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The Almighty Buck Upgrades

When "Lifetime Warranty" Memory... Isn't 97

Posted by Cliff from the word-of-warning dept.
InakaBoyJoe asks: "What do you do when memory with a 'lifetime warranty' fails? You send it back to the dealer of course -- if they're still around. But when I called The Chip Merchant, they refused to honor the warranty, citing a change in ownership. But they also claim on their website to have been doing business since 1985, and are still using the same name, domain, and phone number as before. So it seems the new owners are trying to reap all the benefits of a connection with the old company, while incurring none of the liabilities. How convenient! Instead of an apology for the months of headaches caused by the bad RAM, I got the runaround and was told to contact some guy in San Diego. The policy is also mentioned here. This means that anyone who bought 'lifetime warranty' memory from The Chip Merchant before April 19, 2004 is SOL. Given the popularity of this vendor, I think this is a pretty big deal. And what these guys are doing sounds vaguely illegal. What recourse do we have when companies pull a fast one like this?"
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When "Lifetime Warranty" Memory... Isn't More

When "Lifetime Warranty" Memory... Isn't

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  • Computer Senility? (Score:5, Funny)

    by biryokumaru ( 822262 ) * <biryokumaru@gmail.com> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:31PM (#13928886)

    Are you telling me my computer is going to go senile and there's nothing I can do about it?

    Speaking of senile, I wonder if god will give me a refund on grandma...

  • Apparently (Score:5, Funny)

    by Neil Blender ( 555885 ) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:31PM (#13928888)
    Lifetime refers to the life of the chip.

  • let's see if slashdot helps (Score:3, Interesting)

    by yagu ( 721525 ) * <yayagu@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:34PM (#13928904) Journal

    Hmmm, since you managed to get this as a slashdot article I'm not going to lose any sleep that you won't get you your refund. You will.

    This is a perfect example of where I think there is some power and benefit to blogging, as discussed in this slashdot article [slashdot.org], and my post [slashdot.org], among others. Dollars to donuts, you'll get your refund, and The Chip Merchant will issue some clarification of their policy. Good luck!

    (And the poster does seem to have a valid point, I'm looking at different listings for memory for "The Chip Merchant", and under warranty for the memory I looked at, they are all listed as lifetime .)

    Hmmm, maybe when memory fails, they're unable to remember their policy.

  • Fairly simple, effective solution (Score:5, Insightful)

    by USSJoin ( 896766 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:38PM (#13928926) Homepage
    Disclaimer: IANAL. However, a lot of my family are, and I was talking to them about a related issue, and this was their solution.

    File suit. No, not a big-money high-powered attorney type lawsuit; head on down to your local Small Claims court.
    Why is this good? Well, small claims courts have a maximum damages amount of ~$5000-$10000, depending on where you live. However, you don't need to be a lawyer, you can argue your case yourself. And the filing fees are reasonable for the rest of us: where I live, the cost is $7.

    All you need to do, to file, is say that you have exhausted all other measures in dealing with the company: so, sounds like you've called them. Write one letter, telling them that you intend to sue, and send it by certified mail. Give them 15 days, and on the 16th, file.

    You can file locally to you, not them, even if they're in another state. The court notifies them of the trial date. And then, come trial day, you go, argue your case (again, no lawyer necessary), and-- they don't show up, usually. So the judge rules in your favor, and gives you a judgement-- which is *incredibly* fun to have against a company.

    So this approach gives you everything you want, including the pleasure of revenge, and you get your money back. Happy Hunting!
    • All well and good, but you have to collect.

      • Re:Fairly simple, effective solution (Score:5, Insightful)

        by willfe ( 6537 ) <willfe@gmail.com> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:45PM (#13928975) Homepage
        A valid judgment from a court is among the easiest things in the world to sell to a debt collection agency. Sell it for 80% or so of its face value, walk away with much of your money, and let the agency deal with collecting the judgment. Way easier to deal with than a bounced check.
        • Yeah, right. I won a small-claims court case for $14,000. Debt collectors weren't the _least_ bit interested in it, not for any percentage.
          • I suspect you are full of shit. Besides that I have never heard of a small-claims court with a limit as high as $14,000, it just defies any reality that no agency at all would be interested. I'm saying you are full of shit.

