Going Beyond the 2 Week Notice? 252
rovingeyes asks: "Immediately after graduating about two and a half years ago, I joined a local website design and hosting company that was looking for software developers. But soon disaster struck. The chief developer/systems administrator left the company soon after I joined and after a month of his leaving another developer quit, which meant that I was the only developer left in the company. Now for almost 2 years I have been taking care of pretty much everything from systems administration to end-user technical support to development. And after a long time I realized that the growth potential in this company is pretty limited. So I decided to look for other jobs and immediately got multiple offers. Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?"
"Since I am the only developer in the company, I thought giving a 4 week notice instead of 2 would be reasonable, but this happened. Another requirement he added was the need that I be on-call if any disaster strikes with the server infrastructure. Now this is my first real job ever and I don't know how to respond to it. I normally don't outsource, even though the money is good, because I don't want to compromise my current duties. My boss knows this.
Thus this question to my fellow Slashdot readers: Is my boss being reasonable? I can understand his view point of losing the only developer/systems administrator in the company. But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place). Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?"
Are you mad? (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't owe your employer anything. Two weeks notice is being reasonable. Four weeks notice is being professional. Anything beyond that is uncalled for unless your employer has been really nice to you over the years.
Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Insightful)
As to his expectations, he's trying to cover his fanny for being stupid enough to run this way. He should never have had you as the sole techie., or if he did, he should have been working on golden handcuffs. (Even there, he's gotta have a backup plan. What if you got hit by a tiny comet?)
I'd ask myself a couple of questions at this point.
1) How has he treated me overall?
2) What do I want at this point-- extra work and money, or to get on with life and have some free time?
Those should help you decide what to do.
Personally, I would not be likely to do what he asks, even if the boss was my best friend, unless the compensation was very, very good.
And as other have said. don't sign anything!
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Informative)
So it's his fault. He did not plan ahead. No employee is forever, and by keeping only one developer on, he made you indespensable. If he had treated you like you were indespensable, you would have better working conditions and better pay.
He looked out for himself by working you as hard as he could and not hiring anyone to work with you. Now it's time for you to look out for yourself. He can ask for all he wants. He's just covering his ass and I don't blame him for it. That doesn't mean you have to give it to him. He should be down on his knees thanking God you are willing to give him more than 2 weeks, or that you didn't just walk out on him.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Interesting)
to the poster:
You never want to work there or for that boss again, so go nuts with it. Tell them to eat you. They did the same thing during your time there and with this request. If you already have other things lined out don't even give the boss two weeks (unless you have accrued vacation, then take that for pay). If they say anything other than "rehirable" to a future employer sue them (hehe, ok that may be going overboard.)
I have been in a similar situation and as long as you have something lined up, the rest doesn't matter.
More important than bending over and taking it is not to complain about it at your next job. The last thing new management/coworkers want to hear about is how crappy your last boss was. It makes you look bad and not them.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:2, Insightful)
As for the notice, I've given as much as six months (for bosses I liked
As for the subsidized on-call, that just depends on how much free time you'll have and if you feel like doing it or not. (Also depends on what exactly "subsidized" means?!?)
Re:Are you mad? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Are you mad? (Score:3, Interesting)
Nice... a page right out of "How to make friends and influence people".
The IT industry is as incestuous as any other and burned bridges *will* come back to haunt you.
I've given as much as six months
As nice as it is to wear foil hats, at some point you just have to admit you have a fetish. A lack of backbone is great in a lackey but is horrid any step further up the corporate ladder.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:2, Offtopic)
It's a shame more people don't realize that.
It's a shame that people who don't realize that try to advise others to be a dick in the and call it "having backbone".
It is mildly amusing though.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Interesting)
They lived up to their end, even during rough times, so most employees lived up to theirs, even though none of it was enforceable.
