Online vs. Traditional Degrees? 467
Justin Rainbow asks: "As a computer science student, avid internet user and full-time programmer I find it very appealing to finish my CS degree online. Finishing at least a year early and studying whenever I want are just a couple of the draws to the online campus. However, are these internet degrees even worth the paper their printed on? Is an online degree just a waste of money? Can an online degree give you just as many opportunities as a traditional university? Has anyone in the Slashdot community graduated from one of these online schools? Did it help or hurt your career? What about graduate school admissions? Does an online degree hurt your chances to get into a great graduate school?"
Classes offered online (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Classes offered online (Score:4, Informative)
It's not just major universities, it's also community colleges. I teach at a community college, and although I haven't taught an online course, I know many people who have. Most of what I hear is pretty negative -- the students are typically taking it online because they think it'll be easier if they don't have to show up to class.
I don't understand how they can offer an entire degree online. For instance, there's typically a ged ed requirement for a B.A. that you have to take a physical science course with a lab. How the heck are you going to do a real college-level physics lab course, for example, if you don't have any of the expensive equipment? What would a chem course be like? "OK, now mix some baking soda and vinegar, and post about what happened."
I agree (Score:2, Insightful)
I think it depends on the degree, but in general, when you want to get your REAL degree from graduate school you definately wont want to do it online.
Re:I agree (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I agree (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, what's good about a person who does their entire degree online. They may have never worked in a group. Learning to work in a group is an important part of your education and is very important
Re:I agree (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I agree (Score:5, Interesting)
The other thing that troubles me is the fact that you're studying computer forensics. This is more than studying habits of people - its where to find files on a computer, how to hack encryption, how to literally pull a drive and mount it on a clean machine, etc. I'm sorry, but I have a little bit of a problem trusting an online course for this type of stuff. Something that sounds as simple as pulling a drive and mounting it isn't as easy as it sounds. I have one machine thats so damn picky, I barely touch the hardware or make major changes to the OS, but I use it as a DB and test machine for home projects... I'd love to see someone attempt to pull that drive and make a copy of it... Wikipedia delves into the hardware argument a little more [wikipedia.org].
Hell, I want a degree in Mechanical Engineering and the most I'm THINKING about doing are my core classes and I've been researching online schools for awhile because I'm so picky about quality. The only reason I'm considering that is because of my current location - outside the US.
Sorry, DeVry may be a valid school, but its not on my personal lists. One thing you can do is transfer at some point so your degree will actually come from something better looking. When you do that though, you'll probably have to consider taking a few classes over and a lot more classes on top of what you thought was the degree program. Also, when you apply for jobs, don't be surprised if you actually get tested on the skills you say you have. I've been tested on everything from my typing speed to the ability to bring windows back from the dead. In a level 3+ technical support position, its not uncommon to be put in font of a computer and have someone say "theres your error - fix it". Something as simple as a Windows DUN error 691 sounds simple, but is it really the username/password or something else... (I just pulled that out of thin are - thats more of a level 1 question - sorry)
Re:I agree (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I agree (Score:2)
Eric
Read my Invisible Fence Guide [ericgiguere.com]
Re:I agree (Score:3, Interesting)
"Mathematics is an experimental science, and definitions do not come first, but later on." - Oliver Heaviside. Now, you might argue that Heaviside didn't have much authority to say that as he wasn't a "true" mathematician and he pissed off the academic community at the time* but I find it a bit of a stretch to claim mathematics cannot be called a science, be it by denotation or connotation.
* While working on using Laplace transforms for all sorts of nifty things,
Re:I agree (Score:3, Insightful)
True.
Computer Science teaches you how to program computers, while Computer Engineering teaches you how to program computers properly.
That's a pretty bold statement, and it leaves out a lot. First of all, CS tends to be more concerned with the software side, which is inherently more mathematical -- a good CS program will teach you not only how to program, but why you should do certain things certain ways -- while CE tends to be closer to
Re:I agree (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I agree (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Classes offered online (Score:2, Interesting)
I briefly attended a community college with online and by-wire classes. I spoke with someone who had taken Chem 1314 online, and when I asked the same question I got the same answer you just assumed. They'd use household items in really basic home experimentation la
Re:Classes offered online (Score:5, Interesting)
We had 2, 1 hour online lectures a week - two or three students out of about 20 in the class attended with any regularity, the professor also commented many didn't even take the time to listen to the playbacks later (they were avialible for download or listening through basically a browser plugin).
A signifigant part of the final grade was from particiaption, just listening to the lectures and commenting in an online discussion group - the class average for those 'easy money' points was about 60%.
