Copyright Law Protection for Employees? 138
Copyright Fringement asks: "I've been constantly asked by my employer to install software (Office, XP, etc) on unauthorized computers, as well as duplicate copyrighted material (video, CD's) en masse. I know that there are watchdog agencies that look out for this kind of stuff, and it's setting my employer (or me) up for serious fines and Other Bad Things(tm), but is there a way to protect myself from said Bad Things (tm)? I've explained till I'm blue in the face, but the bosses always: get a glazed look; or give some nonsense explanation. I like my job, but I'm not taking the fall for these guys. What's a self respecting Slashdot reader to do?"
What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:1)
Oh, wait.
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:1, Funny)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I'd just tell the boss that I wouldn't install the software. I've had times that I've needed to tell me boss that I wouldn't participate in illegal activity. They don't like it, but it's the right thing to do.
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
The police officer made a call and found that it was registered, it just didn't have the current sticker on it. I think I could have been fined for this but they just asked that I take care
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:3, Informative)
a) they will not sue you personally
b) they will not press criminal charges against you
c) they will do everything in their power, including have their legal team represent you at their cost, to protect you if anybody else sues you, fires you, files criminal charges, etc.
I have no idea if it will work, but it's worth a shot asking - th
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
Re:What I'd suggest... (Score:2)
No protection for employees (Score:5, Informative)
Speculating here, in practice the copyright holder would probably attempt to sue anyone with the ability to pay (which may still include you, although for a smaller amount than the company might be sued for). And in front of a jury you might get off using the victim defense (i.e. if you could convince the jury that you were afraid of losing your job, etc.). You'd probably still be found guilty but you might escape a fine (at least in a civil suit). At the very least you should document each time you are told to install an illegal copy f something (who, when, what, where, and your protest to your supervisor at the time). Sounds like that could be a full time chore in your case.
Re:No protection for employees (Score:3, Interesting)
No employee should expect to shoulder the burden of verifying that every single thing they do conforms to every possible law and is in fact legal when their bosses give orders and make false or misleading claims. It's an impossible expectation.
Re:No protection for employees (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No protection for employees (Score:2)
No, it's a point of law. Jury nullification is legal and well-established through court rulings and precedence. It's not codified, but neither are a lot of other court precedents.
No Contracts to Break the Law (Score:2)
Re:No protection for employees (Score:2)
In other words, if anyone gets sued it would be the corporate entity not an individual. The corporation takes any legal heat. I thought that was the whole point of having a corporation.
Re:No protection for employees (Score:2)
If that were possible, everyone would form a corporation and then commit all of the illegal actions they wanted. Once caught, they'd fall back on the corporation guilty, individual innocent defense.
Re:No protection for employees (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No protection for employees (Score:2)
There is no protection just because you are an employee following orders.
In either case, all of you can be sued individually.
No, you can't be sued individually for performing your duties as an employee. This can be true even if you weren't directly following orders. The doctrine is called respondeat superior, which stands for "let the master answer".
Of course this doctrine doesn't protect you from any criminal case which could be brought against you, and since you're infringing copyright for the be
Are you sure? (Score:2)
I fail to see how the legal burdern of hav
Get it in writing... (Score:2)
Re:Get it in writing... (Score:2)
With a paper trail, it's pretty certain that you were the one doing the installs. Without it, they will have to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that you were the person who did the install in every instance which they claim is a violation. That's not an easy get. It'll be much easier for them to prove malfeasance on the part of the corporation than to prove it on the part of a single person.
Re:Get it in writing... (Score:2)
Due diligence (Score:2)
Give them the invoice (Score:3, Interesting)
Report them! (Score:2, Informative)
And fill out the form.
Yeah, right... Maybe if there was a bounty. Is there a bounty? Hmmmm
Re:Report them! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Report them! (Score:2)
Would you work for a company that's asking you to do something illegal? That's not a job I would keep. I left one company because the boss insisted that I work seven days/80+ hours a week even though the company has a six days/60 hours a week policy, and HR was looking the other way. You got to know yo
If you're interested in money.... (Score:4, Funny)
Machiavellian? Maybe. Remember the alternative: participating in blatant ethics violations that you know are wrong but decide to do anyway.
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
Is he working for the UN or something?
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
Personally my job does not include keeping track of licensing, that is my boss's job. My boss gets the requests, signs off on them, and gives me the work orders. Unless I am given evidence otherwise I just assume my boss actually checked the licenses. I have had to return a few that request some software which is only free for personal use though.