Ultimately, a lot of it depends on what the new place wants. If they want you in four weeks, that's where your loyalty lies now, not to your old boss.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:4, Informative)
Everytime I've changed jobs when offered the new position, they ask when I can start. My answer is usually the same. I would prefer to give my current employer at least two weeks notice. If I was in the middle of a bigger project, I might ask for a longer time before my start date if my employer deserved it. I worked for a small webhosting company for a year. I built a brand new control panel to fit their... unique environment. I helped build an automated billing system (billing had been done manually until that point). After 1 year, during my "review" they had no complaints about me. I asked for a raise. They said they didn't see me getting a raise for the forseeable future as I was the highest paid employee at the time (just over 50K/year) which was less than I had made previous to taking this job. Luckily I was on a leave of absence from my previous position. I informed them I would be returning in two weeks and game my notice to the web hosting company.
The brought in a new guy to take over the work I was doing and I trained him as much as I could in the time available. They asked if they could call me at work if they had problems. I said no. My employer was not paying me to handle your problems. They asked if they could call/email me after regular hours. I said sure, but that by contacting me they were agreeing to a $250/hour consulting rate, minimum 3 hours with no guarantee on resolution of the issue.
Never did hear from them. Did I burn a bridge? Probably. Do I regret it? No. I will not be taken advantage of. If a company refuses to recognize my contribution in any meaningful way, and then asks for my help afterwards with little or no compensation, I'm not going to bend over for them.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:2)
This is the part that has me scratching my head. This boss is either an incredible idiot, or there's some factor we don't know about. He's just not in any position to make that kind of demand unless there's some kind of employment contract in play.
If there is such a contract, the guy needs a labor lawyer, stat. But if the boss's logic is "I need this, therefore you owe it to me," the obvious answer is, "Fuck you. It's two weeks notice and I'm ou
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, four weeks may be unprofessional depending on the needs of your new employer. The first few weeks and months at a new job are critical to making a good impression. Not being there is lousy way to make a good impression. It will likely cost you oportunity in your new job so make sure your old employer makes it worth your while.
Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates.
6 weeks is totally unreasonable. The good news is, you are holding all the cards here. They want something from you, you want nothing from them. Absolutely support them however much they want, but the proper payment for work like this is triple your full time rate. It keeps you motivated to help and them motivated to get someone else and not treat you like a doormat. If you need the money, they may be able to bargain you down a bit but remember, every amount of time you help them is time you are making a bad impression at your new job. Make sure its well worth it for both of you or just don't do it at all.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:4, Interesting)
Any time spent after that is typically billed at double pay and is subject to your availibility. If they need you to talk the new programmer through some stuff, they can certainly get you, but it will cost them. If they have an emergency that only you can fix, they'd better hope it's when you can attend to it. I've even had friends negotiate quadruple time (from the original rate) for anything after 1am and holidays.
This will make them think twice about calling you for something frivolous, and it gives you a good incentive to go back and help them. It will also keep them from doing this stupid shit again. If you're going to run with an indispensible employee, then you'd better have some contingency plans for when they leave -- and you'd better treat them like they are indespensible, happy employees don't go looking for work.
Bottom line, and others have said it, this guy fucked up. Now he wants you to cover his fuckup and do it on the cheap. You're under no obligation to do so. If he was a decent employer I'd certainly give him enough notice to find a new employee and get some knowledge transfer and I'd leave him with plenty of documentation on how to run things in your absence. What I wouldn't do is give him so much time that it puts my new job in jeopardy or give him extra time at anything below ordinary contractor rates. You're under no obligation to do anything other than say, "here's my two weeks notice."
Re:Are you mad? (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and raise'em. You're the only developer, so you're the only one who knows how their system works. That makes you extremely valuable, at least in the short term.
Dirt-cheap on call computer support (like me) is generally 50 dollars an hour. Good techies who know their stuff should be about 100. People who have extra special knowledge, like being the only person on the planet who knows how that server works, can easily get 200 or more.
Your employer can't not let you go. They can't demand that you stay six weeks. The fact that they're so admant about keeping you for as long as possible should show you how much power you have in this situation.
I'd say that if they've been great to you, of course be nice when leaving and maybe even do some light on-call stuff over the phone for free. But if they were being nice to you they wouldn't have tripled your workload... they would have hired people to replace the developers they lost.
