Follow Slashdot stories on Twitter

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Businesses IT Technology

Non-Technical Managers in a Technical Company? 438

Futurepower(R) asks: "Before he was hired, Steve Jobs of Apple told John Sculley he was a sugar-water salesman, and perhaps should have listened to his own words. Under Chairman and CEO Louis V. Gerstner, Jr, IBM did well, but was that only because the world needs a global computer service company? Was IBM technically advanced during his tenure? In your experience, can managers with little technical knowledge successfully run a technically-oriented company?" What qualities would such a manager need to keep a tech company healthy?
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Non-Technical Managers in a Technical Company?

Comments Filter:
  • Essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:11PM (#11804379) Homepage Journal
    The ideal CEO:

    Has a clear vision for where the company is going.

    Surrounds his/herself with solid advisors within the company to indicate what is and is not possible

    Listens

    Rewards good ideas and performance

    Discourages sycophancy

    Is compensate for real success, not juggling the books or tricking Wall Street into sending up the stock price

    Is able to accept constructive criticism

    Knows how to properly delegate and referee

    Makes the hard decisions before they become even more painful

    I don't think there should be a requirement that the CEO knows thouroughly the product line of the company, a broad understanding is is essential, but knowing how to successfully run a business is key. I get pretty irked when a manager says something like, "Well, why can't we just build a database in Access? It's easy to do, I do it all the time!", when the product is actually going to be rather large and require something more robust. It's a pretty good indication there's an oversimplificator on the loose and trouble is around the bend.

    • Re:Essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Floody ( 153869 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:17PM (#11804461)
      Amen to that.

      My worst employers have been those who were not only technically incompetent but incapable of realizing their limitations.

      The best? Those with enough technical skills, background or knowledge to realize that (a) things are not always as they appear and (b) doing things the Right Way has long-term benefits that overshadow the "quick fix." Translation: you don't have to know how to do everything or how everything works as long as you know that your knowledge is limited and someone else more technically minded probably should be listened to.
      • Re:Essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

        by lampajoo ( 841845 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:36PM (#11804723)
        What goes along with that though is being really good at spotting liars. a non-technical CEO can have smoke blown up his/her ass really easy by techies trying to get their way. If you're going to be delegating and taking ideas from more knowledgeable people you have to have a good bullshit meter.

        from that movie The Aquatic Life: "I don't know what you just said but I know it's bullshit."
        • Re:Essentials (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Duhavid ( 677874 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @05:20PM (#11806709)
          Most of the CEO's that I have observed have become so adept at the art of spin that they are no longer capable of realizing when they are being spun.

          I agree with you wholeheartedly.
        • Re:Essentials (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Fnkmaster ( 89084 )
          The reason this is such an issue is that in many other businesses, it's impossible to blow as much smoke up somebody's ass as it is in the tech sector. It's hard for somebody who hasn't seen it in a hands-on way to recognize that just because software vendor X says their product has feature Y doesn't mean a damned thing because everybody lies in the industry. Especially when the word "enterprise" appears in front of "software" - that generally means "the features we are describing to you don't exist, we j
      • by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @03:42PM (#11805600) Homepage

        Agreed, managers must know enough to realize their limitations. Not only was the recently fired HP CEO Carly Fiorina not able to realize her limitations, for example, she did not think her limitations mattered.

        People say that the printer division is HP's last profitable division. However, it is not the printers that make money, but selling ink for $8,000 per gallon [ebusinessforum.com] (mostly cheap solvent, bought in tank car loads).

        If that is correct, HP is not a real business, but one that depends on taking advantage of its customers to make money.

        If that is true, then Carly Fiorina was not a businesswoman at all, but merely able to give the appearance of competence. And that, in turn, means that people who write for the business press are completely incompetent, too.

        Similarly, often the business press claims that Microsoft is a successful company. But would Microsoft have been successful if it had not had a very unusual situation in which it was able to arrange a virtual monopoly by breaking the antitrust law? Someone who had a monopoly on water, for example, could make Bill Gates look like a poor man in a week.

        However, I have some disagreement with what you said. You said, "Translation: you don't have to know how to do everything or how everything works as long as you know that your knowledge is limited and someone else more technically minded probably should be listened to."

        The problem with that is the manager must have enough technical knowledge to understand very well who has more technical knowledge than he, and who can therefore be trusted. Typically, that's a lot more technical knowledge than what people mean when they say "you don't have to know how to do everything or how everything works".
        • If that is correct, HP is not a real business, but one that depends on taking advantage of its customers to make money.

          So selling a product at a profit isn't a real business? What would they have to do to count as a real business? How is selling something taking advantage of the customers? Because the prices are too high? Then who decides what are high prices?