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
The truth is, while everyone is responsible by law to know if a copyright is being infringed, in reality (as you point out) it's not practical and a jury would probably sid
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
There's no whistleblower protection at goals and expectations setting time. When your boss gives you next year's goals, and you've got 20, and next year's expectations, and you've been asked to do things far outside your realm of control... there's no whistleblower protection. Next year, at performance review time, you'll get reamed six ways to Sunday, a 0% raise, and maybe even demoted. When you finally quit fr
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
There's no whistleblower protection at goals and expectations setting time.
And in order to sue a company for firing you you're going to have to take a big risk that you won't spend a bunch of money on a lawsuit and still lose. If you're going to go the route of refusing to commit copyright infringement, and you can't live off unemployment compensation for a few months while trying to get another job, then you better start looking for another employer.
Really, if you're not working under a contract, and
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:1)
Basically, you need to look at it like this. Can you risk the possibility of having the BSA or some other watchdog group coming after you personally? If not, then you should take a strong stand. Your first course of action is to scare the shit out of your boss, not by making threats, but by getting documented evidence of just what happens to companies that willfully break copyright law. Find the absolute worst examples you can come up with to show to them. Perhaps if they realize that they can be sued
Re:If you're interested in money.... (Score:2)
And the BSA doesn't necessarily have to raid your workplace; they just have to give your boss a nice, friendly call.
Refuse (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Refuse (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Refuse (Score:2)
Every company does some things wrong. You just have to decide if that company does so much wrong that you can't live with it.
Re:Refuse (Score:2)
I agree, suing them is unrealistic. It's potentially worth documenting anyway, if they're going to fire you you can point out that it's illegal and essentially settle with them--but at that point relations are going to be SOUR, so it's probably
That sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Talk to your corporate counsel. If they're not idiots (which isn't a given), they'll realize you're doing them a favor.
2) Don't sweat it. This is between you and your conscience. You may theoretically be liable for these violations, but nobody will be coming after you personally, especially if you have a paper trail covering your ass and super-especially if you've gone to your lawyers.
But, yeah, stuff liek this sucks, especially in a small company.
Re:That sucks (Score:3, Insightful)
s/especially/if and only if/
If you don't cover your butt, you can pretty much expect that your company has documented that you installed the pirated software, and they will do their best to make you the fall guy for it all. Do not trust yo
Re:That sucks (Score:2)
Wouldn't work for the company. No amount of documentation of your activities would get them off the hook. They would be guilty if they knew or didn't know, and if they instructed you or didn't instruct you to infringe. The company's best defense would be to show that they had procedures in place to periodically audit their computers, and they found and removed the il
Re:That sucks (Score:2)
Re:That sucks (Score:2)
Not knowing the size of your company I'd consider a couple other things:
1. How much is the software being used on said computers? If the software or the computers are seldom being used, I'd say don't worry about it. If on the other hand, these an intergral part of what you produce you should really have a license.
2. Is there a free or cheaper alternative that does the same work just as well? If the app in question is Photoshop, could they be using Gimp inste
Fake a letter email from MS telling them to stop! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Fake a letter email from MS telling them to sto (Score:2)
Tell the Powers That Be that you're afraid that some disgruntled employee might turn them in. You like your job, so that's not gonna be you, and make sure they can see that. But it's a very real danger and you're trying to look out for the company. That's the message to bring them.
With that said (and especially if they still brush you off), you might want to consider just how much you like that job. If the company's ask
Documentation (Score:5, Insightful)
What they're asking you to do is violate copyright, and it's just plain wrong. Should you comply, you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt. If the company gets nailed you will be hung out to dry. You would be the one doing the copying and unauthorized installs, not management. The managers can claim they didn't know you were doing it and are shocked -- shocked! that you would to such a thing.
Re:Documentation (Score:2)
It will require a lot of courage to go through with it, though. Point out the fact, however, that you are protecting the company as a whole against potential liability, and you're not just doing it to be petty-minded.
Re:Documentation (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never been successful. I do passive-aggressive resistance instead ("sure, I'll put that on my to-do list") - the bosses are too busy to keep badgering me about every little thing.
Re:Documentation (Score:2)
Re:Documentation (Score:2)
Say that your boss wants you to make a hundred widgets and you think that bad things will happen, say because they don't fit your hundred gromets.
Write an email to him;
"As we discussed this afternoon I will create the hundred 3" widgets, starting on Friday and I expect to finish on Monday. I understand that you need them because of an emergency request by a
Re:Documentation (Score:2)
You're breaking the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Just beacuse it's a crime with a lesser chance of getting caught doesn't change the nature of the act. (Not that the spy and hooker job wouldn't be hella awesome...) You refuse to do it, or you break the law. You don't isolate yourself from responsibility for your commission of a criminal act.