Of course, you could go another route. What are the chances that they would agree to letting you drop down to 20 hours per week at the same salary? It happened to a very close friend of mine, who suddenly had both the money and the time to enjoy her life. It could happen to you too.
Re:Are you mad? (Score:3, Interesting)
Explain to him that being the only developer, underpaid, at a startup was an abuse of the investors' money and that you're willing to keep quiet about that if he's willing to cut the crap. Indentured servitude went out with the 14th amendment and you already have your next job.
I've been threatened by a boss before when I left. The threat caused me to stop work right then and there and leave to start the next job I had alrea
Re:Are you mad? (Score:3, Insightful)
In his situation, charging 30K for "on-call work" is either blackmail, or ransom. If they can't find someone else because of the high skill level required, that's one thing. If they can't find anyone else beacuse he intentionally wrote code in 10 languages (how's that different from
Welcome to at-will employment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to at-will employment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to at-will employment (Score:5, Interesting)
I know you're on my foe list, but this isn't personal, I promise.
I find your statement very strange. I've never seen a single bad reference (I hear most people fear giving a bad references for legal reasons). If you've had multiple previous bosses trash you, maybe there is something wrong with you?
Like I said, I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, but I've just never heard of someone with multiple bad references.
It makes me think of something I read in an AARP magazine (inlaw's, I hate AARP). It was an article about, "How do I know if I'm a bad driver." One thing on the list was, "Do people honk at you more than they used to."
Please don't take this as an insult. I've read a number of your recent posts and can't see how you made it on my foe list other than the one that started with a lower case letter. Sorry, I'm a nut.
Well, he's not the only one... (Score:4, Informative)
It's happened to me once.
Of course, I also had my *current* boss (at the time) give a ridiculously good reference, even though she knew it meant losing me.
Re:Welcome to at-will employment (Score:3, Funny)
he can't ask you to do everything.. (Score:4, Funny)
read your contract. check with your union(or some commie) friend what's legal and what's not. and if you really want to be a bitch.. tell him that you'll gladly consult him with problems for a 'nominal'(very high) fee afterwards.
Re:he can't ask you to do everything.. (Score:2)
You are not bound by any law (Score:5, Insightful)
Use the fact that you are only legally required to give him 2 weeks notice and nothing else as leverage. Then offer him to do what you think is reasonable. Maybe that's only giving him 1 month notice if a new job doesn't give you freedom to be on call for him. Maybe that means being on call only at times you set. Or maybe you can just offer to train the next guy for a little while.
Offer what you think you should be required to do after reminding your boss that you are not obliged to do anything. This might lower your bosses unreasonable expectations.
Re:You are not bound by any law (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:You are not bound by any law (Score:2)
Re:You are not bound by any law (Score:2)
Re:You are not bound by any law (Score:2)
As for the on-call business, give them a figure that would make it worth your while (plus 25% for good measure
Simple answer (Score:5, Insightful)
No, he's not. Think about it, if they wanted to get rid of you would they give you 6 weeks notice?
Give him two weeks.
Anything beyond that should be charged per hour at the following rate:
(Your yearly salary * 2) / 2080
That's probably about 25-40% more than you cost them right now.
Any hours outside of 9 - 5 are at double-time. Minimum 4 hour charge.
- Tony
Re:Simple answer (Score:2)
I'd go for 5*current salary for the 5th week, 6*current for the 6th week, etc. Make it all clear up front.
You said that 2 tech folks left after you joined, and that you're pretty much working alone. That means they've been getting some amount of tech work done for 1/3rd what it was costing them before those other 2 left.
Re:Simple answer (Score:2)
If you offered 4 weeks and they demanded 6, re-offer 4 firmly. If they hem or haw at all, drop it to 3 weeks, then 2, etc. Yes, a good reference will help you secure a better position, but at what cost? If you burn this bridge, the worst that they will be able to do is confirm start/end dates of employment and salary - it is *illegal* to badmouth
Re:Simple answer (Score:4, Informative)
So while it's not okay for former employers to spread lies about you so you never work in the town again, don't expect the law to cover up the fast that you've never been on time to work once, or that you were stealing more product than selling it.
