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Businesses Programming IT

Qualifications for Summer Internships? 134

Posted by Cliff from the how-much-experience-do-you-need dept.
DMBeiler asks: "I'm a first year computer-science student, with a lot of computing background. I learned C++ in the curriculum here, but am also familiar with Perl, PHP, and know my way around Linux. I consider myself adept enough to pick up a working knowledge of a language fairly quickly. As an underclassman, with little formal training, do any jobs/internships exist for me, say, over the summer? What do I need to bring to the table to be considered for even a menial position, these days?"
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Qualifications for Summer Internships? More

Qualifications for Summer Internships?

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  • Who do you know? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Have you developed good working relationships with your professors and classmates? A lot of the best opportunities at your level will be decided more on who you know than what you know. Make friends and ask around. Good professors will have contacts. You need to start networking and I don't mean the TCP/IP kind. Also check with your schools career center.
    • I very much agree with this. I am actually a 3rd Year undergrad. and I just recently got myself an intership with an investment bank doing some software development. I have a slightly larger skillset, and a little work experience, but it wasn't them that got me my internship (which i hear from ex-interns tends to turn into a job post-graduation...). What got me my internship was my relationship with my professors, and the alumni network at my school. I do research with a professor of mine, and she conta
    • I agree as well.

      I now have a job at a corporation, and that's cool.

      We had an "intern" come to our office for 2 weeks. It was unpaid, and almost unofficial. She was put in contact with my boss because she is going to school where my boss is an alumni network. It was not much more than a "bring your student to work" day, but for her, it was a great experience. We got her meetings with a variety of people across campus so she could get a feel for the different business functions. We also gave her some wor
    • As good as that is, it's nice to go to a school with a good co-op program. Makes it much easier to find a job in the off season when you got the university lining employers up for you. My university had > 95% placement rate, and lots of people got really good jobs. The jobs payed pretty well too.
    • I got an entry-level office job doing clerical/spreadsheet work the summer after my freshman year in college, based on the fact that I knew my way around computers... and my father knew one of the vice presidents of the company. Connections won't usually get you a job by themselves, but it can be damn hard to get a job without them.
    • Good point made here. Another idea would be to approach a faculty member about doing a research project with him/her over the summer. Of course, choose an area you have interest in, and then choose a faculty member in that area. Not only will you be able to accomplish something you can be proud of, but this is a huge way to make yourself known in your department, furthering your meat-space networking.
    • I get offered internships and student worker jobs left and right. I've found I make a lot more money working for myself, and that I am more greatly appreciated while running my own business. My clients seem to be pretty happy people, and in return they pay me good money. Screw these low pay slave jobs, I like being my own boss, it just takes a lot of self motivation to get started. I've been programming since I was about 12 years old though, so that may be put at an advantage. If you are going to take this

  • That's easy! (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    1. Technical and business curiosity
    2. Solid communication skills
    3. A great all-natural rack (and we ain't talkin' servers) and some tight, low-cut clothes
    4. A "team-first" attitude!

    With that, I'm sure you'll find a great position...
  • In my area (Richardson, TX), there are plenty of internships to be had, though that varies from region to region. It sounds like you're on the right track, learning languages and skills above and beyond what the school teaches, as that's what's going to make you stand out from the other 200 applicants. Here at UTD, anyone who's taken principles of Unix is going to have a basic knowledge of PERL and will have written the back-end to a web server of some sort (the semester I took it, we wrote an airline res

  • Skip the internship thing... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by __aaclcg7560 ( 824291 ) on Monday February 27, 2006 @06:45PM (#14812448)
    Try going for a job instead of a internship. Having an internship on your school record or resume may look good to school officials and some business types, but real work experience counts a lot more.
    • I thought being an "intern" didn't specifically mean whether the job was real or not or paid or not. All my summer internships during high school and college were paid, except one summer that was a volunteer job. The paid internships were working for a Fortune 500 company and a university actually doing useful work towards their bottom line. Of course, YMMV, as some other interns at these places really were photocopier jockies or gophers. One internship even resulted in a very nice job offer.

      As far as q
      • > People hiring summer interns don't expect 20 years of .NET experience.

        Darn.. THEN WHO DOES?

        I want to put my skills to use, interviewers always look at me funny when I mention my 20 years of .NET experience .....
      • People hiring summer interns don't expect 20 years of .NET experience.

