Body Modifications Still Hinder IT Professionals? 1461
thedeletekey writes "The Detroit News recently ran an article about body modifications in the workplace. This got me thinking; do body modifications such as tattoos and piercings still hinder IT professionals in the workplace? Or is this a thing of the past, as these types of personal changes have become more common in recent years. In my experience, I've found both stringent dress codes requiring business casual attire, and no visible body modifications, to no dress code at all. What has the rest of the IT world found to be common?"
No biggie (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
Its all common sense. I don't flaunt either, and know when it is appropriate to remove the CBR's or wear long sleeves. I think its all relative.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
Was the interview one of those times?
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Interesting)
I had to go to the piercer to get new balls and have her put them back in.
Although I agree. I have dreads and both ears pierced, and I got three jobs offered to me for this summer. So I don't think it's really much of an issue.
"Decent human being" (Score:5, Insightful)
I've known people who work for MS who were pierced from head to toe and I've always thought that to be unprofessional, distracting and quite honestly a bit repulsive. Clean yourself up and show up to work looking like a decent human being people.
In some cultures of human beings, it's considered indecent if one is not pierced.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:3, Interesting)
I brought it up because "decent human being" is so imprecise. Were it "decent Western(tm) human being" I wouldn't have female-dogged.
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"Decent human being" (Score:4, Insightful)
When a person takes steps to deliberately violate local custom and norms you have to wonder if he'll chose to treat the rules and customs of the workplace with the same disdain.
Also when hiring persons who will be 'the face' of the company (customer relations of any sort, including the checkout guy and receptionist and actor in the comercial, etc.) you wan't people to conform to the target audience's (the customer's) view of acceptable within reasonable boundries.
Mycroft
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
"I find it pleasant to work in a homogeneous environment where everyone looks the same." Did you skip that all those classes in elemtenary school where they teach tolerance, what prejudice is, that its bad, and about diversity. Perhaps you'd be happier in a slave labor camp in some foreign country where everyone looks the same, or is forced to lest they be persecuted, segragated or killed for doing so.
The glory of America is that A. we all dont have to think like you, and B. that we dont all think like you. People fought and died for these rights. Whether or not you or I have any opinion as to their appearance is irrelevant. You're entitled to your opinion that you dont like the appearence, but that's all that you are entitled to. While I for one don't find the appearence to be preferential for myself, they have every right to it, and i'll defend that right to the end. Becuase you never know when it will be my opinion or preference or whatnot that some pompous douche bag such as yourself finds "undesireable" and then tries to outlaw it. The only thing unprofessional is thinking that you somehow know better than everyone else what is right.. personnally i find your attitude to be unprofessional, distracting and repulsive. clean yourself up and act like a decent american... notice how this was posted by an anonymous coward too?
Re:No biggie (Score:4, Insightful)
And why is it that you jump directly to the 'slave labor camp' analogy?
It's like talking to someone who compares everything to the Nazis. It's annoying, and it marginalizes what actually happened.
"I think we should all wear uniforms.."
"Yeah, and the Nazis thought that too.."
"We should line this up straight."
"What are you, some kind of Nazi?"
As if lining stuff up straight, and wearing uniforms somehow puts a person in the same vein as the Nazis.
The Nazis weren't bad because they wore uniforms, or because they tried to achieve order.
They were bad because they tortured and killed millions of people. They attacked their neighboring countries, they treated people worse than animals.
But enjoying order does not mean that a person should be compared to the Nazis.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Insightful)
Discrimination is legal! (Score:4, Insightful)
The only discrimination that is illegal is the type of discrimination that has been held illegal -- usually based on a protected attribute. It is legal to discriminate on someone with green hair, or drives a F.O.R.D. or who wore Calvin Klein jeans on a Tuesday.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Informative)
I think you illustrate my point pretty well.
Levitical law prohibits tattoos and 'cutting your body for the dead' right where it prohibits planting two kinds of seed in a field and cutting off the edges of your beard.
Moving onward to actual Christianity, the subject of my post, body piercing and tattooing is not forbidden by the RC, the C of E, the Missouri Synod, the Calvinists, the Episcopalians, nor have I ever personally met a Christian who gives a damn (poor choice of words there perhaps).
Somewhere there are a few slightly wacky sects like the 7th Day Adventists who have a lot of weird Leviticus-inspired rules as well as regular Christian ones, and they might forbid piercing. You may wish to focus on them if that reinforces the opinions you already hold about Christianity, but they're not exactly central to the debate.
They are dwarfed, in fact, by the vast mass of atheist/agnostics like yourself who have strongly-held yet blurry beliefs about Christianity formed from a vague mishmash of web pages and angst.
Now, I'm glad you realize that 'most Christians don't bother with the fiddly bits' -- you've gotten further than the original poster. The next step would be to go and read some stuff about what Christians actually do believe -- both the Catholics and the mainstream Protestants (Lutheran etc) will have lots of fun facts for you about the supercession of the Levitical law.
I really don't want to deliver a generic 'learn something about it before talking!' smackdown here, but... well, let's just leave it hanging in the air
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Funny)
Like anonymously flaming complete strangers on Slashdot?
Still conforming, but thinking they're oh-so cutting edge.
Yup, that's them.
Re:No biggie (Score:4, Funny)
Oh wait, it doesn't. Never mind.
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Interesting)
My kid went through this when she was about 13, I talked to her about it and she told me it was how she and her friends expressed their individuality.
I asked her if they were sitting around one day and someone said "Hey, let's all be different...together". She thought about that for about two weeks and figured out that she was better off deciding for herself how to be an individual.