          It sounds as if you're bitter because ink prices are too high. Personally I wouldn't know, I rarely use my printer and when I do it prints all fun
        • by lew3004 ( 577895 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @08:07PM (#11808275)
          Your last sentence sparked a reminder in me back in my days as an engineering student (no, not software or IT). We were all handed, as usual, the customary stack of shit we had to do to complete the course as well as a list of books we would have to purchase. The book bill alone was almost $900 and by the end of the first week we were all wondering: would we have to actually KNOW all this crap? The standard questions started flowing. Will this be on the test? What will I actually do with this information? Will I ever use it? Will I pass this course? As it turns out, as usual, the correct questions were not being asked. I finally broke down to visit my Professor (also my student advisor) for some tutoring help. When asked if I had to memorize all this shi...I mean stuff, he gave me the most insightful answer I've ever heard since: "I don't expect you to memorize this information to be an Engineer, however I expect you to know where to find it." I think this is true of this post as well. A good manager is kind of like the captain of a ship. He may not have the immediate answer but he never, under any circumstances, lets the crew know that because he can find it and find it quickly. Being less reactionary and more problem-solving driven is often the more successful, if less traveled, path to thriving today. I wish more managers understood that.
      • by EmbeddedJanitor ( 597831 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @04:13PM (#11805959)
        ... you know the ones... they **think** they know technical stuff and maybe they did ten years ago. They hear buzzwords and throw them around. They want to be making decisions because not doing so makes them feel not in control. They are influential and the brown-nosers listen to them, so they build momentum with bad ideas that need to be reversed and replaced with good ideas.

        Unfortunately good technical savvy requires one stay up to date and keep trying things out.Examples of very stupid stuff I've heard:

        "This product must be built with C++": Umm, err, the was no C++ compiler available for the CPU in question. There was one for a similar CPU - it could be made to work but would not exploit some nifty features and would generate bloaty slow code. The current Code base which was to be reused was C, so an effort was started to C++-ify the code. A lot of time was lost trying to comply with, then refute, this "wisdom".

        "You can trade off memory against CPU for performance": Semi-true, sometimes. So the system needed about 4 MIPs of CPU and about 128kB of RAM. The CPU could only deliver about 2 MIPs. No problem says the manager, just double the RAM to 256kB. Unfortunately this "decision" was made while the true techies were on vacation. Cost a bundle of money and time to cancel the order and relay the board with a stonkier CPU.

        "SPI is better than RS232": True, for many things... except the RS232 interface was removed from the device and the SPI bus was made available to the outside world. Instead of being able to just plug in to a PC for upgrade, a special RS232 to SPI adapter box (which was damn expensive) had to be shipped too. Luckily the product flopped - it would have been a pig to support.

        • It could be worse.

          I know one company president who thinks that computers are basically just typewriters that let you save what you typed so you can make changes.

          That company has nearly shut down an entire division because it takes too many people to do the work. If they would automate what they are doing, they could cut the personnel required to do the work by at least 75%.

          They do everything nearly the most inefficient way possible.
      • Re:Essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jadavis ( 473492 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @05:13PM (#11806625)
        doing things the Right Way has long-term benefits that overshadow the "quick fix."

        That's an oversimplification. Sometimes the right way is the quick fix and not the Right Way. If having something fast is more important than having something correct, the right way is the quick fix.

        Sometimes a product can be developed perfectly, and totally miss its opportunity to be useful. This is a crucial aspect of communication between management and labor.

        If it needs to be done next tuesday and won't be worth a penny on wednesday, you'll do lots of things that aren't "The Right Way". You'll use MS Access, Visual Basic, bailing wire, and duct tape if you have to. And if you've got a good boss you'll know the situation and understand how "Right" you should do it, because he'll tell you.

        MacGuyver (sp?) has built many useful things escaping from drug dealers, and none of them would pass the scrutiny of a good QA dept.
    • Re:Essentials (Score:2, Insightful)

      by John Fulmer ( 5840 )
      The most annoying thing there can be in a manager is for them to CONSTANTLY ask questions like, "Why can't we ?". Especially when it shows they understand nothing about the technology or it's underpinnings.

      I don't mind questions being asked, but having to constantly teach baby steps to the same person over and over and over again is very frustrating.

      A better question would be 'What are our options to do ', or even 'How can we best do ?'.
      • Re:Essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

        by soft_guy ( 534437 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @03:13PM (#11805289)
        I don't mind "Why can't we..." at all. What you have to do is listen to what they are saying and try to understand why they are saying it. Most of the time the business goal seems valid (at least with my current managers) and the technical solution they are describing is a little bit oversimplified. If its a bad business goal, sometimes you can argue with them on that level and never get into technical details. However, I try to argue by asking questions because if something they are saying makes no sense to me, its because I don't understand their idea. And my goal is to understand their idea - not to make them angry. Once you understand their idea fully, you can usually suggest changes or maybe it turns out to be a good idea afterall.

        What I do is say, "Absolutely we can do that. There are a few technical details of what you said that would need to change, but we can absolutely do something along the lines of what you are saying to meet the business goals you have in mind."

        Then, I explain to them using everyday language the high level differences between what they are suggesting and what I think will actually work. I explain the basic reason why I'm suggesting these changes to their idea. One important thing is that I keep talking about it as "implementing your idea" and "meeting the business goal you called out".

        The rub usually comes when the schedule and budget are discussed. However, if someone is saying "Why can't you just build the database in Access instead of Oracle for our server product?" or something really silly like that, it is usually not hard to explain why (because there really is in fact a valid reason). The important thing is to couch your reasoning in terms of business goals and financial costs to the company (e.g. increased support calls because Access can not handle the load generated by being used as a back end for a server of this kind.) and not try to put the person down. Putting people down or treating them in a condescending way because of lack of technical knowledge will not generally help you get your way. It also doesn't help you win any friends. Instead, treat them with respect and understand that they probably have some expertise in other areas that are important to the business - expertise you probably don't have. Take the time to patiently explain why and chalk up the extra time and effort this takes to the overhead you take on of working with other people.
    • Re:Right (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Bastian ( 66383 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:37PM (#11804733)
      I had a non-technical manager that can either be the best or the worst boss in the world.