That's not to say online classes are better or worse than on campus classes, but the percpetion from the students, and I gather your experiance would agree with that, that these aren't 'real' classes. I'd be concerned that an online degree might be seen by employers in the same light, at least an online university might be. Online coursework from 'established' universities might be more accpeted.
Re:Classes offered online (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Classes offered online (Score:5, Informative)
1. FSU had a requirement that you MUST take Florida government classes. At the time I inquired, they would not substitute these classes for something else (like government classes from your own state).
2. U Hawaii required that you take final exams on site. If you can afford 2 trips a year to Hawaii, then this is a great option. Oh damn, you MUST go to Hawaii twice a year! What a HORRIBLE degree plan!
3. NJIT seems to have pulled back what they now offer for someone seeking a CS degree. In addition, NJIT had the highest tuition of these 3 programs.
Ultimately, here is my take. A degree is a degree. Obviously the more recognized the name the better, but don't fret over that too much. Try to avoid programs that give "life credit" for working in a real job, or offer things like "Bachelor's Degree in Computer Studies". These things look funky on a resume, especially if you apply at a prestigious company or university. You may also look at local schools in your area if you live some place with choice. Here in Dallas, The University of Texas at Dallas offers many of their CS classes at night, and if you take your basics at night at a local junior college you can get through while still working. This is obviously a tough path, and one that will take many years of hard work.
Good luck to you!
Re:When Harvard or MIT offers online courses (Score:2)
Re:A good job pays at least $100,000 a year. (Score:2, Informative)
I
Re: (Score:2)
Re:A good job pays at least $100,000 a year. (Score:3, Insightful)
This sounds an awful lot like someone making excuses for not being very successful by blaming someone/thing else for their lack of success.
I didn't go to an Ivy league school. I went to a moderately well respected state university and earned a bachelor's degree in CS. Later (while working) I spent a couple years in the evening getting an master's degree in CS (from a school you have heard of and probably think is pretty good - but it was a complete waste of time as it was less in depth than my under
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Classes offered online (Score:2)
I can also say that these on-line classes are no different than if I were to take them in person. In fact, they actually are "real, in person lectures" that are merely video-taped and placed on-line.
A traditional degree is better for grad school (Score:5, Interesting)
Not only this (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine getting a business or law degree online and trying to become a judge or work for a fortune 500 company.
Go for it! (Score:2, Informative)
The most important difference (Score:2, Funny)
Re:The most important difference (Score:2, Funny)
Re:The most important difference (Score:3, Funny)
How's that?
Re:The most important difference (Score:4, Funny)
I'm sure the guy's OK most of the time, but don't push him too far.
There are some things up with which he will not put.
Re:The most important difference (Score:2, Interesting)
Look, d00d, I'm not some kind of grammer cop. I only correct people who make their gramatical errors in the course of a snobbish dismissal of other people's educations.
Re:The most important difference (Score:2, Informative)
Joe-sixpack type steps onto the Harvard campus looking for a restroom and asks a student/professor/degree-up-the-ass-type, "Excuse me, where's the bathroom at?"
Student/professor/degree-up-the-ass-type says, "Here at Harvard, we don't end a sentence with a preposition."
Joe says, "OK then, where's the bathroom at, asshole?"
Lighten up, asshole. ;-)
Re:The most important difference (Score:3, Informative)
English first! (Score:5, Funny)
If you can't find the error in that sentence, you shouldn't be allowed to get an online degree!
Re:English first! (Score:2, Insightful)
Finding them is an exercise left to the reader.
(Sorry to perpetuate this...)
Re:English first! (Score:3, Funny)
"Where is the library at?"
"At Dartmouth, we don't end a sentence with a preposition."
"Oh, okay. Where is the library at, asshole?" - Anyone know the attribution to this joke?
Their for they're is wrong.
Yes, it matters. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is really, really bad advice. Even though I've learned most of what I know through practical experience, my 4 years of college has really helped me. Too many programmers don't understand foundational concepts, and subsequently they lack the tools to adequately understand how to solve a problem. Picking some arbitrary age limit and saying that you shouldn't do any formal learning after that time is just plain stupid. Shame on you for even making that suggestion.
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:5, Insightful)
However, a degree will generally add at least 10 g's to your salary, when you are compared to someone with comparable skill without a degree. College is the way to go. Doesn't matter if it is online or not - a degree is just an extra foot in the door. Talent and people skills will take you the rest of the way from there.
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:2)
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never seen one who lacks skills because he or she didn't go to college.
