Software Engineering vs. Systems Engineering? 79
An anonymous reader asks: "I recently graduated with a master's degree in computer engineering. I am currently a software engineer for a defense contractor. They (same company) have now offered me a position as a systems engineer. Any advice? What are the long and short term ramifications of the change, in respect to job duties, advancement, compensation? I am pretty much fresh out of college, with only a year of co-op experience. I am a little over whelmed by the choice with no experience to go by, but I also don't want to pass up a great opportunity. Thanks for the help."
Code or Bla? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think that I would find Systems Engineering boring. Of course, I am a Software Engineer.
If you are in defense contracting, get the highest clearance level that you can, preferably T.S. That will give you more job security and demand on the contracting market if you do need a new job. That is way more important that Software or Systems engineer.
IMHO, you all should be worrying about your computer jobs over the next 10 years, EXCEPT in defense because they can't outsource classified projects to India.
Clearence (Score:2)
Re:Clearence (Score:2)
Re:Clearence (Score:2)
Re:Code or Bla? (Score:2)
No...
I've been told by several people to keep it on my resume because just knowing that I've had it and can get it again can be valuable.After 18 month of inactivity, having had a Secret means nothing at all, they simply are not that hard to get, the time it takes is because of back-log. Essentially the same issue with TS, except the investigation is a bit deeper.
Re:Code or Bla? (Score:2)
Re:Code or Bla? (Score:1)
For my TS... (Score:1)
Re:For my TS... (Score:2)
Re:Code or Bla? (Score:2)
Re:Code or Bla? (Score:2)
A layer of abstraction (Score:4, Informative)
A Software Engineer will be closer to the code, though in the defense industry there are software engineers who don't do alot of coding.
As far as career advancement, I don't see a whole lot of difference. It all depends on what you want to be doing....
Re:A layer of abstraction (Score:1)
Re:A layer of abstraction (Score:1)
OTOH, with schedule pressure and penny pinching, I've seen the Systems Engineering group squeezed to the point that they really can't do their job...
Overall, my recommendation is to check out how it really works in the positio
In systems engineering they... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry. Can't help it. Consider the ethics of what you'll do for a living in either position.
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
One man's flamebait is another man's reality. Frankly when metamoderating I tend to disagree with all flaimbaits that are obvious (posting goatse links for example).
Ahem. (Score:1)
In systems engineering, you focus on how you go about making you kill more of them instead of you.
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:3, Insightful)
My school [wright.edu] works extremely closely with the DoD. Subsequently, most of the people that graduate end up working there through job placements (they guarantee a job within 6 months of graduation). Needless to say, I'll probably have to turn down a few offers which will invalidate my guarantee. I'll be broke, but at least I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror every morning.
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
He should go work for Lockheed Martin, where their #1 job is preventing suicide bombers.
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:2)
Re:In systems engineering they... (Score:1)
Watch the name calling :{) (Score:1)
The title (system engineer) is misused across the
industries. In some sectors it means field tech
support, sales support, and customer trials
monkey.
So some clarity of job description might be needed.
In Telcom equipment industry your definition would be called a systems architect.
And NO you won't make more money at Borders...not unless you own the store.
Re:Watch the name calling :{) (Score:1)
I've been both (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, the choice basically comes down to what you prefer. Both are heavily analytical but software engineering is probably a little less "dynamic" (not in the good sense) than systems. The reason is that systems primarily deals with hardware and operating systems; stuff that changes often. You get behind and it's tough to catch up. It's not often that you get a new language to work with as a software eng, but sometimes concepts change.
I personally have gravitated recently toward being a systems engineer (R&D) because I actually get a kick out of the dynamic nature of systems at the moment. However, stability isn't really there; there's plenty of people younger than I who are quite willing and able to do some of the same stuff I do... but often I bring a level of experience to the table that they can't beat. On the other hand, software engineers are easier to outsource / offshore!
Do whatever you think you will enjoy. Myself I find that systems engineering can be tedious; I've just spent an entire day at work troubleshooting problems with Lights Out cards on HP Blades (turned out to be another engineer had cocked up the IP subnets on 2/3 of them!), and so to be honest I feel like I've come full circle and accomplished next to nothing today. I must admit I had fewer days like this in Software because at the end of the day no matter what I had usually made strides in the code I was working with.
I guess this might help; if you enjoy massive bugfixing sessions in your current software engineering job, then you might be a good match for systems engineering. If you prefer the creative element to software engineering then systems is probably not for you.
Hope this helps!
Re: (Score:1)
Re:What the hell? (Score:1)
Re:What the hell? (Score:3, Insightful)
Gee, that kinda looks like what he's trying to do, in a slightly more abstract sense. He IS fresh out of school, he says. He probably doesn't have many connections and more experienced peers to look to. I think it's a perfectly appropriate question for Slashdot because there are lots of professionals here who can tell him about what they do.