Tell him where to go (nicely) (Score:2, Informative)
Is my boss being reasonable?
No. When you were hired you probably had the two-week clause which was applicable to you quitting or them firing. If your boss wanted to can you, he wouldn't give you 6 weeks notice and offer to send you reduced amounts of money for 3 months after.
Be firm and polite, don't burn that bridge.
No (Score:2)
Your boss is being completely unreasonable. I don't know where you are, and what your local laws are, but most states in the US are at will -- unless there is an explicit notice period in your job contract, you can walk away with zero notice.
My first real job out of university ended much like yours. I was the only one left in the company who could maintain their servers, and do several other things. (I also got a 20% pay cut with worthless private stock, which is taxed like income, for the other 20%).
Re:No (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No (Score:4, Informative)
Think draft...
Re:No (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are going to coerce people into working for you, it's not the wisest idea to issue them guns and train them to kill.
You can tell where I'm going with this.
Explain all (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Explain all (Score:2)
When people come off as fishing, you worry that they won't stay at your job long, are just looking for a raise, or might be difficult to work with.
It isn't fair, since on the other side of the fence I would want 2 months notice before someone quits (th
Kids these days... (Score:3, Insightful)
All of this stress going through your head will dissapear about 15 minutes after your final day on this job ends. You know why? Because you DON'T WORK THERE ANYMORE and don't have to do anything they ask anymore.
He can't even make you stay longer than 2 weeks, unless you signed something to the contrary when you joined.
If you are interested in keeping him as a consulting client after you leave (although your message sounds like you'd rather NOT), then negotiate with him. Tell him you want to give two weeks notice, but will meet him in the middle and give him 4 in consideration of the fact that you will be doing consulting for him.
Remember, after you walk out that door, your energy, commitment, enthusiasm, and mind will be on your NEW JOB, not this old one.
I had a terrible job once (paid well though) that had me on beeper duty all times of day and night and weekends. I could have been an obstetrician if I had wanted that. On my final day there after my two weeks was up, my boss became irate with me because I wouldn't stay late my last Friday night there. I explained I was sorry that he had to stay late, but I didn't work there anymore. I wasn't being paid to be there. And then I left at 5pm for the first time in 2 years.
Depends on your jurisdiction (Score:2)
If you don't need his reference, and the new position you wish to take it is that much better , I suggest you give your notice and go...
I usually at least do my best to spend those last few weeks documentin
He's nuts (Score:2, Insightful)
Sucker (Score:2, Insightful)
You're in charge now. If you want to work with him, fine, but do it from the position of power you have. You don't need him. He needs y
Agreed length? (Score:2)
Be a true professional - it will pay off. (Score:2)
No (Score:2)
The company cheaped out. They paid you less than your market rate and they didn't hire sufficient backup. Then they insulted y
Your boss is trying to take advantage (Score:5, Informative)
Personally I'd stick with two weeks and let him sink. Your offer of four weeks was very generous; you're not required to give him 5 minutes. His evil attempts to muscle you into doing something that is not in your best interests, or the interests of your new employer, should be repaid with a firm and polite, "I believe two weeks is customary. Best of luck finding someone new."
Charge them hard, make them bleed (Score:2)
However, sounds like you have a great opportunity to make some money. Figure out how much you're willing to suffer and then make them an offer.
You'll be "on call" and will do other work for them in your off time at $75/hr. If they don't like it, shrug, smile, and say "Best of luck to ya. Oh, and it's 80/hr tomorrow. 75 was a one time only offer." Now get up and leave.
Bet they stop you on the way out or call
Your boss is being completely reasonable (Score:3, Insightful)
His nuts in a salad shooter (Score:2)
Unless there's something you haven't mentioned, your boss has no legal recourse, so you're basicly free to do whatever. But do you really want to fuck him? Thats up to you I guess.
If I were you, I would stay long enough to hire and train a replacement. I would offer to consult AT MY CONVENIENCE at the going rate for the area. I wouldn't make any promises, however.
Think of your future. (Score:2)
The last thing you want is some old job hanging over you while this is going on. Give your old boss 1 week notice, take a week off and start your new position refreshed.