            • Perhaps you should google first [nolo.com].

              Georgia, Delaware, and Tennessee have small claims limits of $15k, according to the above website. (2 counties in TN have a limit of $25k!)

              Perhaps the above poster is just an idiot and didn't try to collect on his claims. Depending on the state, you can get somewhat aggressive at collecting small claims, and you may even get interest on an unpaid claim!

              Disclaimer: IANAL, I just looked this information up when I had to take someone to small claims court a few year

            • The suit was filed in Alberta small claims court (actually, I think, "Provincial Court of Queen's Bench). Alberta has a limit of $20,000 Canadian.

              In the end, I hired a lawyer to go after the company, at which point the company signed a statement saying they had no assets (clearly a lie, or the assets had been illegally transferred), no income, and no outgoing cash flow (this latter was provably a lie as well).

              My lawyer advised that it wasn't worth pursuing. If you still don't believe me, let me know and I
          • I'm with you there. Some degenerate bitch owed me money and I got a judgement. Worth less than the paper it was printed on. The parent poster is a fucking idiot. A judgement means NOTHING. People forget the judicial branch has no enforcement power.
            • If she had property or a job in California, supposedly you could have garnished them [ca.gov] or placed a lien [ca.gov] on them.
            • A judgement against a person and a company are two different things. A judgement against a person with no net worth can be essentially worthless.

              A judgement against a company means they either pay, or go bankrupt. There is no third option.

              Okay, so this means a judgement against a company on the verge of bankruptcy anyway can be worthless. True.

              But this doesn't sound like the case here.

              I filed for bankruptcy against a company that I had an outstanding judgement against once. Was fun. Oh, I received

          • Was this judgment against a individual or a company? I would assume a collection agency would be more interested in going after a company.

            With an individual there would be effort tracking them down and the like. With a company it seems it would be a more straightforward and have a much higher chance of return.
    • I've filed a lawsuit before and I had to file where the defendant was located. Perhaps this varies but can anyone clarify when you can file locally and when you have to file in the defendant's location?

      • Re:Fairly simple, effective solution (Score:5, Informative)

        by ninewands ( 105734 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @12:45AM (#13929824)
        The easiest way to handle a matter of this nature is to file suit where the defendant is located. This is because you only have to get your judgment and then, after a certain period has expired (varies according to local law), have the court issue a writ of execution on the judgment. Under the writ, a local constable will tell the judgment debtor to surrender sufficient assets to be sold at auction to satisfy the judgment or to pay up in cash. Never underestimate the ability of someone big, not too smart, and bearing a badge and gun, to collect a debt.

        If you decide to go the stubborn way and sue in your own local court you could well find your case going all the way to the US Supreme Court before you have a collectible judgment. Trust me, IAAL, suing in the defendant's locale is the easy way to handle small claims.
         
    • I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but that sure seems like alot of trouble to go through for maybe $100 worth of memory (the OP didn't say what it cost I don't think). Fine if you are a student with lots of free time, but I hardly think most people would take time from work to pursue it.
      However, the letter *threatening* a lawsuit is probably the easiest first step.

      • Re:Fairly simple, effective solution (Score:5, Insightful)

        by billcopc ( 196330 ) <vrillco@yahoo.com> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @10:42PM (#13929266) Homepage
        $100 worth of memory is just the beginning. When suing, you can try to argue the lost income of dealing with this problem.. factor in troubleshooting time, any money paid for tech support, the time you spent on the phone arguing with the dipshits.. time is money.

        Warranties are nice for the casual user, but they're an intangible asset for a company. When you buy something with a 3 year warranty, you can count on having it work for 3 years and not have to budget for it because it will be repaired/replaced free of charge. If that warranty becomes void, so does the paper value of your product.