Re:You're breaking the law (Score:3, Funny)
Make sure I get some too ? It's the one lesson we all learned in kindergarden: if you're going to get hookers and blow, make sure you bring enough for everybody.
Re:You're breaking the law (Score:3, Insightful)
Now if
It is time to look for another gig (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not a bad thing, per se. It just means you and they have different values. Would you work at a lab where they routinely sprayed oven cleaner in Rabbits' eyes (even if you weren't the sprayer)? What about at a place that dumped chemicals into streams (even if you weren't the dumper)? How about a place that forced some employees to work in very unsafe conditions (even if you didn't work in unsafe conditions)?
We all have a choice. You can either stay or go; being the "whistleblower" means that you will be leaving almost immediately as you take your parting shot on the way out.
Go for the reward (Score:1)
http://www.siia.net/piracy/report.asp [siia.net]
not surprising (Score:2, Interesting)
how is the general public supposed to find copyright infringment wrong when companies are doing it, and your boss is telling you to do it...
Wrong question (Score:4, Insightful)
Fortunately small in this case. My very inexpert opinion is that an employee who does something illegal at his bosses request has no more legal coverage than if he acted at his own initiative. But the chances of your being prosecuted or sued are very small -- in past situations like yours, the IP police have gone after the company, not the individual employees. Of course there's no guarantee that they'll always do this.
The question you should be asking is "What do I do?" There's no simple answer there. You say you like your job, but you're also concerned about the legal risks you're running. You have to weigh one against the other. And this is something you just have to do for yourself. You're the one at risk of unemployment and/or legal peril. Only you can decide how important all the factors are.
It's certainly not fair that your bosses have put you in this position. But that's the kind of shit that we all have to deal with.
If you're determined to put an end to this situation, there are various outs -- all of which put your job at risk.
Give us a call! (Score:1)
Re:Give us a call! (Score:2)
Where are you getting the Y?
call the bsa (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yup, been there (Score:2)
I was in pritty much the same situation, but this time it was local goverment, and not only that but they'd been caught with it before. New IT manager, new mistakes. He ordered everyone around to "bend the rules, and we'll fix it later". but they never got round to it.
Problem was he started getting shirty about my personal blog when i made a joke about one of the councillors in the area. So much so i ended up resigning. A quick talk with the BSA and now i hear that idiot is also out of a job.
While i've
Nonsense - he screwed himself (Score:4, Insightful)
No, his actions caused him to lose his job. Had he behaved ethically and responsibly, he would still have his job. He asked for it, he got it (Toyota).
Re:Yup, been there (Score:4, Insightful)
This is one of the best truisms I ever heard: if you never piss anyone off, you're probably not doing anything worthwhile.
I'm a nice guy. My natural inclination is to be everybody's friend. If you never have to deal with people whose views may disagree with yours, then that's great.
But sometimes, you have money involved. Sometimes, your relationship with someone puts one of you in a senior position within some organisation. Sometimes, you simply have a strong difference of opinion with someone, or your ethics mean you disapprove of their behaviour. In these cases, it's impossible to be everyone's friend all the time.
I've come to the conclusion that when this happens, the only two things that count are having principles you believe in, and sticking to them. To me, and amongst other things, that means you back people up when they deserve your help, you deal with people with honesty and integrity, you negotiate firmly but fairly, and if someone is doing something wrong, the consequences are their responsibility, and theirs alone.
Report them to the BSA (Score:2)
They'll come in, do an audit, fine the beezubus out of them, and give you a cut.
Then take that money as a severance package and get a job with some folks who aren't complete kneebiters.
I dislike the BSA as much as the next
Let Microsoft be the bad guy. (Score:2)
Re:Let Microsoft be the bad guy. (Score:2)
Re:Let Microsoft be the bad guy. (Score:2)
You'll be fine...just CYA (Score:2)
There's alot of paranoia going around, huh? Yeah, if you knowingly break the law under company orders, you're still breaking the law, but criminal charges for something like this are generally unlikely. In cases like this, businesses are usually held responsible...and the business will look for an employee scapegoat. At this point, I should probably get the IANAL out of the way...so IANAL.
Here's what I'd do, send a written meno to your boss and his/her boss. Make sure that they get it, and make sure t
Your best defense (Score:2)
Union (Score:1)
My advice: organize.