I have. Several. I've known some very bright programmers who could cut code just fine, but whose lack of formal education really limited the nature of the problems they could solve. There are a bunch of classes you get in a decent CS curriculum that seem very pointless and abstract -- things like Theory of Computation, Compiler Design, Algorithms and Data Structures -- but not having that foundational knowledge really hurts. There's also lots of benefit to learning a significant amount of mathematics (especially discrete math, but all of it is good).
Of course, you don't actually *need* to go to college, on-line or in meatspace, in order to learn that stuff. You can just pick up a book and do it yourself. In practice, though, it's much easier to learn it in college, and most people who don't go to college will never learn it on their own.
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, let me see if I can help you here. Let's say that you like to sing. So you listen to a bunch of songs on the radio and sing along. But in doing so, you never learn to read music. That means that the first time that someone hands you a sheet of music you're stuck, because you don't know how to read notes.
I've been paid to write code since I was 14 (and I'm now 42), and when I got into school I thought that I knew a lot. And I did. B
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:3, Insightful)
Or just 3. Buy books and read them.
It sounds so easy, doesn't it? But how many people do you know who have actually purchased a dozen textbooks and invested several hours a day for two or more years to reading them and working through all of the proofs and programming assignments?
I've done the first part of that myself. I've bought lots of textbooks, and I've read pieces of them, but even though I enjoy the subjects (mostly math), I haven't succeeded in getting through even one of them. Without a co
College unimportant ONLY if text read on your own (Score:5, Insightful)
I side with the other responses strongly disagreeing with this. I too have seen many gifted programmers who had gaping holes in their knowledge because they did not study various uninteresting or seemingly unimportant topics. They were great at what they did study but they were not well rounded, more like a technician in some ways rather than engineers. In my own personal work I have occasionally had answers to technical programs come from completely unexpected sources, from topics I would never had the forsight to have studied on my own initiative.
Your statement is only true for the extremely minute portion of the population that will read *all* the textbooks on their own initiative. It does a great disservice to otherwise intelligent programmers who would benefit from formal training. For example most aspiring game programmers out there might be under the illusion that they just need to read some OpenGL books, maybe some graphics and AI gems, and they are ready. They would never image that the answer to some problem they will run into comes from some boring databases book written in the 80s, or from a microeconomics text, or a psychology class, etc. I emphasized non-computer science but I want to be clear that the "gaping holes" I referred to above was in computer science. The material you cover in a formal degree program is valuable and almost no one has the self discipline to study *all* that material on their own and need the prodding of professors. I did. A friend did not, and he is the rare exception who did not, the rest delude themselves.
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:2)
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:2, Interesting)
Its common practice in the enlisted grades of the US Defense Department to go to school via online programs, "military programs" and distance learning because it works better with over seas deployments. However, if you take 100 average DoD lab employees, put them in a room, and interview the
Re:Yes, it matters. (Score:3, Insightful)
Never believe your education has ever finished.
Is the online school accredited? (Score:2)
Re:Is the online school accredited? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is the online school accredited? (Score:2)
Most want three, some only two. Where did you apply to grad school?
Re:Is the online school accredited? (Score:3, Informative)
"Submit three letters of recommendation. Recommenders should know you relatively well and be able to evaluate the quality of your previous work. At least two should be from faculty or recent employers. With the online application, letters will be requested and submitted electronically. Letters of recommendation are due by January 3. All deadlines are final. Letters received after this date may not be considered in the review of your application."
They can be the same (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:They can be the same (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:They can be the same (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:They can be the same (Score:3, Informative)
You get what you pay for (Score:2, Troll)
Universities are in the business of selling degrees. They do whatever they can to make the value of a degree in general and their degree in particular seem as high as possible.
One of the greatest benefits of a university degree is the network of contacts one can develop. Graduate students especially have an expectation of a relationship with one or more professors, but also with other graduate students. Those relationshi
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:2, Insightful)
If you're already in the work force in your field and are looking to expand your knowledge and skills, these personal contacts are not as essential. You're already employed, you already know people and have a social infrastructure. Online courses make sense then as all you really need out of them are the knowledge in your noggin and
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:2)
That's a good point.
It depends (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, you have to make sure that you're able to stay motivated working in an environment of your choice. Like many telework situations, some people find that they're not productive at home due to too many distractions. I know a few people who are incredibly smart that have received online degrees and it really depends a lot on how motivated you are and how much you want to get out of it. They also recommending asking as many questions as possible to make sure you get the most out of your education experience.
Degree is not the be all (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you'll be successful in what you are doing. You have to actually do something people can use [e.g. want, has a value, etc] to make money and/or fame. If you're lucky enough to be self-motivated to do your own work/projects then online could be ok. However, most are not and required a good kick in the ass to get going.