        Your 100$ device has cost you far more in lost time and potential income, you'd be a fool to not try and stick it to them, if only to send a message to these crooks.
        • (mod this waaay off topic but...) this is exactly what is wrong with our litigious society.
          While I agree with trying to send a message to a company that they can't renig on published promise, this mentality is the same that fills the pockets of personal injury lawyers. Ughck.
          • Fine then. Screw litigation, let's lynch these crooks!

            There is no "perfect" solution to human mischief. Some people are honest and well-meaning, many more are selfish, treacherous and war-like. As long as we will have these two polar factions, we will have litigation.

        • I'd verify the parent's claim of being able to sue (in small calims court) for expenses not actually incurred. Besides, your troubleshooting time and lost productivity will likely not be part of the warranty. Almost nobody is stupid enough in this day to not explicitly exclude that from their terms.
    • Nice idea, but it's trivially easy for the company to get it bumped up to a regular, non-small-claims court. In that case, you need a lawyer, and now it isn't worthwhile - you're not going to pay someone $200 an hour over a $100 memory chip. If the company is big enough to have an in-house attorney (so the cost to the company is virtually nothing), that's sure to be their first move.

      And of course collecting on a judgement is a whole other issue...

    • You can file locally to you, not them, even if they're in another state.

      That's not necessarily true. In my state you can only sue an out of state defendant if they own property here [state.ct.us]. The party I was looking into suing was in Georgia, and you must sue where the defendent resides [consumeraffairs.com] there too.

    • Pardon my ignorance, but once you have a ruling against them, what recourse do you then have for getting that ruling enforced? Getting the ruling doesn't seem like the "end" of the process. What comes next? I figure some sort of law enforcement has to get involved to see to it that the ruling is enforced. If the losing defendant is in another state, what jurisdiction does your local small claims court have over that state's law enforcement? And if the answer to that is "none", how can the local law enf

  • Hay (Score:5, Funny)

    by Leffe ( 686621 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:40PM (#13928940)
    What recourse do we have when companies pull a fast one like this?


    Fire, lots of it. Burn their offices down. And see if you can find my stapler while you are there, it is red!

  • Chip Merchant (Score:5, Insightful)

    by the eric conspiracy ( 20178 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:44PM (#13928969)
    I used to buy my stuff from the Chip Merchant, but when they sold out the character of the operation changed remarkably. I was probably one of their earliest customers - I found them in MacWeek, and remember hearing a woman and child in the background when placing an order. They guy was probably working out of his house at the time.

    It's sad to see a company that used to be trustworthy turn to the dark side like this. Needless to say I am no longer one of their customers.

    BUT as far as changing owners, they have no right to just blow you off. You have a contract with them. Contact the BBB in the area they are located, as well as the State Attorney general. A lot of companies try to screw people knowing that they just will not be persistant enough to complain. When they start getting letters from the Attorney General it will get their attention. I have done this in cases where the company tried to stiff me on a rebate. It usually works.

    • This is right on target. Change of ownership doesn't mean the new owners can keep the lucrative long-term contracts they like but toss the warrantee ones they don't want -- it's still the same company.

      New acronym, by the way: TIS, TTAL (this is /., talk to a lawyer)... but common sense is certainly on your side. Also see poster a few posts up who talks about small claims court -- I'll be willing to bet that you'll never even need to sue, because they probably just have a POLICY now where they don't honor
    • I remember the Chip Merchant when it was discussed on newsgroups - well before the WWW.

      You're right - when a company takes over the name, they take over the obligations.

      Else they ruin the reputation that they paid for.

      Too many companies forget that it's more expensive to obtain new customers than to hold on to loyal old customers. And when they start to lose their old customers a new base is even more difficult to obtain.

    • Contact the BBB in the area they are located

      The BBB has no power. It's basically just a club that businesses can join, a club that gives you a sticker that you can put on your door that makes customers feel better about you.

      If your business is not a member, then the BBB can't do anything to it.

