How to Leave a Job on Good Terms? 755
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working for a small development company for 6 or 7 years. My boss has always been a bit nuts but overall it hasn't been a bad experience. I recently accepted a great job offer for a technology position in a different industry. I gave my boss my notice this week, and while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients. (who, thankfully, also think he is nuts) I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave. Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked, or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
My boss has always been a bit nuts...
Been there...I sympathize.
There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.
I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.
You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.
Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
Just remember that giving a company notice before you leave is not a requirement...it is a courtesy you are extending as part of a positive professional relationship. Frankly, I'd ask him for a letter of recommendation up front, and if he refuses, or threatens to give you a less than optimal review, you simply do not owe him the courtesy of notice.
In short, don't devalue yourself, and don't let him devalue you, either.
And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.
If everyone knows your current boss is a nut case, just try to live with it until you leave. If you can't stand it, just walk out. You already have a follow-on job, and you don't need this guy, if he's going to bad mouth you anyway, cut your loss and don't show up tomorrow.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.
Yes...I know...I was actually being a bit facetious in my original post...thanks for the clarification.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
If the original poster is in the U.S., that will probably get him/her nowhere unless severance pay is detailed somewhere in the contract, if there is one. Most states regard employment as an "at will" situation, and if a given entitlement isn't in the employment agreement, for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:4, Funny)
So you can either "bend over and take it like a man", or stand up for your rights.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
Fuck that.
Next time he gives you some lip, you make your move. Prepare your revenge by eating nothing but Taco Bell, bran muffins, and cheap whiskey for the next three days. Then you wait until you're in the next board meeting and someone asks if there are any comments. Jump up on the table and say "Yeah! I got a comment!" Then you whip your cock out and smack him in the face with it. He'll freeze out of shock, and while he's standing there bugeyed 'cause he's just been cockslapped you whirl around and go all Tubgirl on him! With any luck he'll slip in the poo and fall down, and finding himself face down in a steaming puddle of whiskey-poo he'll most likely hurl like a 90-pound freshman cheerleader at her first frat kegger. The combined smell of poo and hurl should cause a chain reaction around the boadroom as the entire staff voids their stomachs and bowels in a cataclysmic emetic eruption of Biblical proportions. While everyone's flailing around in a growing lake of filth, you slip out the side window.
As the coup de grace, you run to his house and tell his wife he's been busted for child pornography. She'll run screaming to her mother, which will leave you unfettered in his home. Get his daughter *and* the dog pregnant, burn down the house, and create a huge upside-down pentagram on his front lawn in weed killer.
"Just walk out?"
Feh.
That's not the kind of talk that got us through Guadalcanal, you know?
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
The parent post was childish, offensive, and disgusting.
Mod parent UP, baby!!! Yeah!!!
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
>Remind me to never piss you off.
Nah. Just don't piss off Chunk from The Goonies. I knew it sounded familiar:
But the worst thing I ever done -- I mixed a pot of fake puke at home and then I went to this movie theater, hid the puke in my jacket, climbed up to the balcony and then, t-t-then, I made a noise like this: hua-hua-hua-huaaaaaaa -- and then I dumped it over the side, all over the people in the audience. And then, this was horrible, all the people started getting sick and throwing up all over each other. I never felt so bad in my entire life.
MP3 Version [reelwavs.com]
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:3, Funny)
Hmm, I think life just got a little more dangerous...
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
Your boss isn't Mr. Krabs. This is the real world and he has to live in it. I'm sure that unless he's truly crazy he really doesn't want to deal with a lot of legal crap just because you hurt his feelings or whatever.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
With a little luck, they will kill each other.
Other choices:
- Really Smelly Homeless Guy
- Seriously, Seriously Flaming Gay Guy (best if boss is a homophobe)
- One of those guys who is SUPER nice, but a TOTAL fuck-up (they are very hard to fire)
Use your imagination.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:4, Interesting)
Heh, I know one of these who needs a job. Guy came in as a consultant on a huge db conversion project we were insanely understaffed on, so as a highly paid contractor, they gave him a part of it and left him alone.
Naturally his part got delayed and whatnot, and as it became clear toward the end of the main body of the project was nearing an end, he was hired on by management in a senior admin position, despite some vague warnings from those in the trenches.
Once his part of it got finished, well behind the rest, all the rank-and-file admins realized he was a complete incompetent, who would just drone on and on based on bad premises to anyone who would listen. To anyone who didn't know better (read: management) he was a brilliant admin with biting analysis. To everyone with a clue, he was a clueless idiot doing pointless busiwork to hide it.
Of course, management loved him, and he stayed with us for nearly THREE YEARS before finally there were enough documented cases of him destroying stuff for management to give in and restrict his rights -- whereupon he used what access he did still have to let himself back in under someone else's ID. At that point, caught red-handed, and finally confessing after denying it, he FINALLY got canned because there was simply no other option.
So, yeah, hire him. Your boss deserves it.
Re:And now: My two cents... (Score:3, Interesting)
If they're pros, they'll understand, really. And if they do say they'd like you to start immediately, just pack your personal belongings at your old office, then inform the old ma
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.
Speaking from a point of view of someone who spent years working with people in therapy, it sounds like this person has some issues that go deeper than the anger and frustration most people deal with. While I would normally advocate standing up for yourself (which isn't necessarily a confrontation), that fact that you start by saying he's always been a little nuts makes me suspect any confrontation will blow up.