      He's the best boss in the world when he recognizes that he lacks knowledge of important details needed to make a lot of decisions, and doesn't make decisions without consulting his employees and considering our advice first.

      But he is terrible when a decision comes up that involves something that he thinks he knows, so he starts ignoring the advice of people who know much better. It's pretty much the usual, "No, let's use FileMaker Pro because it says right here on the box that version 7.0 not supports true relational joins, can handle millions of records in a table, and works as an ODBC data source." type thing.
      • Re:Right (Score:3, Interesting)

        by C10H14N2 ( 640033 )
        I had a boss like this who while we were still doing product evaluations, went in and signed off on a purchase order for the product that was the most expensive and also the most suspicious, which we had made abundantly clear, because the salesman wanted to get it in at the by his December deadline before our office closed for two weeks.

        So, turns out, product is a steaming pile of shit and we end up blowing through a million bucks in various consultants, "training" (I use that term VERY loosely), subsequen
    • Re:Essentials (Score:5, Informative)

      by Baron of Greymatter ( 156831 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:41PM (#11804776)
      The real-world CEO:

      * Has no vision at all. He takes his marching orders from the Board of Directors, who represent the stockholders.

      * Surrounds himself with yes-men who tell him what he wants to hear.

      * Listens? To what? He's the CEO and makes all the important decisions.

      * Rewards himself when someone comes up with a good idea. His employees' performance is supposed to make him look good.

      * Mandates sycophancy.

      * Juggles the books if necessary to increase the stock proce. His job, by law, is to maximize shareholder value. Period.

      * Is above criticism. He's the boss, after all. He wouldn't have achieved his position by being a complete f**k-up, would he? :-D

      * Loves the squabbles between his managers. Makes him look that much better. He'll just fire one of them (probably the technical guy).

      * Has his golden parachute ready when the s#!t hits the fan. The layoffs and the collapse of the company are his successor's problem. Meanwhile, he leaves with a $20,000,000 severance package.
      • Re:Essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

        by nolife ( 233813 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @03:08PM (#11805209) Homepage Journal
        Surrounds himself with yes-men who tell him what he wants to hear.

        * Listens? To what? He's the CEO and makes all the important decisions.


        Not specific to a CEO but the lower levels as well.

        Long and drawn out story follows

        At my last company we had two field reps. They wer the first contact when someone wanted a new workstation or something moved.

        Field Rep #1. Recieves order, does a walkthough and checks if cat5 and power in the area, checks if PC in stock, looks at IP addresses and config and provided the technicians with all the details including ip address, workstation name, chassis and port number etc.. Has the PC shipped to the location and tells the customer when we will be there for install. If cables or power needed run would tells the requesting department head that it would take about 3 weeks for everything to be done.

        Field Rep #2. Immediately tells requesting department head we will have it up and running in 2 days. Slaps some paper work together and we show up. Well, there is no cat5, all ports on the switch are taken up, no computer, blah blah blah.

        With field rep #1, the department heads do not like him, he always tells them 2-3 weeks and makes them pay for what they are requesting (out of switch space? Pay up $20k for a new blade). Things were done right and fully documented. We never had configuration issies and when we flew in to do a job, it was done in one day.

        With field rep #2, department heads liked this guy because his turn around was "2 days". Of course we had to fly in and out several times because nothing was right the first time, customer did not even order what they thought they needed and we show up with something else etc.. He would procure a switch blade if needed from another job to put here because he forgot to check if one was needed etc..

        Bottom line, the total time in both was about 2-3 weeks, one done right and the other done wrong.
        During layoff time? Field rep #1 was let go by the regional manager because he was not focused on "the customer".

        In my descriptions, the customer, department heads and managers are all from the same company, just different departments.
        • Too true. The guy who delivers a desired metric (speed of service) while fucking up out-of-metric items (quality of service) is operating in the current business paradigm and is going to win the hearts and minds of the executive class. We have to teach the managers and execs that quality of delivery is important. And the best way to do that is point out how much money that shabby preparations are really costing them.
        • Re:Essentials (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Stinking Pig ( 45860 )
          There's a lesson here, and it's this: "being right is not the same thing as being successful."

          Most successful customer-facing people have learned to combine these approaches; act like #2 in front of the customer, but be careful to use some qualifying terms. "No problem, we should have this done in two days". Keep the rest of the sentence "if pigs start flying" under your hat, they don't really need to know. If they're smart enough to pry, then tell them the truth, but 99% just want to hear you say what the
  • Well (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Neil Blender ( 555885 ) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:12PM (#11804391)
    In my experience, even managers with tech experience can't always run the show. There's certainly more to it then domain expertise, common sense being one of the most important.
    • Re:Well (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Frymaster ( 171343 )
      In my experience, even managers with tech experience can't always run the show. There's certainly more to it then domain expertise, common sense being one of the most important.

      right. so, you're saying that a manager has to have the appropriate skillset for the project he's managing. pretty obvious.

      i think the whole question is moot and original post pointless. managers need to have a unique skillset for the project or operation they're managing. sometimes this means technical proficiency is required,

    • I work in a mid sized retail store, I have a manager who is a technical, but unfortunately he has not been keeping up with his technical skills. He took some courses on how to install Netware 3.11 way back in the day, and he preaches today that Netware 3.11 is the most stable and best suited fileserver for our POS system.