      If your business is a member, the BBB will rate it based on the number of complaints they've received on it and they'll make some token efforts to resolve complaints, but if the company doesn't want to pl

      • They do have a BBB logo on their website. So, it can't hurt to report it.
      • Don't forget, the BBB is paid by the members (i.e. the companies) not the consumers. I've known them to give a business their highest ratings and report no complaints, when I personally knew of several people that had filed complaints with them about that company.

        I think each local branch is pretty independent, so they aren't necessarily all that corrupt, but I would expect most are, given the way they're structured.

      • Re:Chip Merchant (Score:3, Informative)

        by MrResistor ( 120588 )
        When my wife and I bought our first car together the dealership kept jerking us around, after all the papers were signed. After about a week of "we need you to come over and re-sign stuff again" my wife filed a complaint with the BBB and the next day the manager of the place was ready to clean her shoes with his tongue.

        So, I suspect you're just being a naysayer. But, either way, it costs nothing to file a complaint, and it may have positive results.

        • ...the next day the manager of the place was ready to clean her shoes with his tongue.


          Hmmm. Did your WIFE tell you this? Are you sure it was just her shoes? Gotta watch those women...

        • my wife filed a complaint with the BBB and the next day the manager of the place was ready to clean her shoes with his tongue.

          Ok, which means that the manager was probably not even involved before you got the BBB involved. You probably could have gotten similar results by calling up the manager himself. Also note that the issue wasn't about money -- it was about paperwork. It probably costed the manager nothing to make your wife happy in that case, so he did.

          Making good on the `lifetime warranty'

          • Ok, which means that the manager was probably not even involved before you got the BBB involved. You probably could have gotten similar results by calling up the manager himself. Also note that the issue wasn't about money -- it was about paperwork. It probably costed the manager nothing to make your wife happy in that case, so he did.

            Wrong on all counts. It was about money (they decided we didn't qualify for the loan they gave us 2 days after all the paperwork was signed), the manager was involved from the
            • Wrong on all counts.
              Well then, I'm glad the BBB came through for you. But you should be aware that you were lucky -- it doesn't come through for everybody, probably not even for most. The BBB does not work for you -- it works for the businesses that are it's members. Sometimes things work out in your favor in spite of that, but not always.
              • It costs nothing, is sometimes beneficial, and doesn't preclude you from taking legal action later on.

                Maybe they aren't looking after our interests, but I'll bet they are looking after their own. If they ignore all complaints, then the BBB sticker would quickly become meaningless. Honest businesses (and yes, there are honest businesses out tere) would have no reason to join; why pay the fees if your membership means nothing to potential customers, or, even worse, if membership associates you with shady busi
      • There is a big old BBB seal right on the web site.

        Methinks they are a member. If not I am sure the BBB would be interested to know that their trademarks are being used without permission.

      • Exactly. Display of a BBB logo on a merchant's premises or website should be treated like a warning label. It says "We know we're shady, but want to make you feel better." When you visit any high-complaint business' premises, chances are you'll see the BBB plaque.

  • Bad publicity (Score:5, Funny)

    by general_re ( 8883 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @09:50PM (#13929000) Homepage
    What recourse do we have when companies pull a fast one like this?

    thechipmerchantsucks.com is currently available. ;)

    • Others have said small claims court, which is good if you're on a budget.

      But, (OP), remember that we live in the USA, where anyone can sue anyone else for any reason at any time. (Sure, you'll get laughed out of court suing your parents over your circumcision, but that hasn't stopped folks.)

      If you're a member of Pre-Paid Legal or something similar, you might be able to get a deep discount on attorney's fees.

  • Corporations Live through Purchase (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Crutcher ( 24607 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @10:02PM (#13929066) Homepage
    Your waranty was issued by a corporate entity, and as such, is a contract with that entity. It doesn't matter how many times the ownership of the company changes, as long as the company exists, the company has a stable timeline.

    Short answer, what they are doing is not legal, nail them for breach of contract.