In simple terms, it sounds like he's in denial over what's going on and blames you. In his mind, he probably already sees you as disloyal and even out to get him. This is not a reasonable view, but everything you say fits with that possibility. If that is so, anything you do will be viewed as an attack, and only add fuel to his fire of hate. So if you confront him, there's a chance he could blow up, start calling you names, or just walking away, then burning you in some other way.
Only you can decide what is and is not important to you. At this point, he's made it clear he considers it okay to withhold your paycheck. I can't tell if it's a bluff, or if he's serious (from what little we have here), but be aware that he is likely holding it hostage. Normally a boss thinks he has control becasue he can fire someone or stop paying them. With only a short time left, he feels he can no longer control you, so he's using that paycheck as his way to make sure you stay in line.
While it sounds lame, you might be best to try to difuse the situations with humor -- just not at his expense. Or, if he trashes you in front of a crowd of employees or clients, and you feel a need to stick up for yourself, you can always say something like, "He's been treating me that way ever since I turned in my notice,' and try to make it into a joke. He won't take it well, though.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless that final paycheque is big, BIG bucks - walk out the door and don't come back.
Really, is the stress and bullshit worth the money? If it's gonna be a month or so, put your expenses on a credit card for a month (keep 'em reasonable), and just pay it off when you get the new job.
In the meantime, you owe yourself some R&R by the sound of it, so take a month (or whatever) off and enjoy life
N.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
If he withholds your paycheck, he's in deep shit. In Washington state, and I imagine other places, having your paycheck withheld automatically entitles you to double the amount, plus punitive damages.
He simply has no right to threaten such an act. If I were you, I'd say, "I dare you...". In any case, investigate your rights in this matter. You might be in a position to burn some more bridges yet come out with a lot o
That final paycheck (Score:5, Informative)
In Massachusetts, if I remember correctly the employer may not withhold a paycheck for more than a week after the paycheck for the pay period would normally be issued, and in the case of a termination or layoff, they're required to issue a paycheck, expenses, and pay for accrued vacation all on the day of the termination or layoff. I'm not sure what the penalties are. The attorney general's office can refer you to appropriate legal resources, or may even choose to get directly involved with getting you paid.
I had one incident of an employer trying to not pay me. The AG's office said that yes, they'd take legal action on my behalf if necessary, but first they wanted me to simply demand the money in their name. That got me my money, much to my surprise.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Funny)
Hell, in Texas you can probably shoot his ass for pulling shit like that.
Re:My two cents... (Score:4, Funny)
In the State of Texas, you get SHOT for withholding paychecks!
Animal Cruelty (Score:4, Funny)
In the UK, if you shot someone's mule to settle a score, the RSPCA would find out and you'd likely get sent to prison.
Anyway, I thought they all had tractors in Texas nowadays, what with all that oil.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
Whatever he th
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Insightful)
You're right, it's not okay to withhold. But people often do things that aren't okay. It's also best not to use other "force" until the boss has actually "officially" said he'll withhold the check, or does. Then there's many things that can be done -- and the last thing I'd do is contact a lawyer (and that's from someone with a good number of lawyer friends a
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Insightful)
The HR department called me to say they would only honor my vacation request if I came in for an exit interview. I told them there was no way I was setting foot in their building again after the way I'd been treated. I put up with it for three years and, one day, made the decision that I'd had enough. It was like leaving a bad marriage with no money, no clothes, no wh
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
Technically, they may have been legally in the right in your case. To take a vacation, you have to come back at the end. I.e. you were required to come in for the exit interview.
This guy's situation is different. He's actively working. It is not legal to withhold a pay check for work actually done. It is legal to fire someone (and not pay them) for not complying with reasonable work demands (e.g. an exit interview).
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad work experience. However, an exit interview is not an unreasonable request. Heck, I'd think of it as standard procedure.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I'd have loved to give them that interview - and I would have been the most helpful, respectful, level headed example of a model employee those HR people had ever seen. I would have explained with great reluctance that my valuable contribution to their company was ceasing as a last resort, that I had been driven to it, and that it probably wouldn't be long till they were sitting down with the next victim. Most HR people live in a fantasy world, fed BS by both management and employees, occasional
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe not, but it all depends on how the boss perceives it. For example, soon after I left teaching in treatment programs, I worked as a property manager for someone in serious need of therapy. He was an alcoholic in denial, as well as gay and in denial (he had relationships, but went to absurd lengths to hide them -- it would have been comical if this person wasn't so sick). One time a property owner called up, asking me a ton of questions about a problem with one of his properties we managed. It turned out later that the problem was caused because my boss (the drunk) had not done his job. I didn't know that at the time, so when the boss (who was in the room listening) didn't hear me take full blame for everything immediately, once I hung up, he started yelling at me, saying I screwed up and was blaming him -- and that I was out to get him and his job.
If you want to analyze it, he knew he screwed up, but couldn't accept it, so since he "knew" it was his fault, even without me knowing it -- or accusing, or anything, in his eyes, since I did not just roll over and take it, he assumed I knew it was him, and was trying to blame him. To you and I, it doesn't make sense, but to him, it did.