        Yeah they do.

        In reality, they are hiring interns as a 3-month interview process

        Summer internship. 3-month interview process. Yep, that's about what I'd expect from the average middle manager.

        • Summer internship. 3-month interview process. Yep, that's about what I'd expect from the average middle manager.

          Tried to get a regular job at Microsoft last summer. Had five managers told me that they were interested in my resume and would set up an interview soon. Three months later, no interview with anyone from Microsoft but got a job with IBM on the first interview. Go figure.
    • "Try going for a job instead of a internship. Having an internship on your school record or resume may look good to school officials and some business types, but real work experience counts a lot more."

      While I agree with the parent that real work experience counts for a lot, what the parent doesn't mention is the fact that in todays business world, unless you are EXTREMELY lucky, have the right connections, or are just that good your resume will get tossed out the second they see you don't have any actual

      • You have little to no REAL experience (being a student doesn't exactly count unless you're a masters student)...thus you will be getting little to zero pay in exchange for getting a chance to get some real world experience to bolster your resume.

        This isn't quite true for engineering. You get paid far less than a full time worker, yes. But you generally get paid very well for a college job, more than pretty much any other summer job you could get (short of having great connections to a plum job). Generall

        • Actually, you make a good point. I should have mentioned that some professions have internships that can pay quite decently, engineering being one, and law being another. Actually, I'm considering going into law...can any lawyers on here comment on what kind of pay first year students can make doing a summer internship?
      • Now, this may seem like a kinda crappy deal

        It doesn't seem like a crappy deal, it IS a crappy deal. Asking people to work for free is flat out wrong. End of story.

    • When I was in college, internships for engineering and science students were real, paying jobs. I don't know of any company that will hire a college student for just the summer and not call it an internship.
  • I feel your pain, I was in the same frustrating position last summer, so try to forge away with an open source project or two, and if you/me get really lucky, Google will host the Summer of Code project again this next summer

    If all else fails, check job listing at school, you might be lucky enough to land a student worker position where you can do something besides reinstall windows on other students' machines

    Then again, if all else fails, nothing says you can't take some of those wicked hard math classes o
  • Frankly, the best way to get an internship is to have had previous internships. It's all about getting your foot in the door. I've been doing bioinformatics internships since I was in high school, and in order to get my current job on campus, all I had to do was tell them where I had previously worked and a sample of my research. They didn't even consider my grades. You just have to hack away, ask around, and above all, BE ASSERTIVE. Look up professors in your school's website that are doing research w
  • Your Perl, PHP, and Linux skills may be better assets in finding an internship than one year of C++. There are lots of "Hey, we need a web view for this, we need these scripts to be fixed, we need a system set up for testing" opportunities that comapnies would like to have done but don't want to pay someone big bucks to do. Enter the intern.

    A year of C++ from most schools leaves you in a position of being able to solve homework problems and do basic exercises, but it's a long way from being able to make m
    • Look for small companies, they might be VERY willing to pay a smallish salary to someone who can fix up their webpage or maintain their computers. These jobs are very easy to find, and there are lots of them. Just look around town and ask random local business owners, you'll probably find something.
    • I'll second that - I would not trust you with C++, but I would let you do a bit of HTML or other non critical web work (JSP, ASP, PHP all good). Another bonus was to know a little about CVS or the like - just checkout/checkin.
    • A year of C++ from most schools leaves you in a position of being able to solve homework problems and do basic exercises, but it's a long way from being able to make much headway in a significant software engineering situation. Which is a shame, because that's where the best learning takes place. If you can find an internship where you can work with experienced programmers on serious code go for it -- it's got the potential for being an incredibly valuable experience. But if you're only going to be a round
  • Are you active in your local ACM? If not, join in. There's probably a local Linux Users Group nearby you, find out their meeting times and begin attending. Ask your professors. Ask your guidance counselor. What are your nearby corporations? Are any of them large enough that they would probably have summer internships? Pick up the phone and find out.
    • Just a note on the societies issue: I don't know where you go to school, but at many schools there is an IEEE chapter. Join IEEE as a student member ($20/yr give or take, I don't remember exactly how much), and then you are automtically a member of your college chapter of IEEE. IEEE is usually a great way to network, and if your chapter is worth anything they will be bringing companies to talk and hire students on campus.