Another good reason for attending real school is you get to meet new peeps, socialize, do something other than being alone at home.
I can see the value of an online degree but only in the most limited of situations, e.g. you're already working and you want formalization or you live in the sticks and can't afford to move out, etc.
Tom
Re:Degree is not the be all (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Degree is not the be all (Score:2)
A big part of my college time was lots of access to my professors and kicking about their offices working on projects and
it's the students (Score:5, Funny)
Looks like the brick-and-mortar ones aren't worth much either.
Not really a good way to go outside of tech (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not really a good way to go outside of tech (Score:2)
The idea that you won't interact with other students is completely false. I have two advanced degrees, an M.S. in mathematics from the University of Florida earned at the school and an MBA from Baker College earned through their online program. I had just as much interaction with my fellow students in both programs.
The only criteria that really matters in terms of acceptance (other than general quality of the program which you have to consider with a brick-and-mortar program also) is whether or not the
Wow (Score:3, Funny)
Real School (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as it is backed by a real school, I see no problem at all.
Re:Real School (Score:2)
Fry's Electronics.
Sadly, the whole "get your degree in 3 years, and cheap!" thing doesn't seem to impress the people hiring for Real Jobs, even when it comes from a brick-and-mortar school. I bet they'd be even more dubious about an online one.
Now, on the o
Re:Real School (Score:2)
Where do you live? (Score:3, Interesting)
It probably depends on where you live. I did three years of high school completely online in Sweden, only visited the actual school building once. My grades I got from that school are no different than my brothers grades he got in a "regular school" (only mine are higher, but that's because I didn't drink so much beer, anyhow). I know there are several, real, universities here where you can read different courses and get lesser degrees. So it's certainly possible. If you are talking about the kind of "university" you get spam from ("get a prestigious degree from uni. of liverpool" or something) then you should of course stay away.
Recent grad here (Score:4, Insightful)
on to grad school... (Score:2)
Grad school admission staffs are also wondering whether people who graduated with an online degree is worth what is printed on the paper. Many professors are already skeptical about how an applicant's transcript reflects his/her true academic performance, with a traditional degree. An online degree has very little precedence, so they would only be even more skeptical. You not only have to have good grades, you also need to stand ou
They can be (Score:5, Informative)
When I decided to go to law school (2nd tier), the fact that I had earned my distance learning degree wasn't even mentioned (yes, I was accepted). In my case, there is no difference between my degree and the same degree earned on campus.
I'm certain there will be a lot of naysayers who are convinced that all online degrees are worthless, but it's not true. It depends on the school (accredited, etc.) and the type of degree you're looking for. Even if you're just looking for a way to get some extra credits, most schools will let you take DL courses from an accredited school and transfer them into your program.
Do your research and you'll find there are a lot of legitimate options out there. John Bear has written some good books about where to get quality distance learning education.
Re:They can be (Score:3, Interesting)
If someone's talking about U Phoenix or the like, I don't care if it's online or not, it's nearly worthless.
With any online degree program, the one thing that will always be missing is the person-to-perso
petrie dish (Score:2, Funny)
Depends on the Other Party (Score:2)
Re:Depends on the Other Party (Score:2)
Open University (Score:4, Interesting)
Accreditation is the key (Score:2)
Both have their place (Score:5, Insightful)
* Classes meant for you to present something in front of an audience. (Speech)
* Classes meant for the students to learn to work on a group project like they would in the workplace.
* Classes designed for face to face interaction of the students.
Otherwise it is mostly up to the student. Some people do fine taking classes online. Some people do not.
Visit a college campus and take a look around! (Score:5, Insightful)
You might make friends in different fields that open doors which you never considered. You never know who you will meet and what opportunities will arise from these chance meetings. Additionally, social networking is one of the best ways to find employment. You might do an internship and get hired or find other talented people like yourself and start a company (read the history of Hotmail).
Online learning tends to be very isolated and there is very little chance of meeting interesting people and connecting with them. Online courses are likely filled with people chasing a piece of paper and missing out on a far richer experience. Online learning also decreases the number of females you will meet that aren't from India or China. Please note, I am not biased against Indian or Chineese women, they just statistcally tend to comprise the majority of female computer science graduates. Going to a brick-n-mortar college will land you in a liberal arts class where you might find a date or even future wife. Remember, sometimes the journey is it's own reward
Maybe Slashdot could do a longitudal study of your education and career path choices to find out the answer to online vs. traditional schools and lifetime opportunities at the 4-year and 8-year mark. I've been to both type of universities and definately prefer the face-to-face interaction at a traditional school and have found it to be a much richer experience.