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I am pointing out that there is enough to make me (a former pro in dealing with people who need treatment) suspect there is a problem with this boss. What you and I see as a challenge, the boss very likely will see as an attack. It doesn't have to be an attack, it doesn't have to look like one -- all it takes to set a person like this off is for him, in his twisted mind, to see it as an attack. I've seen many people in treatment (or in need of treatment) who have lied through their teeth, and all it took was one person even vaguely suggesting one of their lies was not 100% correct to set that person off.
Yes, he's making false accusations, but in the post, the writer made it clear the clients and employees knew the boss was nuts. If he can gracefully difuse the situation, and continue to act with integrity, none of them will have any question who is professional and trustworthy. Don't act under the assumption that because someone is calling names, those names reflect at all on the "callee". More than anything, and this seems especially true in this case, they make the boss look unreasonable and unprofessional, and as long as the person being insulted acts with dignity and integrity, he will look better (especially in the long run) by not attacking.
It's like if a kid attacks you -- if you deck him, you look terrible. If you maintain your dignity and do as little as possible to fend him off, you look much better. That's because we all know the kid is at a disadvantage, and here it seems quite obvious the boss is like a kid -- at least emotionally.
Normally I would agree with you, but this boss seems unstable, and with such a person, as I said (and it bears repeating), something that, to you and I, seems not only reasonable but also appropriate could be perceived as an attack by him -- especially if it comes anywhere near threatening his twisted perception of reality.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
I see where you're coming from....I was making the assumption that this manager, while superfically unreasonable, is fundamentally capable of rational thought, while you're reminding us that that assumption may not be valid.
This is indeed a troubling scenario...in most situations, the best course would be to smile and nod, and walk on eggshells around him. However, in this situation, this potentially unbalanced person has the ability to cause serious damage to the writer's professional reputation and career. Another poster on this topic made the statement that the only thing a technical profesional really possesses is their reputation...a point with which I agree wholeheartedly.
To borrow your analogy of a kid attacking you, as long as he is unarmed, you may be able to safely ignore him, but if he starts attacking with a club, knife, or gun (in short, if his attacks now have the potential to cause real damage), you are within your rights to protect your own well-being.
Clearly, if the manager is indeed unbalanced, the writer has a very fine line to walk for the next couple weeks. in this situation, the only constructive advice I can offer is to make every attempt to appear as the rational and reasonable party...while still taking the necessary steps to defend one's professional reputation.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's about it. Thanks -- you summarized it MUCH better than I did.
It's also important to remember a person like this may show rational thought in many areas, but still be emotionally unbalanced in others.
Yes, I agree about a reputation being important, and this boss can hurt it, but from what we have, it seems most people around him are aware that the boss has issues. I would also think that people who worked with him for a while would easily know the score. Yes, the manager does have a weapon, but if everyone is aware he is toons (no, that was never a term we used technically!), it is less effective.
FWIW, in the job I mentioned, the firm had been around for over 20 years. At one time it had a good reputation, but over the past 10 years they had earned a reputation in their area (which was a poor area of houses as old as pre-civil war and was undergoing gentrification) as being cheap, cheating the tenent, and even abusing their authority. My boss, and his boss (the owner) were largely responsible for that. There were only the three of us in the company, and about 6 months after I started, the owner died. About 5 months later, with my boss running the company and the executrice (sp?) of the will still not having sold the company, I found out I would not get a paycheck that week -- legal problems, the estate being in debt, etc. While they admitted owning me, they did not have the money to pay. I asked how much they were selling the company for, and got on the phone. I seriously considered talking to my family, getting the backing, buying the company, and firing my boss.
This is appropos because my boss was largely responsible for the bad reputation of the company and many people in the area had dealt with him and specifically cursed him in public (and quite often!). I made a lot of calls and found out that in the 11 months I had been there, I had developed quite a reputation. I never bragged or badmouthed my company or boss, but the whole area basically had the attitude of, "Don't deal with the company, but if you have to, deal with him -- he'll treat you as fair as you can, unless his boss won't let him."
In less than a year, while I was working for a company with a crappy reputation, everyone in the area basically knew I would stick to my word and they could trust me, while nobody trusted my boss (who, at almost 50, was known to run out of the front office and literally hide in a closet when certain tenents or property owners came in to handle business).
So, while I'm bias, and speaking of a unique situation, would I would think most people will know the score and separate the boss's anger from the employee's responsibility. They've already had a lot of time to see what's going on. And, if he maintains his dignity, often it is possible to make sure you act properly as the other person gets more and more irrational, then, without saying anything negative, you've held up, and the other person has ruined their rep by getting angry because he wouldn't play their game.
Notice (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to say that you should sully yourself and your reputation with backdoor hacks and retribution, but it's a dumb manager that leaves you in a position to do so then provides incentive to do so by acting like a jerk. Your boss needs to be hit with a clue stick... there aren't too many ppl that can fuck up a business like an IT guy with inside knowledge and a chip on his shoulder.
Re:Notice (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Notice (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My two cents... (Score:4, Insightful)
The man you describe is very insecure. He probably wakes up every morning feeling he isn't nearly as good as he wishes he were. He's probably perpetually scared that today is the day everyone will find out how scared he is and that he isn't what he wants everyone to believe is. Just think -- there's no need to wish for revenge on such a person. For him, waking up every morning and facing a full day of living with himself is a hell worse than any revenge I could ever wish on anyone.