BTW, before anyone decides they know who I am, I've got tattoos that were old enough to drink in the last century (and I prolly got 60 hrs in on
Ah, I miss the '70's. Harley's were cheap, weed was free and only dirtbags had tattoos...and you could trust them with your money or your guns or anything else, except your old lady.
Body mods and peer pressure (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What do you do for a living? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No biggie (Score:5, Funny)
One day, I decide to try a new headset for my phone. Complicated over the ear rig, sounds great, light weight, mic sits nicely, whole thing holds on well. But the stupid cable comes out of the bottom and rubs my earring. The tickling was going to drive me insane, so I took out my earring and set it on my desk.
When I came back from lunch, my earring is missing. I ask my coworker of two and a half years
"Alice, have you seen my earring?".
"Your what?"
"Earring. Had it on my desk, it keeps catching on the new phone earpiece so I took it out."
"When did your ears pierced?"
"Ear. Just one. *counting on my fingers* Nine years ago?"
*Strange look. She thinks I'm kidding her*
"You must not wear it to work too often, I've never seen you wear one."
"I've worn it every day. I don't think I've taken it out in a year or two."
*Another strange look.*
"Have a look at the picture on your desk from last years Christmas party."
"Well I'll be da.. You're right. No, I haven't seen it."
So I went over to another coworker's desk. He's been there longer than I have, and has had a cube across from me for four years.
"Bill, you see my earring? I left it on my desk."
"Yours? That was yours?"
"Yeah. Where was it?"
"Oh, I moved it, put it in lost and found at the reception desk. When did you get your ears pierced?"
"Ear...."
*Alice chimes in to be a smart-ass*
"Just his left one. He's had it forever. Didn't you notice?"
"No. Isn't there some stupid policy against that anyway?"
"Dunno. Never asked. Wore it to the interview, don't think I've had it out but once or twice for cleaning since."
*strange look*
*Alice walks over with the picture from her desk*
So I walk up to reception, to see about my earring.
"Hey Barb, grab me my earring out of the lost and found box."
"Get your ears pierced over the weekend? You're not supposed to take them out so soon, and don't let Bob catch you. "...
People just don't notice.
Body Mod's (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Body Mod's (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Body Mod's (Score:5, Funny)
tattoos (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:tattoos (Score:5, Informative)
The military does require that its members be capable of presenting a professional apperance. Tats, while the traditional mark of someone about to kick your butt, are not allowed on skin that is visible while wearing a long-sleeved dress uniform. Peircings are limited to women (1 pair, in the ears. Conservative single stud or single pearl. No hoops or danglies), or off duty and far off post.
--Cam
it's unprofessional (Score:3, Insightful)
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Just my
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Well said! (Score:5, Insightful)
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Well said!
One thing I've noticed -- and it's not just that I'm getting older -- is that young adults are a lot less mature than 20 years ago. In many ways they're more sophisticated, have more general knowledge, and may even be smarter, but what they are not is "adult." College age people are much more like teenagers now than young adults. Professors I talk to bitch about this a lot, having witnessed the decline.
Where am I going with this? These days adolescence seems to last until about 35, with all the juvenile behavior that goes with it.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry to break it to you pal, but it's just that you're getting older.
Re:Well said! (Score:5, Funny)
That was said by Hesiod, 2700 years ago. And Socrates (may have) said:
So it may be simply that your perspective has changed :-)
Re:Well said! (Score:4, Insightful)
Respect is something that has to be earned and I know 25 year olds that are twice as capable, wise and worthy of respect than some 50 year olds.
The concept made some sense in ancient tribal society where it was a pretty good bet that the old people killed more buffalo so probably were better at it.
How about I respect the 30 year old, hard working, responsible father of two instead of the 40 year old dead-beat-dad guy who doesn't pay his bills and often mises work because he's two hung over.
In general this doesn't exactly apply to children but still it is more a "respect adults" thing than respect the older people more thing.
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
Those professors are getting older, too.
I have three kids in college and compare the "you won't believe this!" stories with the stuff that went on in the 60s and 70s, and I'm putting my bet on the ability to edit memory over time.
For that matter, reading between the lines of the stories that my parents' generation told, the 60s weren't any different from the 40s. Read
Re:Well said! (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right, we should all sit around with pained expressions drinking tea and taking interest in the weather.
Re:Well said! (Score:5, Funny)
You've been to Canada, eh?
Re:Well said! (Score:3, Insightful)
But, seriously, why worry so much about what's "mature" or "immature?" I think it's good to recognize what's responsible or irresponsible as far as how your actions might affect other people, but beyond that it's really about just living your life.
Re:Well said! (Score:5, Insightful)
I really hope that you are joking here. Where I live (and I moved 2000 miles to here just for this job) houses average > $800,000, condos > $500,000 -- not something your average 27 year old can afford. A $1000/month 500 sq. ft. apartment is the best many of us can do. Living in an apt. or a condo is not something to hold against someone.
Re:Well said! (Score:4, Insightful)
Even then, they live like bachelor slobs in Condos, not even a real house.
I'm not trying to defend the sloven, but measuring a person simply on the basis of whether or not they own a house is pretty narrow minded. I know a person that lives in a condo because it's close to their work and they rarely use their car which means they consume less gas. They are not, however, slobs.
I know a thousand people who drive from the burbs each day in their SUVs and even their Hondas and fill up one to two times a week just going to/fro work.
I mean holy shit, spending 4 hours a day playing video games is something a high-schooler does.