Re:Visit a college campus and take a look around! (Score:5, Insightful)
I fully agree with the parent and would like to point out that another thing to keep in mind is that on campus recruiting provides huge oppurtunities for a career. Companies come to career fairs at a campus because they respect the school's program. It's much easier to get an interview with these companies because you get the chance to talk to their recruiters one on one no matter what your resume looks like. If you do decide to get an online degree at least make sure that you are able to attend these events on the college's campus.
You also don't want to miss on out on your chance to meet with professors as other posts have pointed out. Every professor that I've ever had has had specific hours during the week for students to stop by their office just to talk. Getting to know people who are already well established in the field in a personal way can give you a huge advantage as a professional. While I'm sure there are chances to communicate with professors in online curriculums I have a hard time believing that you could achieve quite as personal of a relationship. Knowing a professor or two is crucial to having a good grad school application as well.
If you do decide to go with an online degree it is very important to put a lot of effort into gaining the same social experiences you would with an on campus degree.
Depends... (Score:2, Insightful)
The experience left me wanting the interaction that comes in a classroom setting. Discussion posts were stilted, with some simply filling the requirement using regurgitation of the text to get the minimum grade. I am a strong advocate of web-based technology, but teaching a class using it exclusively is a hollow experience to me. I had much better experiences using the
Let's see ... $5 a ream, 500 sheets per ream (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, probably about that much.
Cheers,
IT
Missing the Most Important Thing (Score:2)
Re:Missing the Most Important Thing (Score:2)
WAKE UP!
My recommendation (Score:3, Insightful)
The point of qualifications (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're in the position where you need to learn something, and it's not all about the piece of paper, then online learning can be a great help at fast tracking this in an inexpensive way.
However if you need a piece of paper that says MIT on it so you can negotiate a 20K payrise, then your online-only university isn't going to be much of a help.
It's not the nature of being taught by correspondence, but rather the esteem of the university which issues the certification. Online courses available from certain ivy-league universities are still considered legitimate, because the issuer is considered with high regard.
The reason why people have negative feelings to online courses is because there is an over abundance of fake degrees available online, which use catch phrases such as "Earn a degree, based on your existing life experience", and "Qualifications in XX hours".
Wave of the future (Score:2)
A professors view of online degrees (Score:2, Insightful)
Online degrees. (Score:2, Informative)
No, I'm not telling you which one.
That being said, yes, an online degree is worth it. You have the opportunity to have constant contact with your classmates and your teacher throughout the program, instead of waiting days to see them (especially if you commute to campus). The online curriculum has to be just as good, if not better, then wh
Online?? (Score:4, Funny)
Tm
Perspective from a current online student (Score:2, Interesting)
I received my undergrad physically present at a liberal arts college. After freshman year, I think you get a lot more valuable stuff out of college than just the knowledge you gain in class (things like social skills, teamwork, and communication).
However if you've been working as a knowledge worker out in the world I think you get enough experience/practice with these in your work, and will not gain the additional benefits of gett
Do employers care about regular degrees? (Score:2)
Depends on what you want out of it (Score:2)
Read Dr. Bear's guide to distance learning (ISBN 1-58008-202-5). This man is the expert in figuring out diploma mills v. legitimate schools.
Consider a p
Well, read this (Score:3, Interesting)
Furthermore, as others have pointed out, lack of contact with professors essentially kills your chance of getting into graduate school.
If you're just interested in it as a certificate, I again second the advice of others, you should get it from a real university's online program.
My mother got a Master of Science Education from the Univ. of Montana, which had a big online component (about half of the courses). BUT, it was not *entirely* online, there were significant summer courses. Nonetheless, she liked the program greatly overall.
Read this [firstmonday.org] before you enroll, though. David noble's anti-technology stance is a little extreme for my taste, but he makes excellent points regarding the weakness (and distasteful history) of correspondence-based education. It's out-dated
Don't rush through college... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not only that, but you're on your own, you're surrounded by other people on their own.
Seriously, for any of a thousand reasons, don't shortcut college.
Life's a journey, not a destination. Stop running. [yahoo.com] (Obligatory Demotivator [despair.com]
Check out this site FIRST (Score:3, Informative)
This is a website maintained by the University of Oregon that details all the SCAM online Universities for you. So, this is important to check out first, before you spend any money online.
Also, having checked them out, I consider University of Phoenix a lousy University, as their teaching methods are suspect for technical degrees. I found that out when I interviewed as a teacher with them.
Re:Do they make a difference (Score:2, Funny)
Three years of study on the web or three years of study with parties, drugs, sex and women?
Ummm, we are talking about CS degrees here...
Re:Don't get fooled! (Score:2)