OT: fingers (Score:5, Funny)
Try as I might, I can get at most three fingers pointing back at me. Am I doing it wrong?
Re:OT: fingers (Score:4, Funny)
Sheesh. Just because I used to teach Algebra, people seem to think I can count.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
This way, no matter what he says, people get to hear from you your reasons and get to hear from you the positive experiences you're taking away from the position. This will foster "warm fuzzy feelings" among many who might only ever hear "his side".
Let me stress, don't be negative in that letter/email at all. It is imperative that you not be negative at all.
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
You bring up an important point I haven't seen others mention -- not burning bridges isn't just about you and your boss, it's about everyone else involved, any of whom might be in a position to help or hurt you down the road.
And Now, my two cents... (Score:3, Funny)
Buy him some grapes
Can't withhold pay (Score:5, Informative)
Hopefully, you only gave him two weeks. I found out the hard way, never give more than two weeks; you might think you're doing the boss a favor, but it just makes things harder on yourself to be known as the "short timer" for a month (or more).
You should definitely try to finish out your two weeks. Chances are, your boss will cool down sometime after you leave, and you'll want him to be a good reference when you embark on future job searches. At the very least, you don't want him to be a negative reference.
Your boss may be a total ass, but you should try to honor your word. Your most valuable asset in the business world is your reputation.
Re:Can't withhold pay (Score:5, Interesting)
Old fart story to follow --
I was working for a -very- small company when I got hired by Apple in '86. I gave them 2 weeks notice and told them that I wanted to make sure that we had a good transition. The next morning I got a phone call from the boss and was told not to come in that day and, "oh, by the way; your last paycheck has been cancelled". Wow, I was a young father and the loss of even a single paycheck was deeply painful to my family.
I'll never forget the advice that the Apple recruiter (John Boring) gave me when I related the story to him; "Yes, you -can- take this to the labor board and you -will- win... however, you can spend your career looking forward or looking backward... it's up to you where to concentrate." I took his advice, forgot about the offense and the past and had a -GREAT- career at Apple and afterwards. I'd advise you to do the same.
Re:Can't withhold pay (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can't withhold pay (Score:3, Insightful)
So, if I break into someone's house and steal $500 from his dresser drawer, what is my punishment? Let's compare, shall we?
Re:What references? (Score:4, Informative)
Ahh, but if you don't work those last two weeks they can easily document that walked off the job. They can then give you a bad reference, and they will win in court if you try to sue. (at least in my area two weeks is considered normal notice) HR would prefer not, but in this case you leave them with little choice, since they do not have opportunity to do any transitioning.
In fact for most companies this is about the only way to get fired without being turned over to the police. If they want you gone they will give you the opportunity to "resign for personal reasons", at which point they don't give a bad reference (which means they give the dates you work and that you left on good terms, like any other employee) Because you resign (and if you are smart you will because if they have to fire you they will give a bad reference) you have less legal power against them. Of course if you they catch you doing something illegal they will fire you and then turn you over to the police.
Mind many HR departments will send a guard to escort you to the door when you give your two weeks. However they still pay your for those two weeks, they just call it work from home.
However you can get co-worker references. HR only controls what your boss can say. If bob worked with you and things you are a great guy, he can say that. If you resign all bob knows is one day you are gone. It is really easy to make bob think (without telling a lie) that your leaving was a hushed thing that you could not tell them about until after you were gone. He will then be a good reference. If you are fired he will find out, and hesitate to give a good reference figuring there is something he didn't know.
In short: company references mean little (though you should check them anyway because a few people will lie about jobs they never had). However personal references are still checked.
Re:What references? (Score:4, Informative)
That being said, I'm sure that virtually all small business owners are ignorant of the ruling. So, it would be better in the article submitter's case to be without fault and not give his soon-to-be former employer any reason to badmouth him.
Hapenny (Score:5, Insightful)
It's pretty obvious what's going on here: the boss is out of his depth, his own job is in jeopardy, maybe his personal life is also in the toilet, and he's blaming everyone but himself for his woes. Under those circumstances, confrontation of any kind is unlikely to help things, and could easily make things worse. What do I mean by "worse"? Maybe just a few harsh words, but this is a classic formula for workplace violence. One should step carefully.
The threat to withhold the final paycheck is, of course, illegal. The way to deal with this is to politely remind the boss of that fact. If that produces more outbursts, then you should take it to the HR department, and maybe your boss's boss, both of whom will be quite concerned at the legal exposure such a threat creates. Or, if the boss is also the proprietor, you should talk to the state employment commission.
And you should probably depart as soon as your statutory two weeks is up. There are many good reasons to remain longer: you want to act professionally, you don't want to leave your co-workers in the lurch, etc. But they just don't apply when you're being abused and threatened in this way.
Re:Get a Firearm (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a 2nd Amendment guy. I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, and I believe that the citizenry should be armed to the teeth and dangerous.
But it's just plain stupid to bring one to work under these circumstances. It says "disgruntled employee about to go postal", and would give the nutty boss an excuse to have you arrested. You don't want that rep at all.