Nothing unreasonable with asking... (Score:2)
Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?
It's perfectly reasonable to want something. It's also perfectly reasonable for you to say no.
But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place).
In most states you don't even owe any notice by law, but two weeks is kind of the unwritten rule in any case.
Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt b
zerg (Score:2)
Did you sign a contract? (Score:3, Insightful)
Some people have unreasonable expectations (Score:2)
Briefly, size up the situation. Your employment is as will. You've got a new gig lined up, and no obligation to fulfill the duties when you quit. Other things to consider i
Get out (Score:4, Insightful)
Give him two weeks notice. Period. Don't worry about burning bridges, as you don't want to work for this clown anyway.
Don't do it (Score:3, Interesting)
As for having them be able to call you in to fix anything that might go wrong, don't do it.
Just as an example of what can go wrong, a friend of mine got a job at an upstart company about a year and a half ago, and basically built their entire IT infrastructure. When the company started doing really well, the owner started making some really bad decisions, and my friend decided to get out before the entire company collapsed. Anyway, the owner asked her to do something similar, and she agreed.
Not too long after that, they called her and wanted to know if she could make some minor changes to their file server (IIRC it was just changing some permissions). Anyway, she went in over the next couple of weeks for minor things, and never was paid for her time, she'd basically just assumed that checks were in the mail. A few months later and she'd found another job, and had cut her losses from the old company, and hadn't heard from them again, when the owner called demanding that she come make changes to their website. She basically said that she wasn't going to because it had been about 3 months since she'd quit, and had no obligation to come in, and their current IT person could do it. Well after some pestering she agreed to come in and do it, saying that she wanted paid that day. She went in and made some changes to their site, and once again the guy tried to get out of paying her. After this she decided to just take the guy to court to get the money that he owed her, and he turned around and tried to counter-sue her, saying that she'd intentionally messed stuff up in order to get called back in and charge them more money.
Although she did end up winning, and the guy had to pay all the court costs, it ended up being a big pain.
From the way you say your boss wants you to come in and be willing to do work "on the cheap" and want's you to give such a long notice, it may be possible he too is expecting to basically not higher someone else and outsource all the work to you for free.
Be nice but stand up for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
He has never "owned you" and I am assuming that over the time you were employed there that you acted responsibility and did what was asked (ie. you earned your paychecks). He has no right to demand more from you, particularly once you are no longer an employee.
It is difficult when you are the go-to-guy in a small outfit where you likely have a very personal relationship with your boss. Your leaving may very well jeopordize his business so he can take it personally, but then again, his business is his responsibility, not yours. Don't be surprised if you are suddenly offered down-the-road equity or other future incentives. You may decide that such offers are in your benefit, but beware and think carefully. They can also be more of the string-you-along type of offers and if you are already in a business relationship where you have the weak hand then it is very difficult to change that.
Consider what would happen if the company suddenly went bust -- likely you would get shown the door, any outstanding owed wages and accumulated vacation pay and that's it.
I know its tough because it involves a personal relationship but there comes a time when you have to think of yourself first. Your boss is obviously doing that on his part, you must do it on yours.
Good luck!
See this as an opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)
In my estimation, this approach will lead to less recrimination than if you simply left them hanging. Their response clearly illustrates that you are undercompensated, and coming in with a high demand is really no more than a request that you be valued fairly. They know this, and will blame themselves, not you, if things fall through.
Re:See this as an opportunity (Score:2)
Heh. This is, of course, a variation on the "dude, fuckim" response :)
I agree with your assessment, though; instead of just saying "up yours, fool!" and walking, firmly grab hold of the "hourly rate" dial and crank it ever-upwards until just before the boss' purse strings snap closed.requires 6 weeks and then on Call after that? (Score:2)
Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing! (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason: when you go for the other job, they'll most likely ask for references. There is nothing worse than getting a bad reference, especially from your last employer. If he decides to say you left with little or no notice, you can show the new company that you gave two weeks which was plently, and his "real" demands were completely unreasonable.
Re:Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing! (Score:3, Interesting)
For references:
Get a buddy at another employer to call your current boss and ask for a reference. That way you'll know what kind of references the guy is giving.