For get your job - it is dead anyway (Score:2)
Forget about your job. The company is dead, and therefore your job is dead. They just don't know it yet.
There are whistle blower laws in place to protect you, but you better be working with the police if you want to apply them. (This may be a civil matter where they don't apply)
Update your resume tonight. The only reason you wouldn't take a new job (even for less money) is if you were collecting evidence, even then you should ask them what you should do.
Contact every piracy organization you can
Get legal counsel (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Get legal counsel (Score:4, Informative)
By the way, I'm not an attorney but I am married to one and I get a layman's explanation on lots of interesting legal subjects (my wife requires me to say that I have NOT asked her for and she has NOT given me advice to pass on the Slashdot on any subject, past or present).
Tell them about the BSA (Score:2)
I like to mention the disgruntled employee thing, because it puts things into terms they can understand.
Re:Tell them about the BSA (Score:2)
Terms they can mis-understand, you mean. Putting it like this will almost guarantee that your boss will take this as a threat by you to do exactly what you describe.
Making your boss think you are threatening him is NEVER a good thing.
This guy's boss is clearly incapable of understanding ANYTHING more complicated than a nipple - and people like that judge everybody else by their own set of morals. Hi
What's a self respecting Slashdot reader to do? (Score:2)
e.
We're missing the obvious answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Explain that they will need to pay for the software before you install it, but if they want you to install Linux and OpenOffice, then you'll be happy to comply and it won't cost them anything for the software.
Forget the BSA ... (Score:2)
You're fine (Score:2)
1.) You don't have nearly as much money as your employer, so a software company isn't going to sue you. They're going to sue the employer. Seriously, you go for the deep pockets - not the guy installing software.
2.) The legal doctrine of "Respondeat Superior" covers you. It pretty much means that the "Employer answers for the crimes of the Employee". If a software company is going to sue for infringment, it's as if the lawsuit passes through you and onto your empl
Are you sure? Civil vs Crim (Score:2)
I would send a nicely worded email to your boss (&whoever else relevant) stating you will be glad to install the software, but the company needs to make sure it has correct licences. You also need a series of activation keys because otherwise "false" alarm bells may be ringing at MS.
What's a self respecting Slashdot reader to do? (Score:2)
Just install ubuntu, firefox, thunderbird on the machines, and place a windows Longhorn [top secret] wallpaper on the desktop, and tell you boss you got the latest windows W4r3z on the computer, and within 3 months everyone woudl haev seamlessly gone from typing
>>john@drinkbeer.com[tab]I am bored at work[tab]Hi JJ, I need some beer, fuck work, my boss is a twat.
and clicking send to typing
>>john@drinkbeer.com[tab]I am bored at work[tab]Hi JJ, I need some beer, fuck work, my bo
piracy (Score:2)
Pirating windows is wrong UNLESS you are installing it in a virtual machine on an OS that has a valid license. so you've paid your license fee and are just extracting more usefullness from that license.
you are using a pruduct for personal education. NOT that schools can pirate software! for instance, if you are typing up a report, or a letter, or a memo, or whatever in a piece of software that is n
Have your employer indemnify you. (Score:3, Insightful)
But, really, the smart thing to do is to spend the $500 to ask a lawyer this question. They'll know what protection your state gives innocent employees of criminal organization, and what can and can't be indemnified against.
And a good lawyer will also be able to tell you how your state's employment laws can keep you from losing your job if you refuse to perform illegal acts.
Re:Have your employer indemnify you. (Score:2)
Re:Have your employer indemnify you. (Score:2)
Sure you can. If the employer was dumping toxic sludge in the gutter and you called your governor, you'd be a whistleblower. If you notice that they seem to be committing copyright violations and blab about it, you might very well be lying.
Especially if the goverment can't prove a thing, the copyright holder setttles or doesn't care, and YOU can't find the cash to mount a good enough defense.
Not to metion the fact that, since the questioner
What to do. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What to do. (Score:2)
You have to refuse from the very first time. (Score:2, Interesting)
Dont try the 'nazi excuse' (Score:2)
It wont fly..
Your only real choices are to get a statement that the license is legal, or quit your job..
If you *knowingly* install it, you are as liable as the shop is. Having the statement above would let you off the hook. But dont hold your breath on getting it.
Insightful AC posting, film at 11 (Score:3, Insightful)
The courts would have no trouble at all proving that you deliberately made the copies, knew you were violating copyright, and hence did it deliberately.
They would also have no problem proving that it was done for commercial gain, since it was clearly saving the company money. Hence, you would personally be liabl