I'd bring a lawyer instead, or at least have a lawyer make a phone call. Asking you to provide a replacement before you receive a final paycheck is defrauding you of your pay.
Re:Get a Firearm (Score:4, Insightful)
Requiring the finding of a replacement, unless it's written into his contract, does seem fraudulent. A lawyer and/or small-claims court (unless the paycheck is too big) are certainly the way to go.
Packing heat will just make things far, *far* worse.
Re:Get a Firearm (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a great idea...oh wait...no it's not....it's the opposite of great....what's that word...oh yeah. TERRIBLE. Yeah, that's it.
Seriously, though, you really need to establish yourself firmly as the sane, sensible party here. It's unfortunate, but you really do have to go out of your way to insure that you are never percieved as irrational or unreasonable.
I do not think it means what you think it means (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Informative)
In the UK, generally very good. They are composed of three people, whose combined experience is usually extensive and includes legal proceedings, working on behalf of employers and working on behalf of employees.
Tribunals are generally held to be no-nonsense, firm but fair deals. If you try to get damages because you did something stupid and got yourself fired, they'll usually throw
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Informative)
Since the boss is emotionally unstable (I mentioned that earlier in this thread), it might be unwise to mention anything about the check ahead of time. Go by to pick it up at the regular time, as you always would, as if nothing were wrong. If it's not there, ask him about it. If he tries holding it back, then it is time to take action. You're best off being understated. Just shrug and say, "Okay, I'll take it up with the Labor Board, under section xxx" (if you can cite a section, that might help).
If there is an HR department, go there first, if not, or after HR, then go to the state (or other appropriate authority) and file a complaint. Make sure you have a copy of the letter or form. It might help to show it to the boss, and that may be all you need, but if he is volitile, just stay away and wait until the authorities handle it.
If he "officially" tells you ahead of time he's withholding it (instead of just threatening), ask him why and see if you can get it in writing. In either case, document it clearly, write up a letter to complain to either HR or the labor board, and, on the last day, bring it up before you leave. Again, be understated, but know that you WILL get the check, it's just a question of when and whether he gives it to you or has to deal with HR or the authorities. Don't be cocky, just sure. If necessary, tell him what you've been told by HR or the labor board. Don't be a know it all, but say just enough to let him know you have resources.
Now, on the other hand, if at any time in this process he starts to act unstable, GET OUT. Your goal should be to get the check, not to confront him, piss him off, or prove to him you're right. If you can keep your ego out of this, you'll do great. If you let your ego lead you, you'll end up in a blow out with him, and it'll make it even harder to get the check.
Re:My two cents... (Score:3, Insightful)
The employee does.
1) The boss can hold back the check until he's legally forced to pay, which could take weeks or months.
2) This boss, from what we've seen, shows many signs of being unstable. Violence is even a possibility.
3) The manager can swear out a warrant for any number of reasons. They may be false, but by the time it's straightened out, it might be after a night or two in jail. (And you can't always sue for false arrest.)
4) We dont' know how big a compan
Regarding working through notice (Score:3, Informative)
So, if you don't want to work through your notice because the employer reacts badly, you can always tell the new employer that the old one decided that having anyone around after they gave notice is a risk, and so you're available ear
Hello Mcfly, Suck it up! (Score:5, Insightful)
Easy. You don't have any losses. You have a job waiting for you.
Stick with it until you said you would. ALWAYS keep to your word especially when leaving an employer. If they want you gone now, they will walk you out of the building.
It is your bosses problem, not yours. This sounds like a me vs you thing. If it is so bad, talk to your HR. The odds are that if everybody knows your boss is nuts, they do to. If they don't know, they want to know.
Do you believe that you are responsible for finding your replacement? I don't understand how they could keep your paycheck if YOU don't find a replacement.
If your boss thinks that he cannot replace you, put some bait in front of him. Ask if they can match an offer or do something to change your work environment. Even if you have no interest in staying, it buys time and allows you to leave with a smile on your face when YOU say no.
Back to the original though. DO NOT QUIT EARLY! You gave your word and it is a small world. It would suck to have this bite you in the ass. In a few weeks it will be over and you will laugh at it.
Oh yea...
You insensitive clod! You have a JOB! You have an OFFER and a JOB! You have a 'soon to be X Boss' that you can &uck with? Quit bitching!
Get over it! Screw with the Boss and have fun. You are leaving, he has no control over you. You have an offer, you don't need his reference. Get prepared for your new career and forget the past.
I am curious what the "different industry" is. Did you take up Hindu?
Re:Hello Mcfly, Suck it up! (Score:3, Insightful)
That is a slippery slope. In fact there are many articles and stories floating around jobs sites/newspapers about trying the counter offer route. Here is the short version as I understand it:
Asking for a raise and throwing down a competing offer are two different things all together. If you like where you are but think you deserve more money, you
Advice (Score:5, Informative)
Otherwise, just be polite, but firm. If he burns bridges, it's his choice. You did your best.
Re:Advice (Score:3, Informative)
(Laugh in a good natured way and then say) "That's fine, I would love to own this company in settlement."
It's a rediculous statement, but one that indicates that you do know your rights and won't fold. But even more importantly, it lets him know that his threat failed to deliver the one item that it was really intended to delever: It failed to inspire fear.