    • Re:Corporations Live through Purchase (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @10:20PM (#13929142)
      Your waranty was issued by a corporate entity, and as such, is a contract with that entity. It doesn't matter how many times the ownership of the company changes, as long as the company exists, the company has a stable timeline.

      Short answer, what they are doing is not legal, nail them for breach of contract.

      Not so fast! If a company goes broke and they sell just the name as an asset, the next company is not accountable for the obligations of the former company. Those things are happening all the time. Same guys, same name, but different entity.
      • Not so fast! If a company goes broke and they sell just the name as an asset, the next company is not accountable for the obligations of the former company. Those things are happening all the time. Same guys, same name, but different entity.

        The AC is correct. See Air America's shenanigans (under a new corporate entity that's largely the same as the old ownership) over the grant money to care for Alzheimer's patients that was improperly lent to them.

      • I had the same thing happen when I tried to get warranty service for an old Visiontek card, so I know how you feel. But names would be worthless as assets if they had to stay attached to the obligations of the former owners. Sometimes companies do agree to take on the prior obligations, at least partially, (the new Visiontek at least offered me a discount on a new card) but it's never to be taken for granted.

        On the other hand, if a company sells goods or services with the deliberate intention of avoiding th
      • Simply put; if the other owner got the previous owners' client portfolio, they are obliged to fulfill contracts/warrenties.
        So if you had a login for their website from before the takeover which still worked afterwards; they have also bought the client portfolio including all responsibilities.
        Correct me if I'm wrong, IANAL.
      • If the corporation goes under, then the name is an asset which gets sold off. It's a piece of property, not the corporation as a whole. Most obligations are gone.

        If, otoh, the company is purchased along with all the corporate obligations, then the new company must honor the warranty. If the obligations are not "purchased" in the transaction, then they must be assigned to a responsible party. That's who you would have to sue.

        It's easier to sue the current owners, and make them prove they're not responsible.
      • They either need to honor it or you file a complaint for false advertising for the 'been in business since xxxx' claim.

        They shouldn't get both.

        Small claims is probably worth a shot.
        Try asking them to appear on Judge Judy or your favorite equivalant ;)

        IANAL, but was involved in bankrupt/name/ownership changes... and we make a similiar been in business claim ;)

  • Shameless plug (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dpilot ( 134227 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @10:18PM (#13929132) Homepage Journal
    I hate to make a simple, shameless plug, so I'll just give my reasoning.

    I pretty much always buy my memory from (Company X) because they're owned by (Company Y) who actually makes memory chips. I figure they own it, they built it, they tested it, their name goes on it, and there's no dilution by being able to point the finger at someone else. I also like the fact that I can buy from a memory maker, rather than some reseller or DIMM builder.

    I recently had a DIMM from (Company X) go bad. I called them up, told them my story, and exchanged the bad one for a new one, no problems or hassles at all.

    It had a lifetime warranty, and was about 1.5 years old.

  • Go to court (Score:2, Interesting)

    by AuMatar ( 183847 )
    I actually saw a case like this on a court TV show once. It was about a company honoring a previous owner's coupons, but same difference. The company lost. So if you do go to court, you have a decent chance of winning.
    • <sarcasm>
      Yes, because real courts follow the rulings of the stuff you saw on TV. Just cite the reference law of CoutTV case docket #12213221 and any court in the land will enter it as evidence.
      </sarcasm>


      I'm not saying that the OP doen't have a good case but I don't think it's wise to give legal advice based on your TV viewing habits. If I did, I'd tell you that a DNA test takes about 2 minutes to run!
      • I didn't say it was a drama. I said it was a court show. As in- one with a judge running it. Those do tend to try and follow the law.

  • IT AIN'T RIGHT! (Score:5, Informative)

    by BrianRaker ( 633638 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @11:24PM (#13929477) Homepage Journal
    Yaknow what, I live in "America's Finest City", a.k.a. San Diego, and live no more than 5 miles from the offices of The Chip Merchant. Try contacting Michael Turko [sdcitybeat.com] at KUSI News [kusi.com] (Non-affiliated television station with a penchant for doing consumer fraud news stories).