This is not uncommon... really (Score:2, Informative)
Some folk
Turnabout is fair play (Score:2)
Unfortuantely, your boss is being egregiously stupid in insisting on later obligations, and you'd get get out of there and avoid all future work for him. Minimize contact. Unreasonable people seldom improve.
Absolutely Unresonable (Score:2)
Your boss is burning the Bridge (Score:2)
He's not the position to make demands (Score:2)
To go that long without finding someone to help you is fool-hearty. Honestly, I don't see how your boss couldn't have seen this coming, unless he truly believed that you would stay.
Your boss has a few options. (Score:3, Insightful)
2. He can let you go, but make an arrangement with you (and this does not mean him demanding things - as #1 above illustrates, he is in no position to negotiate) for you to provide some sort of continuing support on a consulting/contract basis.
3. He can do a total about face and actually do what he should have done in the first place - maintain appropriate staffing levels instead of "saving heaps of money" by making one person do everything. I don't know whether he can afford this or not.
If I were in your boss's shoes, and could afford it, I'd probably be looking at doing #3 and asking you to manage it (at, of course, a higher salary), since I (as him) obviously couldn't find my ass in a dark closet, business-wise, and you obviously can.
What does your contract say? (Score:2)
In truth, you should stick to whatever your contract says, unless you have good reason not to.
The consensus here seems to say two weeks is normal, but every job I've ever seen has had a four week termination period in the contract. Perhaps the norms are different here, but in any case, I would say that four weeks is reasonable, especially given that you have a key role.
Much more than four weeks is much less reasonable, because it can affect your chances of
Document everything! (Score:2)
You've already implied that your boss is unreasonable/inconsiderate. Would you put it past them to fire you as soon as they find your replacement? (with 4-weeks notice, not terribly unlikely). Would you put it past them to pay you at a lower rate for on-call work, assuming you accept it? Have it documented, have them sig
Legally.... (Score:3, Interesting)
And then... (Score:2)
Second - If your boss fights you, threatens you, or tries to intimidate you, you have the option to just leave.
The thing a lot of bosses will try with younger employees is pulling the parent card. "You'll be in big trouble if you don't do what I say." Like what kind of trouble? Can he make the other company fire you? Make you somehow come back in to work for him? I think not. Since you've already got a new job lined up, there's not a damned thing under the su
4 weeks makes you look good. (Score:4, Insightful)
Your boss sounds like an ass. Like many people have said, you're not "required" to do jack, and two weeks is a courtesy. As far as being "on-call" when you don't work there, that's called being an Outside Consultant, which usually requires a sizable retainer to cover your enormous hourly rates. Though in this scenario, I'd probably do everything in my power to avoid contact with this company in the future; some accounts just aren't worth the headache.
However, I would definitely stick with the four weeks, since that's what you offered to begin with. Plus, as a added benefit, if you make it known at your new job that you're giving your old job four weeks instead of two, it'll display you in a very good light to your new employers.
training (Score:2)
Re:training (Score:2)
One reason the boss shouldn't want you to stay (Score:2, Insightful)
What your boss should be having you do is document the crap out of everything, and then sweet talking you into accepting calls from whoever replaces you.
Even then, memory fades. You get into your new job and the details of the old job get harder to recall.
You owe your new boss your full intellectua
All depends (Score:2)
At least here in Texas, we're an "at will" state, which means that generally employment is "at will" by both parties. You can quit or they can fire you, with no good reason, at any time. Two weeks notice on the employee's part is considered good manners and taste, much like severance or a few weeks pay in some form are usually good manners if you let someone go suddenly and they didn't do something bad to deserve it.
But it's all a matter of manners, not requirements. If they've screwed you over in gener
Adding my voice to the chorus (Score:5, Insightful)
Do not allow them to.
Here's what is reasonable for a professional:
1) Two weeks notice
That's it. NOTHING more.
If you want to do more for them, then treat it like a brand new business arrangement, everything is on the table and you should not hesitate to take as much of it as you can.