Been there before, and I know it sucks. But don't say anyt
Re:Withholding Vacation is Not Illegal (Score:5, Informative)
Many states require the company to pay for accrued vacation time. If so, it is indeed illegal.
easy (Score:3, Funny)
Then I'd give him another good kick in the ribs to grow on.
Solicitor's advice , not slashdot's! (Score:5, Insightful)
You need the advice of a solictor. Especially if he is withholding pay, and damaging your reputation.
Re:Solicitor's advice , not slashdot's! (Score:3, Funny)
Is Solicitor what you UK chaps call a Lawyer? If so, I just found a whole new use for my No Soliciting sign! [iswiki.com]
We all understand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most sane and mature employers understand that as long as you give them notice of the termination of employment that the burden of employee replacement is on the employer, not you. The fact that your current employer is doing this proves how immature he is. Withholding the last paycheck may be something stipulated in documents you signed at the beginning of employment so you may want to look those over.
I have had previous employers that I have had issues with personally, but tried my best not to burn the bridge myself. If they had burned the bridge, I would definitely talk to their boss about this. If they didn't have a boss above them then I would gladly have had choice words for them. It's all a judgement call, but if you need this on your resume, definitely don't burn the bridge yourself.
Re:I think he needs it on the resume... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I think he needs it on the resume... (Score:3, Interesting)
You are going to have to cite a statue for that one. I'm incredibly dubious of the claim that I'd be in violation of the law to say more then "this person worked here". I'm unaware of any legal princepal of "Employee-Employer Privacy". Heard of it in the case of laywers and doctors, but never in the case of my boss. I'm fairly confident they can say if you were terminated with cause or not (that's g
Get a lawyer (Score:3)
Re:Get a lawyer (Score:3)
I'd use the lawyer only after he held up my check. Make the assumption he won't do something so stupid now, keep docs, and *if* he does something so dumb then pull out the hired guns.
Don't publically call your boss 'nuts' (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't publically call your boss 'nuts' (Score:5, Funny)
Whoops.
Re:Don't publically call your boss 'nuts' (Score:3, Insightful)
He may be in violation of the law (Score:5, Insightful)
1) offer to go quietly immediately, and offer to stay for a reasonable period of time - 2 weeks after your initial notice is reasonable - and let him make the choice.
2) if he lets you go today, don't expect to get paid for time not worked.
If he actually withholds your final paycheck, take it up with human resources, his supervisor, or if necessary, someone higher up. What he is doing is most likely illegal. If necessary, remind him of his legal obligations and that the next step will be the court system, civil AND if applicable, criminal court. Don't threaten legal action unless all else fails, that will burn all bridges.
Difficult to leave on perfect terms, always (Score:3, Insightful)
It's worse if you're leaving a business on shakey ground - because it's the ultimate vote of non-confidence. I think it's worse in tech, because a lot of the time, the people ARE the company.
Don't worry about what your boss thinks. Do what you said you would, always, but at the end of the day the decision has already been made. Concentrate on making a good impression with your new employers.
Easy Answer (Score:5, Insightful)
Had a couple bosses (especially, for some reason, small development and start-up companies) that lost it.
The easy answer is: do the right thing. You did the right thing by giving notice, you did the right thing by hanging in there. Go in to work each day and be the best you can. Help hand off the codebase. Give the best training you can to the others.
The more you do the right thing and your boss acts like an idiot, the better you are doing. Do the right thing and let the rest slide.
In both of my cases, the old boss felt sorry for acting the way he did. (But this took several months) People get upset when they don't know what to do. Sometimes they act very poorly. My advice is to be a bigger person than that.
DEE-fense, DEE-fense! (Score:3, Informative)
You can turn a conversation into a paper trail by writing a letter along the lines "This is to summarize our conversation of $DATE. I am dismayed that you would think $ACCUSATION, which as I explained is of course incorrect. If I have misunderstood your position please let me know".
It might be worth the money to consult with an employment-law attorney and ask "here's what I'm doing, I'm dealing with irrational people, what precautions do you suggest?".
WorkplaceFairness.org (Score:5, Informative)
WorkplaceFairness [workplacefairness.org] has a few tips along these lines.
Sounds as if you've given sufficient notice. Unless you're violating some employment covenant, your employer has no legal basis by which to hold your final check and is probably attempting to intimidate you in an unlawful way.
Be professional, write or say nothing negative, ask for any employer complaint in writing, work out your notice with as much enthusiasm as you can muster, and seek any remedy after the fact.
This is why we have unions, folks. Or why we *had* unions. The workplace does NOT regulate itself.
Good luck, and enjoy your new job.
Be responsible for yourself... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're being honest with yourself and the /. community as a whole, and if you didn't do anything to deserve the flamewar he is waging against you, then I have this to say about your soon-to-be-former boss: He's an idiot. My advice: Simply be respectful. Don't say anything bad about the boss or the job. If anyone asks (even in some sort of exit interview), tell them it was a good job and everything was fine, but you're leaving to make the next step in your career plans. Period. Believe me, in the future, when the topic comes up, people will know who was the wacky one and who was wise.
At our company, we don't have the best possible wages and benefits. What we have is good, but there are certainly other companies out there that offer something better. Every so often, employees find a "better" job and leave. I've heard what the "big boss" here says when someone gives him notice. He usually bids them farewell, invites them to come back and visit sometime, and generally gives them some advice. For example, if an employee is known around here for something detrimental, the boss will usually remind him (not to rub it in, but rather to help him out) to pay particular attention to that aspect of his work, so he will start the new job on a fresh page.