What else should they be doing each night? Watching TV? Reading
Unless you spend each night volunteering at a homeless shelter and being a Big Brother, I don't know what hobbies you could be involved in that are any more altruistic. Although from the way it sounds, the homeless and troubled/needy kids might be below you.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:3, Insightful)
A 15 year old can dye their hair, and 'revolt' against their parents. There's not reason for a 24 year old post-college professional to dress like a teenager and expect respect. If they choose to look like a slob in a professional workplace, they are choosing to passed up by management for promotion into more significant (and higher paying)
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, of course, because the baby boomers were always clean-cut professional types who never did anything to rebel against authority.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Any company that I want to work for needs to want me just as badly. Not "some random worker who looks generally professional," not someone who's ph 7 and completely neutral, but me. I kick asses and make waves. If a process is wrong or a product sucks, I'm going to do my damndest to fix it, to talk to the board about it, put together a team to fix it, or even pull it if necessary, because any project that passes over my desk is a reflection on me and I'm not going to hide behind the company name. I take it personally, and my identity will never be second to that of the "team," who I also hope to be made of unique and powerful minds, not just a bunch of ants or yes-men.
If I'm not valuable enough to a company to cause them to keep me regardless of inoffensive (doesn't smell bad, doesn't hurt others) variations in my appearance, chances are that I'll eventually be treated very badly by them anyway, since they'll want me as nothing more than an interchangeable part in the machine and I'm not one. For some companies, the employee who owns his work is a definite asset, and I think you're more likely to get that in people who have a more personalized appearance.
As a part of my job (editor for a major nonfiction publisher), I now review piles and piles of resumes for various kinds of posts. Maybe this only happens in the creative community, but I find that there are at least as many times when a person's "unique" attributes excite me as there are when they turn me off.
Usually it has to do with competence: those that come across as smart and competent while having things like tattoos and piercings I tend to see as even better candidates because of their ability to pull of an unorthodox look while kicking ass. Those that come across as less than ideal skills wise tend to look even more foolish with tattoos and piercings.
So maybe the truth is that green hair or giant earlobe plugs aren't so much indicators as they are exaggerators: they make the worse look worse, and the better look better.
Re:it's unprofessional (Score:5, Insightful)
Differentiate yourself from the other "dotted lines drones" with things that are really important: your character and actions.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Definitely (Score:5, Funny)
I would say... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention turning yourself into two minute spot on That's Incredible by way of using your body as a canvas doesn't exactly scream "able to deal with standards and normality" which are good things to be able to convince interviewers of.
I don't even want to get into genital piercings and tattoos inside of lips.
Accepted in IT? More often adopted by geeks who are hoping to convince someone they're tough. I see very few genuine stereotypical tough body modders with any nerd cred. And a snake fighting an eagle taking up your whole chest is a lot more normal on a biker than let's say a penguin bending over and mooning Bill Gates on a support tech wearing coke bottle glasses, but either one doesn't exactly say "mentally stable and totally dependent" to me.
Grouse about superficial judgements all you like. The world doesn't work according to idealism.
Re:I would say... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not really into facial hardware, but I figure it's your face, you can do what you want with it. On the other hand, keep in mind that I'm the one who's got to look at it. "Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you produce" has been a good concept for a long time. It's probably applicable here too.
dress for success!, or run the risk... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do whatever you will to or for your body, your appearance, but do so at your own risk. Since tattoos are essentially permanent, think about long term goals, ramifications, etc., and what some "permanent" might mean for those goals.
The OP talks about some places being "cool" with tattoos, piercings, etc. That may be true, but that is only a snapshot of today's standards. During the dotcom heyday, with IT "specialists" (most really weren't, n'est-ce pas?) the standard for acceptable appearance was "anything goes". We need you, and we still love you even though your hair is filthy and goes to your waist, and you have tattoos.
But, I worked for a large corporation for 21 years... when I started, the dress code was un-stated, but tacitly enforced... you had to wear dress pants (absolutely no jeans), dress shirt, and at least a sports coat (yes, the tie was optional). Over time, as IT became the place to work and demand for workers was high I saw this dress code disappear and the office soon looked like the stretch pants, khaki cutoff shorts, flip-flops and sandals capital of the United States!
Fast forward to the dotcom crash... new management, and new dress codes, this time actually formally enforced. Yeah, things change.
So, think about it... tattoos go a long way... and regardless of right or wrong, some people react negatively to them, and regardless of whether you like that or not, it's there! (I know of a very close friend who lost out to a med-school... she found out later it was influenced by her tattoos.) (Also, I think this has even passed muster in court of law -- I think Starbucks actually has a dress code and appearance code that was challenged by someone who had a pierced something, and Starbucks prevailed.)
For those who need further prodding and convincing, read John Malloy's Dress for Success [twbookmark.com]. Whether personally you like or don't like people's reactions to how you look at least Malloy will give you some empirical perspective to work with...
Re:dress for success!, or run the risk... (Score:3, Funny)
What? (Score:3, Funny)
Decorate your mind (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey! Helped Me! (Score:5, Funny)
One Friday, I had gotten my tongue pierced, by Monday, my tongue had swelled up so much, I could barely talk.
We were in a meeting that day, I received my assignments for the day with a slight mumble grumble - I guess my boss thought I was overtly stressed or just not happy with what I had to do.
He called me into the conference room and gave me a 150% raise, telling me how good he thought I was to the company and that he was so glad I was with them. I don't think he knew about the tongue ring for weeks...
The next month, I dyed my hair green...
prudes (Score:4, Insightful)
The arguement could be made that clients or managers could have the sort of archaic, narrow-minded ideas which would necessitate very conservative attire at the workplace; however, I don't expect so much of that attitude itself on a site where the majority of the posters are geeks. I thought we were a more open-minded lot than that.
This is the same attitude which used to force men to wear ties and women to wear dresses. It's the same attitude which made people be angry with the "long" bowl-cuts the Beatles sported when they came to the USA.
I'm not saying the attitude doesn't exist, or that you can currently do what you want and get away with it. All I'm saying is that there's no reason smart people like all of us should help it persist.