      He believes that our "Communication Server" which simply syncronizes inventories of the retail stores, are adequate running windows 98 and using PCAnywhere 8.1 scripted to transfer some da
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:40PM (#11804765)
      I'll probably get modded to hell for this, but whatever. One thing that really sucks about the IT world, sometimes, is the geeks. You know, the people who ALWAYS tell you to RTFM when you're asking newbie questions, or show fanboyish favouritism about certain areas of tech, or still in this day and age make fun of windows users.

      These are the sort of people who like to be really condescending to others (particularly those they think know less), and managers need to know how to manage them properly, because apart from the usual management problems that you'll run into, these are the sorts of people who're going to get really snooty if they feel that they could manage the office or design a system better than the manager just because they're excellent at organizing source code.

      Now, before you get all fired up over that comment, notice how +5 mods you'll see for posts that talk about how managers should respect the abilities of their subordinates? Chances are pretty good that every other person out there who agrees with those sentiments secretly suspects that they're smarter than their manager BY DEFAULT. That's a tough situation to manage. I'm sure some of this has to do with how many managers from hell lack good people skills, but more than a little of this is because people like to have their egos stroked, geeks especially.

      So, if you're going to be a manager and keep your subordinates happy, notice that you'll need to do a lot of ego-management.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:13PM (#11804396)
    Managing a company isn't a matter of engineering.
    • by EvilArchitect ( 515225 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:21PM (#11804535) Homepage
      Tell that to industrial engineers. Allegedly, managing a company is exactly like engineering...depending on if it's a company that produces nothing but red rubber balls or if it's a company that produces complex software products.

      This certainly isn't a moronic question. Having experienced that my "managers" often have difficuly managing a schedule because it's far more slippery than (their project management software+their dubious skills with that software+their dubious skills with aspects of management in general), I can certainly understand where the question comes from.
  • by menace690 ( 531682 ) <menace690@optonline.net> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:13PM (#11804401)
    Steve Jobs is doing a pretty good job at keeping Apple above and beyond the norm of the computer industry.
  • by cOdEgUru ( 181536 ) * on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:13PM (#11804404) Homepage Journal
    Probably know the field he is getting in to as well as an efficient crap_detector.

    An ex-colleague of mine had the gall to ask his PM in a team meeting for an extra couple of days to write a SELECT query just because the query was returning not just a handful of records, but millions!

    The PM, to the apparent delight of all, agreed with out a second thought.
    • An ex-colleague of mine had the gall to ask his PM in a team meeting for an extra couple of days to write a SELECT query just because the query was returning not just a handful of records, but millions!

      Well given that the data had to be stored in memory it's not an extravagant requirement if the app wasn not built ot have support for scrolling etc. In fact it would be more than reasonable to ask for a couple of weeks to handle very large result sets if the app wasn't built to handle them.

      • And that affects the time to write a query just how, tell us?
        • That was essentually a single select query that fired off another query for each row (which calculated line losses for the path represented by the first row, contractual losses so they were calculated by unusual methods).

          It had been touched by about 20 coders each of which where told to look for speed, one of whom wrote his masters theasis on query optimization. None of them new shit about performance tuning.

          I got an order of magnitude performance increase (10x as many rows per second total load time).

    • Yeah, well... taking advantage of a Project Manager with limited technical background who commits the sin of trusting its subject matter experts is really hard...
      Keep in mind that you only need to be caught once with this kind of joke to lose all respect in the organization.
      If the PM claimed to have technical skills, it's one thing, but if, as I assume, he never did, this is wrong and harmful to the company and your friend.
      Have fun posting.
  • by QMO ( 836285 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:14PM (#11804409) Homepage Journal
    If the manager is managing technology, he should understand it.

    If, however, the manager is managing technologists, he has more need of understanding the people than the technology.

    Whatever he manages, the manager needs to recognize his own limitations, and seek advice for things outside his expertise.
  • by Willie_the_Wimp ( 128267 ) * <fred.garvin@nOSPAM.gmail.com> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:14PM (#11804415)
    I think a non-technical CEO can be incredibly powerfull in building a customer orientated focus.

    I know at my company, Cisco Systems, our CEO is a self proclaimed salesman. He 100% is customer focused. The key is he has top notch technical & marketing leaders on his team that guide the overall technical direction.

    I believe it is this combination that has enabled our company to be one of the top technical companies in the world. Some of you will hack on Cisco for security problems, IOS bugs, whatever (what large company doesn't have any bugs?), but I don't think anyone can truly say that Cisco is not completely committed to customer satisfaction. In the end, isn't that what matters most for any company?

    my $0.02

    Todd
  • by briancnorton ( 586947 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:14PM (#11804419) Homepage
    A modern CEO of a computer company does not need to know how to operate a computer, they need to know how to operate a business. It doesn't matter if you are selling computer chips or potato chips, all businesses are run *about* the same way. The skills that a non-tech CEO would need are an open mind willing to listen to input from all levels, and the ability to surround themselves with good people that know the tech part.
  • Having said that, it is debatable wether Microsoft meets the criteria...

    Well, at least here on /. it is...

  • by gid13 ( 620803 )
    Frankly, I would suspect the best boss for a tech company (from a consumer perspective) would be non-technical, and would demand from his/her systems the simplicity for a non-technical person to operate them.