That means, that under no circumstances, would a professional EVER give away their time for LESS than they were being compensated for before. To do so is to open yourself up to all kinds of continuing employment abuse. Do not, in any way, allow any sort of feelings of guilt or the like manipulate you into discounting your worth. Apparently they NEED you and in business that translates into paying MORE, not less.
Go to the RealRates forum [realrates.com] for sage advice from experienced contractors on how to handle this former employer's needs without letting him take advantage of you.
PS, that your former boss would demand these things of you suggests that you've been mistreated all along and probably didn't realize it (I bet you were vastly underpaid and probably more than a little overworked). A stand-up guy would try to negotiate fairly, but he is clearly NOT doing that, instead is trying to manipulate you. That means the gloves are off and HE took them off, do not feel bad about playing hardball yourself, he started it after all.
It's his own fault, you know. (Score:4, Insightful)
Your obligations here are minimal. Legally, you could be a complete twerp about it, walk off, and not return his calls. It sounds like you're being quite fair, and are fulfilling any ethical responsibilities you may have.
The flip side is, this is the guy's company. Your departure may lead to a string of disasters that could kill it off entirely. The big question is, is there enough bad blood between you and the company that you wouldn't mind letting your boss suffer for his mistakes? If so, I don't see any reason to let your relationship continue beyond the four weeks you outlined earlier. Maybe less, if your boss's counter-offer was galling enough.
But if you like and respect your former employer, do them a favor and be willing to negotiate some price at which you'll come back in and save their butts from certain doom. "Subsidized" is unreasonable. You have a right to not be taken advantage of, and a responsibility to make it clear that you won't be around forever. I would start with double your current hourly rate after your four weeks is up, and increment every week.
By the end of the fifth week, charge three times your old rate, and four times by the end of the sixth week. As your replacement (replacements, if your boss has learned anything from this experience) adapts to his new environment, their need for you will dwindle even as your rates increase. At some point, it's just not worth it for them to call you anymore.
For your remaining time, start documenting procedures, settings, and for godssake comment that rats nest of code! Good luck in your new job.
Re:It's his own fault, you know. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sick of seeing companies (especially small ones) bring on green I.T. g
Quick question (and suggestion): (Score:4, Funny)
Anyway. I'd suggest taking the average compensation of all the posts mentioned thus far, dropping it by a bit, and then emailing your boss the URL for this story. He'll see that you're being more than reasonable (and that he's an ass), and you'll likely get what you want. *OR*, he'll fire you on the spot ;)
they are taking advantage (Score:2)
You're not required in most states to give any notice at all. If you're in an at-will state, you could say "I quit" and walk out the door now. But that's not professional, nor courteous, and the damage this would do to your professional reputation
Take The Money (Score:2)
"Oh, absolutely, boss, I totally see where you are coming from. Unfortunately my new job starts in two weeks but I can be on call for the next six months
Nooooooo! (Score:2)
1) Never burn your bridges. You never know who you'll cross paths with again.
2) What goes around, comes around.
3) Never confuse your coworkers for your friends.
What does that mean? If you have the flexibility and they haven't treated you like shit - charge them your salary divided by 2080 (per hour) and stay. You're out the door. They can't say anything bad about you, and if one day, one of t
Your first loyalty (Score:2)
There may be conflicts of interest here, in which case you owe the interest to your new boss, but assuming not, giving them more control and being willing to just do whatever they think works best makes you look very good a
I had a similar situation (Score:2)
Over that time most of the other employees had gone from working on our main product to be contracted out to other firms. In the end I was the only one left working on our software, and we had a beta of the next version finished.
It was about January and I wanted to work out what I was doing for the next year. My boss told me that it would be pretty much the same as last year, which meant not enough money to live on
Find the Middle Ground (Score:2)
Several others have chimed in here with opinions and experience, but I want to add mine to the pile too.
Several years ago, I was laid off amidst all the fun dot-com crash excitement. I was the office's senior systems administrator. Not five days after I was handed a cardboard box and a pink slip did one of my former coworkers call to ask me for some kind of administration/management advice.