"Then grow some balls and make a damn decision by y
Re: (Score:2)
journey vs. destination (Score:1)
At least I'd like to think that's why the editors posted it...
Re:What the hell? (Score:3, Insightful)
This was a sweet rarity, a truly useful Ask Slashdot. The whining critique is neither sweet nor rare, but a predictable stink.
A title is just a title... (Score:4, Informative)
Hope this helps..... (Score:2, Insightful)
neither (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:neither (Score:1)
Sorry but a lot of what defense contractors do is just that, defensive, not offensive.
Why dont people realize that being this against religion is just as extreme? Our nation was created to be a safe haven for people to worship freely, you are entitled to believe what you want, just as the President is entitled to believe what he wants.
Re:neither (Score:1, Offtopic)
I won't physically harm anyone of any religion, but I will tell anyone that their ideas are idiotic. Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in something in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
I did not get to vote for Bush or Kerry or Nader or Cobb or anyone else. I was under 18. If you really
Re:neither (Score:2)
I admire your idealism. I propose that you go dig up landmines in Vietnam.
Re:neither (Score:2)
Re:neither (Score:2)
I agree it is, except he proposed quitting because the military does bad stuff, not because of anything having to do with the person's own personal situation. That's laying down in front of the tank. That is 100% idealistic, for good or for ill.
So... if all the ethical people quit, would it be better or worse?
Engineering? (Score:2)
Get a mechanical enginering degree and move on from there. That's what I'd have done if I wasn't so stupid and poor 25 years ago. Learn to love learning stuff other than ones and zeros before you start designing software. Programmers are a dime a dozen and pretty replaceable.
Re:Engineering? (Score:2)
My Take (similar position) (Score:2, Insightful)
If you go to systems, you'll be working high level requirements pretty much all the time. You will attend meetings constantly, one-on-one or group meetings, and will mostly bicker over details. Granted, you are trying to hash out what a system (hardware or software) does, and this is part of it. Sometimes this can get out of control and that can be very frustrating. Systems moves slower and is not as aggressive as software, so you lounge for a while and then its pain time.
System people do the same thin
Engineering, it ain't (Score:1, Insightful)
There's barely any theory (and whenever we have good theory, such as the relational model, it's soundly rejected by pretty much all of the people you'll run into, who view ignorance as an asset to be treasured). Design is possible, but has little to do with the final product. UML is Satan's Notation. Development platforms and languages are ill-def
Re:Engineering, it ain't (Score:1)
Translation: "Hi, I'm an asshole."
There's barely any theory...
Translation: "I somehow got [presumably] two EE degress without learning anything about computer science and probably faked/cheated my way through most of my math classes."
Basically, you're ignorant. Design can have as little or as much to do with the final product in software as it does in any other engineering discipline. Engineering software is no different than any other; design,
Hobson's Choice (Score:3, Informative)
Pick door number 2.
Do you like to have a job? (Score:4, Informative)
Dude, this is a no brainer. Take the JOB, not the dirty, blue collar, life limiting, chicken shit cop out. You can always code for free on the weekends on some open source project to get your ya yas out.
It is your choice... (Score:3, Insightful)
This post is an agregate of posts that I've read in this discussion, filtered through MY filter based on MY experience. Take it as that.
As a systems engineer, you will be doing a lot of writing. This writing will be specifying how systems will work. In order to do this job competently, you will need a lot of experience with how the system has worked in the past. In order to write the correct stuff, you will need experience that you have not yet had.
My advise is to tough it out with a real-world company (i.e. not government contract work) for a bit and see what real-world engineering entails. After you get sick of that, go back to the government contracts and change the way they waste money.
Private industry teaches you a lot that you will not learn working at Boeing/Lockheed/whoever.
In defense dept? (Score:2)
Somehow, I don't think you know (Score:2)
Systems Engineer, of course! (Score:2)
Its a title (Score:2)
Theoretically, a "Systems" engineer focuses on more abstract design and the interaction between various modules of a system. In reality, you're the new kid and you'll get whatever project your boss has that nobody else wants.
Sometimes being in particular titles can help or slow your promotion prospects. At one gov't employer that I was at, a IT Project Manager star
Very simply put (Score:1)
Simply put (Score:1)
System Engineer = Actualy analyses, designs and defines the system (sometimes codes with the monkeys)
Re:Simply put (Score:1)
why not CE? (Score:2)
Systems is very tedious and abstract... if you're used to being low level with HDL or whatnot, SW will be more fulfilling to you - actually solving problems, instead of creating them.
As someone in the industry... (Score:1)
I'm in software currently, and of course we deal with the details, the "small picture." We take the wishful-thinking requirements and make them actually work, while suggesting useful features back up the
Re:As someone in the industry... (Score:1)
I'm a software guy who's in constant interaction with systems to refine things.
I've worked with some great systems people. The idea of making requirements makes me cringe though. Getting into some code is where its at for me, whether I'm fixing it or creating it.