    Note: I work in tech support, so my comment is probably colored by having to tell people what a keyboard is, how to right click, that rebooting is different than reformatting, and so forth.
  • I don't think so (Score:3, Interesting)

    by alnjmshntr ( 625401 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:15PM (#11804439)
    Simply because when it gets down to the crunch, you have to know if your engineers are bullshitting you or not. There will always be those that say something can't be done when it can be.
  • by bc90021 ( 43730 ) * <bc90021 AT bc90021 DOT net> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:16PM (#11804445) Homepage
    ...and if you can truly manage, it doesn't matter what the "subject" is really. If you have a grasp of the basics (and even most non-technical people have a grasp of some computer basics), and you know how to manage people, then you will do well. You have to be able to hire smart people, make sure they know what they're doing (and if they don't, it becomes evident even if you don't know the advanced stuff, when things don't get done), and run interference from upper management, and inspire the people below you.

    If you can do that effectively, for the most part, you can manage.

    • by Anonymous Coward
      You have to be able to hire smart people, make sure they know what they're doing (and if they don't, it becomes evident even if you don't know the advanced stuff, when things don't get done)

      There are so many other reasons things might not get done. Here are a few:

      • The deadlines you set are impossible.
      • You don't set and stick to clear priorities - "do THIS, right NOW! Forget THAT!" and then "do THAT! forget THIS!".
      • You've inappropriately constrained the solution. "It must be enterprise-quality, 100% avai
    • by tom's a-cold ( 253195 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:33PM (#11804680) Homepage
      ...and if you can truly manage, it doesn't matter what the "subject" is really. If you have a grasp of the basics (and even most non-technical people have a grasp of some computer basics), and you know how to manage people, then you will do well.
      This is the kind of thing that business schools tell their MBA students, and it's not true. I have seen people with good generic management skills fail dismally because of their inability to comprehend what they were managing. Without understanding what the job entails, a manager cannot establish appropriate metrics to measure progress, or know who's bullshitting. These are the key inputs to effective management decision making.

      If you are managing a technical effort, you have to have technical understanding at a level far better than "basic." Otherwise you're reduced to beancounting and trying to find an authoritative source within the organization who will tell you what's going on without dragging their own agenda into it. Managers are usually not good at knowing who to listen to unless they have some means of reality-checking.

      Senior executives (C-level and maybe their direct reports) are a different story, since they're not as close to the workface. But the idea that there's a generic skill that managers have that is independent of underlying subject matter is pernicious and contrary to real-life experience.

      Having said that, technical skills on their own are not sufficient to make you an effective manager. Leadership is a whole different thing. So is strategy.

    • Catch 22 (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gr8_phk ( 621180 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:40PM (#11804766)
      "You have to be able to hire smart people, make sure they know what they're doing"

      The problem with that is evaluating the people you hire. How can you say a guy knows what he's doing if YOU don't know what he's doing? Not to say it's impossible, but it can be difficult. From what I've read, the most successful companies in the fortune 500 have top people who were promoted from within. They know how the company operates and what it's capable of. The CEO of XOM for example started there as a chemist - there's a lot more to running the company than that, but he knows what they do and understands how it's done and what's possible.

  • by winkydink ( 650484 ) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:16PM (#11804447) Homepage Journal
    There's a big difference.

    The ideal executive has excellent leadership qualities. He/she can paint a picture of the where you are going and make the idea of going there sound very exciting. You cannot underestimate this. Salesmanship plays a big role as well. A CEO is forever "selling" his company, be it to customers, investors or employees.

    I don't think technical aptitude has much to do with it. In 1995, Cisco CEO John Chambers did not even have a PC on his desk, let alone use one. They seemed to do OK.
  • Well, the technical knowledge is required of the CEO, but not deep down technical knowledge, like being able to parse Assembly code thrown out by debugger. Gerstner understood his business, and understoof the fact that engineers design stuff while sales people sell it.

    I've read his book [ibm.com] about his experience at IBM and most of it dealt with getting rid of middle layer (IBM had so many managers, that half of the time the secretaries of the managers would arrive at a meeting instead of the managers). Guess wh [blogspot.com]
  • ...no matter who does it. Yes, technically oriented companies have been led into oblivion by CEOs that are clueless about what they are selling. But just as many, if not more, technical companies have been led into oblivion by technical CEOs that are cluless about their potential customers or the business world.

    Don't forget that Jobs saw his competition as IBM, not Microsoft. That was the point of the "1984" Super Bowl ad, he was making fun of IBM. He totally misjudged the real threat to Apple.

    What was th
  • by KhaZ ( 160984 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:16PM (#11804452) Homepage
    Personally, I've been bitten by managers that are *too* technical.

    People who want to dive too deep into the tech, when they're job is more about facilitating and steering from good thoughts of others.

    My best managers have been those who have been out of the coding game long enough to know a good idea, but not necessarily how to implement them.

    My worst have been people who graduated with a masters in Comp Sci, and thought they knew better then the developers: turning them into nothing more then factory workers, pushing buttons in a direction that always ended up being less then adequate.
  • The only thing a non-techical manager needs is the common sence to listen only to the people that know what they are talking about. Managers that focus on consensus building or other politically friendly, but technically agnostic strategies are destined for failure.

    Popular agreement is not the same thing as correctness.
  • Yes and No? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by T-Bear ( 31340 )
    Running a succesful company requires a number of things. Background and a strong understanding in the industry is only one of them, and not always the most important one.