Re:prudes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:prudes (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with you whole heartedly. Reading over the posts related to this story is a mixture of amusing and sad.
The amount of posters that are trying their hardest to insist (mostly anonymously) that if someone has a piercing or a tattoo they are a freak and a loser.
I have quite a few tattoos, all in heavy blacks. I have piercings (tongue, ear cartlidge, and had some chest ones) as well as scarification and some branding. Admittedly, assides from my ears and my tongue, all of it sits neatly under my shirt and suit at work. But, both my CEO and CTO have seen them and not been concerned one bit. Heck, I have had them for the last 4 jobs and none of my superiors have blinked an eyelid. Only time I was asked explicitly to cover them up was when I was doing some contracting work for a private Catholic funded hospital. And even then, due to doing a cable inspection for them, I had to crawl around under desks and in a data room, so ended up rolling my sleaves up. No one there minded.
Mind you, that said, my body art is for me. I don't do it to impress anyone (hence why 99% of sits under my clothes).
And frankly I think people need to chill and (especially the people on slashdot) realise that by demanding others are freaks for having body art they risk being the same as the people that call them freaks for using linux / bsd / beos etc.
Re:prudes (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm personally pretty damn liberal about appearance; I don't really give a shit what anyone wears. But when I see someone stroll in for a job interview with tattoos and piercings and unnatural hair colors, I dread the possibility of their being hired. Why? Because ninety-nine percent of them will end up spending an inordinate amount of work time talking about their body modification hobby, or bitching about the reactions they get, or otherwise trying to make themselves the center of attention rather than get any work done.
There's a reason companies have dress codes, and aside from "front counter" positions, it has nothing to do with relating to the public. It's basically a test of maturity and self-discipline. In other words, can you put your ego aside long enough to get a good eight hours a day of work done?
Another poster made some adolescent remark about not wanting to be treated like a commodity. Guess what? Unless you are in some really specialized field, you are a commodity. Get over it. But then, that takes us back to the question of whether you can put your ego aside enough to work as part of a team.
Re:prudes (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm transgendered and currently in the process of changing my gender presentation. In my personal experience, people are at best curious and at worst outright violent/hostile.
I don't think this kind of thing - the earrings and tats at work - is a gender-prude thing, though. I think it's more of a "this cog is not like the other cogs" thing. Unless you're in a "creative" position or working for a firm that values self-expression on the job, looking different from everyone else makes the powers that be think you might behave different from everyone else. They don't want individuals - they want meat machines that fill a certain role in a predictable way.
It's up to the clients, really (Score:4, Interesting)
Then one day one of our desk-side techs (who really was a nice guy, by the way), got a complaint reported by a user. It was a little old lady who litterally was scared of the tech because of the ink on his arms. (a guitar, if memory serves) Instantly a new dress code went into place stating no visible tatoos. He was banished to long sleeves for the rest of his time at the company.
The moral: In a consulting company it ain't the boss who sets dress code. The client does.
-MrLogic
good choices vs bad choices (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering how many types of (strech) pierchings and tatoos are difficult to reverse, why would someone want to get one? What kind of long term plan/goal does it promote?
All you need to know (Score:5, Funny)
Just observe any film of late 60's NASA engineers and you have all the style tips you need for success. Buzz cut, white shirt, pocket protector.
Learn it. Know it. Live it.
Re:All you need to know (Score:4, Funny)
Microsoft doesn't care (Score:3, Interesting)
There still is some rudimentary dress code, though. You can't come to work wearing nothing but underwear for example. There's a legend, and I don't know if it's true or not, that once upon a time there was a guy at MSFT who was too cheap to rent an appartment. So he lived in his office. One Sunday someone caught him in his underwear watching TV in a conference room. The guy got fired. So there you go. Start the party, bash Microsoft for its oppression of nudity in the workplace.
Look how you want others to treat you.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, I know some people here are going "Oh for the love of God! What century are we in that we still have to conform to such out-dated societal norms!? We must break free... blah blah blah" To those people I say "Grow up!" Your days as a rebellious member of some imagined counter-culture pretty much end when you're out on your own making your way in the world.
Yes, there are places still where there is no dress code... but they're the exception as opposed to the rule. If you want a professional job, you have to play by the professional rules set out by employers. Body mods, strange haircuts/colors etc. are a risk you may choose to take, but like all risks you have to realize there are consequences. You can't just run around and do whatever you want and expect everyone to be cool with it. When you work for someone else, you play by their rules.
Don't like it? Then I offer a modified stock Slashdot response for anyone who ever complains about a piece of software:
"If you don't like it, start your own company and set the rules how you like them! Otherwise, sit down"
Re:Look how you want others to treat you.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Can having body modifications hinder someone in their career? Yes, clearly they can.
Should body modification hinder someone in their career? No, I can not imagine any rational moral argument that would conclude so.
The most rational business/economic argument against having employees with body modifications is that the business deals with prejudiced clients, and it may lose money by losing the business of those prejudiced clients. That prejudice is rife in these comments, by people saying things like "it tells people you don't care about the job", or "you need to grow up and leave your imagined counterculture", or "how would you feel if your lawyer/doctor/babysitter showed up with tattoos?" and so on. You get the same kind of projections on lesbians as hating men, or men/women who perform certain jobs, and the various racial prejudices and thoughts people have. While someone with body modifications made a choice to have them, and people do not get to choose their sex, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, the prejudice is morally equivelant and arises from the same error in reasoning. Mistaking aesthetic factors as indicators of merit and character.
So, I think that a lot of people could read what I said and disagree with me in two ways.