    Funny thing is, KUSI's studios are less than a 5 minute's walk to The Chip Merchant's San Diego offices (they are pretty much in the same office park).
  • The Chip Merchant has sucked monkey's a$$ as long as I've even heard of them.

    People that know - newegg.com. Of course, I would generally go by the manufacturers warrantees vs. any corparate reseller.

    I guess your warranty was good for the life of the management of the company.

    Subtlely..I am reminded of the following:
    Tommy: Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?
    Mr. Brady, Customer: [confu

  • Kingston (Score:4, Informative)

    by Guspaz ( 556486 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @12:25AM (#13929730)
    The solution is to buy memory that comes with a lifetime MANUFACTURER warranty. Kingston (Think Kingston Value Ram and Kingston HyperX) memory comes with a lifetime warranty, and you deal directly with the RAM manufacturer, not the vendor/store.

    I had a SODIMM in my laptop test as faulty, so I gave Kingston a call. It wasn't much trouble to get replaced, they didn't care about when I purchased it, and they even cross-shipped me a replacement. Much more reliable than a small computer store that might not be around tommorow.
    • I have bought probably hundreds of RAM sticks in my day, certainly not as many as some, but most, if not all, have had a lifetime warranty through either Kingston, Crucial or Corsair. I've never had a problem switching out bad sticks with them.
  • If the seller assumed all existing liabilities (a very common condition), then the seller is the one responsible for replacing your bad chip. Likely the guy in San Diego is either the seller or a person/company that was paid to handle that liability. Your warranty is from the old owner. The new owner starts fresh.

  • Given the contact information on the site regarding previous warranties, I suspect that they filed bankruptcy. Case number 03-03874-JM7 looks suspiciously like a bankruptcy code.

    In order to meet creditors, they would have liquidated assets, which would have included the name, the business records, customer lists, etc. However, the new company that took over the name would be a brand new corporation. A bankruptcy filing with liquidation would have wiped out any such debts.

    Confirmation: Greg Akers, as liste

  • > What recourse do we have when companies pull a fast one like this?"

    You post your story on Slashdot and hundreds or thousands of geeks never shop there again. That will cost them much more than paying for one damaged memory chip.

  • Sorry (Score:2)

    by sribe ( 304414 )
    Despite what other people are telling you, you will have absolutely no legal recourse. The original company was shut down and had its assets seized and sold off by the IRS. The new company will not have any of the old company's liabilities. The only thing you have a legal complaint about is the claim on the web site that they've been operating since 1985, because that is clearly false.
    • You can go after them for false advertising.

      Well, YOU may not be able to but anyone who bought from them since the bankruptcy can, if they bought based on the "in business since 1985" statement.
      • Actually, I might have been wrong. I specifically remember that the tax authorities shut down The Chip Merchant. But I realized after posting that I don't know for sure that they were sold. They might have been forced into bankruptcy, and therefore might still be the same company, in which case the court might or might not have relieved them of their obligations under old warranties.

        Might, might, might. It's still worth asking the question because that claim might be bogus. I'm just not as sure as I was whe
  • What recourse do we have when companies pull a fast one like this?

    About the only thing you can really do is not shop there anymore and spread your story as widely as possible to deter others from shopping there. Unfortunately your own financial loss in this case isn't something you'll likely ever recover, so you should just write it off as a costly learning experience.

  • It's up to the court to decide but considering they have been bankrupt you may lose if you try. They would argue such before a judge. That's all you can say.
  • i've never, never, ever had a bad experience with kingston when it came to getting warranty replacement memory. i've heard so many first hand stories of other sysadmin and engineers who have had only good things to say about kingston, that for any server build/upgrade, kingston has been the only brand i've spec'ed. i've heard good things about crucial from my brothers in arms, but i personally have not used them...

    back in the day when 64 and 128 mb upgrades were in the four figure costs, you didn't want to

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