    If the manager is good at delegation, good at recgonizing and promoting the strenghts of his/her employees that helps.

    At the end of the day the manager should be dependent on the skills and knowledge of their product anyway (even if they have a strong competant knowledge) so wether they have to pick up the background as they go or they a
  • by cmowire ( 254489 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:17PM (#11804464) Homepage
    ...is when they are out of their knowlege base.

    Remember, sometimes asking questions from ignorance, asking "well, why DO things need to be that way?" is the route to a good idea.

    And sometimes, you are just asking programmers why they keep putting bugs in their code and telling them that they need to put more features in, instead.

    A good non-technical manager for a technical company needs to be more of the first and less of the second.
  • A good manager (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PHAEDRU5 ( 213667 ) <instascreedNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:17PM (#11804473) Homepage
    - Loyal to the troops, and demands loyalty back
    - Loyal to the managers above, and demands loyalty back
    - Moderates the sh*t rolling downhill
    - Let's the troops know the important stuff
    - Understands the goals and keeps the team congruent
    - Provides a beer fridge when the going gets rough
    - Does not sit still for pettiness and backbiting
    - Mentors
    - ....

    Oh, be still my beating heart. What cloud-cuckoo-land is this I imagine?

  • High-tech companies should avoid appointing CEO's who's educational backround is in Medieval History.
  • by GillBates0 ( 664202 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:18PM (#11804485) Homepage Journal
    Darryl McBride [caldera.com], who with his 19 years of executive management and leadership experience, singlehandedly led the formerly faltering SCO to develop a state of the art product like Linux.
  • Why Not? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Jeff Hornby ( 211519 ) <jthornby AT sympatico DOT ca> on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:19PM (#11804491) Homepage
    One of my best managers had no technical background. He was just very sensitive to the needs of everybody who worked for him.

    Because of this, his team was very efficient and very loyal.

    If you're a manager, you should probably be delegating most of the technical anyway.
  • by clinko ( 232501 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:20PM (#11804505) Journal
    Depends on the size of the company.

    A smaller company will have the main manager selling the product at the same time. He needs to know the product.

    A larger company will separate daily operations from selling the product. The manager makes sure that the team is heading the right direction, he tells the tech team where to go, not how to do it.

    A Manager will work for a large company, but as long as he's not marketing the product.

  • Absolutely. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Telastyn ( 206146 )
    As long as these people managers listen to their technical manager counterparts, they can be very successful.

    Realistically though, Big Business promotes people due to age, wardrobe, ass-kissing, lineage, sexual favors or sheer lottery before they'd do it due to actual skill. So the chances of getting both a good people manager and good technical manager together are slim. It's more likely to find a good technical manager who doesn't completely suck at people management, and let them run the show.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:20PM (#11804515)
    Best quality these days?

    Ability to speak Hindi or Mandarin.

  • The CEO myth (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CarrionBird ( 589738 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:20PM (#11804520) Journal
    Bah!

    Look at HP, a great example of "CEO skills" at work. What happened to pormoting from within or at least within your own industry.

    And people wonder why the tech economy is so bad...
  • by eno2001 ( 527078 )
    Am I precient or what? I just finished writing a gripe piece in my latest JE about how technologically challenged management is the cause of all technological flaws today. Check out my JEs and look for the "GRIPE" subject.
  • Sculley depositioned Apple, and nearly destroyed it. The Apple board of directors seemed to like him, because he'd helped Pepsi survive under Coke market dominance, but Microsoft is no Coke, Apple is no Pepsi, and sugarwater is no iPod.

    Gerstner took IBM from a $15B loss, back when a billion dollars was real money, to a rebirth that has seen profitabililty and respect return to the computer giant. To say nothing of tech superiority: PowerPC anyone? ThinkPads? They ran the HD biz so hard into the future that
  • In your experience, can managers with little technical knowledge successfully run a technically-oriented company?

    You'll need to produce a counterexample first.

  • It is balance that makes a man, it is balance that makes a company. A CEO does not run a company, she/he runs a part of the decesion making process. It is the ability to take risks, be modest and agreessive that makes a compnay's CEO sucessful with his company.
    Just because you are trained by profession as an economist you are better of as a person managing funds and a buisness venture, not always the case.
    This is a broad question to answer human nature and traits and should be asked on a case by case basis.
  • A manager is responsible for coordinating people and processes. While it would help for the manager to have some knowledge of the work the people he/she manages does on a day to day basis, it is more important that the manager understands the needs of the team. A good manager should be able to identify individuals who consistantly out perform their peers. They could be someone who cooks french fries to just the right crispness, or a programmer who always comes through in a crunch.

    So, in my opinion it
  • by myowntrueself ( 607117 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:28PM (#11804616)
    the *last* thing you want is a geek who will insist that all production systems should run the latest, most bleeding edge stuff.

    Geeks are easily distracted by shiny things.

    Better to have someone at the helm who is less shiny-thing-obsessed.
    • Curious, most of the geeks I know want to use the oldest most reliable and supported version of the software they can find in production.

      Heck, we run several things well past their Vender EOL because it was incredibly stable and upgrading had serious transition costs. We practice the transitions over, and over again testing each change. To ensure that everything will go smoothly. Lack of support for the stable system be damned.

      Sure on my desktop, I've got some shiney new stuff. On my servers. Not a

    • Geeks are easily distracted by shiny things.

      Maybe new-school geeks, but old-school geeks value durability, supportability and sustainability over shiny new toys.