One set of people would be the prejudiced and conservative people who would say "Look, that's just the way it is. Deal with it. Why do all of these people have to raise a stink over thier childish, rebellious little fads they want to engage in? You aren't special, you aren't some revolutionary rebel, you are just a regular dude who has to earn a living like the rest of us. You are an adult now, and none of that crap is important." Another set of people may agree with me in the abstract, but then go on to say, "Well, that's the way it might be in a perfect world, but the reality is that, unfortunately, people are going to judge you on these factors, and you can't change that, so you are going to have to play the game by the rules."
I agree that, in comparision to many things, the right to have body modifications without forfieting your place in society is relatively minor. Still, I find it an unneccessary little oppression that makes the world a greyer, less fun and interesting place. People get hostile about it. Why can't the president have a mohawk? Just goofy playing around with appearance. Why does adulthood require we give these things up? Does the requirement make society a better place?
Anyway, it is just one of those little things that I think sucks a bit about life, and I will complain about it whenever I damn well please. People like to tell other people "you can't change this", or "if you don't like it, you can either do this (X) or shut up". Setting arbitrary limits on the discussion, narrowing the range of possibilities.... Nope. You are wrong.
Content Is King, but message format matters too. (Score:3, Insightful)
For example (if we translate all of the messages involved into the spoken word): "Hi, I'm a talented, certified Cisco jockey - just what you need. You can trust me with your crucial data, and trust that I will protect you from Starbucks-fueled anarchist semi-punks trying to break through your firewall to deface The Man's web site. Also, whenever I'm in a meeting with management, you'll see that I specifically (and permanently) have chosen to slightly shock and unsettle the average person, and send a not-very-subtle disturbing message of dark counter-culture and pseudo-tribal pop cultism that will completely go against the grain of your company's typical customers, vendors, employees, and management. But despite my doing everything I can to make you stare at me, I insist that you do not, and only consider me just another applicant. All of this stuff I've done to myself means nothing in the context of what I do at work, because who I really am doesn't matter at work, even though I want the salary of a dedicated IT professional for whom the career actually is important. So, let's talk money! And, are you staring at my eyebrow piercings, my mohawk, or my reptile-eye contact lenses? I can't see very well with them in, and I want to be sure that I'm coming across well in this interview."
From an IT Manager (Score:3, Interesting)
I manage a group of IT professionals, and every one of them has tats and piercings. But it is all done in a way to keep it out of sight during work. Even the large ear piercings are covered with plugs (or whatever the body-mod crowd cares to call them) while at work.
At Happy Hour, the sleeves and pants get short and the fishing lures go in the ears. Nice work, but NOT something that should be shared with professionals and client reps.
But I NEVER would have considered them if they had interviewed with facial mods. I simply could not allow that kind of presentation to clients.
Oh, and my ear piercing scars were removed when I had those "moles" removed by the doctor.
Short answer.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have an appearance issue that I'm sure makes me less employable: I walk funny. Not a big deal, just a minor neurological problem. I'm sure people look at me and ask themselves "Is that guy on drugs or what?" I've thought of carrying a cane, even though I don't even know how to use one, just to emphasize that it's a minor medical disability, not an effect of a debauched lifestyle. But I'm sure it'd come off as a pose. So I just live with it. Life is often unfair, and it's not productive to get self-righteous about it.
My thoughts (Score:4, Insightful)
However, on the subject of tatoo's and piercings I find I'm quite conservative. If I'm being honest I'd find it hard not to feel suspicous of the judgement of anyone in the field who thought it would a good idea to place bits of metal through their face (other than perhaps for non medial purposes), especially if they are over the age of about 25.
I honestly would not feel comfortable with someone who thought it was a smart decision to do this [bmeworld.com] to himself helping design software or network infrastucture and I wouldn't want him in the team I was in. Based on the avalible evidence, I would not trust his capacity for rational judgement (an absolute core requirement for sort of work I do).
With regard to tattoo's I'm of a similar opinion. Having the name of your wife/kids/football team (or something of similar significance) tattooed on your arm, I'd consider quite reasonable and not count that as a sign of poor judgement. The same would be true for things are 'tastefully' decorative (while realisting that term is subjective, I would include things such as celtic crosses, marui tattoo's [2]).
However, this would not be the case for anyone who I observed who had something overtly tasteless like 'Love/Hate' tatoos across their knuckles, or large tatoos of cartoon characters, like Daffy Duck or Tom & Jerry (also equally negative indicators when worn on ties IMO - with some exceptions).[3]
I'd try not to let someone having facial percings or tasteless tattoo's on it's own as something that stand in the way of someone being hired in a job interview, but I conceed that it could count against them in a tie breaker situation. If there was a position for someone in an overly creative area (such as graphic design, or perhaps marketing) I don't think I would consider percings or tattoo's necessarily negative indicators at all.
[1] NB: With a small 'l'.
[2] Not an exhaustive list
[3] I have a deadbeat realtive who incidentally has all of these, and then some.
Re:My thoughts (Score:4, Interesting)
Having the name of your wife/kids/football team (or something of similar significance) tattooed on your arm, I'd consider quite reasonable and not count that as a sign of poor judgement.
followed later by...
However, this would not be the case for anyone who I observed who had something overtly tasteless like
So, a sporting team is fine and a cartoon is not for what reason? Don't get me wrong, yeah, I agree that a football team could have a special significance if you're on the fucking team but don't be one of these dolts who hands me this shit that because they were born in Buttfuck Egypt they need to worship the Buttfuck Egypt football club and anyone else from Buttfuck Egypt who don't kiss the ass of someone on the Buttfuck Egypt team is nothing but a sack of shit.
Being the fan of a bunch of men running a leather ball over a pasture is no more advanced than watching cartoons with a similure fandom.
