sending in tanks to stop protesters? Plus it is "critical" of government policy! Try that in China.
The next one has this line in it "Ross, a convicted serial murderer who has admitted killing eight women in the 1980s, says he wants to waive his appeals and die". How is this even close to killing someone for protesting? How long has his case been going through the system? How many checks and balances? I want to see the my nation stop capital punishment. If I was Chinese could I say that on a public forum?
Your next link is critical of reductions in personal freedom since 9/11. Notice that it is critical of them plus no of the examples of abuses are running students over with tanks for protesting.
You next one on freedom of speech totally a none issue. A company stopped hosting a website. Not the government but a private company. Get a new hosting company. For all we know they did not pay there bill.
The link on making money on prisoners. This is critical of some local cities for seeing prisons as a source of jobs. You know construction, catering, and staff. Not using prisoners for slave labor. No shade here.
Finally the last link. Again it is critical of US policy. It talks about problems the US is having gathering information in Afghanistan. From you link "The experiences of Shamsulrachman, the villager in Sawai, suggest differences in treatment. He says marines searched his house recently and found nothing. But when they discovered a shell casing outside of a neighbor's house that he says dated from the Soviet era, they told him they were going to arrest him. He says the Marines were civil,"
I do not see any match here.
Your last link... Could you have a page like that in China?
The original post was that China is not as bad as you think and the media over states the problems.
Of course the US is not perfect, no country is. Where are you on the whole safer and free? Your post pretty much proves my point.
Is the US perfect? You do not think so? Lets talk about it. Let's try and improve things. Hey we could try and let others know about the things we feel need changing.
Is China perfect..... Let's just say that it is. The is for the best.
Re:You watch too much TV (Score:4, Informative)
The Christian Science Monitor, which is a non-partisan newspaper I like to read online sometimes, wrote an article about Tiananmen Square. How many students were killed, run over by tanks, and otherwise butchered? The answer: We don't know. In fact, evidence is starting to show that no students were killed in the square at all. [csmonitor.com] When there's no foreign reporters around, and the government is the only one that's talking, it is indeed dramatic misportrayal of the facts that tends to take over. That said, estimates of fatalities outside the square range vary, but it was *after* the peaceful protest left the square.
Secondly, I listen to WMBI, which is decidedly right-leaning. Yet, on one of their programs, one of the church leaders in Bejing reported that the government was not stifling state-allowed religions... in fact, the government was very much hands-off. (As Christianity is the fastest-growing religion in China, it may not be coincedence.) It was a different voice from the now-familiar persecution of believers in China, although, once again, that type of persecution was reported to have gone on in the rural areas -- it just wasn't as widespread as most Americans would believe.
I very much appreciate these examples as a welcomed, different view into what China is actually like versus what everyone says it's like.
Re:How can you ask, and still be planning to go? (Score:5, Informative)
I can hardly believe I'm responding to the flood of xenophobic ignorance in this thread, but I have a number of close friends who have spent considerable amounts of time living and travelling through various parts of China, and the ones being naive are you and everyone else here with the exception of the OP and the guy a few comments up who pointed out the the Chinese government are largely not interested in what you, a Westerner, are doing on the internet. The Great Firewall is there to monitor and control Chinese citizens.
All this hysterical bleating about being dragged off for re-education is just absolute nonsense. The Chinese government most definately is not interested in unnecessarily pissing off Western governments right at the moment (they're even holding the next Olympics there for god's sake).
Now, if you're a Chinese citizen then this is all a very different kettle of fish altogether, but if you're a Westerner, just take along a floppy disk with PuTTY on it, ssh into a friend's box in the US, and tunnel HTTP over the connection. Simple and unmonitorable.
UNTRUE (Score:5, Informative)
Many news sites in English are not blocked...yet, who knows.
Re:Communism (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't recall mentioning Democats, Republicans or any other politcal party in my original post. I was pointing out that our country has also had it's problems with civil liberties in the past. Perhaps you have a guilty concious. Some of that White Christian guilt?
How many Republican KKK members have you heard of? I'd dare say little to none
Ummmmm David Duke is Republican and also a grand wizard. The roles have reversed in this country. The Democrats were once the party of racists. The Democrats are now more tolerant of peoples race. This is also reflected in the switch in the deep south from Democrat to Republican. Yep the south is racist. Remember the segregated prom in Georgia last year?
Get your facts straight before calling some one an idiot..... idiot.
Re:Communism (Score:4, Informative)