      I think this is analogous to the differences between "new money" (rich) and "old money" (wealthy).
  • by aiabx ( 36440 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:29PM (#11804626)
    He was the man who made the decision to take IBM down the Linux path, even though he was not primarily a technical guy. The secret is to find competent subordinates and listen to what they say.
    -aiabx
  • What qualities would such a manager need to keep a tech company healthy?

    A love of black turtlenecks?
  • Enough business knowledge and a network. That's what managers with loads of technical knowledge need to successfully run a technically-oriented company. There are very few of these around.

    If a sugar water salesman gets the right technical advisers he is more likely to succeed than a techie with a good PR adviser.

    In case you wonder, I'm a techie (what a surprise on /.)
  • Should an organization's leader understand the core of the business?

    Um.... Yeah duh? Next question please.

  • by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:36PM (#11804724) Homepage
    Digital Equipment Corporation under Robert Palmer, Wang Laboratories under Richard Miller, Polaroid under William J. McCune, and of course Hewlett-Packard under Carly Fiona demonstrate clearly that it takes a business person to run a business.

    Addle-headed technical people without marketing expertise are apt to introduce boneheaded products like the PDP-1, the Wang Word Processor, the Model 110 Pathfinder Camera, the HP-35 calculator, etc. etc. when none of these products were backed by solid evidence from focus groups showing that consumers had any need of them.

    They also have a disturbing tendency to be perfectionists, and build products that are better, more reliable, and more durable than they actually need to be, adding cost and decreasing margins.
  • by 3.2.3 ( 541843 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:44PM (#11804840)
    In your experience, can managers with little technical knowledge successfully run a technically-oriented company?

    No.

    I worked for Lou Gestner. His talent was making money by laying off people, selling off divisions, and making loans to other transnational companies. IBM is a ghost of its former technical self as a result.

  • by doublem ( 118724 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:50PM (#11804943) Homepage Journal
    I've had a couple of bosses who were very ignorant of the technological aspects of the work the company did. They were CIO's and were hired primarily because the company owner thought that a good manager should be able to manage anything.

    One had some promise. He understood that he was, to be kind, completely devoid of any real understanding of the technology. He relied heavily on the knowledge of the staff and focused on the client facing and staff management aspects of the job. All was well, until it turned out he was a paranoid nut who started playing a variety of political games instead of doing the job, but until then, he was able to do well. He'd demonstrated that a good manger really can manage something of which they have limited understanding.

    Another manager was the flip side. He had no understanding of the technology, and was, to be kind, a hand wringing, spineless jellyfish. The thought of pushing for the cash for a major hardware upgrade was beyond his capabilities, and all of our insistence that the system was dying fell on deaf ears because "Well, it's working now, isn't it?"

    And when I say "hand wringing" I mean it literally. He would walk around wringing his hands like he was washing them, and whenever we discussed budgets or the need for new servers, he would get a terrified "Deer in the headlights" look in his eyes.

    While he accomplished literally nothing and was, through his inaction, responsible for several major system crashes, he lasted a VERY long time, because he always told the owner what he wanted to hear, and blamed the IT staff when something went wrong, something the owner was apt to accept at face value.
  • by blair1q ( 305137 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @03:01PM (#11805113) Journal
    Either you understand your product and its market, or you do not.

    Doesn't matter whether it's Fig Newtons or Apple Newtons.

    Beyond that, people skills and financial skills are fully fungible.
  • by hung_himself ( 774451 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @03:31PM (#11805496)
    There are three kinds of intelligence: one kind understands things for itself, the other appreciates what others can understand, and the third understands neither for itself nor through others. The first kind is excellent, the second good and the third kind useless... If a Prince has the discernment to the good or bad in what another says and does, even though he has no acumen himself, he can see when his minister's actions are good or bad... in this way, the minister can not hope to deceive him and so takes care not to go wrong

    The Prince

    Not bad insight from an old guy from 500 years ago i.e. it's better to know your stuff but if not at least know enough so that your staff can't take advantage of you (which they will...). Jobs, I think falls into the first camp, Gerstner who succeeded because he was a smart cookie (sorry) and I think he probably understood more than people gave him credit for, falls into the second group and Fiorina falls into the third camp.
  • India vs. Us. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by heroine ( 1220 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @04:14PM (#11805969) Homepage
    Non technical managers in technical companies is the way it's done in Us. It's so unique to Us, there's even a term "entrepreneurial management" to describe us. To determine if it's successful, compare countries which use technical managers to countries which use non technical managers.

    India is the world's largest IT producer. China is the world's largest semiconductor producer. Japan is the world's largest consumer electronics producer. Us has the highest engineer unemployment in the world, highest trade deficits in the world, and the lowest quality of life in the world.

    • Re:India vs. Us. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by JohnnyKlunk ( 568221 ) *
      sorry, i may have not have understood your post.
      and the lowest quality of life in the world.
      What do you mean by that ? I've never been to the US (i assume thats whom you mean by Us) but 'lowest quality of life in the world' ?
      compared to say... burkina faso or cambodia (sorry, no disrespect to readers from these countries meant) i'd say the quality of life is nothing short of nirvana.
  • by X ( 1235 ) <x@xman.org> on Monday February 28, 2005 @04:14PM (#11805974) Homepage Journal
    I find it really amusing that this story has been so completely turned on it's head. If you take a look at Jobs' history, his technical skills are weak at best. His real tallent is on the marketing side of things.