      Once you get to be an upperclassman, join HNK (Eta Kappa Nu) if they are on your campus
  • They exist but they're not easy to find. The larger companies are going to be looking for 3rd or 4th year students for internships, and the smaller companies won't immediately have projects available to you. So unfortunately (or fortunately) you're going to have to make a project pitch for them. More work, but more rewarding work as well. A lot of companies would be willing to hire a person for $10/hr if they knew what you could do for them, but YOU are the one that is going to have to let THEM know wha
  • Back when I was a strapping young lad, all it took to get an internship was dedication, hard work, enthusiasm, and a perceivable desire to learn your trade. And your father knowing a guy in HR.

    Nowadays, it seems that internships which used to be the proving grounds of new minds and places to get that critical initial real-world experience have joined the rest of the technical entry-level jobs: requiring 8 years of experience with references. And your father knowing a guy in HR.

    So, for the next two or thre
    • As someone who actively hires interns, a portfolio of work you've done is what sets you apart in my mind. Even if its homework that you are particularly proud of, it can make a difference. If you can network with someone not in HR, that's better than knowing someone in HR. HR can not get you a job, they can only prevent you from getting one, unless you are looking for a job in HR of course...

    • Likewise, if you're touting your awesome GTK mediaplayer on your resume, and googling you comes up with you begging for help on GTK, media, and playing comes up over the span of most of your project's life, thats not good either.

      So remember kids, always do your begging and Flamewars by way of a pseudonym. That way, your 'real' persona remains unsullied by such inconveniences. As a bonus, this will help you later in life when you get recruited by CTU and have to save the world while maintaining cover as a

  • From an Apple intern (Score:3, Insightful)

    by NetDrain ( 167337 ) <slashdot at theblight dot net> on Monday February 27, 2006 @06:53PM (#14812518) Homepage
    I've interned approximately 10 months for Apple computer (EE for the Mac Mini in 2004), and been on two recruiting events to my college during that time, taking resumés (but not doing any interviews). From the recruiting side you quickly find that everyone's resumé looks exactly the same as everyone else: you all have the same courses, projects, and skills in programming languages and the like.

    What I want to see is you telling me why I should hire you -- why should I push this resumé to the hiring manager with a "we've got to hire this kid." What makes you different? We all know you want to work for us -- you wouldn't have been in line giving me your resumé otherwise. If you give me the impression that you're not full-out gung-ho for the position, I'm not even going to consider you.

    I want to see things like what you do in your free time: do you have a life? But I don't want to see someone who only does extracurricular activities. Do you surf and play in a band, say, but also work on some really neat [EE/CS] projects at the same time? Can you balance school/fun/hobbies? Do you have personal drive and a spark of intelligence? If you're bright and driven, we can teach you anything you need to know. That's far more important than simply knowing many things. Tell me something cool you've done. Impress me. Make me want to see you come work for us.

    Even more interesting is being in the college at which you're recruiting: you can see everyone taking the same classes you've taken, doing the same projects and trying to pass it off as if it's unique. Hey, kid: I did that last quarter. In fact, you were in my section and goofed off half the time; or perhaps you're the guy who took the easy route on that project while I busted my ass doing it the hard way. I don't think so.

    Don't be disappointed if you don't get anything your first year: Many do not. Don't, however, waste your time. Do -something- related to your major and expected career. Make up some project for yourself and do it, and do it well. Work for free for a company as long as it's giving yourself some valuable experience. In other words, do -anything- to differentiate yourself in a positive light and make me remember you. I went through 60 resumés in 6 hours at one career fair, and I can't remember 2/3 of the people I talked to. The only ones I remember are those who made an impression.

    Good luck! I'll be at Google and http://www.pasemi.com/ [pasemi.com] this summer/fall (have to see more of the world before I graduate and pick a permanent career). Once you have experience in one job, the next come much, much easier.
  • I run a small software development team here in Southern California for Rapid7 [rapid7.com] and I have some experience with employing interns. The qualities I tend to look for (in order of importance):

    1) Work ethic and dependability. Someone who takes pride in his or her work.