In 20 years, we only had one incident. A secretary, who was a complete wacko, got fired. She took customer lists and God only knows what other information with her, and she actually called all the customers and trashed us. She made threats, she did all kinds of stuff... Our boss, being the wise and learned man that he is, told us all not to worry about it. The ending of the story: Customers called and asked what was going on. We explained that we had fired this secretary. They all said things to the effect that, "You're better off without her." People are not stupid, and they understand who's on the up and up...
Use Google! (Score:5, Funny)
Act in a professional manner (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep records of anything they accuse you of and what you are doing your last few weeks.
If, after you leave they try to withhold your last paycheck just file a complaint with your state deptartment of employment. Every state I am familiar with has strict laws about requiring that you get paid for time worked. The state I work in has a law stating that the only reason an employer can withhold wages is if there is a court order in place.
Later, if you feel that your former employer is trying to do something to damage your reputation, talk to a lawyer. This sort of slander is viewed very dimly in the courts.
Do check your state law (Score:3, Informative)
Been there (almost) (Score:3, Interesting)
My employer had withheld 4 weeks of pay, even though I was there AND WORKING for the entire month(!) of notice I gave (a month sounds crazy, never signing a contract like that again). They tried to claim they couldn't afford to pay me. i knew that was crap, although they had a history of not paying debtors, they did have assests they could sell, to people who were actually willing to buy them.
Fortunately, in my case, using the state-based resolution system means I didn't have to pay anyone anything to get my money. After my ex-employer stuffed them around for 6 months, they finally drove over, had a chat, quietly offered to write them up for fines, and I got the cheque in the mail.
It was a nice christmas present when it came.
Now, all this said, particularly in the initial article poster's situation, it won't hurt him to stick it out. That gives him a much stronger position if he *DOES* get shafted.
Also, i'd be inclined to not worry about doing work outside the job description during that time. They can't hold you to that, particularly if you've got other duties to attend to that you DO have to do.
That said, DO NOT under any circumstances, badmouth your previous employer in any way at any time. That's just asking for trouble, and can come around and bite you in the butt really quick.
ashridah
You need an attorney (Score:5, Informative)
2. Withholding or threatening to withhold pay or benefits as you describe is very, very, very illegal, and so are...
3. Libel and slander (printed and spoken, respectively).
All based on my limited understanding of US law, but if you are not in the US there are still likely protections against what you have described.
Get. Attorney. Now.
Jim
*Ahem* - you're on tape (Score:4, Funny)
Set the tape player on your desk out in the open and just leave it there. Next time someone comes in and says something totally nasty (ie, not paying the last paycheck, or bad-mouthing you, or whatever) just point to the recorder and say "that's on." It doesn't have to be on, but if you manage to time it right even better.
Amazing piece of attitude adjustment, someone knowing that whatever they say or do is on tape.
I once walked into the county court records office once and as the worker-bee walked up (I think I interrupted her game of Solitare on her computer, she didn't look happy) I popped a flash camera up and snapped off a picture. When she asked what that was all about, I explained that I was going to send her picture to the Mayor describing how helpful she had been. And she was very helpful, go figure.
The myth of the 2-week notice (Score:3, Informative)
1. Your employer is *not* entitled to advance notice of your departure (unless this is spelled out in a contract).
2. You are *not* entitled to advance notice of your firing (unless this would mean the employer is in violation of a labor law).
That's it, just two exceptions. If your contract does not specify a notice period, and a penalty for not doing so, you are clean. If your state laws don't force them to, your employers can wait until the very last second to tell you that you are fired or laid off.
The 2-week notice is a common courtesy, less than two weeks is too drastic and will hint at a less than friendly departure. More than two weeks will make the whole thing akward.
It is not your responsibility to find your replacement before you leave. The only thing you really owe them is a resignation letter so they can CYA. Give them thanks for the X years of great employment and for the camaraderie or whatever.
We all know it is all a lie, but you are trying to leave in good terms and that letter will stick around for a while. Next time somebody calls HR to verify your employment, you'll get lucky and the person that answers the call won't know you. She'll pull your file and read the letter and won't hesitate to tell them that sure, you worked X years there but moved on because of whatever. If there is no letter she'll ask around and eventually she'll make it to your boss, who may or not be bitter about it. You fill the blanks.
Can't withhold last paycheck (Score:3, Interesting)
Unless you signed an employment agreement that requires you to find your replacement (which you probably didn't and which wouldn't stand up in court anyway) they don't have a leg to stand on.
Stick it out. (Score:4, Interesting)
I got forced to resign under threats of BS lawsuits (which I couldn't afford to fight) by a guy who was pushing me out specifically because I told him, when asked, that I believed our company problems stemmed from bad marketing tactics.
Since he was in charge, and since his son was head of marketing, I pretty much figured what the outcome was going to be, even saying it as politely as I could. But he went seriously overboard, and really screwed me, when it wouldn't have cost him anything to act like a professional instead of a child.
Even so, I told him I'd enjoyed working for his company, dealt professionally with the last few of my responsibilities and cut my losses. I did this to a degree that he's been trying to hire me freelance for the last two years, even after that company went Chapter 13.