I'll never understand that about sports fans, they watch some jackasses on a field playing a game and think it's a fine persuit to remember stats and discuss gameplay like they're coaches but if someone goes out and does something like playing video games or treating fixing the lawn mower like an engineering project then suddenly you're a geek? WTF is wrong with people?
If it sounds like a heavy handed rant, I'm sorry. It just seems something is mighty wrong with this "logic" and surprising that it came up on someplace like slashdot. But than again, a lot of illogic goes on around here.
Old folks (Score:3, Funny)
It would have been quite embarrassing even if I were gay, and I don't think the other guy was gay either.
It's hard to say which, but the older guy was either terribly clueless or a complete fucking asshole.
In any case, older people others who live sheltered, conservative lives often don't have a clue about things. People who are set in their ways like that can react with extreme hostility when they're confronted with ideas outside their narrow range of experience.
A more enlightened attitude is that it's your body and you should be able to modify it as you see fit. Just be aware that you can and will suffer consequences in the workplace for having a nonstandard appearance.
at least not in (Score:3, Insightful)
The real "dress for success." (Score:5, Insightful)
When I worked in customer service myself, I got very relieved whenever I got to deal with people who were visibly off-beat, because contrary to popular belief, they tend to be nice people. They go by their own standards instead of forcing themselves to conform to someone else's standards, which means less stress for them, and get this: most people would rather deal with someone who's actually friendly than someone being forced to fake it. Less stress = more relaxed = generally easier to deal with.
I'm also rather saddened that some would call body modification immature. Though I'm sure some immature people modify themselves, it is by no means an indicator; as implied above, I've found a greater degree of maturity in those who are into it than those against it. It's not usually whoring for attention any more than wearing a shirt because you find it aesthetic. It is an aspect of individuality, and individuality is what drives humanity, like it or not. Entrepeneurs and inventors aren't conformists, and I don't think anyone else needs to be either. We're humans, not robots. Frankly, I'd rather my potential jobs be replaced by machines than have to make myself as machinelike as possible to obtain and keep those jobs.
You say potato, I say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
I prefer to think of it as body modifications providing important hiring visual queues for IT managers.
This Just In! (Score:5, Funny)
I fear not the modders.
Small business, the type of business that supposedly makes the US operate, does not willingly accept freaks. They tolerate IT types (people with poor social skills, and perhaps less than ideal grooming habits), but they aren't going to willingly choose to employ people who look like freaks (to them).
It's JobHunting101: All else being equal, the applicant who makes the best impression gets the job. Now if the place you're applying to is full of people with "tats" and noserings, then you're set. But since that hasn't exactly caught on with normal people, your chances of appearing as though you would "fit in" are slim.
If you're a freak, hide it until you get the job (and ideally until you prove that you're invaluable).
whats wrong with that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Tats and piercings are for pussies and poseur. (Score:5, Interesting)
Nipple rings on females can be a problem... (Score:5, Interesting)
It really lowered the productivity of some of my coworkers and most of them could not look her in the eye when they talked to her.
It was no problem for me; I've been hanging around with pierced S&M folks since the early 80s! Been there. Done that.
Hypocracy in Diversity (Score:4, Interesting)
Shaving your facial hair isn't a matter of maturity it's a matter of culture. Many cultures (Amish, Sikhs, and more) have rules dictating this. I fail to see how the body mod scene fails to qualify as a distinct culture, yet people enjoy discriminating against them and calling them names despite having met maybe 2 of said people and making a judgement call in the first 5 minutes of having met them. Personally, I have no tattoos or piercings but I don't have any disrespect for those who do.
Business is about making money, not wearing long pants and a tie.
As a company owner... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:As a company owner... (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the dumping gas on your head and lighting it to show that you're a leader... have you tried this yourself? If not you must be like the rest of the sheep. Can't realize how ridiculous you just made yourself look? This is the kind of stuff teenaged kids hear from irrational parents, not from a businessman that they can respect.
All in all, it's a misconception on your part that makes you think that people getting ink done are doing it to express their individuality. I'm sure some do but I can tell you right now that 90% of the people I know have no idea that I have had a fair amount of tattoo work done. I did it for myself.
*HAIR* is still an issue. (Score:4, Interesting)
I've had job issues based on my hair alone. The most recent was when the little cocksucker (sorry, I don't have enough middle fingers for my former employer.) that became my boss who started calling me "Jesus" and having one of his lackeys follow suit. Yes, because I wasn't showing up to work with polo shirts & boat shoes, I became the one to poke fun at. (These people were all hired well after I was.)
So if you're worried about piercings causing you problems, the answer is "yes, they'll cause problems. So will the tattoos."
Will clients remember your pitch, or your tattoo? (Score:5, Insightful)
At one point, she said something quite wise about appearances, that is a perfect answer to the article's question:
"When a client leaves a meeting with you, the client should remember WHAT YOU SAID, and NOT how you looked".
As a background, I work for a software development company that sells to large financial companies; many of us "geeks" get to meet clients so the lecture was very popular.
To add to that, my own view is "If you need to distinguish yourself from other people by what you look like, there's a big chance you have no other beneficial qualities to dinstinguish yourself with". There are exceptions to this, but not many in my experience.
-DVK
--
"Can't act. Can't sing. Balding. Can dance a little."
- Human Resources Department judgment on Fred Astaire's Hollywood screen test in the early 1930s.
It's called reality. Deal with it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Businesses should be allowed to set whatever dress code they want. Don't like it? Don't work there. Given that I believe that businesses in general shouldn't have to hire anyone they don't want for any reason, I suppose I'm in a minority.
Seriously, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. It's that simple. I don't think anyone out there that gets a piercing or a tatoo or whatever doesn't know that a lot of people, right or wrong, have issues with that.