    2) A genuine interest and love of computer science and programming (typically evidenced by non-school computer interests & programming projects that you have taken on). I don't hire people who are just interested in completing their school's

  • I work at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. From what I have seen, the summer internship program at The Lab is excellent. There are internships in variety of areas, including computer science, materials science and physics. In many cases there are interesting projects to work on and there is an opportunity to present your work at the end of the internship period. The daughter of a friend was an intern at The Lab last summer in materials science. They gave her access to the microfabrication facility

    • As far as government/quasi-government (FFRDCs) go: They're worth considering, but definitely beware of the fact that most of the application periods for anything requiring a security clearance will be August-October give or take. Also beware of the fact that you will almost inevitably have to put up with what may seem like B.S. bureaucracy, things will happen slowly, and that you will need to learn patience.

      With that said, consider applying (next year) to some of the following:
      Los Alamos National Labs (LANL
  • I'm not the only person in this boat. However I'm a 3rd year CS student with about 7 years summer-work experience. Doesn't make it any easier finding internships however.

    Expect to be very geographically limited, unless you have a super-spectacular resume you can fire at people. I'm looking for out of state internships (currently in Arkansas) and after a year in Japan I'm trying to find one in or near a large city.

    I applied online to Apple, however I doubt I'll hear anything from them (after all, I'm not fro
    • I'm looking for out of state internships (currently in Arkansas) and after a year in Japan I'm trying to find one in or near a large city.

      As important as the actual work is, I still suggest first visiting a work location if possible.

      Next locate an AM/FM radio (if you don't have a rental car). Then make sure the site has
      less than 10 country-western stations but more than two.

      You get a decent balance between urban/rural and North/South ... you avoid hellholes ...
      and it's at least as accurate as Places [amazon.com]

    • I assume you mean you sent email to college@apple.com with a subject line starting with "internship", per the instructions at the Apple Intern program web site, right?

      http://www.apple.com/jobs/intern/index.html [apple.com]

      I also asume you went looking for the campuses that Apple would be visiting to see if one was close enough for you to take a road trip and show up in person, to demonstrate that you were earnest about an Apple internship? Showing up at an even at a college or university that you don't personally atte
  • It is amazing the amount my employer places on GPA when looking for Co-Ops. Bottom line, GPA counts alot. If you don't have it... spend some time at some small software shops where they can't afford to hire the top GPAs.
  • Find out if there are any professors at your school who also work in your industry, then take their classes and make yourself known to them. This can open doors to internships and real jobs.

    Getting an internship after freshman year could be tough. I got one based on my connections and work from high school, but if you're starting now it may be too late. (I already hired my interns for this summer.) As other posters said, maybe start working on some personal projects that will make your resume stand out in l
  • I was in a somewhat similar situation to yours a year ago. What I ended up doing was putting my php skills to use in a startup for considerably less money than an adult php/mysql programmer, but more than most college kids, and with a much better job/work environment. If you only have a year of experience in C++, you probably can't really use that for much, but web programming generally allows for simpler applications.

    As other people in this thread have said, it's also worthwhile to have outside projects.
  • Try here [lanl.gov]. Way cool place to spend the summer. It looks like they even hire high school students for internships.
  • Having gotten an internship at my dream job, and stayed there ever since, I'd say you have more or less what it takes.

    1) Enough technical knowledge to actually do the job.
    2) Enough technical knowledge to know when to say "I don't know".
    3) One or two projects (either for school or independent, or both) that show the ability to do something interesting, complete it, and talk about what you did.
    4) A resume that focuses more on your projects (what you've done) then your class (what's been done to you).

    If you ha
  • If you can afford to, find a prof doing something interesting and volunteer to work for the summer. Not only do you get to [hopefully] work on something cool, but you get to know more about the department and who you might want to work with or take classes from [and who you want to avoid].

    I did this and it lead to [paid!] employment in a research-y position for the remaining summers of my undergrad and through my masters. This led directly to my first Real Job - and look at me now!

    I think, workwise, it wa
  • What do I need to bring to the table to be considered for even a menial position, these days?