Now, I was given no notice that my job was ending. I was given a hefty severance that the company welched on (they
2 weeks notice is plenty (Score:2)
In general, it's not a good idea to give lots of notice. I knew a guy who gave 6 month's notice, and
He's nuts.... (Score:2)
Do answer simple questions for the next guy (Score:4, Informative)
Lots of good advice. I won't repeat it.
What I would do though is give my email to your replacement. (not your boss, though he likely has it anyway, your replacement) Professional courtesy is to answer simple questions after he can't figure it out. Shouldn't happen often, more than 4 times and you should start thinking about billing rates. Once in a while though the next guy gets stuck and it is handy to be able to ask "Joe, do you remember how to simulate a critical over temperature test without damaging the parts?" or some other question that you just can't figure out.
Your answer should be as complete as you can make it in a few minutes. Brain dump what you remember. Don't work too hard though. Don't spend more than a few minutes unless they are paying you.
This is something you do, because sometime you will have to ask the guy you replaced. At least when he is alive - I know more than one critical person who died in the middle of a solo project. That is a different story though
You owe them exactly nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
If, as I suspect, your employment is "at will" meaning your employer can fire you without notice and you can quit without notice. You can bet your employer would not be offering to give you 6 weeks extra pay or other benefits if they terminated your employment.
Unless they gave you some tremendous benefit at a time you needed it, or really did something nice for you when they could have squeezed you over it, never under any circumstances charge less. Since I suspect this has never happened, do not give them anything at a discount. No exceptions. In fact, you should charge more because it costs them less.
You do not owe them any discount at all and it was unreasonable for them to ask for it. Doesn't mean they can't ask, but if they can't afford you they have no business running a computer system in the first place. They wouldn't be getting an employee to work at a discount, they shouldn't expect it of a consultant.
If you want to be more than fair, mirror exactly what they offer you. If all you get out of them if you are fired is two weeks severence, then that's all the notice they should get. If they want you to work for them beyond your employment it should be at full pay or above since you're not their employee.
In fact, since you are not their employee they shouldn't be getting a discount you should be charging them at least double to cover your overhead (you have to pay the full 14% Social Security, not just the 7% employee tax, you have to cover your own health care (the fact you may have it from another employer is irrelevant; it's still a cost they would have to pay if you were their employee and they are not paying yours), you have to carry your own disability insurance (again, it's a cost they're not paying that they would otherwise), and you have to pay your own pension plan contributions in addition to what would be company match). Also they aren't paying you for sitting around when you're not working for them, which means there's no overhead cost added, so even at twice your wages your cost to them as a consultant is less than that of an employee.
There is absolutely no excuse for a company to be paying a former employee who is now a consultant less than at least twice his employee wages except an attempt by the company to cheat him by paying him as a non-employee less than he is worth as an employee. Which is ridiculous since even at twice the cost it's still less than the fully burdened cost of an employee, which is at least 2 1/2 times actual salary.
Paul Robinson
Re:Its a courtesy.. (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the on call, go for it, write your own new contract, demand at least $50 an hour including drive time. You don't owe them anything but if they want to keep you on call there's no reason not to turn it to your advantage.
For those who think that this is an unreasonable amount, call a plumber, locksmith, electrician, repairman, any on call professional has the right to demand whatever the market will bear; and considering that these people seem to have had recruiting problems they may scoff at first, but when the shit hits the fan they'll come running.
Even better wait to negotiate a new contract until they're having an emergency.
I mean worst case they're going to say no, and if they say yes $$$
Re:Its a courtesy.. (Score:2)
Re:Its a courtesy.. (Score:2)
I know some software consultants that have only a few years experience that are making over $125/hour that work over 40 hours/week for companies. The least that should be demanded is what normal software consultants make, push up to over $100/hour (the drive time thing's a good idea too
Re:Its a courtesy.. (Score:3, Insightful)
$50? (Score:3)
This guy is the company's entire IT department. If he's getting anything less than $100/hour he's being raped. If you think that's unreasonable, ask me what rate I change my clients.
BTW, if you can find me a plumber or electrician who only charges $50/hr, give me his number! I've got a ton of work for him to do.