I have my ear pierced and while it's really no big deal nowadays, there are some places that it's an issue. You know what? I have no desire to deal with or work with a company that's that hung up on an earring. They're tight ass pricks. That's their right. It's my right not to want to deal with them and work elsewhere.
The biggest problem I have with the "different" or "extreme" crowd is that some of them think it's *their* right to do whatever they want and that everyone around them should just deal with it. Yeah? Fuck you guys. Do what you want. I'm all for it. However, quit telling *other* people who they should feel and think. Do what you but be willing to accept the fucking consequences.
Businesses exist, for the most part, to make money. If your cute little lip ring or tatoo impedes that, why should they hire you? Even if you're skilled, it's likely there's someone else who is just as skilled who isn't outside that business's comfort zone. And again, if someone is going to get that caught up over a lip ring, do you really *want* to work there? I wouldn't.
If your response is, "Well I *need* X job." Take your piercings out. If you've got tats it's likely you know the possible consequnces when you got them. If you didn't, you're probably not bright enough to be qualified for any place with a dress code. Beggars can't be choosers. Come on people, this is real life. I'm not telling anyone to give up their "individuality" or personal "expression." I'm not telling anyone to "grow up" because I personally have almost no issues with tats or piercings. (Although there is a point of excess that even bothers me. Deal with it.) Hell, I'm the kind of person who would lose clients before firing or not hiring someone based on appearance. However, that's *my* choice and it's not my place to other people hiring how they need to run *their* business.
Cross culture travel (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically nothing good comes from it and she got it so long ago it isn't important to her anymore. The problems or fears it causes include:
Well this is just my take, I have nothing personal against tattoos or piercings (well on girls tattoos are sexy to me but I feel less professionally interested in pierced people.. and my eyes are always going to the piercing instead of their eyes so it hinders my communication with them I think). If you think you might work in a conservative national or corporate culture one day it probably is better to go with a small tattoo than a piercing is my guess, but if you can make it without either until you are out of school you'll probably be happier later on I'd guess. Whatever!
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:4, Insightful)
I had a group of people in accounting howling with laughter after they attempted to tease me about my red hair. I told them that, confidentially, the president of the company dyes her hair too.
That said, I have a job to make money, and I love what I do. I can't say that I get very attached to companies as much as the people that work there. If the people that work there can't deal with my hair, then I think they care more about my looks than they care about my work.
Either way, I've got that whole eccentric computer geek thing down. I was hired by a companya and told afterword that I was hired because I looked like "a hacker" and they wanted one around in case they "got hacked". Most people just ask my opinion about what computer to buy their kid. Sometimes the stereotype can work to your advantage.
Advice (Score:5, Funny)
Now that would look awesome under time-lapse photography. It would look like your head had gone into critical meltdown.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:4, Funny)
A +5 leather tank top of bewitchment usually works only on co-workers and clients of the opposite sex. Otherwise, it become a -5 leather tank top of unemployment.
You could always wear it with a nice jacket, in which case its charisma effect would probably be neutral, but it might still help your armor class.
It should also be obvious that, usually, only female players can wear it to positive charisma effect, except in very rare kinds of businesses.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazing the things you can learn on slashdot.
The worst part is that the article submitter seems to frame the question as if he is part of some great repressed minority fighting to gain the right to look like an idiot.
Perhaps we should point out that wearing your pants around your ankles and farting loudly during interviews also have the potential to decrease your job prospects?
Who it's a repressed minority (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, who isn't part of repressed minority now-a-days?
Ever since the 60s, if you can claim to be part of some repressed minority, you get to claim the moral highground in any argument and the facts of the argument are no longer relevant to you. Anyone how disagrees with you (no matter how ridiculous and asinine your position is) is The Man, trying to keep you down.
We live in a time where rudeness is rewarded.
Re:Crossing Lines (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, Hot Topic and Burger King are usually hiring, and they generally don't care about tats and whatnot. If you are in the above situation, be thankful that your moment of stupidity didn't result in death(yours or others), suck it up and move on. Don't expect the world(especially employers) to cut you slack for a boneheaded move you made while drunk.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:5, Insightful)
Long hair; Piercings; or Tatoos
has yet been nearly as incompetent, lazy, or idiotic as the former crew.
And yet they haven't figured out how to take control from the inept people who dress and look "normal."
However, buddy-buddy golfers hire more buddy-buddy golfers, and the cycle continues.
The real problem is that you can't get anywhere in life if you take a defeatist attitude, as is the case with much nonconformism. Many (not all of course) are more concerned with being different than with the results of doing so. That's fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't shout, "I'm different," and "treat me the same," in the same breath. Obviously it's unconstitutional to discriminate on the basis of certain fundamental differences (sex, race, and religion), but, religious arguments aside, those are things that are beyond one's realm of control.
The nonconformists don't want to be cogs, and think the conformists are blind for not realizing the part they play. In actuality the conformists are fully aware of their cog status, but realize it's the lowest risk/reward scenario, as exemplified by by your vicious cycle argument.
It could even be argued that the conformists have the greater sense of self, since they don't have the overwhelming need to show the world that they're an individual. In reality of course, 20% are leaders, and 80% are followers, regardless of what color their hair is, or how many orifaces have or have not been punctured.
But what it comes down to is the idea that bring professional is about putting your job ahead of yourself and, like it or not, that's all encompassing. Should it matter what color your hair is? Most people inherintly think it shouln't, although they can't explain why except to say "it just shouldn't." Meanwhile both groups feel that the other looks down on them (Note that this isn't really necessarily the case, just the perception), and as long as there's a perception of animosity, it's going to be a barrier. That's just the price to pay for intentionally being "different."