I say "trying" because I'm professional, not stupid.
This boss just screwed himself (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, the startup did what startups tend to do, and once the paycheques stopped I phoned up my former employer. It turned out he had a great pile of pending projects which needed an experienced DSP engineer, and here comes this ghost from the past who also happens to be familiar with the code base. It took us somewhat less than a minute to reach an agreement.
If he had freaked out and pulled the above crap, I would've never called him up again even if I were so poor I had to eat cat food, but because the guy was a consummate professional we're both ahead of the game.
Francois.
Advice (Score:5, Insightful)
Do the time from your notice there. You aren't obligated to find a replacement, but tell your boss that you're happy to spend your remaining time looking for one and training one up if you find one. Be polite, even though the prick doesn't deserve it. Do not let yourself be intimidated. Let him dig his grave in front of the other employees. Politely disagree or ask for clarification when you are attacked or discredited. Do not work one extra minute beyond what notice you've given, do not work one extra minute overtime. You owe your boss nothing due to those threats. But make sure that any potential future employer can look back and see that you delivered 100% on what you owed, and that the employer was the one who fell short. You need to be 100% in the right because your employer will trash you when a future employer calls up to confirm your employment there. You need to show you did nothing wrong.
Expect nothing in return. You probably won't get the pay. Move to your next job and concentrate on that. If your pay doesn't show, consult a lawyer, and write a polite but firm letter stating exactly what you are owed, with a due date, sent by registered mail. Take your time, discuss things in writing only. If he calls by phone (likely) and offers anything, ask for confirmation in writing (unless it is money, in which case ask when it will arrive). Don't let yourself be intimidated. If they won't play ball, after you're settled and have a steady income, then weigh up legal action. Do not fight this without a stable income behind you, it will be one of the most miserable experiences in your life. I've been there. Get a position of strength whilst attempting to be "reasonable", and if you feel it important to crush the prick afterwards, do so. Don't go light on them because they "might" give you a bad reference. Think about what they are going to do if you let them off. If they'll trash you anyway, you've got nothing to lose, assuming you can show you've been reasonable through the whole process.
I could go on, but you've probably got the gist.
Incorrect in more ways than one (Score:5, Informative)
It would cost you any attorney fees either.
Living well is the best revenge (Score:5, Interesting)
His boss at first was OK, then one day suddenly turned on him in the kind manner you describe, trying to humiliate him and doing everything short if cutting the buttons off of his blazer. The young guy was very cool about it, a total class act, but everyone else around was appalled. I asked the young guy about it later, and he shrugged, and said it didn't bother him too much because he was going places in this field, and the boss wasn't doing himself any favors in his future employment prospects.
Of course, this kid was thinking in terms of years, but it turned out his prediction came true a lot faster. Some of the people who were remaining behind began quietly looking into the boss's Phd, and discovered it was fraudulent, and spread the information around where it would do the most damage.
The lesson is that sometimes you really do create a kind of karmic force that affect your destiny. Take no action to harm your boss or your current company in any way; it's pointless since they can' harm you in this situation -- only you can harm yourself. Act with dignity and professionalism and everybody who can see this situation will remember all the more clearly for the contrast with your boss's actions.
Subject (Score:3, Insightful)
[Trollmode="off"]
It depends on how you want future employers to see you. Do you want to be known as the guy who stuck with a tough situation and honored his obligations, or the guy who "cut his losses" (as other people are suggesting) and ran?
Re:Try finding a replacement (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Try finding a replacement (Score:4, Insightful)
Um...no. Respectfully, I must disagree.
It is not the writer's responsibility to find a replacement. That resposibility lies squarely with the manager.
If the manager still doesn't like it, tough. He's contractually obligated to pay that final paycheck.
no for another reason (Score:3, Interesting)
Find a Replacement? No, No, NO! (Score:3, Insightful)
Second, and more importantly, there are a ton of issues that go into a hiring decision, many of which don't have a thing to do with the specifics of a job. An applicant may have skills, but may not have the right temperament, outlook, or might not be a good fit for the company's culture. (Or a zillion other reasons...)
I've hired, and I've (thankfully rarely) fired. Bringing on the wrong person isn't good for anyone, and from a company's perspective, is tremendously expen
Re:Withholding pay (Score:5, Interesting)
In most cases, merely threatening to call the labor board will scare an employer into complying with the law. If it doesn't, then proceed with the actual call to the labor board, and for good measure call an employment attorney as well. And don't whine that you can't afford one -- you can always find one who will consult with you for FREE. Just call the local bar association for a referral. (And no, a free consultation does not mean the lawyer is shady/crappy; it's a standard part of their services.)
It's a LOT harder for employers to screw you over when you know your rights AND take steps to see that they are enforced.
Re:Always? (Score:3, Insightful)
NO! work it out or get the police (Score:3, Interesting)
Any situation where you cannot work until your last day and they have not told you to stay home with pay is a situation where you need police protection.
Even if your next job is lined up, work out your last days. (Or work out a deal to leave early, often they will let you leave earlier than your required time, but be willing to work it out) You only think you have the next job lined up perfect, there are too many things you don't know.
I have had jobs that seemed great for 3 months and then the fund