    1. Five years of experience.
    2. A perfect employment history with no gaps of more than a weekend.
    3. Willingness to work 80 hour weeks perpetually
    4. WIllingness to work without benefits, overtime or vacation.
    5. Being a team player, which means "agree even when the team is wrong"
    6. Work for half pay.
    7. Work those 80 hour weeks as a temp
    8. Perfect credit
    9. No family (too many non-company obligations)
    10. Permarenter (so
  • Yes, freshman undergrads can get internships. You probably won't be at Google, but look around locally a bit (craigslist). There's a fair chance you could get hired by your school's IT department(s), or find a position at some small software dev shop in town. Big names are nice, but future employers know that any experience is better than none. And writing code is almost the same everywhere, so you'll develop real skill even if you don't have a big name behind you.

    Lastly, some companies receive non-prof
    • I agree with the parent. Try to find a job with the school's IT dept. Sometimes each college at the university will have its own IT group too. This is what I did (I graduated from LSU '05), and it was better for my job than actually getting my CS degree. Even if IT is not what you want to do, you may get to play with 'big toys' that you wouldn't otherwise. Then again, there's probably people here on /. that run Active Directory on their home network...

      Having real IT experience by the time i graduated hel
  • Companies understand that there will be a fair bit of training associated with all interns, and one of the best ways to get a position with a good company is to look for a co-op (like an internship, but lasts 6-9 months) instead. With a co-op, the company knows you'll have plenty of time to be trained and produce useful results. It'll still come in very handy later when you're looking for a summer internship or fulltime job to be able to say you've spent 8 or so solid months at a real job with real projects
  • Last year I was invoved in hiring two summer students (we paid our student employees, 50-100% more than any of their classmates) from a local college at the end of their second year. It was basically a disaster, we were not prepared, and other then getting a pay cheque the students had about 25-50% of their time that was useful or educational to them, and less than 25% of time was useful to us beyond the time it took to describe a task to them.

    How to stand out from a crowd of resumes? Be interesting to a ge
  • A number of private spaceflight firms which are periodically posted about on slashdot are looking for students to hire as summer interns, as well as full-time jobs. These companies are looking for folks with expertise in a variety of areas, from web design, to aerospace/mechanical engineering, to programming. Here's a few links (courtesy of RLV News [rlvnews.com]), with descriptions of what the company does:

    * SpaceX: [spacex.com] Orbital rockets which are drastically cheaper than the competition, with plans for building manned orbita
  • Now's a good time to evaluate your goals.

    If you want to pursue the "software life" ... that is, you want to go after the apple/microsoft/ibm/novell brass rings and be a career programmer, then you're on the right track ... hunt for programming internships, if you can't find them, hunt for programming jobs, and if you can't find them either then polish your skills by adopting a favorite open source project and working on it. Developing your abilities with real-world production code is definitely a plus, and
  • What do I need to bring to the table to be considered for even a menial position, these days?

    1. Flexiblity, so you can bend over backwards to kiss your boss's ass.
    2. Energy, so you can run errands for everyone else in the office.
    3. Kneepads, to worship management properly.
    4. Tough skin, so you can handle being a slave.

    Seriously, most companies see interns as slave labor with decent pay or benefits. Either look for a job or talk to people who interned at companies you're looking at so you know what you'

  • I personally am a second year CS student at the University of Utah, and my experience finding internships was incredibly positive. I managed to get an internship with a very successful software company in the midwest after my first interview. I also suspect that I would've had internship offers from two other smaller, local companies had I not already accepted this one.

    The best advice that I can give, and what worked for me, is to get your resume out early and often (it's already a little late for a lo

  • As somebody who interviews, selects, and supervises interns - the most important thing you can bring is attitude. You have to be ready to work, willing to work, and up for stretching to and beyond what you think the limits of your abilities are. You also can't consider physical work to be beneath you; especially in smaller organizations (like mine) sometimes everybody needs to help setup for a conference, move furniture, etc.

    You absolutely cannot be afraid to do things that are hard; doing things that are h
  • ... not much. The guy was an Industrial Engineering major (nothing wrong with that, mind you) with pretty much zero computer skills. We gave him this PHP project that a bunch of our interns had hacked on over the years (and me, when it gets truly FUBAR) and he just crossed his eyes the entire semester. They're bringing him back, though, so I figure if you can swap out backup tapes (the only thing he did successfully) you're hired.

    He also had the most amazing ability to completely awkward-up any conversation

  • Answer (Score:2)

    by mnmn ( 145599 )
    "What do I need to bring to the table to be considered for even a menial position, these days?"

    Jobsearching skills.