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:4, Insightful)
How you present yourself to the world says a lot about what sort of person you are. If this wasn't the case then we wouldn't spend so much time on our appearance. You certainly wouldn't go through the pain of getting a tattoo or a body piercing if it didn't convey some sort of a message.
You can pretend that piercing your eyebrow six times makes you some sort of "individual," but that's hardly the case. Chances are good that at the club you hang out at on the weekends half the kids there look just like you. I find it amusing to see packs of these so-called "individuals" roaming around together in their freakish uniforms. The reason to get tattoos and body piercings is to fit in with a crowd, plain and simple.
The question is which crowd do you want to fit in with? Do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is going somewhere, or do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is strung out on dope. Sure, it's possible, even probable in your case, that you simply *dress* like a dope fiend without being one. Theoretically the rest of us should spend some time getting to know the person underneath the freakish exterior before we judge you.
Well, that's not the way the world is ever likely to work. First of all, that sort of behaviour can be dangerous. Quite a few of the people that look like dope fiends *are* dope fiends. And while it's possible that the guy who dresses like a Bible Salesman is really some sort of a hideous menace to society chances are in your favor that he is not.
All of us, to some extent or another wear a mask. However, the mask that we choose to wear says a great deal about the person behind the mask. Only an idiot ignores these important clues when meeting new people, and I have no doubt that you do the same thing. Heck, the reality is that the reason for getting these body modifications is that they serve as an advertisement for the type of person that you are and the types of activities that you are interested in. Employers understand this very well, and they also understand that this sort of personal advertisement doesn't always fit in well in a corporate environment. Employers know that their next client is far more likely to be put off by this sort of thing than attracted by it, and so they hire accordingly.
Re:Dress like daddy (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Funny)
* Entrench yourself in the company
* Make sure the customers never see you
* Push the limits while at the same time making sure that nobody else is capable of doing your job...try using lots of assembly and piercing your face shut.
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, you're an adult now. There are certain expectations put on yo
Re:Ummm...this is 2005. (Score:4, Informative)
You can just be "professional" when you have to... (Score:5, Insightful)
you're an adult now
Yep, totally. And the funny thing about being an adult is being able to choose what you want to do, what to wear and where to work. You want a job at IBM? Then you'll have to adjust to the company's codes.
But it's also stupid to think you can't work in a professional environment unless you look a certain way. In fact it's bullshit. It all depends on what your professional company expects from you.
I wear steel tubes in my ears. I have a long goatee and sideburns. I wear tshirts and jeans. I don't have tattoos yet, but I won't be hindered by my job when it comes to deciding what and where they'll be.
Do you know why I can?
Because it's not what I am expected to be like. Because I don't interact with customers. I don't meet with partners. I'm not an executive and don't want to be. I write code. Basically the only time I'm called out of my office is for status meetings.
Most importantly though, I work for a very liberal tech company. Our execs don't judge you by what you look like or what you wear. I've had hallway chats with high-level VPs while wearing WTF? and "Every time you download music god kills a kitten" shirts and it just isn't an issue.
However, if for some reason I had to give a talk or teach a class to people outside out company, I'd of course choose appropriate attire and look professional, but professional doesn't have to mean being anal-retentive, wearing button-up shirts and kaki slacks.
BUT, if I worked for a company I really liked and they changed the dress code to be button ups and a tie, fine. It's my choice to either work there or find new work. I can adapt, I'm not physically attached to my clothing. The earrings would be a little weird because the holes are kind of large, but I'm sure I could find a solution if I had to.
But I don't.
Re:You can just be "professional" when you have to (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I can occasionally talk to a customer, or draw a flowchart on a whiteboard in front of an audience. But the keyword is: occasionally. I'd very much sit at a computer than spend every day in meetings, corporate power games, or trying to make Wally finally actually do _some_ work, _any_ work. I very much like it when he's not really my problem.
Or to put it otherwise: if I wanted to do either management or marketting, I'd have went to a business college. I chose computers for a reason: that's what I like to do.
So other people will get promoted instead. Good. That I like.
So I've had people I've recruited end up my boss. I'm ok with that. They probably deserved it too, with the amount of show-business they put up for the boss instead of actually working or actually learning programming. But anyway, it still means that I do the job I like.
Some people seem to assume an uni-dimensional rat race and that money is the only thing that matters. They'd do _anything_ for money, or for some stupid social acceptance goal like "promotions are good". They just have to chase some stupid goal that will actually make their life _worse_, much like dogs chase a car: never stopping to think what they'd do if they actually caught one.
At one point it's not even a promotion any more, it's just really switching carreer tracks to a completely new line of work. A new work which doesn't even resemble the old one, and you're not even prepared for, and you're probably incompetent for or don't have the right personality type for. (E.g., an introvert won't really enjoy a life where 8 hours a day are spent talking to everyone, from making sure what the team is doing, to meetings with clients, to meetings with higher level management, etc.)
It's called "Peter's Principle".
Is it worth it? Is it what you _really_ want to do with your life? Would you switch jobs to _anything_, including driving a garbage truck or shovelling manure, if it paid better and was fashionably disguised as a promotion?
Well, if you can honestly answer "yes" to that, yeah, you're in the right rat race. Keep up, brown nose, backstab, and don't let the Joneses get a promotion before you do.
If not, well, then you understand why some of us have "quality of life" as the _goal_, and money and promotions are just _means_ to that end. If the trade-off involved in getting those means actually move you farther from the goal, is actually a bad trade-off. One to be avoided.
(Just as examples of such trade-offs: you get more money but at the expense of getting a stress-related ulcer, or doing so much overtime that you don't actually have the time to enjoy that money, or whatever. Was it worth it? Did it really improve your life?)