    Scully on the hand, while he clearly has skills on the marketing side of things (and was indeed selling "sugar-water" at Pepsi when Jobs was trying to hire him), actually started of on the engineering side of things and has demonstrable skills in that area. This is the guy who as a *kid* filed a patent on some color CRT techniques just one day after Sony beat him to the punch.

    It's also worth noting that during the Sculley years, Apple's market share was impressive and grew quite well. While he made a mess of things in a lot of ways, Macintosh computers haven't achieved the market share they had under Sculley either before or since.
  • by mhollis ( 727905 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @04:17PM (#11806009) Journal

    I just said "goodbye" to a man hired in by my company (a national television network) who is going off to a subsidiary after getting his M.B.A. while on the job. His wife also had two children during his tenure.

    I feel sorry for the guy in many ways. He was prevented from giving us the resources we truly needed to make a seamless transition into new technology; he was attending classes at a hard business school and he was doing the "new daddy routine" in being awakened every three hours by not one but two infants.

    But I do have a problem with the concept of someone who has never actually made any television making judgements and purchase decisions on behalf of people who do make television for a living and whose jobs depend on continuing to crank out excellence. I do have a problem with him announcing: "There will be layoffs" in a meeting when the transition to new technology has not been started yet and there is absolutely no understanding of how many seats will have to be filled in order to make airtime on a daily basis with an absolutely inflexible deadline.

    And now he will go to work in a medical field with absolutely no training in or understanding of medicine.

    I suppose he can complain that he was ordered to cut costs by his superiors but he was too disinterested to really try to understand the business he was in and he was too yellow to push back when faced with orders that made no sense.

    Only problem is that the people who gave him the order to cut staff will now be closer to the "production floor," which puts jobs in greater jeapordy. I wonder if this is what they're teaching in Business schools these days: You don't need to know the business; You don't need to be curious; You don't need to measure past performance in order to predict the future and you don't need to respond to the real needs of the situation. Oh, and you can best build a team by threatening everyone's job in order to set everyone against each other.

    There are some managers who do pay attention who don't have any experience in actually making things work on the production level but, in my industry with large conglomerates owning media companies and trying to run them as if they were assembly lines making widgets, they seem to either not challenge the Corporate Line or get eased out.

    I have heard that M.B.A. means "Mindless Brainless A-hole and in Corporate America today with no corporate interest in being a good citizen and no investment in employees, that seems to be borne out in experience.

  • by geomon ( 78680 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @04:41PM (#11806246) Homepage Journal
    With the recent departure of Carly Forina from the top post at HP, it is interesting to note that there are no Fortune 50 CEOs that are female. The Lawrence Summers fiasco also highlights the dearth of women in technical fields. This is due to inherent differences in the sexes, according to Summers. But even if that were found to be true, it doesn't explain why L'Oreal is run by a dude.

    The fact is, business is hesitent to employ women in top fields. So whatever qualifications you place on managers the one quality that certainly does not rise to the top is a vagina.

    That implies, to me at least, that all the other criteria for a good manager discussed thus far in this topic are highly subjective. Your results would be equally effective by mounting a set of categories on a rotating circular board and throwing darts to set your standards.

    And for those who believes women cannot be tough and single-minded in their purpose, I have only two words: Margaret Thatcher.
  • Marconi (Score:4, Informative)

    by Paul Johnson ( 33553 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @05:55PM (#11807092) Homepage
    I was at GEC when it was turned into Marconi [marconi.com]. At the time it was being run by George Simpson. His previous job was at Lucas, the car and aircraft parts maker, so we all referred to him as George Lucas.

    Simpson was bought in as a deal maker. He took GEC, sold off the defence business to BAe, renamed the rump of the company Marconi and turned it into a telecom company. So far so good, and the share prices soared. Unfortunately neither he nor any of the team he bought over from Lucas knew anything about telecoms. You had to go about three levels down from Simpson before you found anyone who could stand up at an industry meeting and not look like a fool.

    The next big deal was for Marconi to buy a big ATM equipment manufacturer in the US named FORE Systems. They had shares inflated by the bubble. We also had shares inflated by the bubble. But we had to pay cash because our shares could not be traded in the US at that time. Oops. The deal meant that the four founders, who had most of the intellectual capital, now had FU Money as well. So they said FU. Eventually Simpson managed to promote someone else from Fore to be CTO of Marconi. But he wasn't one of the guys who got FU Money, and there was a reason for that. His idea of a technical strategy was to get the engineers to build a bigger, faster box than the last one.

    Orders dried up. The company almost went bust. I got laid off with a whole bunch of others, and Marconi is now a shadow of its previous self.

    Managers don't need to be technical wizards, but they do need to have a decent understanding of what the engineers are talking about. Middle PHBs can sometimes get by, especially if they are not directly managing techies. But if the guys in charge of strategy cannot tell which way the wind is blowing in your industry then get out while the getting is good.

    Paul.

  • by shanen ( 462549 ) on Monday February 28, 2005 @08:49PM (#11808618) Homepage Journal
    How about a little factual background information before we fly into the aether. Then again, this is /.

    Gerstner has an engineering degree from Dartmouth and is a member of the National Academy of Engineering. The Harvard MBA and various honorary degrees are less relevant. Just because he's most famous as a bean counter rather than for technical work is no reason to compare him to the sugar water salesman at Apple.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." - Bert Lantz

Working...