    And I'm really not kidding. Jobhunting skills weigh more than fixing-a-computer-through-knoppix-remastering skills. They do NOT teach you that in college (thank God).

  • As the head of IT for a nonprofit organization, I managed to hook up with a local college with an internship program. I've had one or more interns a year for about five years now. For one reason or another they've been willing to work for the experience. Since I can't afford to pay much (sometimes not at all), I try to get the interns projects in their areas of interest. It's been great to have them, there's always a lot more work than the time/manpower to do it. The interns get mentors who treat them like
  • I did intern interviews for a couple years at one of the largests companies in the US. Big companies are very popular for students. They usually pay very well for a relatively small ammount of work. Private companies are some of the best to get internships with because they are truely looking to make an investment in the next generation's work force. They don't have a bottom line to skimp on. They want to make a good impression because interns are often where college hires come from.

    That being said, yo
    • Do you generally look at where the college they came from is? Not to badmouth certain colleges, but a 4.0 at some colleges requires less work than a 2.8 at Georgia Tech.
      • It didn't matter to me. However, the majority of canidates come from colleges where said company does Job Fairs. The fairs are staffed by both professional HR selections people, and regular full time employees (usually alums). Face time and initial impressions is a big deal getting past that stage. We're not talking about local colleges and universities either, it's a national program. Non-local canidates are flown up to the HQ for interviews.
  • Contribute to an open source project. Theres plenty to do out there. It shows motivation, coding skills and the ability to understand complex systems. Also, many companies are looking for people to step in with experience working with certain code bases.
  • Hi there, sophomore CS major at some ritzy school here. This summer I'm working for a Silicon Valley startup where I plan to actually be useful. Last summer I worked as an intern on campus for a research group, so I have a bit of experience.

    Essentially, there are three things you can do:
    1. Spend the summer jobless and contribute to as many open source projects as possible. Treat it like a full time job, spend 8 hours a day coding/reading code. If you have enough discipline(I don't) you can get a lot done an
  • I'm a bit special because I had my first job in the computer business when I was 15 (as a low low level tech).. And I already had experience before starting university. But still, I landed my current job through a summer job. On a 4 yr program, I did 2 summer jobs and 1 internship (the only difference being that the internship gives me a credit and cost me 300$). You should ask for a salary, dont go too much under 13-15$/hr. Not asking enough looks bad (employers know good candidates are expensive). That sa
  • An ex-prof of mine who went back to industry while finishing up his PhD gave this speech. I personally consider him one of the best people to go to about practical life skills; he has extensive experience in industry. These notes are just some of the jot notes I wrote, and apply directly to getting noticed and in the door:

    Think about what you offer to an employer.

    Where in the market sector do you want a job?

    What makes you useful? You have to be a net contributor. Technology skills are a given; you need t
  • Los Alamos has a very robust summer internship program that is entirely focused on the student learning something new, rather than be oriented towards what the student can produce. www.lanl.gov/education [lanl.gov]

    I started there the summer after my freshman year, and I loved every moment of it. There's a reason why this summer is going to be my fourth one there.
  • I know this may be somewhat unpopular advice, but here's my limited experience. (Of course, the plural of anecdote is not data, so YMMV.)

    PEOPLE GET PEOPLE JOBS. Make connections. Network -- the social variety. And when all else fails, be ready to do a lot of legwork just like you were hunting for ordinary jobs -- lots of resumes, lots of time investment, and probably only a few interviews. So really, network network network. It's how the business world works. Remember, hiring you is a business decisi

  • Networking (Score:1)

    by zal ( 553 )
    If you actually want to do something useful ask around with your friends and co-students for your average small Company with the standard overworked IT Department. For someone who can actually cut it, theres no better place to earn some RL experience. The other Staff will basically have no Choice but to let you run with stuff, cause theres _no way_ they can find the Time to do it themselves.
    Again this shows the value of Networking, cause that is where the Opportunities are hidden.
    When i leave my current Job
  • You should probably get with your school's Career Services (or similar) office to start looking. They keep a listing of Internship Partnerships the school has with various organizations.

    If you're feeling social, you could always go around to the small businesses in the area and offer your services to develop a small piece of software for them in exchange for their gratitude and a little college credit.

    Then there are always the big guys: NASA, the national labs, large hospitals, etc. They always seem to b

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